^Thing is State wasn't competitive in any of the last three games... well maybe Pitt.

Wake could have obliterated us if not for mistakes on their end. Their mistakes doesn't mean we are competitive. Duke marched down the field every possession, they got close to 500 passing yards. How were we competitive in that game?

10/13/2009 1:10:26 PM

^ just because we have a bad D doesnt' mean we aren't competetive, i think most people would define competetive as the score being close. All of our losses (minus the two gift TD's) came down to not only one score, but us actually having a play to tie/win the game.

listening to the experts have fueled the disappointment both in BBall and Fball. I for one will never make the mistake again of believing these idiots when they pick conference pecking order, case in point, Jeff Gravely over at WRAL admitted he submitted a mistake in his AP poll voting.

So far, as others have said, we've done exactly what TOB said we'd do, how much more prescient and clairvoyant do you want the guy to be: We are competetive, we don't quit, but we aren't a very good "team".

I actually saw the game against last night, painfully, and the number of negative plays for duke, that turned not only into positive plays, but first downs and big gains was mind numbing.

To the coaches' credit, and in direct response to this FAIL of a thread, we finally figured Duke out, but those two damn punts that resulted in TD's finished us off.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 1:22 PM. Reason : a]

10/13/2009 1:20:31 PM

We were not competitive against Duke. At all.

10/13/2009 1:28:12 PM

Quote :

"^Thing is State wasn't competitive in any of the last three games... well maybe Pitt."

Maybe Pitt? Maybe? Uh, did we not win that game?

This doesn't even make sense.

10/13/2009 1:41:38 PM

some would argue winning against pitt fell more on their fuck ups and less on our play. I think that's his point.

Not that i think he's right but that's what he's getting at.

oh and

im not sure if anyone has noticed . ...

Quote :

"Every step forward was met my two steps backward of horrible penalties and overall lack of discipline"

is still very much a part of NC State football.

10/13/2009 1:50:33 PM

Quote :

"how much more prescient and clairvoyant do you want the guy to be: We are competetive, we don't quit, but we aren't a very good "team"."

I think it is a good thing that he's being honest about it, but it starts to get a little tired after hearing if for 3 straight weeks and not seeing any improvement. We are regressing if anything. At what point does the "we aren't a very good team" excuse coming from the head coach become reflective of his coaching abilities?

10/13/2009 3:28:42 PM

Quote :

"By year 3 the CTC left us nothing excuse gets old."

This isn't basketball. Turnarounds don't happen over night. I find it funny that some of the people that want to give Sidney Lowe more time want TOB gone.

How dare O'Brien he is not winning with his redshirt freshmen playing significant minutes!

10/13/2009 3:34:10 PM

Quote :

"Vtech - let's just prepare for a moment of silence in the swamp for us."

swamp? wtf does that mean. last time i checked neither raleigh or blackburg was surrounded by swamps.


???

10/13/2009 3:49:58 PM

swamp can be used to mean a troublesome situation

10/13/2009 3:53:49 PM

Quote :

"How dare O'Brien he is not winning with his redshirt freshmen playing significant minutes!"

Since he's the coach and recruited said freshmen, who TOB has stated have missed tackles and therefore have cost us ballgames, I have to ask, ultimately whose fault is that? Weren't the coaches able to tell in film and in person whether these recruits can tackle or not? The worst part is that coach claimed during his radio show that we did everything imaginable against Duke, and if his staff cannot come up with a a plan or adjustments to stop fucking Duke, then what hope should anyone have for the rest of the season?

The bigger problem is that these freshmen are not being put in a position to win. The blame belongs with the players and the coaches, not one or the other. It's a total team effort.

10/13/2009 4:00:52 PM

So we're going to blame this on red shirt freshman? Red shirt freshman wide receivers managed to find the seams in our zone.

We lost to Duke. Duke, the perenial bottom dweller in Ia football. Duke who lost to Richmond to start the season. Are people really trying to argue that Duke, whom we have out recruited, is some how more talented than us?

10/13/2009 4:14:45 PM

Quote :

"Don Beebe I think it is a good thing that he's being honest about it, but it starts to get a little tired after hearing if for 3 straight weeks and not seeing any improvement. We are regressing if anything. At what point does the "we aren't a very good team" excuse coming from the head coach become reflective of his coaching abilities?"

This is just a damn'd if you do, damn'd if you don't situation. TOB calls out himself and other coaches and sometimes calls out players (mildly). With him i don't think its coach speak, he's just honestly answering a question that some doofus reporter asked him. I know it gets tiring hearing the answer, but have you ever thought about that maybe that really is the answer. Doesn't matter what the coach does.

So you ask the rhetorical "At what point..." What if TOB is a just a damn awesome ass coach, who designs game winning plays both awake and asleep but we just don't have the personnel to implement it, NO MATTER what scheme, package we throw out there? None of that at all is a reflection of whether the man can coach. Or even if Archer is any good.

Your question assumes we have players who are capable of everything on a football field from both an athletic and instinctive aspect but are not coached to reach that potential, right?

10/13/2009 4:21:46 PM

You coach for what you have, not what you dream to have.

10/13/2009 4:22:53 PM

^ and if you don't have enough, you lose right?

10/13/2009 4:26:11 PM

Being predictable as hell on the defensive scheme is not good coaching.

10/13/2009 4:30:36 PM

^ agree completely.

In the first half ( I couldn't re-watch the 2nd), we basically guessed wrong each time. When we blitzed they 3-step dropped. When we weren't blitzing, they had max protect. And from where we blitzed, they had a receiver there in that part of the field or a RB out in the flat. (that's just good coaching on Duke's part; you do realize the other team doesn't have to call plays that make our team look good right?)

10/13/2009 4:35:14 PM

Have you bothered to read Than Lewis's quotes on our defense? They knew what was coming every single time and made adjustments to it. That right there is a failure of Archer.

10/13/2009 4:38:40 PM

Quote :

"What if TOB is a just a damn awesome ass coach, who designs game winning plays both awake and asleep but we just don't have the personnel to implement it, NO MATTER what scheme, package we throw out there? None of that at all is a reflection of whether the man can coach. Or even if Archer is any good."

If you are going to ask this question then you would be mistakenly assuming that Duke has better personnel than we do. He got out coached this week and last week and it's as simple as that.

10/13/2009 4:40:52 PM

He got outcoached 2 weeks ago by the only coach of a North Carolina school to ever play in a BCS bowl

Last week, he got out-coached offensively by the same guy who trained SB-winning QBs Peyton and Eli Manning when they were in college

10/13/2009 4:42:37 PM

You mean the same awesome coach who lost to Richmond and the same awesome coaches we didn't have a problem beating last year?

We got our asses handed to us by teams with inferior talent. It's as simple as that.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:45 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 4:45:33 PM

Quote :

"You coach for what you have, not what you dream to have."

Well, From the 07 and 08 classes, we have 3 DB's left out of 8 that were signed. Go back and count Chuck's last class and we have 4 out of 11. Go back one more and we have 4 of 13.

Morgan, Byers, Johnson, and Wolff. And Bobby Floyd.

Add Rashard Smith and Brandon Bishop as true freshman.


I'm not saying that TOB isn't the head coach and everything is ultimately his responsibility, but still, nc state shit.

10/13/2009 4:45:43 PM

Quote :

"Well, From the 07 and 08 classes, we have 3 DB's left out of 8 that were signed. Go back and count Chuck's last class and we have 4 out of 11. Go back one more and we have 4 of 13. Morgan, Byers, Johnson, and Wolff. And Bobby Floyd. Add Rashard Smith and Brandon Bishop as true freshman. I'm not saying that TOB isn't the head coach and everything is ultimately his responsibility, but still, nc state shit."

Maybe if O'Brien didn't play his "my way or the highway" bullshit with the kids and worked with them we wouldn't be having these problems in the secondary. Plus, with us being weak in the secondary, maybe the coaching staff should call plays to help those kids out, craft schemes to prevent teams from exposing our secondary.

Another idea would be to move Brandon Barnes over from languishing 4th in line at running back over to play the secondary, where he played in high school.

10/13/2009 4:48:17 PM

Quote :

"You mean the same awesome coach who lost to Richmond and the same awesome coaches we didn't have a problem beating last year?"

yeah thats right, because the transitive property doesnt work in football...he got outcoached...i think we have more talent than both teams...although honestly our back 7 isnt very talented

Quote :

"Maybe if O'Brien didn't play his "my way or the highway" bullshit with the kids and worked with them we wouldn't be having these problems in the secondary."

oh lord...maybe if the inmates ran the asylum we could bring back amato blah blah balh

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:49 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 4:48:18 PM

^^^^^ That's right. And he'll be out coached again. Also he'll probably out coach both of them again at some point in his career. I think TOBs a good coach. Anyone who says otherwise just need to take a look at what he did at BC. The past couple of weeks however has just been ugly.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM. Reason : wow fast moving thread now]

10/13/2009 4:48:59 PM

Quote :

"yeah thats right, because the transitive property doesnt work in football...he got outcoached...i think we have more talent than both teams...although honestly our back 7 isnt very talented"

It ain't the goddamned transitive property. The point is, NC State lost to two bad teams in back to back weeks and has made no signs of improving, in fact, we are regressing as a team.

Quote :

"oh lord...maybe if the inmates ran the asylum we could bring back amato blah blah balh"

I never said that. These kids are 18-22 years old. They are young and immature and part of being a coach is working with them. When he first came in, instead of just kicking people off the team he could have tried working with them. He was accused of the same thing at Boston College.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:54 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 4:49:24 PM

its transitive when you assert we shouldve beaten them based on beating them last year

and yeah we lost to bad teams...i'd call them average teams...just like us...we're an average team

hey an average team beat an average team...wow ACC football, its faaaaaantastic

10/13/2009 4:50:42 PM

Quote :

"its transitive when you assert we shouldve beaten them based on beating them last year and yeah we lost to bad teams...i'd call them average teams...just like us...we're an average team hey an average team beat an average team...wow ACC football, its faaaaaantastic"

No you donkey. I didn't assert that because we beat them last year we should have beat them this year. I made the point that being out coached by a coach who coached in a BCS game and a coach who developed a SB MVP quarterback is not a valid excuse.

Also, Duke is still one of the worst goddamned teams in Div Ia football. There is no avoiding that. We got our asses beat by Duke at home.

10/13/2009 4:52:31 PM

yeah i think we all know that duke is a bad program and we lost to them

btw, he developed TWO Super Bowl MVP winning QBs

i'm trying to give a little perspective on other QBs that Cutcliff has coached...ie, our secondary sucks, but they don't suck THAT bad...Lewis is a good QB and they had a great gameplan to exploit our young secondary

did you see how bad the Dolphins made the Jets defense look last night based on gameplan and schemes? The Jets have one of the top defenses in the NFL but you wouldnt know it just from watching last night's game

10/13/2009 4:53:42 PM

Wake's 1st in the Division, currently. I know they're not a good team, but they're not a bad team, either.

10/13/2009 4:54:17 PM

^^ Outcoached is a bit of a stretch. Maybe man for man, Duke doesn't have the athletes that we do, but that is of course, assuming that Duke doesn't recruit and Wake doesn't recruit right, Wake is the same team it was 10 years ago and so is Duke for that matter? They can NeeeeeVER get better

However, what we do know is that Riley Skinner and Thad Lewis put up better numbers than RW. Duke's receivers didn't drop balls, neither did Wake's.

The weak before people were calling for Petercuskie to be fired because Cjaowski can't kick a touchback and we had all these Amato-esque penalties and lo and behold, we get a kickoff return for a touchdown and we had NO, ZERO penalties. Where is the return favor and acknowledgement of the coaches correcting something that they have control over?? What happened to Byers and Owens on the punts won't happen for 10 years and maybe never in our lifetime twice in a game again.

10/13/2009 4:54:41 PM

duke dropped a ton of balls. a sure touchdown, for one.

10/13/2009 4:57:01 PM

FIRE BILL BELICHIK

10/13/2009 4:58:04 PM

^ the motherfucker was 40/50 -> 80%

10/13/2009 4:58:27 PM

Yeah I saw a bunch of dropped passes by Duke

^ probably why he wasn't 50 of 50


[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 4:59 PM. Reason : []

10/13/2009 4:58:39 PM

Quote :

"However, what we do know is that Riley Skinner and Thad Lewis put up better numbers than RW. Duke's receivers didn't drop balls, neither did Wake's."

Thad Lewis was 40-50 and would have been 45-50 had his players not dropped some passes. Do you want to know why he was that good? It's because we didn't have defenders with in three yards of his recievers all day until well after they caught the ball. That falls on the coaches.

Duke continually lined up on offense, looked at our defense, then audibled, while the defense did absolutely nothing to change up and killed us with the same 5 yard routes all day long. Archer and his crew of defensive coaches should be ashamed of themselves.

Quote :

"The weak before people were calling for Petercuskie to be fired because Cjaowski can't kick a touchback and we had all these Amato-esque penalties and lo and behold, we get a kickoff return for a touchdown and we had NO, ZERO penalties. Where is the return favor and acknowledgement of the coaches correcting something that they have control over?? What happened to Byers and Owens on the punts won't happen for 10 years and maybe never in our lifetime twice in a game again."

Our special teams still suck. We aren't correcting these fundamental errors, despite O'Brien being a no frills fundamental coach.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:00 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 4:59:22 PM

Quote :

"It's because we didn't have defenders with in three yards of his recievers all day until well after they caught the ball. That falls on the coaches. "

Agreed

However, when we did have defenders near the receivers, they missed tackles. That falls on the players.

Teams win, teams lose.

10/13/2009 5:00:42 PM

Quote :

"Maybe if O'Brien didn't play his "my way or the highway" bullshit with the kids and worked with them we wouldn't be having these problems in the secondary."

That might apply to two of the guys that are gone. Dom Ellis and Gary Grant.

10/13/2009 5:01:20 PM

Quote :

"Agreed However, when we did have defenders near the receivers, they missed tackles. That falls on the players. Teams win, teams lose."

I'm honestly starting to think our defensive scheme is not not prevent catches, rather just tackle once the catch has been made. The goddamned prevent defense that in actuality is the prevent the win defense. I'd rather our secondary make plays on the ball then wait for the other team to catch it to do something.

Quote :

"That might apply to two of the guys that are gone. Dom Ellis and Gary Grant."

That applies to more than those two. I just don't feel like looking back at every player O'Brien has run off the team.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 5:02:47 PM

I dunno, the way they've been tackling lately is just as much coaching as it is players. There hasn't seemed to have been any improvement from the Pitt game through the Duke game in the players obvious tackling inabilities. THAT lies on the coaches, there should at least be some improvement, if only from the continual repetition at practice.

10/13/2009 5:03:18 PM

A 4-3 pass rush assumes that people will make tackles...you rely on your front 4 for pressure, and your linebackers and d-backs to not get beat deep...when our front 4 got a successful pass rush (mainly in the Wake game), we did good things

But as of right now, if a team sets out to dink and dunk us for 4-6 yard gains on short passes, we can't stop them

^I mean, ultimately its the coaches job to prepare the players and get them ready, but at the same time, if you constantly tell a player to wrap somebody up and don't give up til the whistle blows, and then they come with weak arm tackles, plenty of that falls on the player

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 5:04:29 PM

Quote :

"^^ Outcoached is a bit of a stretch. Maybe man for man, Duke doesn't have the athletes that we do, but that is of course, assuming that Duke doesn't recruit and Wake doesn't recruit right, Wake is the same team it was 10 years ago and so is Duke for that matter? They can NeeeeeVER get better "

youre right, they do recruit - not as well as nc state

i like how we make such a big deal about beating miami and north carolina and doing star run downs of those teams afterwords

well, we just our asses handed to us by wake and duke. anyone care to do a run down of the three teams' depth charts by stars?

10/13/2009 5:05:27 PM

i think we've missed less tackles, they've just been at much more inopportune times.

10/13/2009 5:06:12 PM

you'll be hard pressed to win a football game when the other team knows what you're going to do before the snap. Thad Lewis admitted in an interview that he knew the plays we were running before the snap. Archer's defense got annihilated for most of the game. A DC worth his shit would have noticed this and mixed it up before the 4th quarter.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:07 PM. Reason : []

10/13/2009 5:06:38 PM

yeah in fairness, both defenses were getting outplayed in the first half

the difference is, Duke made halftime adjustments

10/13/2009 5:07:30 PM

Quote :

"A 4-3 pass rush assumes that people will make tackles...you rely on your front 4 for pressure, and your linebackers and d-backs to not get beat deep...when our front 4 got a successful pass rush (mainly in the Wake game), we did good things But as of right now, if a team sets out to dink and dunk us for 4-6 yard gains on short passes, we can't stop them"

A great way to prevent those dink and dunks against us, which is the proven way to beat the bullshit prevent defense, is to get pressure on the quarterback and to jam the receivers coming off the line to fuck up the timing. It's obvious the current defensive schemes aren't working, what's the harm in sending in the Blitz?

UNC has finally realized they don't have the talent yet to play the prevent zone and have since gone to a pressure defense and good their defense is starting to look much better.

10/13/2009 5:07:35 PM

Quote :

"But as of right now, if a team sets out to dink and dunk us for 4-6 yard gains on short passes, we can't stop them"

that's because we play 10 yards off them every single down.

10/13/2009 5:10:29 PM

^ very good point nutsmackr, i kept looking at the scheme and going, why aren't we doing some bumping at the line.

Also our CB's aren't playing their man-to-man schemes right. DeAndre Morgan should have never let his man get inside of him on that slant TD.

10/13/2009 5:10:30 PM

I don't remember much man at all. I remember Duke's receivers finding the seams in our zone and exploiting them.

10/13/2009 5:11:29 PM

Quote :

"what's the harm in sending in the Blitz?"

because if you send the blitz all you're limiting is the deep pass play...do you know what good its going to do to send 5 or 6 rushers on a play instead of the normal 4? its gonna mean the QB is now throwing quick routes against a 5-6 man secondary instead of a 7 man secondary...ie, we get beat even worse

you can't blitz effectively unless you have a good secondary...basic football...our secondary sucks...why the hell are we going to blitz more players?

QB's will be like "hey look they're blitzing 2 linebackers again...sweet now I'll have simple pass completions to backs and tight ends all day, woo hoo!"

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/13/2009 5:12:26 PM

not if you jam receivers

This is what Amato's defenses did so well.

[Edited on October 13, 2009 at 5:15 PM. Reason : []

10/13/2009 5:14:43 PM