Quote :

"The stimulus has helped grow gov't employment, while the private sector hasn't seen a monthly gain in the last 24 months."

One is far easier to grow than the other. Anyone that has any true knowledge, or even interest in the field of economics knows that a growth in private sector employment comes with a trust in the stability of the economy, that trust doesn't happen instantly. Even if what you believe was true and whatever you think the government should do happened and it benefited the economy, investment won't happen for quite a while afterwards, you would still see job losses, the job loss rate would just decline as the market stabilized.

2/7/2010 11:00:53 PM

^ And nothing imposes regime uncertainty like a government assuming day to day operations of a large chunk of the financial and industrial sectors. Not to mention the trillions in deficits promising higher taxes and employer healthcare costs now that Obama is president... That they never materialized was unknown at the time.

2/8/2010 9:47:23 AM

Quote :

"And nothing imposes regime uncertainty like a government assuming day to day operations of a large chunk of the financial and industrial sectors"

First off, that is completely irrelevant to what I was saying. My point was that growth would be slow regardless of the approach you took.

Secondly one of the countries that was the most stable during the recent depression, and really suffered the least was china, which could be accurately described as you did above.

2/8/2010 12:45:52 PM

What's that about recess appointments, Obama? They are bad? Oh wait... fuck

The more Obama does, the more he makes himself look exactly like Dubya.

2/10/2010 8:14:36 PM

^ ha are you kidding?

2/10/2010 11:31:31 PM

Quote :

" Feb. 10 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama said he doesn’t “begrudge” the $17 million bonus awarded to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Chief Executive Officer Jamie Dimon or the $9 million issued to Goldman Sachs Group Inc. CEO Lloyd Blankfein, noting that some athletes take home more pay. The president, speaking in an interview, said in response to a question that while $17 million is “an extraordinary amount of money” for Main Street, “there are some baseball players who are making more than that and don’t get to the World Series either, so I’m shocked by that as well.” “I know both those guys; they are very savvy businessmen,” Obama said in the interview yesterday in the Oval Office with Bloomberg BusinessWeek, which will appear on newsstands Friday. “I, like most of the American people, don’t begrudge people success or wealth. That is part of the free- market system.” "

Wait now..is this the same Obama who just last March said...

Quote :

"I do want to comment on the news about executive bonuses at AIG. This is a corporation that finds itself in financial distress due to recklessness and greed. It'd hard to understand how derivative traders at AIG warranted any bonuses. I've asked secretary Geithner to use that leverage and pursue every single legal avenue to block these bonuses and make the American taxpayers whole. "

Obama on the flip-flop

[Edited on February 11, 2010 at 2:06 AM. Reason : .]

2/11/2010 2:05:51 AM

yeah, he has a different opinion depending on the group he is talking to.

At noon he is going to cut the deficit. By 2pm he is proposing spending another 100B on green stuff or highway signs to create jobs.

2/11/2010 9:10:38 AM

Quote :

"Secondly one of the countries that was the most stable during the recent depression, and really suffered the least was china, which could be accurately described as you did above."

No it could not. China has always had direct political control over its financial system. It has not engaged in any behavior in this recession that it did not do before the recession. Hence, in China there is very little regime uncertainty. Which sectors of the economy are operating in the free enterprise system is obvious and well enforced by the courts. The same cannot be said for America, where even small parts manufacturers have found themselves under the government thumb, a position no one dreamed they could find themselves in, and this position has so far been allowed by the courts, even though it has never been allowed before. Hence, no one knows what the rules here in America are anymore, thus regime uncertainty.

2/11/2010 9:19:16 AM

Quote :

" Feb. 11 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama said he is “agnostic” about raising taxes on households making less than $250,000 as part of a broad effort to rein in the budget deficit. Obama, in a Feb. 9 Oval Office interview, said that a presidential commission on the budget needs to consider all options for reducing the deficit, including tax increases and cuts in spending on entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare."

Quote :

"FACT #1: The Obama Plan Provides Generous Tax Cuts for Almost All American Families – and will not raise any tax rate on families making less than $250,000 per year, period!"

2/11/2010 10:17:08 AM

^ haha

I remember both of you being upset that Obama was a "communist" that wanted to dictate salaries, or that he or that he hated rich people because he didn't want to tax people under 250k. Now that he's backed off that view, you attack him anyway?

That's very telling...

2/11/2010 10:26:46 AM

haha, is that how you see that in your head moron?

I think the fact that one of his MAJOR campaign promises of "look, if you make under 250k, you wont see one cent in new taxes" is probably going to be filed in the BS file like a lot of his other ones is pretty significant.

I can recall people saying your taxes will go up if he is elected, and all the dems on here defending what he SAID.. .but I guess that part of believing in hope and change.

2/11/2010 10:53:37 AM

2/11/2010 2:12:22 PM

lol at believing politicians' campaign lies

2/11/2010 2:25:20 PM

Quote :

"I can recall people saying your taxes will go up if he is elected, and all the dems on here defending what he SAID"

This is exactly what happened.

2/11/2010 2:29:54 PM

Quote :

"I think the fact that one of his MAJOR campaign promises of "look, if you make under 250k, you wont see one cent in new taxes" is probably going to be filed in the BS file like a lot of his other ones is pretty significant. I can recall people saying your taxes will go up if he is elected, and all the dems on here defending what he SAID.. .but I guess that part of believing in hope and change."

I'm not saying i wouldn't be pissed if he raised those taxes.

I'm saying that you and others have no room to criticize, because you supported raising those taxes. Obama is making this concession to try and appease your perspective, but you're making it obvious that you were never really against the policy, you're against the person.

2/11/2010 2:43:53 PM

Quote :

"you and others have no room to criticize, because you supported raising those taxes"

wut

2/11/2010 3:08:57 PM

Quote :

"^ ha are you kidding?"

absolutely not. He bitched and moaned about it when Dubya did a recess appointment, as did Joe Biden and Harry Reid. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, though, all of a sudden these things are perfectly OK.

2/11/2010 4:02:38 PM

Quote :

"I'm saying that you and others have no room to criticize, because you supported raising those taxes."

In a very real way, when the GOP supported an aggressive foreign policy and "tax cuts," they supported future tax increases, because they knew that the government would have a harder time paying the bills with less revenue coming in and more spending going out. To have thought that future tax increases were not in the cards was to be living in a bubble, isolated from the economic reality.

2/11/2010 4:06:06 PM

haha, Biden said that Iraq could be one of the "greatest achievements for this administration." hahaha, good work, man.

2/11/2010 4:19:14 PM

Quote :

" Obama Espoused Radical Views in College Monday, 08 Feb 2010 By: Ronald Kessler As a college student, Barack Obama expressed Marxist views, including the need for a new socialist U.S. government, according to a student who says he shared the future president’s opinion at the time. Such views by a college student may not be surprising. And like most students who hold radical views, Obama’s positions, at least publicly, have evolved substantially. However, this new window on Obama’s youth and early political thinking demonstrates how little is known about the background of America’s 44th president. Dr. John C. Drew, a grant writing consultant in Laguna Niguel, Calif., tells Newsmax he met Obama in 1980 when Obama was a sophomore at Occidental College in Los Angeles. Drew had just graduated from Occidental and was attending graduate school at Cornell University. Drew’s then girlfriend, Caroline Boss — now Grauman-Boss — knew Obama because she shared classes with him at Occidental. During Christmas break, Drew says he was at Grauman-Boss’ home in Palo Alto when Obama came over with Mohammed Hasan Chandoo, his roommate from Pakistan. “Barack and Hasan showed up at the house in a BMW, and then we went to a restaurant together,” Drew says. “We had a nice meal, and then we came back to the house and smoked cigarettes and drank and argued politics.” For the next several hours, they discussed Marxism. “He was arguing a straightforward Marxist-Leninist class-struggle point of view, which anticipated that there would be a revolution of the working class, led by revolutionaries, who would overthrow the capitalist system and institute a new socialist government that would redistribute the wealth,” says Drew, who says he himself was then a Marxist. “The idea was basically that wealthy people were exploiting others,” Drew says. “That this was the secret of their wealth, that they weren’t paying others enough for their work, and they were using and taking advantage of other people. He was convinced that a revolution would take place, and it would be a good thing.” Drew concluded that Obama thought of himself as “part of an intelligent, radical vanguard that was leading the way towards this revolution and towards this new society.”"

Obama's roommate Chandoo says he didn't recall Obama supporting any marxist theory that night..and the fact the Drew is now a conservative...leads one to take this story with a cynical eye.

But still interesting how Obama persists in hiding his past intellectual evidence.

http://newsmax.com/RonaldKessler/obama-college-marxism-occidental/2010/02/08/id/349329

2/15/2010 12:19:46 AM

WE NO THEY HAVE WMDS BECAUSE THEY WONT SAY THEY DONT HAVE WMDS!

2/15/2010 12:30:21 AM

2c worth of tax information

http://www.heritage.org/research/taxes/wm327.cfm

Historically tax cuts lead to increased government revenue (people spend it and the IRS gets it somewhere else.) Therefore the Bush administration was not setting the cards for future presidents to shoulder some incredible deficit - they were tryin' to get dat $

Or
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=676
Or
http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/reagtxct/reagtxct.htm

[Edited on February 15, 2010 at 1:56 AM. Reason : k]

2/15/2010 1:53:18 AM

Quote :

"Historically tax cuts lead to increased government revenue (people spend it and the IRS gets it somewhere else.) Therefore the Bush administration was not setting the cards for future presidents to shoulder some incredible deficit - they were tryin' to get dat $ "

This is not true.

The Heritage study was flawed. Historically, revenue will spike a little before a tax increase comes, and drop a little before a tax cut comes. After a tax cut, revenue is just as likely to take a downward trend as an upward trend.

Tax revenue is more strongly correlated with the overall health of the economy than the taxation rate, which is a more interesting observation than the disingenuous claims you linked to.

2/15/2010 9:29:47 AM

*posts heritage foundation study as credible and unbiased with a straight face*

2/15/2010 1:02:50 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/world/asia/16intel.html
Secret Joint Raid Captures Taliban’s Top Commander

2/15/2010 10:59:47 PM

I wonder how quickly they read him his miranda rights

2/15/2010 11:30:36 PM

because the Taliban's top military commander and "some random kid who got upset after posting on forums and then went on an airplane and lit his underwear on fire" are equivalent positions and should be treated as such.

2/16/2010 9:20:47 AM

It's being called the second-most important capture since 9-11, and it's below the fold on the Drudge Report.

Surprise!

2/16/2010 10:30:56 AM

well fuck me

thanks for pointing that out, I'll stop using Drudge Report for my unbiased news sources now

2/16/2010 1:38:41 PM

i thought obama was against wars and hatred against humanity. he should let these people go free. hasn't he seen avatar yet???

2/16/2010 1:41:14 PM

Maybe they can get Matlock to defend him during for his trial.

2/16/2010 5:33:00 PM

All this is hilarious since none of you fuckers complained when Saddam Hussein was given a criminal trial.

And even his trial was a fucking kangaroo court.

2/16/2010 10:37:17 PM

Quote :

" China has always had direct political control over its financial system. It has not engaged in any behavior in this recession that it did not do before the recession. Hence, in China there is very little regime uncertainty. Which sectors of the economy are operating in the free enterprise system is obvious and well enforced by the courts."

First off, you're backpedaling. Your original statement was "nothing imposes regime uncertainty like a government assuming day to day operations of a large chunk of the financial and industrial sectors". Your new statement that china does not have regime uncertainty directly disproves your earlier statement that "a government assuming day to day operations of a large chunk of the financial and industrial sectors" would cause regime uncertainty. But I'll assume you're done arguing yourself and continue with what you're currently arguing.

Secondly China is the complete opposite of what you are describing, China nationalizes anything it feels like it, for example it has nationalized insurance companies when their owners act unethically. To put it very simply, America is far less likely to interfere in markets than China.

2/17/2010 12:12:57 AM

Post hoc, but what else do we have to go on?

2/17/2010 5:10:33 PM

Assuming the economy is improving...how do you prove that the stimulus had anything to do with it?

Perhaps the economy is improving despite all of the gov't interference.

2/17/2010 10:50:34 PM

He admitted that it was post hoc, obviously you don't know what that means.

2/17/2010 11:56:08 PM

^^ haha, nice backpedaling there... what we DO know at this point is that EarthDogg was wrong, and Obama was right:

Quote :

"And, of course, if the gears of the economy fail to get moving again after all the stimulus spending..it won't be Obama's fault. He just under-estimated Bush's evil-ness. He was just trying to help the best way he knew how..with socialism. "

- EarthDogg, 6/8/2009

and that was just 30 seconds of looking for ridiculous predictions by you. I can keep going with quotes like that if you don't want to eat your words on this.

So, most economic metrics have gotten better, in accordance with the claims of Obama and the democrats, while literally none of the doom and gloom predicted by EarthDogg and his ilk have come true. Even if it wasnt the stimulus, why should anyone listen to your bitter, partisan ranting when you are so badly wrong on how dumping nearly a trillion $$$ into the economy would work?

2/18/2010 12:17:38 AM

^The stimulus did not work. It's like putting a bandage on a bullet wound, it may buy you some time, but thats about it. Just wait until next year, state/local job cuts all over the country will be laid down so hard, you won't know what hit us. That is unless we get, stimulus part 100. A lot of jobs were just "saved" for a year. That money is going to be dried up. Who is going to pay for those jobs next year? Thats right, no one. They will be gone. And there will be a ripple effect. Double bottom here we come.

2/18/2010 1:42:43 AM

We may want to hold off the celebration for a while....

Quote :

"NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) 2/18/10 -- The number of Americans filing first-time claims for unemployment insurance climbed unexpectedly last week. There were 473,000 initial jobless claims filed in the week ended Feb. 13, up 31,000 from the previous week's upwardly revised 442,000, the Labor Department said on Thursday."

Quote :

"eat your words on this."

I still stand by those words. The point of the statement you quoted Moron is that I think Obama will always offer up excuses why his policies aren't helping. He is not good at accepting blame.

Quote :

"you are so badly wrong on how dumping nearly a trillion $$$ into the economy would work?"

The stimulus is not popular with the voters. Obama is in the unenviable position of having to tell the voters that they are wrong and he is right.

Quote :

"The White House hoped that once Americans in their towns and cities saw the results of the stimulus, they would realize it has helped. Obama has much work to do to convince Americans who are still struggling to find work amid a 9.7 percent jobless rate. A CBS News/New York Times poll last week found that only 6 percent of Americans believed the package had created jobs. Another poll by CNN/Opinion Research Corporation showed a majority opposed the stimulus program. And the price tag of the stimulus has gone up. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that when all is said and done, the package will end up costing $862 billion because unemployment compensation has been costlier than expected. "In the first year of the trillion-dollar stimulus, Americans have lost millions of jobs, the unemployment rate continues to hover near 10 percent, the deficit continues to soar and we're inundated with stories of waste, fraud and abuse," said Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61G38U20100218?type=GCA-Economy2010

2/18/2010 10:24:52 AM

Quote :

"I still stand by those words. The point of the statement you quoted Moron is that I think Obama will always offer up excuses why his policies aren't helping. He is not good at accepting blame. "

You’re the only one offering up excuses about why your predictions haven’t come true.

Obama gives "strong support" to Dalai Lama
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hJ3Bno-u9F5aSPm0e4tOH_AcaZBQD9DUO2QG0

2/18/2010 1:37:38 PM

Yep. Stimulus worked so well that the US only lost a net of 3 million jobs since it passed. Obama said it would CREATE 3.3 million. So Obama was wrong by a net job count of 6.3 million. Way to be credible.

2/18/2010 5:14:48 PM

Quote :

"The stimulus did not work. It's like putting a bandage on a bullet wound"

That's a bit contradictory. "The stimulus did not do anything. The stimulus did not do enough."

Quote :

"Yep. Stimulus worked so well that the US only lost a net of 3 million jobs since it passed. Obama said it would CREATE 3.3 million. So Obama was wrong by a net job count of 6.3 million. Way to be credible."

The gap between projected and actual job growth certainly affects Obama's economists' credibility. It doesn't have an impact on whether the stimulus package had a net positive effect, though.



I can't help but feel that right-wing critiques of the stimulus aren't entirely thoughtful. "The economy's still bad derp derp derp. Therefore the stimulus package has failed derp derp derp."

Quote :

"Perhaps the best-known economic research firms are IHS Global Insight, Macroeconomic Advisers and Moody’s Economy.com. They all estimate that the bill has added 1.6 million to 1.8 million jobs so far and that its ultimate impact will be roughly 2.5 million jobs. The Congressional Budget Office, an independent agency, considers these estimates to be conservative."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/business/economy/17leonhardt.html


Just a cursory glance at http://www.recovery.gov will reveal that the stimulus package is accomplishing something.

2/18/2010 5:29:47 PM

2/18/2010 5:31:57 PM

public option is back...through reconcilation, screw the GOP (who has used this method before btw)

2/18/2010 5:43:28 PM

Quote :

"I still stand by those words. The point of the statement you quoted Moron is that I think Obama will always offer up excuses why his policies aren't helping. He is not good at accepting blame."

you use the same type of excuses to discount any good things that happen.

Quote :

"The stimulus is not popular with the voters"

STOP THE PRESSES! WHOA YOURE SAYING THAT PEOPLE DONT LIKE TO PAY MONEY!? WELL IM SURE THIS IS NEWS TO EVERYONE.

Quote :

"Stimulus worked so well that the US only lost a net of 3 million jobs since it passed. Obama said it would CREATE 3.3 million. So Obama was wrong by a net job count of 6.3 million. Way to be credible"

Who's to say it didn't create 3.3 million jobs? Perhaps the total amount of jobs we would have lost is 6 million and Obama was able to half that.

2/18/2010 5:46:06 PM

^^You think I trust http://www.recovery.gov after the whole stimulus spending in congressional districts that don't exist fiasco. recovery.gov lost its credibility a long time ago. Mine and many other peoples reason for not supporting the stimulus wasn't that it wouldnt create jobs. If you give a monkey 800 billion dollars, even he could create a few jobs with it. Even going with the most optimistic estimate of 2.5 million jobs created eventually, that is $320000 PER job. That does not seem very efficient to me, not to mention the effect that this spending will have on the economy for years and decades to come. Not credible.

2/18/2010 5:48:30 PM

Quote :

"that is $320000 PER job"

And if you were to ignore two key facts:

1. We are buying much more than labor with the stimulus money
2. Only a third of the money's been spent, so dividing net jobs by total eventual cost of the stimulus is stupid

... you might have a point.

2/18/2010 5:57:48 PM

short term job gain isn't all the stimulus money was designed to do, now that would be a waste of money

2/18/2010 5:59:03 PM

^^Right, but one of the main passing points of the stimulus was to create jobs. And also, we have spent 1/3 stimulus to create ONLY 5xx,xxx jobs, even by recovery.gov standards. So my math is even a little generous in favor of the stimulus. Still not credible.

2/18/2010 6:11:00 PM

Quote :

"And also, we have spent 1/3 stimulus to create ONLY 5xx,xxx jobs"

That's a fairly telling post.

In the past couple posts, I've cited very credible sources claiming 1.6 million jobs, 1.8 million jobs, and 2.5 million jobs.

Instead, you choose the lowest number you can find, from a site that according to you, "lost its credibility a long time ago."

And P.S. the number you cited was jobs gained from October 1 - December 31, 2009 only.

2/18/2010 6:20:51 PM