Quote :

"This thread is running in circles... time for a reset... First and foremost - anyone here is free to claim that: A) State would've been better off had they kept Sendek, B) State fans didn't give Herb nearly as much leeway as they have to Lowe, or C) Lowe was the wrong choice for head coach. I understand those sentiments and agree they have merit. But to me, those claims are good only for idle speculation. Nothing we say is going to bring Sendek back, or get the bulk of State fans to evaluate Lowe in even a modestly objective manner, or get Fowler 'n Co. to retroactively hire someone else. The real question is this: Is Lowe the person to be State's bball coach? Let's try to stay on topic. Secondly, This "Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare" nonsense really has to stop... Seriously... does anyone remember the '06-'07 season? State had a 6-man rotation that years, which consisted of Grant, Fells, Costner, McCauley, Atsur, and Horner/Ferguson/Niemen. Grant and McCauley were solid players, but not dominant All-ACC calibur-type players. Fells and Costner were/are incredibly talented, but were/are equally inconsistent. Fells has always lacked the attitude/desire/whatever, and Costner has proven on many occasions to be a major head-case. Then there's Atsur, who was injured for better than half the year. When you consider the fact that he was State's best PG, especially since his natural position was SG, that REALLY says something about your depth in the backcourt. To me, all you have to say is that, beyond the starting 5, State's bench consisted of Horner, Ferguson, Niemen, and at least one of them was playing at all times when Atsur was out.... usually with Gavin Grant running the point. End of discussion. Now, for all the griping about "bad coaching," I think most of us can agree that Lowe's biggest problem in the backcourt has been is inability to recruit ACC-calibur guards. In modern college bball, it all starts with your PG. Now consider that the recruitment process, particularly for talented PGs, can start as early as sophomore, even freshmen year of high school. When you add it all up, Lowe had no chance at landing a decent PG in the 2006 and almost no chance to do so in 2007. This is something that I think has gotten lost in the debate about State's backcourt play under Lowe. Now, let's look at the progression of Lowe's backcourt recruitment: 2006 - N/A 2007 - Gonzalez, Johnson, J. Thomas, Degand - No ACC calibur PGs/SGs, at best all but Johnson could develop into decent role players and backups. Grade - D 2008 - Mays - Higher ceiling than any of the guards in the '07 class, potentially an ACC-calibur guard, likely a solid contributer over the next 4 years. Grade - C (more depth/quality or both was needed) 2009 - Lorenzo Brown, Scott Wood - Both have a high ceiling and will likely be big contributers to the program. Brown will likely to be Lowe's 1st ACC-calibur PG and could potentially be a 4-year starter at State. Wood could be Lowe's 1st true sharpshooter and 3-pt threat at the 2G, something that has been lacking during Lowe's brief tenure. Grade - A+ *2009 recruit - John Wall - Lowe has State in the top 3 vying for the best PG in the 2009 class. Landing Wall would be huge, period. 2010 - Ryan Harrow - A solid all-around player, his stock continues a steady rise since committing to the Pack. Adding Harrow would give Lowe another solid option at PG for the long haul. Grade - A- (good start with Harrow, more depth is needed) This should be comforting for all those who find themselves coming back to the issue of "progress." Lowe got off to a rough start, but clearly he has picked it up with each successive recruiting class. Additionally, Lowe has State in the thick of it with Wall, who resides in State's backyard and is THE recruit as far as PGs go for 2009. While on the surface progress is hard to see, I think it nevertheless is there. Kep point - Progress often comes with a delay. Lowe is paying for mistakes made on the recruiting trail years ago, when he didn't land any solid PGs. State doesn't have the horses this year, and no amount of brilliant coaching will change that. True it is his fault, but it's important to recogize that past mistakes, not current ones, are the root cause. Lowe clearly has addressed this problem, as seen in his incoming recruiting class, but that isn't going to help him now. In Division 1 bball, you simply can't coach your way out of bad personel, especially in the ACC. Just ask Coach K and Duke, which simply couldn't get around the fact that they didn't have enough size in the post to compete at the high level they're accustomed to. All of the sudden fans are questioning Coach K's coaching ability, which to me is patently absurd. Love him or hate him, Coach K is among, if not THE best X's and O's coach in the NCAA. Trust me, he didn't forget how to coach. He did however screw himself over when he got caught coaching a team who's best post presence ended up being Kyle Singler. A similar situation is going on with O'Brien and the football team. Some might look at TOB's 5-7 and 6-7 records and say "How is that progress from the Amato-era?" That of course would ignore the subtle but very important improvements TOB has made to the team, such as the host of redshirted freshmen O-linemen will substantially upgrade a major weakness. Then there's the QB position, at which State now has not one but TWO solid options. Then you ahve consider the abhorrent number of injuries to key players over the past 2 years, and the impact it had on State's record as a result. The list goes on. Bottom line is that State is poised to make a leap next year, a leap that was getting very little publicity midway through the season last year when the Pack was 2-6. In turn, I call on anyone criticizing Lowe on the basis of "progress" to carefully consider the criteria for their evaluation. And FTR, it's no secret that State's recent lack of success overall in major sports is what's really fueling the fire. Some criticism of Lowe has been objective, but much of it amounts to little more than frustrated venting by passionate fans. Despite the negative aspects of it, this same passion is why I'm proud to be a State fan. We are State fans. We bitch, complain, and use a LOT foul language. But we always show up, we always are there to watch our team, cheer them on, boo the shit out of the refs and opposing teams/coaches/fans/etc, and yes crowd message boards, radio station call-in shows, and every bar across the country to complain about why we lost or why we didn't win by enough. I guess in the end I'm choosing to look at thee glass half full. I believe Lowe has made some mistakes, but that he's learned from them and that progress has resulted from it. It's just that State won't start reaping the benefits of this progress until next year at least. And hey, considering how long I and other Wolfpack fans have waited for this program to turn itself back around, I think I can find a way to survive until next season. I can do that, b/c I'm optimstic about seeing what Lowe can do with the right players to work with... "

fantastic post



[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 9:53 PM. Reason : bring it to the top]

1/6/2009 9:29:33 PM

Sorry for the double post Alright so it wasn't a double-post (thanks Mr Grace ), but in the spirit of "reseting the thread," I thought I'd dig this good read back up.

Also - With regards to Lowe, keep in mind that Coach K and Dean Smith almost had their respective fanbases run them out of town after their 4th year. After one particular loss Dean returned on the team bus only to find a life-size "Dean doll" hanging from a tree by a noose. One of his players had to take it down for him. It's no small thing to make your way in the ACC. never has, never will...

http://www.gopack.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=41960&SPID=3731&DB_OEM_ID=9200&ATCLID=522019&Q_SEASON=2008

Quote :

"From the time Sidney Lowe first picked up a basketball, he has been preparing for this job. In fact, when Lowe was named the 18th men’s basketball coach in NC State history on May 5, he simply reassumed the reins of a program he had already coached to an NCAA championship. The first time, however, he was still in uniform, a coach-on-the-court point guard for Jim Valvano’s team that made its improbable run to the 1983 national title. Valvano said it so many times: He sent Lowe onto the floor and told him not to come off until after the win was secured. That’s why in that famous game on April 4, 1983, in Albuquerque, N.M, Lowe never came out of the game. And he played to near perfection: 40 minutes, eight points, eight assists and no turnovers. “He may be the finest point guard to ever play in the ACC,” the late Valvano said after that miraculous season. ... Lowe spent the last 23 years playing and coaching professional basketball, winning three Continental Basketball Association championships as a player and twice being an NBA head coach. He now believes he can translate what he has learned over the last quarter century in the pros to the college game. And having the chance to do so at the school where he played – a place he dearly loves – makes this the greatest opportunity and challenge of his professional life. “I know I am the right person for this job,” Lowe says. “Basketball-wise, I have had the experience of being in the game for a long time. I have played this game on [the college level] and on the highest level and in the biggest national championship game ever. That is something I can pass on to our players. “I can speak from experience. When you are talking to kids, they know you have been through the wars. I know a lot of kids aspire to play in the NBA. I feel like I can work with them and teach them the things they need to know. “My love for this university and for this area runs deep. My commitment here will be second to no one else who would have gotten this job.” ... “I think it is a great thing to have coaches back a the schools where they played because you are bringing back people who are familiar with the league, who care about the league,” ACC Commissioner John Swofford says. “When you have invested yourself in a particular school and in a particular conference, it can’t help but be meaningful to you. “There are some intangibles that are there that might not be there otherwise. They come in with a real knowledge and appreciation of the history of the league. And Sidney is a part of our history, both for NC State and for the ACC.” Lowe came to NC State with his long-time backcourt partner Dereck Whittenburg in the summer of 1979. They had played together for three years under Wootten at DeMatha, and as juniors helped the Hall of Fame coach win the fourth of his five high school national championships by leading the Stags to a perfect 28-0 record. “If ever you saw a coach on the floor, that was Sidney,” Wootten says. “He understood the game so thoroughly, even as a high school player. He had a tremendous feel for the game. He made everybody else better. He made everybody else believe in themselves. He wanted to be part of something greater than himself. He left his ego at the door. “One thing I can tell you as a coach, when Sidney had the ball in his hands, you knew everything was going to be all right.” ... As a sophomore, in Valvano’s first year, the Wolfpack struggled to a 14-13 record. Following the season, Lowe helped lead the United States to a gold medal in the 1981 World University Games in Bucharest, Romania, twice making key plays that helped defeat the Soviet Union. The first was on a last-second, 70-foot heave and the second was on a driving layup over a 7-foot-5 player. ... Lowe still ranks as the ACC career leader in assist to turnover ratio with a 2.94 mark (762 assists to 259 TOs). At the end of his Wolfpack career, he held the school records for single-season (271) and career (762) assists - marks which now rank second in the record books. Many of Lowe’s teammates from then were on hand at the Dail Basketball Complex on the day that Lowe was announced as Herb Sendek’s successor. “He’s a born leader,” Myers says. “He’s been at the forefront of the game of basketball, as a player in college and as a coach in the NBA. I think he is going to do a great job.” Adds Charles: “I just think it is a great thing, landing someone of Sidney’s caliber. He was always a coach on the floor when he played, and he’s been coaching on the NBA level for quite a while. There is obviously going to be an adjustment period for him, because there is more teaching involved in the college game. There is more stuff to manage. But I think he is going to inject excitement into the program.” ... On the day he was hired, Lowe met with more than 800 Wolfpack fans at the Paul Derr Track who welcomed him home. In the months since, he has worked hard to reconnect with former teammates and fellow former Wolfpack players. Both are a testament to his connection with NC State’s basketball history and his goals for the future. “I have thought a great deal about the people who preceded me in this position,” says Lowe, born Jan. 21, 1960. “To know that I now sit in the same position as Coach Case, Coach Sloan and Coach Valvano is just an unbelievable, unreal situation for me. Two of those are guys I played for and the other was the one who got it all started here. “I have a tremendous pride in being associated with this university. I have always tried to stay close to what is happening here, and now that I have returned, everything seems magnified 100 percent.”"

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 9:32 PM. Reason : I :heart: Tim Peeler (no homo)]

1/6/2009 9:30:31 PM

Erios are we supposed to be impressed you wrote all that?

I agree with some of what you wrote but some is way off. You listed 8 players and then said we had a 6-man rotation. I do blame Fowler instead of Lowe for the loss of Werner and Davis.

Quote :

"When you add it all up, Lowe had no chance at landing a decent PG in the 2006 and almost no chance to do so in 2007. "

Chris Warren? Chris Wright? Jamelle McMillan? What do you mean no chance? He picked up Javi and Farnold who are far from ACC caliber PGs.

Quote :

"Brown will likely to be Lowe's 1st ACC-calibur PG and could potentially be a 4-year starter at State."

Lo Brown isn't even a true PG. How could you say this already without seeing him play? He could be another Justin Burke.....

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 11:30 PM. Reason : Don't make Lo Brown the saviour when you don't know]

[Edited on January 6, 2009 at 11:31 PM. Reason : Look I would love to be wrong about Lowe, but I am afraid I don't see it working out]

1/6/2009 11:27:03 PM

^Everything's a fuckin' travesty with you, man!

I mean, really, what's your agenda? We're probably not madness-bound (although it is still a possibility), but we should have known that coming into this season (1: our performance last season 2: we lost our (arguably) two best players, and 3: yes, as of yet, we don't have an ACC-worthy guard).

Don't shit on Brown. He's been extremely impressive in HS (where he's been playing PG) and appears to the best backcourt recruit we've seen in a long while. And Wood might be the sharp-shooter that we haven't seen in, well... forever. And Wall's still in the mix. And then there's Harrow in '10, who is a "true" PG, and he's been tearing it up at Walton.

Our front court isn't looking bad either. We might lose a couple, but we'll have Smith, Howell, and then Leslie. And hopefully Favors (or Cousins).

We're still in the runnings for 3 of the nation's Top10.



[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 12:43 AM. Reason : ]

1/7/2009 12:16:43 AM

James Harden isn't a true PG, either. Neither was atsur.


Anyway, packboozie is one of those "guys" who just needs to emote

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 12:26 AM. Reason : .]

1/7/2009 12:23:13 AM

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RAWR RAWR RAWR

1/7/2009 12:29:51 AM

Quote :

"I agree with some of what you wrote but some is way off. "

You know, I wrote a very thought out, respectful take on this thread. I even managed to do it without resorting to the usual name-calling, foul language and general bitchiness that typically plagues TWW. You on the other hand managed to push my jackass button with just two lines. Actually it was one, but I need that line later in this post.

So be it.

Quote :

"You listed 8 players and then said we had a 6-man rotation. "

Some would argue that the combined talents of Ferguson, Niemen, and Horner wouldn't add up to a decent ACC player. That was the implied point of calling them collectively the sixth man. None were good enough to start, and none posed a respectable defensive presence or offensive threat. The main thing those three did for State was to provide rest time for the 5 starters. Each of the "Starting 5" took turns being the hero night in and night out. None fo the rest ever came close.

Quote :

"I do blame Fowler instead of Lowe for the loss of Werner and Davis. OK Chris Warren? Chris Wright? Jamelle McMillan? What do you mean no chance? He picked up Javi and Farnold who are far from ACC caliber PGs."

- Chris Warren went to Ole Miss. Fair to say a LOT of people missed on him (ala Stephen Curry).
- Chris Wright went to Georgetown. Sorry, but I'm not hating on Lowe for losing him to a perennial contender like the Hoyas. I think the whole "drastic changes in staff and coaching philosophy" issue might have had an impact on Wright's decision too.
- Jamelle McMillan went to Arizona State with Herb. You know, the guy that actually recruited him? And FTR Lowe and Larry Harris did make an attempt to hang onto him.

Pwntage denied. Next.

Quote :

"Lo Brown isn't even a true PG. How could you say this already without seeing him play? He could be another Justin Burke......"

Ah, again my apologies. Here's feedback from people who HAVE seen him play:

http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=315018

Quote :

"1) N.C. State doesn’t need John Wall Sure, it’d be nice to snag the Class of 2009’s crown jewel. But the Wolfpack already has its game-changing point guard on the way in Lorenzo Brown, a senior at Centennial High School in Georgia. I absolutely love what this kid brings to the table. Of all the stars at the GSK — many of whom will be playing in the McDonald’s All-American game two months from now — no one displayed the combination of speed [ding!], athleticism[double ding!], savvy and aggressiveness [triple ding!], that Brown did. The game just seems to come so easy to him. In leading Centennial to the championship of the Summit Hospitality Group division, Brown was a whirling dervish of open-court skills. His second-quarter alley-oop dunk in the title game was definitely YouTube worthy. ! And he finished the night with a stellar stat line of 27 points, six steals and four assists in a 72-53 win over a very good Ravenscroft team. [not bad for a combo guard ] Brown’s most valuable skills: his excellent court awareness, tenacious defensive focus and overall passing ability. [sure as hell sounds like a fucking PG to me] “I never have to worry about Lorenzo, but I challenge him,” said Centennial coach Allen Whiteheart. “I’ve coached him in countless big games and he has always brought his A-game every time a big game comes. It started from the very beginning. He had the first triple-double in our school’s history as a freshman. He’s just a big-game player and a phenomenal teammate.” "

Yeah, I must be totally off my rocker

Call me overly optimistic if you like, but don't give me that Justin Burke crap. It's much harder to objectively evaluate recruits in football than it is in bball. In football the coach and the system utilized by the team extremely important in forecasting a success, which is partially due to the dramatically larger rosters (44 players dress for each game). In basketball, occasionally you'll find a few diamonds in the rough, but by and large the good players are easily to spotted and heavily recruited.


So, in summary:

Quote :

"Erios are we supposed to be impressed you wrote all that?"

You know what... yes, you're damn right you should be fucking impressed. That was damn fine writing actually. In fact, shame on you for even having to ask. How dare you slander my writing by calling it's impressiveness into question? I demand you start being impressed with it this instant. So get to it. Start being impressed. Yes, right fucking now, damnit! Chop-chop! And I better be damned impressed with just how fucking impressed you are of it, too. I'll even wait for it to sink in...



...



... actually I'm going to bed, b/c it's 3:00 in the morning and I need to get a freakin' life


Note to self - do not start reading "4 Corners: how UNC, NCSU, Duke, and WF Made NC the Center of the Bball Universe" at 12:30 AM. It is not conducive to getting sleep.



[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 3:11 AM. Reason : you can't teach stupid]

1/7/2009 2:58:46 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, I must be totally off my rocker "

I'm not saying Brown won't be good or anything but I hate to tell you, Dan Wierderer is not an expert in college basketball or a good journalist.

And even if he was, so what if he thought the kid did good in some tournament? That does not = savior of NC State basketball.

1/7/2009 7:43:21 AM

Chris Wright was pursued by the staff. By the time Lowe got here it was a lot of ground to make up. I don't see why he is a failure for not being able to get him.

1/7/2009 8:34:30 AM

chris warren was the only Lowe fuckup on that list.

1/7/2009 9:14:14 AM

Quote :

"Anyway, packboozie is one of those "guys" who just needs to emote "

Yes, there seem to be a few of those around here.

1/7/2009 9:33:29 AM

Quote :

"Secondly, This "Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare" nonsense really has to stop..."

Good post for the most part, but I take a little bit of an issue here. The program was left SOMEWHAT bare but it wasn't because of Sendek. He can't keep kids committed after he leaves.

He had a McDonald's AA PG slated to take over for Atsur immediately upon graduation.

A team consisting of:

Fells
Costner
McCauley
Werner
Wright
Horner
Ferguson
Davis
+ other pretty high recruits if we follow his recruiting trend (I have no idea how influential coach harris was with Hickson and/or Smith if at all)

would be a pretty nice ACC squad. Losing the commitments of Wright and Werner because of the coaching change/Lee Fowler set this program back 2 years...

Quote :

"Chris Warren? Chris Wright? Jamelle McMillan? What do you mean no chance? He picked up Javi and Farnold who are far from ACC caliber PGs."

McMillan has done nothing to show he is a Pac-10 caliber PG yet even.

Quote :

"James Harden isn't a true PG, either. Neither was atsur."

I don't know what you're trying to say here. Harden hardly ever plays the 1. Glasser and McMillan get 95% of the minutes at that spot. Harden plays swing mostly when Ty Abbot is in the game. Yeah, he does get his assists but that is because teams constantly double and triple team him in the lane...

Quote :

"And Wood might be the sharp-shooter that we haven't seen in, well... forever."

Lo Brown is going to be nasty. He's more of a combo and I think would be a more natural 2, which is why I hope we can bring in a more natural, true PG. However, I think we really need to calm down with Wood. He can shoot, but so can any number of kids in high school with his skill set. By his JR and SR years, he will probably be a contributor but I doubt he'll be impact before that...

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM. Reason : x]

1/7/2009 11:17:12 AM

^I have no delusions about Wood coming in and making animmediate impact. But from everything I've read and seen so far, he's an above average player. he's averaging 28 ppg, and i've read from independent sources that he is one of the best natural shooters in the '09 class (i remember reading somewhere he's shooting better than Reddic was in HS) . I think he'll be a fine compliment to our '09 class, and I'm excited about getting a "natural shooter". Who was our last "natural shooter"?

1/7/2009 12:05:01 PM

Scott Wood has been declared as the sleeper in the class. Wood is the real deal. not only can he shoot buckets from one step off the bus he can drive & penetrate, work screen, pull up from dribble & run and bang'm in.

Wood will be a huge asset for our team. imagine a combo of Archie Miller and Adam Harrington but better and less streaky

We had NO shot at Wright. Its a well known fact that Chris Wright's father had a premie membership on Pack Pride. Chris wanted to come here really bad and play for Sidney even after Herb left. Wrights dad was the ultimate reason why he ended up at GT. Wrights dad couldnt believe what was being said about Herb, the program and how we fans treat some of our own players.

1/7/2009 12:47:07 PM

Quote :

"Wrights dad couldnt believe what was being said about Herb, the program and how we fans treat some of our own players. "

WAAHHH, that's a cop out excuse if true.. no way our fanbase is worse than the majority of major programs, especially those that have won national championships before

1/7/2009 12:57:04 PM

^^^ferguson was heralded much the same and shot the lights out in high school

back before he became eligible to play there was a big tww thread with his HS highlight vids and he was being heralded like he would save us

just like Marcus Stone and Matt Ryan were both highly-recruited quarterbacks to get coming out of high school, but of course Chuck got the wrong one, when these players hit the college field/court things change, you can only compare so much with high school

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ^]

1/7/2009 12:59:43 PM

^I hear what you're saying, but I don't think Fergusson was as highly touted as Wood is. Anyways, we'll see.

BTW, Fergusson is practicing andmay play Saturday.

1/7/2009 1:22:36 PM

Quote :

"imagine a combo of Archie Miller and Adam Harrington but better and less streaky"

LOL that's funny you put them two together when Harrington fucked Archie's gf and then transferred. He was a damn talented player but a headcase. Archie would have played pro ball if he was 6'2". I seriously believe he could out-shoot anyone in the country.

1/7/2009 1:35:06 PM

Quote :

"WAAHHH, that's a cop out excuse if true.. no way our fanbase is worse than the majority of major programs, especially those that have won national championships before"

...and you proved his point.

1/7/2009 1:37:08 PM

Quote :

"ferguson was heralded much the same and shot the lights out in high school back before he became eligible to play there was a big tww thread with his HS highlight vids and he was being heralded like he would save us "

You do realize that he broke both of his wrists his senior year too right? I'd say that could definately screw up your shot in the long run.

V....totally

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : say]

1/7/2009 1:56:00 PM

a little bit of exaggeration about ferguson when he got here.

1/7/2009 2:15:59 PM

I bet UCLA fans got really pissed in 1996 when their coach didn't repeat.

1/7/2009 2:16:25 PM

sids been saying for as long as i can remember how good ferg is but i still havent seen it

1/7/2009 2:38:47 PM

still credible.

1/7/2009 2:51:55 PM

let me clarify that post ^^^^

people are exaggerating how excited people were about ferguson when he got here.

and also to be fair to ferguson in his three seasons his 3pt percentage has been 40%, 40% and is currently 46%, granted on very small samples.

1/7/2009 3:01:17 PM

Ferguson hasn't been bad this year. He's been a solid player for us, nothing great, but solid

1/7/2009 3:07:08 PM

Quote :

"Scott Wood has been declared as the sleeper in the class. Wood is the real deal. not only can he shoot buckets from one step off the bus he can drive & penetrate, work screen, pull up from dribble & run and bang'm in."

Best case he is a Rashad Anderson from what I've read/seen. I still don't see him as the type who will be a major contributor in a high-major conference early on...

1/7/2009 3:11:56 PM

As bare as Sendek allegedly left the cupboard, he still didn't seem to have any trouble getting them to the NCAA tournament over and over again.

The beauty of Herb's system was that we could win even without All-ACC point guard play, so that when top recruits show up and then inevitably underachieve, we could at least find a way to make a run.

Meanwhile, we're lousy again this year, and our only chances of being decent next year rely on a bunch of true freshman coming in and producing instantly at an All-ACC level.

1/7/2009 4:16:18 PM

^you should probably go back and read the whole thread. your points have been addressed many times.

1/7/2009 4:20:32 PM

I stand with Sidney

1/7/2009 4:24:47 PM

Quote :

"he still didn't seem to have any trouble getting them to the NCAA tournament over and over again."

are you aware of how many players we lost after sendek's last season?

1/7/2009 4:41:47 PM

Chuck didn't have a problem taking us bowling

Didn't mean it wasn't time for him to go

1/7/2009 4:48:39 PM

First of all, great post Erios. See, I'm not some demented "troll" and give props where they are due.

Secondly however, we will be losing the best players on our team next year in Fells, McCauley, and possibly Costner.

Losing Ben is going to hurt the most as I think he is the smartest basketball player on the team. I agree with Stein, we absolutely will be relying on freshman to come in and produce immediately. Hopefully we can land Favors/Cousins to compliment T. Smith, then I think we have a decent shot at the NCAA.

It will be very interesting to see how Lowe handles next years scenario, as it will be different from any of the other years he has been here. Hopefully we won't have a bad year and have to blame it on him still learning the college game in year four.

[Edited on January 7, 2009 at 5:21 PM. Reason : .]

1/7/2009 5:19:54 PM

Quote :

"Chuck didn't have a problem taking us bowling Didn't mean it wasn't time for him to go"

2/3 his last three years we didn't make a bowl so not sure what you are trying to say here.....Herb didn't tank like Chuck did.

1/7/2009 7:54:52 PM

1st things first...

Quote :

"The program was left SOMEWHAT bare but it wasn't because of Sendek. He can't keep kids committed after he leaves."

I'd really appreciate some sourced info on how and why certain players ended up going elsewhere (that's NOT specifically directed at NyM410 either). B/c otherwise it's unfair to claim that Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare on the basis of Herb's incoming recruits. You have to prove that Lowe was responsible for those players going elsewhere.

Second, on the issue that Wood hype = Ferguson hype:

Wood - #126 overall and ranked the #29 SG in the '09 class.
Fergie - NR by Rivals and not among the top 40 SGs in 2006.

Not to mention that Wood's stock (no pun intended) has been on the rise (or about "Wood on the rise") and could still rise higher. So while I appreciate simonn, WolfAce, and other for birnging us back down to earth, calling Fergie and Wood similarly touted recruits is at best unfair and at worst downright ridiculous.

Quote :

"First of all, great post Erios. [Thanks, much appreciated]. See, I'm not some demented "troll" and give props where they are due. "

I move that TWW recogonize thatOhBoyeee is not a "demented troll."
::seconded::
All oppose?
::silence::
Motion passes. Please continue.

Quote :

"Secondly however, we will be losing the best players on our team next year in Fells, McCauley, and possibly Costner. Losing Ben is going to hurt the most as I think he is the smartest basketball player on the team. I agree with Stein, we absolutely will be relying on freshman to come in and produce immediately. Hopefully we can land Favors/Cousins to compliment T. Smith, then I think we have a decent shot at the NCAA. It will be very interesting to see how Lowe handles next years scenario, as it will be different from any of the other years he has been here. Hopefully we won't have a bad year and have to blame it on him still learning the college game in year four."

Another solid post FTR.

Yes the frontcourt is going to become an issue, particularly if Costner exits. Honestly however I don't see Costner leaving early unless (A) He has a monster year AND State his stock doesn't take too big of a hit for him being on a mediocre team (Hickson was an exception rather than the rule - that and he was just that good), (B) He has financial issues, or (C) He's an idiot. Also, as talented as Costner is, he doesn't necessarily fit any particular NBA mold. As a power forward he's not physically imposing, and as a small forward he may not have enough quickness. Then there's the questions about his mental toughness.

So I see the frontcourt looking like this:

2009-10
Returning
Costner, Tracy Smith, CJ Williams, Johnny Thomas

Costner is a solid combo forward. Smith is solid option at PF. Not sure what to expect out of the other two.

Incoming
Howell - Solid prospect, will have a chance to contribute depending on how things play out

Potential Incoming
Favors, Cousins

Either would be fucking huge, even with them being 1-and-done.

Forecast - definitely looks brighter with Favors or Cousins, but not too bad in any case. Of Williams, Thomas, and Howell, at least 1 of the 3 will need to step up and be the 3rd forward getting significant PT. A lot of options, a lot of maybes, hard to tell how it'll work out for the Pack.

2010-11
Returning
Tracy Smith, Howell, CJ Williams, Johnny Thomas

Smith and Howell IMO are the likely returning starters, with the other two backing them up.

Incoming
CJ Leslie (SF) - Dude's going to be a freakin' beast, will get PT early and often.

Forecast - Even tougher to tell this far in the future. Picking up another PF recruit should be a priority for Lowe to ensure future success.


[Edited on January 8, 2009 at 1:14 PM. Reason : 1st & 2nd]

1/8/2009 12:52:13 PM

Quote :

"Id really appreciate some sourced info on how and why certain players ended up going elsewhere (that's NOT specifically directed at NyM410 either). B/c otherwise it's unfair to claim that Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare on the basis of Herb's incoming recruits. You have to prove that Lowe was responsible for those players going elsewhere."

My understanding of the situation was that Fowler failed to contact the committed recruits for a month after Sendek had left, and that one of the main reasons that all of them (except Horner) ended up being granted releases and going elsewhere. If that is the case then the blame rests squarely on Fowler's shoulders and not on either Lowe or Sendek.

1/8/2009 2:06:14 PM

Quote :

"I'd really appreciate some sourced info on how and why certain players ended up going elsewhere (that's NOT specifically directed at NyM410 either). B/c otherwise it's unfair to claim that Sendek didn't leave the cupboard bare on the basis of Herb's incoming recruits. You have to prove that Lowe was responsible for those players going elsewhere."

It's really a matter of semantics more than anything else. The cupboard was pretty bare (at PG -- I still maintain that Costner, Fells and McCauley are all high ACC caliber players) but it wasn't because Sendek left it that way. He had a class assembled that would have had competing in the top 1/3 of the ACC last year...

My issue was that people say that "Sendek left nothing" and I disagree with THAT. Not the fact that, thanks to Fowler and whatever else (Wright's dad if you talk to some, Werner, etc), we actually didn't have much talent for Sidney Lowe to work with.

[Edited on January 8, 2009 at 2:13 PM. Reason : x]

1/8/2009 2:11:55 PM

When Lowe got here mccauley and fells were not even starters the year before. They both were averaging around 2pts a game. Costner was also an unknown commodity because he had a medical redshirt for the year before. The only regular returning starter was atsur (grant only started 9 games and only averaged 8 pts a game). I think it is fair to say there was an empty cupboard.

1/8/2009 2:28:40 PM

I dont know for sure, but not just any player is built for Sendek's coaching system, and they certainly aren't built for Lowe's if they are built for Sendek. So even had Sendek left players good for his team, they may not have been for Lowe's team. It will take time, and things are definately coming together. There are some decent recruits coming in next year. It should get better before it gets worse.

1/8/2009 2:36:12 PM

one could argue that if lowe were a good coach he'd make it work until he got the players he wanted.

i'm not going to, though.

1/8/2009 2:58:48 PM

Quote :

"2009-10 Returning Costner, Tracy Smith, CJ Williams, Johnny Thomas"

CJ Williams does NOT play inside......and Horner tries to even though he shouldn't.

Horner has become Andrew Brackman version 2. Good freshman year with a nice looking shot then put on weight to gain muscle and lose quickness.

1/8/2009 4:50:35 PM

^He was a sf/sg in hs, but i think he's only played guard since he's been here. what about thomas? i don't think i've seen a game he played in, but i thought he's been playing the 2 too. Anyways, nice posts Erios.

1/8/2009 4:57:35 PM

Erios for mod of this thread

1/8/2009 5:03:59 PM

^^ yeah really. after that clemson (?) game where he broke his nose he kindof disappeared. he's finally starting to be a little assertive, but it's a little late to make a career out of it.

1/8/2009 5:04:01 PM

im all for running and gunning but less isolation O and more movement off the ball plz

1/9/2009 8:16:14 AM

for every nice hustle play Horner makes, he makes 5 or 6 boneheaded, "I shouldn't be playing basketball" plays. Every time he comes in the game, we start to suck. I consider it a victory if he's in the game for 5 minutes in a tie game and we don't go down by 10.

1/9/2009 11:11:53 AM

^you gotta (kinda) admire the guy for sticking around when the rest of the '06 recruits split. He was highly touted coming out of hs (rivals has him as a 4*).

Here's how scout describes him: "...Will look for a structured style that suits his needs. Strong basketball IQ; late bloomer." Yes, late.

1/9/2009 11:56:46 AM

people give horner way too hard of a time. you'd think he was all that's in the way of us being a final four team the way people rag on him on tdub.

1/9/2009 12:23:53 PM

still credible

1/9/2009 2:27:22 PM

Quote :

"I consider it a victory if he's in the game for 5 minutes in a tie game and we don't go down by 10."

Well fuck yeah, by those standards** we're twelve and nil!!!

[Edited on January 10, 2009 at 12:03 AM. Reason : **or a lucky shot... or a couple FT's or TO's]

1/9/2009 11:59:56 PM