i think he's saying that they weren't terrible even if they should have been. this is more just a credit to roy williams than it is saying that ncsu is somehow awful because they lost to a young team.

^and you can be underrated by people expecting you to be worse than you actually are. people expected carolina to be terrible this year and they weren't. thus they were underrated.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 2:39 PM. Reason : and]

3/23/2006 2:38:09 PM

^ ding ding.

3/23/2006 2:45:07 PM

i always wonder how bill snyder was able to take k-state from the bottom of division 1 to the BCS in 7 years, even though he coached in a state known for basketball...thats what i always think of when people say "it take a lot longer to build a good program". i cant think of one current power who has done this long build w/o at least going to a major bowl once (im talking bcs). whose model are we following here with these assumptions that it takes 15 years to get to the bcs?

3/23/2006 2:51:58 PM

No one said 15 years. I said not 5.

Look at Bowden, Beamer, Mike Price (Wash St.)... there's a lot of examples. Bowden had a bit of early success, but dropped off and took many years to win big.

It's not a rule of thumb. Meyer won huge at Utah and Bowling Green pretty fast. Others didn't. Regardless, it takes a whooole lot more players to win at football than basketball, thus a lot more years of recruiting.

Regardless of what I think of Chuck's coaching abilities, we've got the most talent in Raleigh than we ever have. Problem is, that great talent depends on a weak and thin OLine.... weak QB's...etc. I'll hold off judgement until I see if he can put it all together. Oline is by FAR the hardest part of building a program. Chuck's job mostly everywhere is great... his Oline and QB are terrible.

Chucks done some good things. He develops talent better than most coaches out there, IMO. I'll wait to see how he can do with a mediocre QB.... not a Rivers, but not a walking interception either.

I wish he could motivate his players to play Carolina a little more, also

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:17 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 3:08:24 PM

yeah, i mean just look how well he developed jay davis while he was here.

3/23/2006 3:16:05 PM

uh, bowden started in 1976 and made consecutive orange bowls in 1979-80. they then went to the peach and gator a couple times, then jumped back up to the fiesta by 1986.

beamer ill give you, but he made the sugar by his 8th season...

if chuck isnt past the tire bowl level by his 8th year, what makes you think he'll ever go any higher than that?

also, we have regressed, and from the looks of things, will continue to at least for next year

i mean, there are definately better coaches out there at small schools we could nab for sure (which i dont think can be said for bball). mike price and frank solich are proven winners at the bcs conference level.

V WTF...its always been one of the best bowls. they played and lost to Oklahoma in both games. dont make stuff up...the Sugar, Orange, and Rose have always been the class of the bowls.

http://nationalchamps.net/NCAA/database/index.htm

8 years looks to be the real watermark. beamer went to the sugar in his 8th year. don nehlen went to the fiesta his 8th. Price went to the Rose his 8th.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:19:51 PM

I don't think the Orange Bowl was a very good bowl in 76.... it was more like the Car Care Bowl...I think..?

It hasn't always been a major bowl, but I honestly don't know the year it became great or how fast it progressed.

3/23/2006 3:22:41 PM

Quote :

"UNC should have been terrible"

Reyshaun Terry - Top-75, top 50 Junior
David Noel - Experienced Senior'

Then you have pretty much a Fab 4 of freshmen.

Tyler Hansbrough - top 10 player
Bobby Frasor - top 10 point guard top 50 player
Danny Green - top 7 SG, top 25-30 player
Marcus Ginyard - top 8 guard, top 30 player


Add those guys to Noel and Terry, throw in good role players like Byron Sanders (who was still a top-75 kid) and a veteran, scrappy sharp shooter in Wes Miller and you've got an automatic top 4 ACC team. I had them preseason 4th in the ACC and getting into the tourney. They got hot at the end and got a lot of hype. But they still returned to their regular form in the tournament.


You don't know college basketball if you thought UNC was going to suck this year.

3/23/2006 3:28:57 PM

i guess you're right. far be it from me to think that freshmen won't immediately deliver. . .

3/23/2006 3:30:50 PM

when I said UNC was majorly underrated, I meant that everyone thought they would be horrible this year because they lost their top seven scorers. Roy did a great coachign job, but the talent level on that team was much higher than people thought.

3/23/2006 3:31:07 PM

Quote :

"He develops talent better than most coaches out there, IMO. "

Don't know what makes you say this. Norm Chow developed Rivers. Manny and Mario were athletic freaks to begin with. I still think Mario should have been a lot more dominant than he was this past year.

And you say he's got more talent in the program than we've ever had....yet we're still having the same records that we had under MOC (with weak ass schedules)...yet you say he develops talent better than most coaches out there??? That equation doesn't really make sense.

3/23/2006 3:31:46 PM

Mario was a dominant player. Compare his numbers to Peppers.. who was also dominant (Remember, Peppers redshirted and didn't blow up until his RS Junior year.... or his 4th year). Mario was an excellent run-stopper, which isn't as noticed as sacks and TFL's. He also only played 3 years, and DE is one of those positions where it's a learned trait (Much like OLine. Rarely will you hop in from day 1 and be successful at OLine)

I believe we were Manny's only football scholarship....and he was a 1* recruit

When I say develops talent, I mean NFL talent. He's taken a lot of crappy players and made them NFL calibre.

It hasn't translated on the field into a lot of consistent winning, nor do I know if it will. All I'm saying is that he's proven he can develop talented players... we just have some major weak spots that i hope he can address.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:38 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 3:36:30 PM

manny was that good in high school though. he was just scouted poorly.

there is nothing amato did that made him any better at all.

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:39 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 3:38:16 PM

Okay, so Chuck had the eye to find a kid who was an athletic freak and had only played like 2 years of football before signing with NC State. Other programs passed on him, now he's a first round NFL draft pick. That's good, right?

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:40 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 3:40:20 PM

we should hang banners for recruiting rankings

3/23/2006 3:41:43 PM

Mario got like 2/3 of his sacks against two teams...one of those teams was our shitty OOC opponent, the other team was Maryland (who sucked last year too).

I don't have to look at numbers. I watched the games. Peppers was more dominant than Mario his senior year. I still love Mario...but with his physical attributes...he could have done a little better. He was also a 5-star player coming in...so it's not like Chuck had a lot of developing to do.

3/23/2006 3:43:29 PM

Quote :

"far be it from me to think that freshmen won't immediately deliver. . . "

What is that in reference too??

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:45 PM. Reason : .]

3/23/2006 3:44:45 PM

Mario was a 4* (Per scout, anyways)

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=178&p=8&c=1&nid=222939

Quote :

"Peppers was more dominant than Mario his senior year"

As a pass rusher.

Mario is a much better run stopper

And again, Peppers played 4 years (RS, Fr, So, Jr). Mario played 3.


[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 3:48 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 3:45:17 PM

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=93&p=8&c=1&nid=2106572


This has Mario as a 5-star and th #1 DE in the country.

How much are you suppose to develop that??

And Peppers came in extremely undeveloped physically. Mario was still a beast when he came in...even if he was oly 250/260 lbs.

I'm sorry, but using Mario as an example of developed talent does not work.

3/23/2006 3:56:05 PM

aha, 2 different bios? gg scout


Well, I didn't necessarily use Mario as an example. You said he should have been better.. that's how he came into this conversation.


When I say "developed talent", I'm talking more about the andre maddux', Lamont Reid, Marcus Hudson, McCargo, Harris, Locklear, Tulloch, etc. Going from memory, none of those guys were recruited highly at all....

He also did well with some MyCocaine recruits (Burnette, Cotch, Rivers)



[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 4:04 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 4:00:49 PM

Quote :

"What is that in reference too?? "

Quote :

"You don't know college basketball if you thought UNC was going to suck this year."

3/23/2006 4:04:50 PM

too bad his records since 2003 look like o'cain's

3/23/2006 4:05:31 PM

In a much tougher ACC

(Actually, I might take that back. It's arguable)

[Edited on March 23, 2006 at 4:09 PM. Reason : ]

3/23/2006 4:07:57 PM

considering the records of the 3 teams we beat in the acc last year...

[no]

3/23/2006 4:12:43 PM

Tulloch and Hudson were 3-stars. But those are the only ones I distinctively remember. McCargo was a good find.

You also have to remember that Chuck doesn't work directly with a lot of these guys. If we had low rated O-line guys coming in, and they develop into great O-lineman, then my praise goes to Mike Barry (although he's sucked as an O-line coach the past few years). Same thing with Rivers. First, that kid was just smart, and he learned most of his stuff from Norm Chow his freshmen year.

I give Chuck credit for recruiting. I can't say that I give him credit for developing talent. And right now his coaching is not up to par at all.

3/23/2006 4:24:47 PM

Chuck has not made an Elite 8...Chuck can't beat UNC....Chuck can't beat Wake....Blah Blah Blah

I still don't understand the double standard.

But of course I want us to keep both coaches, at least for now.

3/23/2006 5:03:08 PM

look at everyone acting like they thought carolina was going to be good this year from the get-go. I didn't hear ANYONE predicting carolina to do shit. nobody. not even the talking heads.

3/23/2006 5:07:46 PM

I said they would still make the NCAAs. You can search for it if you like but I did.

But I never thought they would be #10 or anything like that. If I would have known that Hansdouche could get away with traveling, murder, etc. I would have said better.

3/23/2006 5:09:35 PM

haha i remember this...Herb and Chuck

3/23/2006 5:12:58 PM

Quote :

"I give Chuck credit for recruiting. I can't say that I give him credit for developing talent. And right now his coaching is not up to par at all."

I agree with that.

Chuck is great at finding diamonds in the rough. Developing players, IMO, is a part of that... taking a no-one and turning him into a good player. His coaching hasn't been great, but it's hard to do that with the shittiest QB situation in the history of NC State.

Like I said. I'm not predicting greatness and I'm not 100% happy with him, but I'm willing to give him a few years to see if he can at least develop a decent QB and OLine. We've been pretty solid everywhere else.. just not where it matters the most.

3/23/2006 5:18:31 PM

Quote :

" But I never thought they would be #10 or anything like that."

In reality they weren't the #10 team in the country. They got hot at the right time and took advantage of us faltering.

The real UNC came back in the tournament (in the ACC tourney where they didn't play great against UVA and BC, and in the NCAA where they almost got beat by Murray St. and got beat by George Mason).

I remember most publications having them anywhere from 4th to 6th. Duke and BC were consensus 1/2. Wake was usually 3/4. We were picked anywhere from 4th to 6th. Miami was thrown up there in the 4-6 range with us and UNC.

3/23/2006 5:25:03 PM

Quote :

"Chuck is great at finding diamonds in the rough."

Which is why people need to quit bitching about us recruiting in Florida. I mean, we've found our "diamonds in the rough" in NC, like Manny Lawson and the such. But they are so many freaking athletes in Florida that you really can make a solid football team off of the big 3's leftovers.

We're just going to have to start getting better results so we can start getting a few of those diamonds that are not hiding in the rough.

3/23/2006 5:26:51 PM