see i dont care if people want to rag on Smith for punching his teammate, thats fine...in fact he should be ragged on for that

what DOESNT make sense is when people try and act like he's not a great wide receiver

8/2/2008 4:46:30 PM

Quote :

"Ernie's opinion of ranking WRs is much more relevant than Meril Hoge's opinion"

I never said it was more "relevant". I just said that I trust my personal opinion more than his. I'm not saying that I know more about football than Hodge, or that I'm a better evaluator of talent, but in this case I think he's wrong.

Quote :

"sorry if i paraphrased, i couldnt remember your exact wording when you pulled the "but i guess you know more than these experts" line and used it on me in another thread"

Are you talking about the RBI thread. If I remember correctly, you were disputing the research (not personal opinion) that discounted the usefulness of RBI in determining a player's value. That's completely different than what's being argued here.

Quote :

"Reggie Wayne Randy Moss Chad Johnson Terrell Owens Torry Holt TJ Houshmandzadeh Donald Driver Marvin Harrison Greg Jennings Plaxico Burress"

Jennings might be a stretch at this point, but I agree 100% with the rest of the list.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 4:50 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 4:49:02 PM

oh wait...now i know why you guys are putting Plax on your list...he murdered you guys in the NFC Title game...it all makes sense now

8/2/2008 4:50:13 PM

Well, that and the fact that he's a better receiver than Steve Smith.

8/2/2008 4:51:50 PM

Well, that and the fact that he's a better receiver than Steve Smith.

8/2/2008 4:52:55 PM

you guys are probably the only 2 people who believe that (if you even believe it)...more power to you

8/2/2008 4:54:16 PM

^ Treetwista...

Quote :

"titans78: yes they do for example http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2887078 hey look these so called experts (Merril Hoge? whos that? does he follow football?) all say either Steve Smith or Marvin Harrison are the best receiver in the league...but what do they know...they probably don't even watch other players play week in and week out"

That article you found was last updated may 2007... well done. Find people saying he is a top 5 WR for this season, which is what we are refering to.

You guys left some Key wr's off that list. Marques Colston(sp?) Larry Fitzgerald(sp?) could both have monster years, they are young and very athletic. I think I'd have those 2 in my top 5...

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:36 PM. Reason : ..]

8/2/2008 5:32:44 PM

he had over 1,000 yards last year, catching passes from Vinny Testaverde and David Carr...are you saying that performance last year has dropped him 10 spots? Or is he still just as talented as he was a year ago when two of those experts said he was the best WR in the NFL

8/2/2008 5:35:05 PM

You are missing the point. You jumped in in the middle of this , so whatever you might not have read. I said I wouldn't put him in my top 5 this year, and most experts don't either. The guy responded that all the experts have him in their top 3. I then proceeded to post several places that have him somewhere from 7-12ish THIS season. Then you posted an article a year and 3 months old and tried to call me out.

Plus I already said he was a top 10 wr, but not in my top 5. So no he didn't drop 10 spots, he's probably fallen 5-6. He has had trouble staying healthy and has no qb. The question wasn't about the top 5 potentially good wrs, or the top 10 talented.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:40 PM. Reason : ..]

8/2/2008 5:38:53 PM

Of course some people aren't putting him top 5 next season. For all they know Delhomme's elbow may still be fucked up and we're back to having Matt Moore or whoever the fuck else throwing the ball. I can guarantee you that if Delhomme is healthy for the whole season, Smith will blow up, just like he did in 05. You'll find very few "experts" that would disagree with that.

Quote :

"I would take the following receivers over Steve Smith, no questions asked: Reggie Wayne Randy Moss Chad Johnson Terrell Owens Torry Holt TJ Houshmandzadeh Donald Driver Marvin Harrison Greg Jennings Plaxico Burress"

This is insane and just shows how deluded you people are. I'm sorry your savior is proving that he is exactly the selfish diva we've all tried to tell you he is the past decade, but get over it, crapping on Steve Smith won't fix that.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:40 PM. Reason : :]

8/2/2008 5:39:22 PM

Are we capable of rational, objective thought because we are Packers fans or are we Packers fans because we are capable of rational, objective thought? Hmm, chicken and the egg, huh?

8/2/2008 5:42:25 PM

^^^Ok I hear what you're saying, but I also don't think you can rank WRs based on what stats they are projected to put up for one season...last year was simply a REMINDER that Randy Moss is the most physically gifted WR in the NFL...even when Moss was shitting it up in Oakland, he was still the best wide receiver in the NFL...just because Smith had horrible QBs throwing to him for 13 games last season doesn't change how good he is

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:43 PM. Reason : ^^^]

8/2/2008 5:43:01 PM

Dude Shrike wtf are you talking about?

You keep changing your arguement every page, oh not NExt SEAson BUT NEXT Season after Next I meant 4 years ago but actually 5 years ago minus 4 years ago.

You are all over the place.

Going into this season, Steve Smith is somewhere in the 5-10 catagory. He is young, and with a good year he is easily going to jump back up into the top 5. But right now, after just punching a teammate in the face and getting a 2 game suspension, having no qb, etc etc. I am not (nor are OTHER people experts etc) putting him in the top 5 as of right now.

^I am not rating smith based on stats, in fact I haven't mentioned a stat in the last 2 pages. The point was just that he isn't in my top 5 right now, and experts aren't putting him there either, simple as that.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:47 PM. Reason : .]

8/2/2008 5:45:24 PM

That and the fact that Smith did way better with garbage throwing to him than Moss did without Culpepper(healthy)/Brady.

Quote :

"maybe he has the potential to be a top 3 WR, but if he is always hurt that takes away"

Wtf is this always hurt shit? He broke his leg, missed an entire season, then came back and had the best season of his career. The man is hardly hobbled. His stats, minus the season where he broke his leg during game one, are that of a top 3 wide receiver.

^When did I say anything about next season?

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:52 PM. Reason : :]

8/2/2008 5:46:13 PM

Quote :

"I also don't think you can rank WRs based on what stats they are projected to put up"

That's what this whole discussion is about, though. Panthers fans arguing that Smith is the best because they've seen him play, man. It doesn't matter that his stats say he isn't the best, he should be the best, if he had a better quarterback, and a better leg, and blah blah blah...

Smith is always projected to put up big numbers, he did once, and he's put up good (not great) numbers since. That's what started this, the fact that Smith is a good, better-than-average receiver who is consistently over-hyped.

8/2/2008 5:46:18 PM

again, I'm not trying to rank receivers based on the stats they are going to put up this season...I'm ranking receivers based on speed, strength, route running, jumping, catching, eluding tackles, clutch, toughness, focus, etc...not what stats they're supposed to put up next season

8/2/2008 5:47:23 PM

I see what you're trying to say, but at the end of the day it's the numbers that matter. It doesn't matter how fast Smith is or how well he runs routes if he's only catching 7 or 8 touchdowns a year. He's a great athlete and a good receiver, but he hasn't done much outside of 2005 to distinguish himself from the large group of other good receivers in the league.

It's cool that you think he's great and it's cool that there are some "experts" that agree with you. But experts said that Ryan Leaf would be a great pro quarterback, that Favre was washed up after 2006, and that the Panthers were NFC favorites for just about every season. Experts are wrong all the time, stats rarely are.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:55 PM. Reason : durr]

8/2/2008 5:51:09 PM

That wasn't this whole arguement though, it wasn't an arguement based on WR's and their potential, or who is fast, or who can hit the L trigger juke the best.

It was list your top 5 wrs going into this season. YOu have to consider the team when you are asked that. If you are asked list the top 5 talented wr's it is different.

8/2/2008 5:53:05 PM

Quote :

"If you are asked list the top 5 talented wr's it is different."

well i'm changing the argument to "best wide receivers in the NFL"

8/2/2008 5:55:11 PM

^^ dude is the voice of reason

^ Steve Smith is not one of the ten best receivers in the NFL, no matter what the argument is.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 5:56 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 5:55:49 PM

oh i'm sorry a comment shrike made in response to quinn being a moron dictated the argument i have to follow for the next 50 posts

8/2/2008 5:56:51 PM

Hey, let's not ruin this thread any further

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=536142

8/2/2008 5:58:26 PM

haha this thread has turned to shit.. everyone needs to remember the ST rule. If the user name has 5 letters in it, then the poster's commentary is worthless

8/2/2008 6:10:24 PM

Quote :

"ask any of the "experts" on espn,fox,nbc, or cbs, and they'll tell you he's at the very least top 5, if not top 3"

No they won't. Quit spouting out bullshit.

Almost 95% of this board is nothing but homers and you can't see the honest truth.

Much like how I say something like we suck in basketball or Javi is the worst ACC PG (even though he clearly is) and get flamed by idiots.

8/2/2008 6:13:26 PM

plenty of experts would say Smith is a top 5 receiver

are you that "anti-homer" that you dont realize talent BECAUSE its local?

you have people on here saying Smith is "better-than-average"...completely downplaying the talents of a superstar isnt the best way to prove you're not a homer

8/2/2008 6:47:52 PM

Quote :

"I see what you're trying to say, but at the end of the day it's the numbers that matter. It doesn't matter how fast Smith is or how well he runs routes if he's only catching 7 or 8 touchdowns a year. He's a great athlete and a good receiver, but he hasn't done much outside of 2005 to distinguish himself from the large group of other good receivers in the league. "

Stats aren't the only thing that matters though. It's cool if you wanna argue about who the most productive receivers are, but to argue that one receiver is better than another without looking at factors like who he has throwing to him or how often he's getting double covered and what have you is just dumb.

8/2/2008 6:54:45 PM

Quote :

"It's impossible to compare receivers in a vacuum."

Quote :

"I'm going by the stats and what I've seen, and that adds up to what I've said here. Smith is a good receiver, apparently the tenth best over the past four years, but not top ten in 2008."

Catch up, rufus.

[Edited on August 2, 2008 at 7:00 PM. Reason : ]

8/2/2008 6:58:15 PM

Quote :

"Citing a source close to the Packers, the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports that Brett Favre will compete with Aaron Rodgers to start in training camp. Aug. 3 - 4:18 pm et"

What the F

8/3/2008 4:22:36 PM

8/3/2008 4:28:39 PM

Quote :

"Despite saying they've "moved on" throughout the summer, the Packers' reported plan is to open the job for competition. Practice snaps will be split between Favre and Rodgers. The Packers have reportedly also dropped their $20 million marketing offer for Favre to stay retired. Rodgers will almost certainly run the first team on Monday, but Favre has more experience in the offense and can still play, so we'd have to consider him the favorite to win. Aug. 3 "

8/3/2008 4:37:30 PM

From the Milwaukee JS blog

Quote :

" Green Bay -- The Green Bay Packers are through negotiating with quarterback Brett Favre on a marketing deal and they are anticipating him reporting for training camp Monday and being on the field as soon as he passes his physical, a Packers source said. Another source close to the club, said that the Packers have agreed to allow Favre to compete with Aaron Rodgers for the starting job and he won't necessarily be the backup this season. Trade talks with Favre have not advanced and coach Mike McCarthy is expected to come up with a plan that will split the practice repetitions with Rodgers. The Packers released this statement from president Mark Murphy: "Sixteen years after Brett Favre came to the Packers, he is returning for a seventeenth season. He has had a great career with our organization and although we built this year around the assumption that Brett meant what he said about retiring, Brett is coming back. We will welcome him back and turn this situation to our advantage. "Frankly, Brett's change of mind put us in a very difficult spot. We now will revise many actions and assumptions about our long-term future, all predicated on Brett's decision last March to retire. As a result of his decision, we invested considerably in a new and different future without Brett and we were obviously moving in that direction. That's why this wasn't easy. Having crossed the Rubicon once when Brett decided to retire, it's very difficult to reorient our plans and cross it again in the opposite direction - but we'll put this to our advantage. "Brett will be in camp tomorrow. Although there has been uncertainty regarding Brett's return, Ted Thompson and Coach McCarthy had previously discussed this and have had a plan in place. Coach McCarthy will talk to the team and the quarterbacks about the plan moving forward, and after he has done that we will share it publicly. "No matter what, I look forward to another successful season for the Packers and our fans. This has been a tough situation, but the Packers will make the most of it." McCarthy is expected to address the quaerterback situation after the scrimmage tonight. "

My money is on Favre being traded by Friday

8/3/2008 5:10:34 PM

he looks retarded in this pic

8/4/2008 6:09:08 AM

Quote :

"oh i'm sorry a comment shrike made in response to quinn being a moron dictated the argument i have to follow for the next 50 posts"

You would think with as much as these people are on the internet that they wouldnt get trolled so easy.

Oh well , maybe next year. Panther fans should be used to that phrase.


That line should be good for another 2 page of bickering.

Shrike now is your time to shine!

8/4/2008 7:59:23 AM

Oh good, the cameras are here... I think I am going to get what I want...

I bet he took a huge shit on the plane

[Edited on August 4, 2008 at 8:39 AM. Reason : w]

8/4/2008 8:39:03 AM

this is so ridiculous, this whole thing. favre's really making an idiot of himself.

8/4/2008 9:26:18 AM

8/4/2008 9:27:44 AM

Poor aaron rodgers.

I can't imagine favre's teammates are gonna be able to trust him much after this whole fiasco.

I wish the packers would just trade his ass to the vikings so we can stop hearing about this shit 24/7

8/4/2008 9:49:34 AM

Dear Ganesh,

Please send Favre to the Jets.

Thanks in advance,
Sru

8/4/2008 10:07:47 AM

Quote :

"Brett Favre might be back with the Packers, but according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and an unnamed source, the team contacted the Vikings as recently as Friday to let them know that Favre could still be had in a trade. The report indicates that the Vikings would only be willing to part with a fourth of fifth round draft pick for the Packers great."

Still, all speculation but it would be sweet.

8/4/2008 10:39:09 AM

Quote :

"this is so ridiculous, this whole thing. favre's really making an idiot of himself. "

not really, he is getting what he wants

8/4/2008 12:45:51 PM

^remains to be seen

8/4/2008 12:49:48 PM

How is he making an idiot of himself? If he wants to play he wants to play. You cant fault him for that.

Sure he shouldn't have retired earlier in the year. Obviously he is man enough to admit he made a mistake. That's all you could ask out of anyone. A simple " i was wrong, lets move on" is all that is required. He doesn't owe the packers franchise to stay retired.

It's ok to be wrong. Kind of like how Shrike thinks steve smith is a top 5 reciever. Its OK for him to be wrong.

8/4/2008 1:28:02 PM

It's the boy who cried wolf story.

Next year this will happen and the Packers will not hold on to him, if they even do this year.

oh, and STEVE SMITH RULLLLEEEES

8/4/2008 1:29:50 PM

^^I agree with that... now it's the packers who are looking like idiots. If you want to move on, then move the fuck on. Take your 4th round pick and suck it up.

Now they want to make Favre sit (why again? he went to the NFC championship last year), and not have him play for anyone else.

8/4/2008 1:42:04 PM

Quote :

"Sure he shouldn't have retired earlier in the year. Obviously he isn't man enough to admit he made a mistake. That's all you could ask out of anyone. A simple " i was wrong, lets move on" is all that is required. He doesn't owe the packers franchise to stay retired."

Unfortunately for Favre, or your perception of him, part of being man enough to admit a mistake is accepting the consequences.

For example, this is how men admit mistakes,

Quote :

""I'm not going to get into who's right, who's wrong. I'm completely wrong," Smith said. "It was an asinine decision. And I'll move forward better than I probably have ever had to. It's the first time in my life that I really haven't forgiven myself." "I will not put myself into a position where I have to defend myself, to state my side of the story. There's no side," Smith said. "There's only one side, a lack of judgment on my part. That's really all I have to say. I have no excuse. All I have is the opportunity to gain the respect of my fans, to gain the respect of my family, gain the respect of my co-workers and gain the respect of the organization." "I'm a fallen man. I'm a man that made a mistake," Smith said. "I plan to mend the bridges that I've burned and help rebuild the bridge, if I need to all by myself.""

Remorse and acceptance, not belligerence.

[Edited on August 4, 2008 at 2:41 PM. Reason : :]

8/4/2008 2:34:37 PM

^

HAHAHAHAHA

NOT BITING

YOU CANT TROLL ME SON

8/4/2008 6:10:22 PM

Quote :

"I agree with that... now it's the packers who are looking like idiots. If you want to move on, then move the fuck on. Take your 4th round pick and suck it up."

They are in a bad situation but are going to take the blame regardless. It will be a poor fallout if Arod doesnt produce. I think he is decent, but you never know what will happen.

8/4/2008 6:15:04 PM

If Favre were to punch a teammate on one knee in the face, I'm sure we'd get a few crocodile tears and an "I'm so sorry" out of him too.

But you know what a better alternative would have been? Being capable of showing enough self-restraint not to punch someone in the face.

8/4/2008 6:16:04 PM

Favre would've said he was sorry in January then around July he would've renegged...until the next offseason...rinse repeat

honestly though, Smith and Favre are both very passionate about playing football...Favre cries and can't make up his mind, Smith punches teammates

8/4/2008 6:27:59 PM

^well said

'passionate'

8/4/2008 6:39:28 PM