So your excuse for being racist is that everyone is too?

lol.

4/29/2010 9:26:49 PM

So you're saying you're a racist?

I knew it. I always knew it.

Now everytime you make any statement, I'm going to say that you're a racist because I have come to this conclusion.

4/29/2010 9:27:50 PM

And....go!

4/29/2010 9:28:40 PM

Quote :

"My state, California, will see a 20 million person growth in my lifetime if the 0.96% population growth rate continues. Since the congestion, cost of housing, and environmental damage in this state is already disgusting to me I don't look forward to the future millions."

congestion? in cali? it's the state that invented sprawl. immigration has nothing to do with it. congestion is a problem that can be solved by effective urban planning, not xenophobic policy.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 10:05 PM. Reason : and that's to say nothing of the irony of a californian wanting to keep cali "american"]

4/29/2010 9:54:04 PM

prices have gone through the roof because desirability is through the roof. People from other states move to California. You never see a California transplant. How many people in your culdesac are from California? People don't stay there because they hate it.

4/29/2010 10:17:15 PM

I took a few moments to consider the immigrants/skills discussion.

Immigrants for the most part don't arrive here skilled in the jobs that they are most likely to be employed. It's not like they're born laying Sheetrock, God. However, they learn those skills on the job quickly so don't fret, Wintermute!!! They come to work!

What's wrong about this discussion is that it glosses over all the skills/potential that they don't have an opportunity to employ. They're locked out of certain jobs because they're illegal. The guy who has mowed my lawn for over a decade speaks like five languages. To view immigrants (legal or otherwise) as automatically unskilled or even "skilled" in the fine art of "performing detailed lawn maintenance" is to miss the big picture.

4/29/2010 10:23:40 PM

<---- california transplant. although i'd probably go back under the right circumstances.

[Edited on April 29, 2010 at 10:23 PM. Reason : ]

4/29/2010 10:23:44 PM

Immigrants are heroes. They risk life and limb to come to a place where people wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire in order to do the shittiest jobs earning under minimum wage to send assistance back to their poor families.

4/29/2010 10:27:41 PM

Quote :

"To view immigrants (legal or otherwise) as automatically unskilled or even "skilled" in the fine art of "performing detailed lawn maintenance" is to miss the big picture."

one might even call it bigoted

4/29/2010 10:27:50 PM

True. My point was that they're perfectly capable of performing skilled tasks just like everyone else (to counter the "flood of unskilled labor" argument).

4/29/2010 10:33:26 PM

its unfortunate for you that you revealed your racist attitudes while expressing that point.

4/29/2010 10:47:10 PM

^^I feel you.

4/29/2010 10:52:38 PM

ITT BridgetSPK palms off bigoted stereotypes because they were perpetuated by a fellow liberal

4/29/2010 10:57:44 PM

I don't consider God a fellow anything.

4/29/2010 11:03:29 PM

Of course people can pick up skills, I never disputed that. My point is more along the lines that unskilled immigration puts a downward pressure on wages and this will have an impact on the natives in this country, especially the less skilled.
Once upon a time someone working in a slaughterhouse could eke out a middle class existence. These workers have mostly been displaced by mexican immigrants. And it's not like all those displaced suddenly become engineers and resumed their middle class existence. Many of them are underemployed and unemployed right now. The economic benefits of immigration certainly work in the favor of the elite and the immigrants themselves. But I think people should be honest with the fact that the bottom rung of society gets trounced by cheap labor.

4/29/2010 11:17:39 PM

who eeked out a middle class existence by working in a slaughterhouse and when?

There has always been cheap immigrant or black labor (when blacks weren’t allowed to get an education).

Seems like a weak sauce argument against immigration.

4/29/2010 11:38:20 PM

Quote :

"it's the state that invented sprawl. immigration has nothing to do with it. congestion is a problem that can be solved by effective urban planning, not xenophobic policy."

I doubt smart growth is going to make difference in reducing sprawl--most communities in the Bay Area already encourage this sort of development. The problems from a NorCal perspective are:
1) The Bay Area is very disperse and no effective public transportion links the various population centers to each other. For example, individual communities in the East Bay can grow smartly but there is no effective way except the freeways to get their workers to the center of jobs (the South Bay).
2) Home-ownership is still a huge draw. People will continue to live in Modesto or Stockton and commute to San Jose for work because they can afford a house in the Central Valley. Maybe gas prices in the future will discourage this but I don't see it changing soon.

Without a huge investment on public transportation from our nearly bankrupt state government I don't see traffic being reduced on the 101, 680, and 580 in the near future.

4/29/2010 11:40:03 PM

smart growth is an urban planning buzzword. if people don't want to use the BART, that's their problem, and they'll continue to sit on 1-80 and I-5 and commute 2 hours to and from their shitty little edge cities. i'll never understand why anybody in their right mind would rather live in modesto than closer to a city. "woo-hoo, i own a home. a shitty little house with a 10 foot lawn and a garage door. i win at life."


but i still don't see why you think this has any bearing on immigration reform. unless your only goal was to slide in how you live near the bay area.

4/30/2010 12:47:30 AM

I used congestion as just one example of a negative consequence of population growth. In general , I reject the notion of some economists like Casey Mulligan or Bryan Caplan that the benefits of population growth are predominantly positive.

4/30/2010 2:24:05 AM

Quote :

"You don't know it's always rooted in some kind of ignorant bigotry. You assume that, and state it as fact, but you have no idea what you're talking about."

You know, I don't know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. I mean, I have every reason to think it will, but I can't guarantee the damn thing.

It's the same with your allies. I've dealt with them long enough to recognize the same bullshit day in and day out.

Quote :

"1. 3.5% is actually pretty staggering, at least to me."

Yeah, it's a lot of people. So the fuck what?

Quote :

"2. It doesn't take a lot of people willing to do any job for peanuts to drive down the cost of labor."

You can't be in favor of free trade and opposed to the free movement of labor.

I realize that you, personally, are not anti-immigration, but hopefully you understand my need to argue against anything that could be construed as anti-immigration.

Quote :

"When that actually happens and isn't followed by the man being able to retire early on his court settlement, I'll take your shit seriously."

Just so I'm clear -- you think a good basis for law is, "Pass whatever you want until somebody is able to sue the shit out of you?"

I'm not sure I can count the problems with that.

Quote :

"Its not easy doing their job and I support their efforts. "

It's not that there's a fundamental problem with cops. I agree wholeheartedly that they're in a difficult position -- in charge of enforcing the law, but not so high and mighty as to be above it. It's a tough issue.

But what we emphatically do not need in this country is a means for them overstep their bounds and have further legal protection to do so.

Quote :

"Plus, GrumpyGOP has touched on the fact that immigration has always been a racial issue. "

No. It has often been racial, but not always. And while I sympathize with your basic thought process here, I feel compelled to differentiate.

The Irish were not fundamentally a different race. Neither were the Poles, nor the Italians. Sometimes our bigotry isn't strictly speaking racial, it's simply xenophobic or targeted against the poor.

Quote :

"My state, California, will see a 20 million person growth in my lifetime if the 0.96% population growth rate continues. Since the congestion, cost of housing, and environmental damage in this state is already disgusting to me I don't look forward to the future millions. "

New York saw ungodly rates of immigration, and that's why today it is recognized as one of the poorest, shittiest states in the union. Or maybe the exact opposite of that. I can never remember.

4/30/2010 2:59:02 AM

however you feel about immigration, I would think there are 2 points in common ground that our government needs to fix ASAP.

1. the securing of the borders to prevent the mass undocumented flow people from crossing...not only can criminals, contraband and other undesirables easily move into our country down there, but it is also extremely dangerous for those doing it, the good people coming that route are easily exploited by bad people and it is harmful the private property owners and ranchers on the border which sometimes results in vigilantism and murder.

2. the immediate documentation or deportation of those here now...not so much as amnesty for all, but more a targeted 'one time only' chance for those who actually are contributing to our society to announce themselves here as legal...those who do not contribute, who have criminal records, choose not to declare themselves, etc...PEACE OUT.


logically, one of the only ways to enforce either of these solutions is to have a police force empowered to 'ID' people they suspect to be illegal. I understand that some cops are assholes, but the vast majority only want to do their job. we have to be able to enforce our laws and not pick and choose which ones are the best.

4/30/2010 8:46:08 AM

Quote :

"I used congestion as just one example of a negative consequence of population growth. In general , I reject the notion of some economists like Casey Mulligan or Bryan Caplan that the benefits of population growth are predominantly positive. "

It’s irrelevant if you reject this notion, because the population is going to be growing for a while yet. It’s what we humans do. It makes more sense to accommodate this vs ignoring it or shutting it down.

4/30/2010 8:48:18 AM

My main problem with illegal immigration is cost. Even the illegals that come here provide valued services, however, there is no such thing as a free lunch. They clog the public schools and state healthcare, yet pay little or no taxes (dont even begin to tell me sales tax really counts).

If they paid into the system, I dont think people would care.

Then again, in their defense, they arent really offered the opportunity to pay into the system. Its fucked up, but I completely understand Arizona.

The feds are going to have to come up with something better.

I wonder how much Mexico benefits from this... I wonder if illegals report income to the mexican government and claim it, so its in Mexico's benefit to have them working over here. I know nothing about mexican tax law.

[Edited on April 30, 2010 at 9:30 AM. Reason : .]

4/30/2010 9:28:08 AM

Quote :

"GrumpyGOP: No. It has often been racial, but not always. And while I sympathize with your basic thought process here, I feel compelled to differentiate. The Irish were not fundamentally a different race. Neither were the Poles, nor the Italians. Sometimes our bigotry isn't strictly speaking racial, it's simply xenophobic or targeted against the poor."

The Irish, Italians, and Poles have all been considered non-white at one convenient time or another.

But I get your point. Obviously, xenophobia and $$ are big factors, too.

[Edited on April 30, 2010 at 11:33 AM. Reason : sss]

4/30/2010 11:32:53 AM

I agree racism is a larger part of the national attitude towards Latinos, not because of skin color, but because of culture. The language barrier is huge and, IMO, Latino assimilation is hindered by the whole "press 2 for espanol" idea. They arent forced to learn English because they can pretty effectively navigate the US without it, but it alienates them from Americans and keeps them relatively segregated.

When the Poles, Chinese and Italians arrived, there was no "press 2." They had to learn the language, and quickly, which ultimately led to more interactions with "natives" and less racism.

4/30/2010 11:45:05 AM

Quote :

" When the Poles, Chinese and Italians arrived, there was no "press 2." They had to learn the language, and quickly, which ultimately led to more interactions with "natives" and less racism. "

Fucking EXACTLY!!!!

Everyone else including most of our ancestors (including the slaves from Africa) learned English. Why can Jose' not figure it the fuck out instead of expecting our society to cater to spanish. If you do not speak english than you should not be getting a fucking drivers liscense. The DMV needs to be english only.

Here are two solutions....

1.) Ranchers, as long as they post a warning sign announcing it, should be able to shoot illegals that trespass on their land. Their is currently a video report on cnn.com about a rancher who was shot and killed by illegals while out attending to his cattle.

2.) Fix the citizenship law that allows persons being born on US soil to automatically be citizens. This feature was created in the early days of this country and has no need in modern society.

4/30/2010 12:21:57 PM

Quote :

"When the Poles, Chinese and Italians arrived, there was no "press 2." They had to learn the language, and quickly, which ultimately led to more interactions with "natives" and less racism."

bullshit. apparently you've never been to a big city where there are huge ethnic enclaves. of course, their kids all speak normal english and have assimilated fine, but who knows how long that'll still be true with idiots saying shit like

Quote :

"Fix the citizenship law that allows persons being born on US soil to automatically be citizens. This feature was created in the early days of this country and has no need in modern society."

[Edited on April 30, 2010 at 12:29 PM. Reason : .]

4/30/2010 12:28:03 PM

Quote :

"apparently you've never been to a big city where there are huge ethnic enclaves. of course, their kids all speak normal english and have assimilated fine, but who knows how long that'll still be true with idiots saying shit like "

well you may be right. I though have never called a hotline and had to listen to the menu say...

Press
1.) For English
2.) For Spanish
3.) For Italian
4.) For Polish
5.) For Croatian
6.) For Vietnamese
7.) For Chinese

I guarantee the establishment were 10x less tolerant of this than even your most bigotted "Dey Tuk Err Job" person is today. If you do not want to learn english, fucking fine. Do not expect though to have spanish on the menu's at the DMV, 1-800 hotlines, ATM's, etc.

Maybe I can understand an exception in border states but not New York or North Carolina.

Quote :

"commute 2 hours to and from their shitty little edge cities. i'll never understand why anybody in their right mind would rather live in modesto than closer to a city. "woo-hoo, i own a home. a shitty little house with a 10 foot lawn and a garage door. i win at life." "

This is my philosophy. I hate commuting. I have issue with renting; and would rent for a 20 min commute if the only housing I could afford is 1 hour away. You would think that people learned after the housing collapse that real estate is not a risk-less investment.

[Edited on April 30, 2010 at 12:38 PM. Reason : a]

4/30/2010 12:34:58 PM

the only reason a hotline has an option for another language is to make their work easier and more efficient. what you are arguing for would therefore make society LESS efficient in the name of ethnocentrism.

4/30/2010 12:37:35 PM

Quote :

"You know, I don't know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. I mean, I have every reason to think it will, but I can't guarantee the damn thing. It's the same with your allies. I've dealt with them long enough to recognize the same bullshit day in and day out."

It's easy to gather data to figure out that the sun is going to come up. It's been doing it for a long time now, and there hasn't been a day on earth where it didn't come up. You're trying to say that you believe almost all people that are opponents of illegal immigration are racists. You don't know that, and there's no evidence to support that. You haven't talked to everyone that opposes illegal immigration. You've met or heard from a few racists, and now you want to make a generalization.

Anyway, this thread is great, let's keep it going with the broad, sweeping statements and the stereotypes.

4/30/2010 12:53:49 PM

Quote :

"My main problem with illegal immigration is cost. Even the illegals that come here provide valued services, however, there is no such thing as a free lunch."

In this thread I have already pointed to sources that indicate that illegals pay more into the system than they take out.

Quote :

"The language barrier is huge and, IMO, Latino assimilation is hindered by the whole "press 2 for espanol" idea. They arent forced to learn English because they can pretty effectively navigate the US without it, but it alienates them from Americans and keeps them relatively segregated."

I don't even have words for how stupid this is. I think my favorite part is the way it implies that Latinos get special treatment, rather than other immigrant groups showing up before the invention of the touch-tone phone.

As with every other immigrant group, the adults who come here will be so-so at the English and the kids will be able to speak it just fine (or at least, no worse than the average American), because they go to schools where we fucking teach them how and surround them with other kids who speak the motherfucker.

And phone menus be damned, there is still enormous incentive for immigrants, legal and otherwise, to learn English. Inability to do so draws attention -- something they don't want. It also hampers the more mundane, day-to-day interactions that you seem to toss out the window.

Quote :

"Why can Jose' not figure it the fuck out instead of expecting our society to cater to spanish."

You think it's Hispanics expecting us to roll over to their every whim, rather than businesses thinking "Hmmm, there sure are a shit-ton of beaners, we could probably make money off them" and the government thinking, "well, fuck, they're here, if we don't tell them what's going on everything's gonna be fucked."

Quote :

"1.) Ranchers, as long as they post a warning sign announcing it, should be able to shoot illegals that trespass on their land."

Sickening. This is what we've come to, that now we want to shoot people for crossing an imaginary line to try to find a job? Kinda makes me hope that somebody shoots you for something ridiculous.

Quote :

"Fix the citizenship law that allows persons being born on US soil to automatically be citizens."

WTF? What would you replace it with? Please tell me, because I'm thinking of alternatives and all of them are pretty goddamn awful.

Quote :

"If you do not speak english than you should not be getting a fucking drivers liscense. "

To get a license I'd rather you pass a driving test than an English test.

4/30/2010 12:58:11 PM

If there was an English test for a driver's license, half the people in this thread wouldn't be able to drive.

4/30/2010 12:59:31 PM

I love it when responses include insults, as that fosters ideas and conversation.

4/30/2010 1:11:59 PM

Well, you can be a big boy and respond to the meat of the post rather than the insults, or I guess you could also whine about it like a little bitch. This is the wolfweb, not happytown junction.

4/30/2010 1:15:39 PM

Quote :

"prices have gone through the roof because desirability is through the roof. People from other states move to California. You never see a California transplant. How many people in your culdesac are from California? People don't stay there because they hate it."

Last time I checked if you remove Latinos from the calculations the population of California has been decreasing. Jobs and companies are going elsewhere. And its no surprise when you have a nonfunctional state gov't, ridiculous energy and environmental regulation, and some of the most expensive costs of living in the country.

4/30/2010 1:42:39 PM

Quote :

"This is what we've come to, that now we want to shoot people for crossing an imaginary line to try to find a job?"

Well if i go camping or fishing and cross the "imaginary line" that puts me onto a military base or nuclear power plant; than
a couple big black SUV's with guards carrying MP5's is coming my way.

Quote :

" WTF? What would you replace it with? Please tell me, because I'm thinking of alternatives and all of them are pretty goddamn awful. "

Whatever system the majority of countries on this planet have. Your parents must be citizens (at least one) or you must
become naturalized by the same process that any other immigrant becomes a US citizen. Coming to the US for vacation
while 8-months pregnant should not give you a free pass to come live in america just because you pumped out your kid who
is not a US citizen.

Quote :

" To get a license I'd rather you pass a driving test than an English test. "

Well the driving test should be in english, since afterall the fucking road signs that you must use on the road are in english.

Quote :

"If there was an English test for a driver's license, half the people in this thread wouldn't be able to drive. "

probably a good thing

4/30/2010 2:22:40 PM

Quote :

"Well if i go camping or fishing and cross the "imaginary line" that puts me onto a military base or nuclear power plant; than a couple big black SUV's with guards carrying MP5's is coming my way."

Yes, this is an equivalent comparison.

4/30/2010 2:38:32 PM

Quote :

"Well, you can be a big boy and respond to the meat of the post rather than the insults, or I guess you could also whine about it like a little bitch. This is the wolfweb, not happytown junction."

I love it when you talk dirty

and yes, Latinos do get special treatment, in a myriad of ways, compared to immigrants past.

4/30/2010 4:35:41 PM

Quote :

"who eeked out a middle class existence by working in a slaughterhouse and when? There has always been cheap immigrant or black labor (when blacks weren’t allowed to get an education). Seems like a weak sauce argument against immigration."

There is some truth to this though. Yes, legal immigrant and minority labor is "cheap" in the US, but it's still more expensive than illegal immigrant labor. So instead of hiring those who are already at the bottom economic rungs of our society, we hire people who are willing to work in worse conditions for less money. The point isn't that illegals are willing to do jobs that natives won't, its that illegals are willing to do jobs that natives won't at the lower price point.

4/30/2010 4:49:28 PM

It's illegal to work for less than 7.25 an hour. I wonder if that could have anything to do with it.

4/30/2010 6:27:20 PM

The other day this dude called me about a room ad I had posted entirely in English. "¿Hablas español?" the conversation began. I'm still not fluent but we managed to communicate. I think it's wonderful the guy figured he'd just call me up and see if I knew any Spanish. The United States is becoming a meaningfully bilingual nation. I can't wait for the rally for immigration reform tomorrow.

4/30/2010 6:49:06 PM

Quote :

" The crowd that wants Latinos to show their papers if there’s a “reasonable suspicion” of illegality is often the same crowd still demanding that the president produce a document proving his own citizenship. … It’s no surprise that of the 35 members of the Arizona House who voted for the immigration law (the entire Republican caucus), 31 voted soon after for another new law that would require all presidential candidates to produce birth certificates to qualify for inclusion on the state’s 2012 ballot. With the whole country now watching Arizona, that “birther” bill was abruptly yanked Thursday."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/opinion/02rich.html

[Edited on May 2, 2010 at 2:46 PM. Reason : ]

5/2/2010 2:45:48 PM

I see nothing wrong w/ a bill requiring you to provide proof you are a valid candidate. At the very least, it would kill such birther nonsense at the source.

but, remind me again, what is so terrible about a state saying "follow US federal law," again? Cause I can't find anything wrong with that

5/2/2010 2:54:36 PM

^ so you support unnecessary gov. red tape?

What problems are actually solved by setting up the machinery to officially validate candidates' birth certs, when we haven't had any problems with this yet?

And if you think a birth cert will shut up the racists, then you havent been paying any attention to the birthers.

5/2/2010 4:54:06 PM

is there much gov't red tape that isn't unnecessary?
I'd say that if this kind of thing had existed before 2008, then most of the birthers wouldn't have existed and we'd all be looking at them the same we look at the 9/11 truthers

5/2/2010 4:56:23 PM

Quote :

"I'd say that if this kind of thing had existed before 2008, then most of the birthers wouldn't have existed"

It's possible but I highly doubt it. Arizona is one state, and the current birthers even after seeing the certificate still didn't believe it.

5/2/2010 4:57:55 PM

Quote :

" then most of the birthers wouldn't have existed and we'd all be looking at them the same we look at the 9/11 truthers"

it's cute that this is your way of legitimizing the fact that you are a birther rather than an idiotard

the truth is, the only people who don't view birthers as lunatics are the birthers themselves.

[Edited on May 2, 2010 at 7:28 PM. Reason : ]

5/2/2010 7:27:18 PM

meh, I'm not really a birther. I understand some of their arguments and believe they have merits. But, at the end of the day, I doubt Obama was born in Kenya. i can, however, see how it could logically be argued otherwise.

5/2/2010 7:44:56 PM

^That's the point. It cannot be logically argued otherwise, and to think that makes you wrong/a birther.

[Edited on May 2, 2010 at 7:50 PM. Reason : .]

5/2/2010 7:47:05 PM

eh, there is one legal technicality that could be claimed. But, I think it would go to the SC. It'd be an interesting case, to say the least.

5/2/2010 8:21:59 PM