blame fowler for the schedule

this current team would struggle under herb too.

1/6/2009 1:40:32 AM

Quote :

"this current team would struggle under herb too."

1/6/2009 1:41:40 AM

why the fuck do you expect us to make the ncaas?

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 1:52 AM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 1:51:27 AM

Is that directed towards me?

I didn't expect us to this year. I knew we would be terrible. I predicted a 16-16 (5-11) season before it started in one of these threads. That is not the point. EVERY ACC team should have a goal of trying to make the tournament regardless if they are up or down that year.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 1:57 AM. Reason : We don't even have a chance even if we play well in ACC play is my point]

1/6/2009 1:55:16 AM

but all this hostility towards lowe over something that isn't reasonably attainable?

that's what i don't get

1/6/2009 1:57:27 AM

Umm this is year 3 and we have yet to see improvement. We are getting worse. The previous coach left him enough talent to compete if you argue that, you are an idiot. It is not unreasonable to expect some results you know.

Next year we will probably be even worse if we lose Costner in addition to Fells and McCauley and Harris. The only player on the team next year that will not be Lowe's recruit will be Ferguson unless you count Horner. So next year there is absolutely no blame on anyone but himself.

Some of you bitched when Herb would have 20 win seasons and go 9-7 in the ACC and now you are ok with us being in the bottom of the ACC. I don't get that at all. Why does Lowe get a pass from you?

1/6/2009 2:07:40 AM

Quote :

"Why does Lowe get a pass from you?"

Personally speaking, because of ...

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=herb+sendek+passion&btnG=Search+Images

vs.

http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=sidney+lowe+passion&btnG=Search+Images

1/6/2009 2:17:21 AM

it's not impossible, we went 18-13 in the 2002-2003 season with a 9-7 conference record and still made the ncaa tournament.

here's what our ooc was


2003/02/15 Temple 76 NC State 54
2003/01/02 UMass 68 NC State 56
2002/12/29 NC State 86 Wofford 71
2002/12/21 NC State 104 Fairleigh Dickinson 65
2002/12/17 Gonzaga 69 NC State 60
2002/12/14 NC State 101 North Carolina A&T 63
2002/12/08 NC State 76 South Carolina 64
2002/12/04 NC State 74 Northwestern 49
2002/11/30 NC State 58 Coppin State 37
2002/11/22 NC State 84 Mount St. Mary's 60

there you go, 9-3 also and losing to Temple, UMass, and Gonzaga

1/6/2009 2:18:08 AM

goddammit, someone fucking post the lowe train

fuck this place

1/6/2009 2:38:57 AM

Quote :

"Some of you bitched when Herb would have 20 win seasons and go 9-7 in the ACC and now you are ok with us being in the bottom of the ACC. I don't get that at all. Why does Lowe get a pass from you?"

When will the Herb talk end? He's gone, get over it. Sid is now the coach. We gave Herb 10 years and I actually appreciate what he did. And unless you don't realize it, HE LEFT US. And if you think he left us with tons of talent, how come we're not doing so well? 3 seniors graduated and 4 recruits never showed up to school. Sid had to take a step backwards when he got here just to field a team. Degand, Ferguson, Bartosz, Javi were all taken out of need. He's landed Hickson and has a great class coming in with actual guards that can play at the ACC level. We owe it to him to see what he can do with those guys before we give him the axe.

1/6/2009 7:51:43 AM

^^^That 2002-2003 ooc schedule is interesting. 9-3, 3 losses to decent teams by a combined score of 43 points!! Looks like we got blown out a few times.

Who was our coach in 2002-2003? How long had he been there? Shouldn't we have done better than that?

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 9:29 AM. Reason : ]

1/6/2009 9:28:00 AM

man that Temple game was so bad

that one and the St. John's game are the ones that jump out to me as really really bad OOC games we've had in the last few years

oh and of course that ass whipping we got at Michigan St.

1/6/2009 9:31:12 AM

Can we please fire Sidney Lowe?

- Lets get someone who doesnt suck

1/6/2009 9:40:22 AM

calling for Sid's head at this point is just plain silly. In Herb's first 5 years we had zero NCAA appearances, had a losing record in season 5, and our teams looked TERRIBLE in many games. honestly, this year's team looks at least as good as any team Herb had that didn't incude Julius Hodge - remember that blowout loss at home to Seton Hall in '06?? or that embarassment to UMass in '03? Not saying I'm expecting an NCAA appearance, but wouldn't be surprised if we got there...

1/6/2009 9:40:25 AM

Quote :

"Not saying I'm expecting an NCAA appearance, but wouldn't be surprised if we got there..."

I would be EXTREMELY surprised, and would consider it a small miracle.

1/6/2009 9:48:46 AM

^Ok, fair enough. So quit freaking-out.

Expect the best, accept the worst.

It is what it is.

This is the hand we've been dealt.

Your bitching doesn't help anything.


[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 9:52 AM. Reason : ]

1/6/2009 9:50:36 AM

Quote :

"calling for Sid's head comparing our program now to what it was when Herb took over at this point is just plain silly."

I don't think he should be fired but we aren't looking for Herb Sendek II.

He took us to a level and plateau'ed and we should have a coach that can take us to the next one... there's nothing wrong with having higher expectations. Nobody in here expected a Final Four from us this year, but we expected IMPROVEMENT or at least a program that looks headed in the direction of the next level.

We better not finish last in the conference again because I don't care who you are, you can't be satisfied with two consecutive dead-last finishes in the ACC at NC State, no matter who the coach is, regardless of how many years he's been here. With that said, I'm definitely going to wait until the end of this season to be critical of Lowe.

1/6/2009 9:55:00 AM

^ agreed, finishing last again would be unacceptable.

1/6/2009 10:07:57 AM

hey spoon!

1/6/2009 10:15:27 AM

^ miss you gunzz! what up with all the haters on TWW these days?

1/6/2009 10:18:35 AM

I'm not bitching or freaking out, I'm just posting on the internet holmes.

1/6/2009 10:33:37 AM

this thread is repeating over and over

1/6/2009 10:35:29 AM

http://getlowe.ytmnd.com/

1/6/2009 10:41:58 AM

Quote :

"We better not finish last in the conference again because I don't care who you are, you can't be satisfied with two consecutive dead-last finishes in the ACC at NC State..."

Lee Fowler would like a word with you.

1/6/2009 10:47:27 AM

[obligatory I love Sid as our coach]

1/6/2009 10:54:58 AM

I find all of this funny. Basically, we are 3 or 4 shots on the season spread across 3 games from being undefeated. Just a few plays here or there and everyone would be singing the praises of our undefeated team that would be ranked in the top 20. Having said that, we would still be a bad team that got lucky and would still get owned in the acc and miss the tourney.

1/6/2009 11:37:34 AM

Yea well

We were 3-4 shots a couple of games the last few years of Herb from being #1 in the ACC and from making the elite 8.

Letting opponents comeback in the last five minutes of a game were trade mark herb criticisms.

1/6/2009 12:32:17 PM

[obligatory I love Sid as our coach]

1/6/2009 12:35:44 PM

Quote :

"And if you think he left us with tons of talent, how come we're not doing so well? 3 seniors graduated and 4 recruits never showed up to school."

Do you really want me to answer that?

I am sorry Herb left Sidney with a 5* McDs AA and 2 4* top 100 recruits that tons of schools were after.

Quote :

"honestly, this year's team looks at least as good as any team Herb had that didn't incude Julius Hodge - remember that blowout loss at home to Seton Hall in '06?? or that embarassment to UMass in '03? Not saying I'm expecting an NCAA appearance, but wouldn't be surprised if we got there..."

Herb's last season the team went 22-10 and 10-6 and finished 4th in a decently strong ACC. That bad loss to Seton Hall makes the season? BTW they made the second round of the NCAAs that year under Louis Orr. They weren't exactly Loyola. If you really think this year's team and that 2005-06 team are comparable then you are delusional. I also think that team struggled towards the end of the season because they knew Herb was going to leave but we still beat a good Cal team in the NCAAs.

1/6/2009 12:51:00 PM

Quote :

"That bad loss to Seton Hall makes the season?"

No, just as 3 close losses to good teams this early in the season shouldn't make this season.

1/6/2009 1:01:12 PM

Fair enough but our schedule has been terrible. There is no denying that. That year we played several good OOC games. I guess what grinds my gears is that even if do go 9-7 in ACC we don't even go to the NCAA tournament.

FWIW I am not comparing Sidney to Herb at all in this thread.....usually I just defend Herb when someone says something really stupid. I look at what Sid is doing and I haven't seen enough to make me think he will ever work out.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 1:08 PM. Reason : V Smart ass]

1/6/2009 1:03:37 PM

Quote :

"I am not comparing Sidney to Lowe at all in this thread"

His first name is on notice, but his last one can't really be blamed for mistakes this year.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 1:10 PM. Reason : ^I know what you meant, but it was funny.]

1/6/2009 1:07:07 PM

Quote :

"I am sorry Herb left Sidney with a 5* McDs AA and 2 4* top 100 recruits that tons of schools were after."

don't forget bryan nieman

1/6/2009 3:48:33 PM

and you keep saying loyola

fuck loyola.

Herb had some questionable close calls too. We beat loyola so shut up about it already. If we use transitive properties in sports, duke WOULD beat us by 40, but we don't, so move on

You have every right to complain if we lose to someone shitty, but right now your only argument is us losing to 3 top 25 programs. Yes, we know our schedule is bad, so dont use that as your counter argument again.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 4:17 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 4:16:25 PM

packboozie, my point was that every year under Herb we had some God-awful OOC showings. So a few close loses this year (even in the absence of a huge win) shouldn't send people clamoring for Sid's head. I totally agree that Herb's ACC performance his last few years was good - I'm not hating on Herb, just saying that it's WAY too early this season to throw in the towel and predict we'll finish in the bottm of the conference...

1/6/2009 6:15:57 PM

Quote :

"but right now your only argument is us losing to 3 top 25 programs"

Florida and Davidson are not top 25 programs albeit IIRC Davidson was in the rankings when we played them.

1/6/2009 6:19:07 PM

ok, plz to troll me on something trivial, since trolling is your main source of posts.

Davidson WAS ranked when we played them
Marquette IS ranked

and Florida is 12-2 with losses to syracuse and florida st. and probably should be ranked given their hot start

Point remains that we havent lost to loyola or any WTF teams that would cause you guys to be whining as much as you are

If we are 4-12, I will sit back and not say a word

1/6/2009 7:29:16 PM

^ no I corrected you for declaring an incorrect fact, it isn't trolling. Maybe I could just say that NC State is 3-9 then and it can be trivial.

1/6/2009 7:51:41 PM

^this guy sucks.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 7:57 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 7:57:19 PM

why do I suck? for pointing out that we have not played 3 top 25 teams? Sorry to inconvenience you with facts. And then have you tell me that I'm trolling for correcting you? who is trolling who here?

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 8:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 8:04:41 PM

its not even that

i dont mind being corrected. Florida is still a good team and a good OOC test

You just swing from my nuts on a consistent basis and often times what you say is ignorant as fuck

1/6/2009 8:07:47 PM

sorry to have upset you, but we have not played 3 top 25 teams. Sorry I've had to correct you on several occasions, one would think you would just shut the fuck up already.

also, please let me know what I've said to you that is "ignorant as fuck"

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 8:09 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 8:09:13 PM

haha, you talk like you are a fucking walking wikipedia.

Most of the time you just post ignorant shit to troll people.

You dont correct me on shit because I usually look up my facts before i post.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 8:13 PM. Reason : ,]

1/6/2009 8:11:17 PM

i knew you would be the first one to respond, I bet your hands were trembling as you typed your response in the need to save your "e-reputation" of basketball when the fact stands you are a stupid ass fuck who doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about.

I'm done responding to you, or as you call it, trolling you. I'd rather have an INTELLIGENT discussion with people who are knowledgeable about what the fuck they are talking about. So long, asshole.

1/6/2009 8:26:51 PM

wouldnt happen to do with the fact that I post and browse on the other boards and not just ST?

If you are gonna troll, try harder next time

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 8:31 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 8:31:39 PM

ohboyeeee whats your deal??? come on guy

we have lost to three very capable top 25 teams, if you dont realize that then you dont know basketball

if you DO realize that, yet are calling erice out because they are not LITERALLY all top 25 teams

then you are a TROLL, or to not jump a permanent gun, you are TROLLING

lets all grow up here

1/6/2009 8:37:45 PM

right we lost to 3 good teams, by a combined 10 points or whatever (winnable games), but in each of those situations Sidney got out coached by the opposing coach. You can expect more of the same when we are playing the ACC schedule and not High Point.

And we did not lose to 3 top 25 teams, sorry but it just isn't the case. Maybe you should start making the NCAABB rankings if you are so knowlegeable.

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 8:42 PM. Reason : .]

1/6/2009 8:41:09 PM

^agreed, now thats a 'carry-onable' post for lack of a better word

sid does need some closing tactics, or plays, or ways to get it to whomever can compete under fire

1/6/2009 8:43:54 PM

i honestly think we should start suspending sports trolls.

they actually have the potential to do harm to our program.

take that shit to the soap box ohboyee.

1/6/2009 8:47:48 PM

This thread is running in circles... time for a reset...

First and foremost - anyone here is free to claim that:

A) State would've been better off had they kept Sendek,
B) State fans didn't give Herb nearly as much leeway as they have to Lowe, or
C) Lowe was the wrong choice for head coach.

I understand those sentiments and agree they have merit. But to me, those claims are good only for idle speculation. Nothing we say is going to bring Sendek back, or get the bulk of State fans to evaluate Lowe in even a modestly objective manner, or get Fowler 'n Co. to retroactively hire someone else. The real question is this: Is Lowe the person to be State's bball coach? Let's try to stay on topic.

Secondly, This "Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare" nonsense really has to stop...

Seriously... does anyone remember the '06-'07 season? State had a 6-man rotation that years, which consisted of Grant, Fells, Costner, McCauley, Atsur, and Horner/Ferguson/Niemen. Grant and McCauley were solid players, but not dominant All-ACC calibur-type players. Fells and Costner were/are incredibly talented, but were/are equally inconsistent. Fells has always lacked the attitude/desire/whatever, and Costner has proven on many occasions to be a major head-case. Then there's Atsur, who was injured for better than half the year. When you consider the fact that he was State's best PG, especially since his natural position was SG, that REALLY says something about your depth in the backcourt.

To me, all you have to say is that, beyond the starting 5, State's bench consisted of Horner, Ferguson, Niemen, and at least one of them was playing at all times when Atsur was out.... usually with Gavin Grant running the point. End of discussion.

Now, for all the griping about "bad coaching," I think most of us can agree that Lowe's biggest problem in the backcourt has been is inability to recruit ACC-calibur guards. In modern college bball, it all starts with your PG. Now consider that the recruitment process, particularly for talented PGs, can start as early as sophomore, even freshmen year of high school. When you add it all up, Lowe had no chance at landing a decent PG in the 2006 and almost no chance to do so in 2007. This is something that I think has gotten lost in the debate about State's backcourt play under Lowe.

Now, let's look at the progression of Lowe's backcourt recruitment:

2006 - N/A

2007 - Gonzalez, Johnson, J. Thomas, Degand - No ACC calibur PGs/SGs, at best all but Johnson could develop into decent role players and backups. Grade - D

2008 - Mays - Higher ceiling than any of the guards in the '07 class, potentially an ACC-calibur guard, likely a solid contributer over the next 4 years. Grade - C (more depth/quality or both was needed)

2009 - Lorenzo Brown, Scott Wood - Both have a high ceiling and will likely be big contributers to the program. Brown will likely to be Lowe's 1st ACC-calibur PG and could potentially be a 4-year starter at State. Wood could be Lowe's 1st true sharpshooter and 3-pt threat at the 2G, something that has been lacking during Lowe's brief tenure. Grade - A+

*2009 recruit - John Wall - Lowe has State in the top 3 vying for the best PG in the 2009 class. Landing Wall would be huge, period.

2010 - Ryan Harrow - A solid all-around player, his stock continues a steady rise since committing to the Pack. Adding Harrow would give Lowe another solid option at PG for the long haul. Grade - A- (good start with Harrow, more depth is needed)


This should be comforting for all those who find themselves coming back to the issue of "progress." Lowe got off to a rough start, but clearly he has picked it up with each successive recruiting class. Additionally, Lowe has State in the thick of it with Wall, who resides in State's backyard and is THE recruit as far as PGs go for 2009. While on the surface progress is hard to see, I think it nevertheless is there.

Kep point - Progress often comes with a delay. Lowe is paying for mistakes made on the recruiting trail years ago, when he didn't land any solid PGs. State doesn't have the horses this year, and no amount of brilliant coaching will change that. True it is his fault, but it's important to recogize that past mistakes, not current ones, are the root cause. Lowe clearly has addressed this problem, as seen in his incoming recruiting class, but that isn't going to help him now.

In Division 1 bball, you simply can't coach your way out of bad personel, especially in the ACC. Just ask Coach K and Duke, which simply couldn't get around the fact that they didn't have enough size in the post to compete at the high level they're accustomed to. All of the sudden fans are questioning Coach K's coaching ability, which to me is patently absurd. Love him or hate him, Coach K is among, if not THE best X's and O's coach in the NCAA. Trust me, he didn't forget how to coach. He did however screw himself over when he got caught coaching a team who's best post presence ended up being Kyle Singler.

A similar situation is going on with O'Brien and the football team. Some might look at TOB's 5-7 and 6-7 records and say "How is that progress from the Amato-era?" That of course would ignore the subtle but very important improvements TOB has made to the team, such as the host of redshirted freshmen O-linemen will substantially upgrade a major weakness. Then there's the QB position, at which State now has not one but TWO solid options. Then you ahve consider the abhorrent number of injuries to key players over the past 2 years, and the impact it had on State's record as a result. The list goes on.

Bottom line is that State is poised to make a leap next year, a leap that was getting very little publicity midway through the season last year when the Pack was 2-6. In turn, I call on anyone criticizing Lowe on the basis of "progress" to carefully consider the criteria for their evaluation.

And FTR, it's no secret that State's recent lack of success overall in major sports is what's really fueling the fire. Some criticism of Lowe has been objective, but much of it amounts to little more than frustrated venting by passionate fans. Despite the negative aspects of it, this same passion is why I'm proud to be a State fan. We are State fans. We bitch, complain, and use a LOT foul language. But we always show up, we always are there to watch our team, cheer them on, boo the shit out of the refs and opposing teams/coaches/fans/etc, and yes crowd message boards, radio station call-in shows, and every bar across the country to complain about why we lost or why we didn't win by enough.

I guess in the end I'm choosing to look at thee glass half full. I believe Lowe has made some mistakes, but that he's learned from them and that progress has resulted from it. It's just that State won't start reaping the benefits of this progress until next year at least. And hey, considering how long I and other Wolfpack fans have waited for this program to turn itself back around, I think I can find a way to survive until next season. I can do that, b/c I'm optimstic about seeing what Lowe can do with the right players to work with...





[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 9:18 PM. Reason : Good gawd that was a mammoth fucking post ]

1/6/2009 9:15:04 PM