^^^^
As I said, I haven't read the thread. So my apologies if my questions are an annoyance, and no hard feelings if you don't care to respond. I appreciate your responses though. I'm honestly not trying to be an asshole with my comments.

Would there really be no wordly evidence to change your mind? Nothing at all? Only a personal message from God? Then how do you reconcile your mirror image, presenting the same justification, but from another faith?

7/5/2011 3:52:15 PM

Quote :

"I wouldn't bring it up, but Leon has already mentioned if aliens came to earth, he would assume deception...."

I was wrong in that respect again (see Barnes quote on Gen 1), but I don't pander over extra terrestrial life, and I doubt that traveling to Earth would be part of the will of God, but like I said I'm not here to pander over things not in scripture.

7/5/2011 3:57:39 PM

And how would you know that a message from God wasn't also a deception? Oh wait...

7/5/2011 4:09:13 PM

According to scripture:

"1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

1 John 4

7/5/2011 5:13:18 PM

Let me see if I understand what you're quoting.

We can believe that an entity is God if it claims to agree with the basic tenet of Christianity?

7/5/2011 5:50:42 PM

What he's trying to say is that those that profess (and live) what Christ taught are then Christ-like, and thus 'anointed' and saved. Thus, true Christians are 'of God.'

7/5/2011 8:16:38 PM

Quote :

"What he's trying to say is that those that profess (and live) what Christ taught are then Christ-like, and thus 'anointed' and saved. Thus, true Christians are 'of God.'"

What? The question was how do you differentiate the evil spirits from the good ones? The response seemed to be "well the good ones will tell you X." Are the bad ones not allowed to tell you X?

My question is: How do you differentiate between imagined spirits and non-imagined spirits? You must admit that it's possible to hallucinate or more likely remember something that didn't really happen but conforms to your viewpoint. Humans do this constantly. How do you know when a spirit is talking to you that you're not imagining it or when you're remembering such an encounter that it's not a false memory?

Also, what in the hell did what chembob say have to do with what we were currently discussing?

7/5/2011 8:50:43 PM

^^This is certainly a valid point, but what anoints and saves the saints is faith, not works.

"9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. "

Romans 10.

Yet we are also reminded of the fact that without Christlike works and a living of the Gospel faith is dead, and how can one who is saved fight against good works in the name and manner of Christ, surely doing so would be knowing what is good, but working what is evil. I actually talked with some Mormons today about this fact. Yet they said salvation is of works and faith, whereas salvation comes from faith, and faith leads to works.

"14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

James 2

Now here we see that a professed faith is the means of salvation but if the professed faith yields no change in works, than how can it be said that the faith is able to save being false.

"1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

2 Timothy 3

The form of godliness is false faith, an outward profession with no inward change in works. This is one of the main ways to recognize those who call themselves saints but are false.

"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. "

Matthew 7

Now this stands are a good indicator of false prophets. For example, if one claimed to be the Vicar of Jesus Christ and infallible but then said this:

"It is beyond question that he [the pope] can err even in matters touching the faith. He does this when he teaches heresy by his own judgement or decretal. In truth, many Roman Pontiffs were heretics."

-Pope Adrian VI, 1523

Then you could probably take a shot in the dark and say that the former Roman Pontiffs [Popes] were lying or he is lying.


I'm still waiting for that testimony The E Man, though certainly I would be a fool to think I could demand it, I adjure you in the name of Jesus Christ to speak your testimony to men.

[Edited on July 5, 2011 at 9:11 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2011 9:11:37 PM

Quote :

"Also, what in the hell did what chembob say have to do with what we were currently discussing?"

He was contributing to the discussion.

Quote :

"My question is: How do you differentiate between imagined spirits and non-imagined spirits? You must admit that it's possible to hallucinate or more likely remember something that didn't really happen but conforms to your viewpoint. Humans do this constantly. How do you know when a spirit is talking to you that you're not imagining it or when you're remembering such an encounter that it's not a false memory?"

I certainly wouldn't know how to answer this. I for one would say it is a long shot for anyone to receive contact from a spirit of God in this time frame.

"1The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. "

Matt 16


God normally only contacts with a Spirit when it is the greatest method for his will, as with the conversion of Saul.

7/5/2011 9:16:07 PM

^^Didn't say anything in respect to works versus faith. I daresay it is not even limited to Christianity to believe that works and deeds are worth nothing if they have no real motive of any kind.

For one to live as Christ did and profess what Christ taught and not believe in Christ, that is hardly sustainable. One requires the other.

7/5/2011 9:55:33 PM

I must've looked to far into what you were saying which was valid. I was just worried because many Christian denominations believe in justification by works.

[Edited on July 5, 2011 at 9:59 PM. Reason : ]

7/5/2011 9:57:37 PM

Because it makes damned sense if the world was just.

How you treat others really is the only thing worth caring about, not whether you really really really hard believe in magic Jesus. I respect the theists that don't think I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in fairy tales.

7/6/2011 12:52:27 AM

Quote :

"I respect the theists that don't think I'm going to Hell because I don't believe in fairy tales. "

It is better for you to hate me and hear the Gospel, than for me to tell you lies and you to respect me.

7/6/2011 12:58:53 AM

Quote :

"It is better for you to hate me and hear the Gospel, than for me to tell you lies and you to respect me."

Try to see it from my perspective. There is no afterlife. I have a finite number of days on this planet and then I no longer exist, just like everyone else. What you do with this time is ultimately important, especially as it impacts myself and other people that have similarly limited times.

I get that you think I have a soul and preaching the Good Word may one day save me, but the only thing that I'm convinced of is you've lost sight of what's really important (the here and now, and other people) for an eternity that doesn't exist for you. It's just wishful thinking for people who are afraid to no longer exist.

How I dealt with fear of death: It's inevitable. Fearing the inevitable is pointless. No amount of hand-wringing or praying really hard is going to stop you from dying. That's really what religion promises, and they are empty promises. Besides, I didn't mind not existing before I was born, I probably won't mind not existing after I die.

7/6/2011 1:09:34 AM

Quote :

"I get that you think I have a soul and preaching the Good Word may one day save me, but the only thing that I'm convinced of is you've lost sight of what's really important (the here and now, and other people) for an eternity that doesn't exist for you. It's just wishful thinking for people who are afraid to no longer exist"

If I live after the manner of the Gospel will I ever forget about "the here and now, and other people?"

Such harsh judgement you pass upon me to say I am exist after a manner of wickedness. Did I become a saint to aid other saints?

"43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. "

Matt 5

Christ did not call the saints to form some inner circle where they only help the saints.

God extended his love to us that righteousness and love should abound, not that judgement and persecution should abound.
"15Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us. 20If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. "

1 John

7/6/2011 1:21:41 AM

Quote :

"You can't use reason when discussing religion or try to use logic with anyone who is religious. Logic and Religion are absolute oxymorons."

spoken like a true militant atheist.

Quote :

"Indeed, with the proliferation of modeling and simulation tools in the sciences, this statement is more wrong today than it has ever."

not really. thanks for playing.

7/6/2011 12:38:35 PM

lol...militant atheist.gif

7/6/2011 1:39:48 PM

Quote :

"spoken like a true militant atheist"

Militant atheist?? I’m just stating the facts. I have no hostility towards religion.

What I said earlier was absolutely true. Logic and religion are oxymoron’s.

By believing in the bible literally, you are absolutely not thinking logically. The stories in the bible frequently break all laws of physics. If we cannot agree on the simple truth and fact of physics, then we cannot have a debate that uses any sort of logic or reason. You play in a pretend world. I simply cannot reason with something that is pretend.

7/6/2011 2:45:26 PM

riiiiiiiiiiight. keep telling yourself that.

7/6/2011 3:18:42 PM

^^

Quote :

"Spoken like a true militant atheist someone who didn't read the book"

At times I grow weary of people making very large claims and not backing it up with anything. I back my claims up with scripture, if you want to be considered as anything more than an internet opinion I recommend you do the same.

7/6/2011 4:33:19 PM

look, I'm not 100% against you here, but surely you see the folly of using scripture to back up... scripture

7/6/2011 4:33:58 PM

Well, I'm not trying to justify the age of the Earth, either. I merely point out the fact that many misconceptions people have about scripture is just that; misconception.

7/6/2011 4:35:40 PM

What does God need with a starship?

7/6/2011 4:45:50 PM

7/6/2011 4:49:48 PM

I have absolutely read the book. That's what convinced me out of Christianity.

I'm not going to sit around quoting scripture like I have some authority on it. I found most people who quote it, really have no real understanding of it themselves. It's not "proof" of anything. Why would I use it to try to debate it. I could quote you something and tell you how it breaks all laws of reason and then you will simply qoute another line to some how "prove" it actually happened. I know this game.

7/6/2011 7:18:35 PM

So what you're saying is you'll take something out of context then I'll provide the full context and the commentary and you'll say I'm wrong? Let's try this, though I'm not sure how you can denounce a book that you apparently didn't understand if you "don't have any authority" to quote it.

7/6/2011 7:52:03 PM

Quote :

"I have absolutely read the book. That's what convinced me out of Christianity. "

it's pretty sad that you were convinced by strawmen and passages out of context. really.

7/6/2011 8:12:41 PM

Christians, what justification for your religious beliefs could not also be said about a follower of Islam? I'm not speaking in reference to your preference or personal experience, but on a more basic level. For example, Christians have the Bible. The analogous justification for belief in Islam is the Quran. In this context, what justification is uniquely Christian?

7/6/2011 9:28:32 PM

^^^ & ^^ Very weak assumption on your part assuming I would quote something out of context, but if that makes you feel better about me on things so be it. What makes your interpretation of the bible right and mine wrong. Especially since I have not stated any passages or explained my interpretation of any scripture. Your statements are completely unfounded. What makes you so certain your literal understanding of the bible is accurate?


^ Extremely well put and thought out question.




[Edited on July 6, 2011 at 9:53 PM. Reason : .]

7/6/2011 9:34:18 PM

Quote :

"it's pretty sad that you were convinced by strawmen and passages out of context. really."

How the hell do you know that?

7/6/2011 9:48:40 PM

Quote :

"The analogous justification for belief in Islam is the Quran. In this context, what justification is uniquely Christian?"

Christianity has a savior, in Islam you have to save yourself.

Quote :

"Very weak assumption on your part assuming I would quote something out of context, but if that makes you feel better about me on things so be it. What makes your interpretation of the bible right and mine wrong. Especially since I have not stated any passages or explained my interpretation of any scripture. Your statements are completely unfounded, much like your faith. What makes you so certain your literal understanding of the bible is accurate?"

My understanding of the word of God is not merely based upon my interpretation our understanding of things in the Bible are always growing, just as when you read you may think something means one thing when a clearer and more sound definition may mean another. It's like when the Catholics say that a passage about fire means purgatory, when in fact it is about the foundation of Jesus Christ, which is inline with the entire Bible, instead of just the one line.

My apologies if I offended you, but since you said you had no authority, and spoke of quoting lines, I could only assume you would be doing so out of context. My faith has a very sound foundation in Jesus Christ.

Now guys, when I say the Bible is true in all respects this does not mean that everything is literal, some things are according to prophecy, meant to mean something else, a clear example of this is the beast of Revelation, obviously the Anti Christ is not going to be a dragon, but if we look back into prophecy of Daniel and Isaiah we see references that correspond with this type of language. The idea is that when we read the word we don't bring our own interpretations into it, but let it establish the foundation, then build upon itself, because it is in itself complete without our interpretation. I feel my understanding of the Bible is accurate because it stems from other facets of the Bible. When people write commentary, they don't just say, well this passage sounds like it means this. They look at the entire book as a whole and see where the theme is developed.

7/6/2011 10:01:32 PM

Quote :

"Very weak assumption on your part assuming I would quote something out of context, but if that makes you feel better about me on things so be it"

Would you care to tell the parts your speaking of?

7/6/2011 10:09:13 PM

Quote :

"Christianity has a savior, in Islam you have to save yourself."

That doesn't really address my question. You point out a difference between the two religions, just as Catholicism differs from other Christian denominations in some specific beliefs. Take a step back. What is the justification used to put forth, describe, and defend the idea that Christianity involved a savior. I gather that the Bible is one justification - are there other TYPES of justification, specifically other types of justification that don't have an analogous presence in Islam?

7/6/2011 10:25:49 PM

Are you saying are their other physical justifications that are present in Christianity that aren't present in Islam? If so, I couldn't really speak on that because my knowledge of the Quran is very limited. I don't really know what type of justification you're talking about.

7/6/2011 10:34:49 PM

Here is the same question stated another way: If I asked you "Why do you believe what you believe?", how would you respond? I took the leap of saying that one of your possible responses (i.e. your justification) would be something along the lines of "I read the Bible. I believe what I read to be true." Perhaps you would also respond with something along the lines of "I listened to a preacher talk about Christianity. I believe what he said." If I asked a Muslim the same question, I believe the extent of the possible responses would be essentially the same, replacing Bible with Quran, etc. Can you point to a type of response that would be unique to Christianity?

7/6/2011 11:00:55 PM

omg thx renegadegirl~♥

7/6/2011 11:05:12 PM

I guess the answer to that would be "I believe I cannot save myself with works." A rather difficult question to answer, because it has to do with the manner of faith. I could say however, I believe God wanted us to understand and know his will and not just to blindly follow him, without justification, but this also falls back upon the Bible for support.

7/6/2011 11:24:56 PM

Quote :

"Very weak assumption on your part assuming I would quote something out of context"

Where did I say that YOU took stuff out of context? If you can't read simple sentences, then it's hilarious that you were swayed by Dawkins. Sounds like you'll believe whatever you are told

Quote :

"How the hell do you know that?"

Because I've read several Dawkins arguments and that's what they are. They essentially boil down to Dawkins declaring that God doesn't exist because He doesn't do what Dawkins wants him to do based on Dawkins' strawman interpretation of the Bible.

7/7/2011 3:44:20 AM

Oh, I thought she was saying she had absolutely read the bible. I didn't see dawkins or his books mentioned in this page.

7/7/2011 8:06:32 AM

Quote :

"Because I've read several Dawkins arguments and that's what they are. They essentially boil down to Dawkins declaring that God doesn't exist because He doesn't do what Dawkins wants him to do based on Dawkins' strawman interpretation of the Bible. "

You're completely wrong. From where exactly have you read "Dawkins arguments?"

The God Delusion's main case is infinite regress (The Ultimate 747 Gambit) + 'evolution means we don't need a supernatural explanation for the complexity of life'. The Problem of Evil is ancillary to the argument. You're a fucking moron.

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 8:58 AM. Reason : .]

7/7/2011 8:57:35 AM

I guess it's nice to believe a form of Christianity that was never articulated so that whatever people say about it can be wrong. It even evolves the superpower to mutate whenever someone points out something wrong with it!

This is for burro, not Leon btw.

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 9:12 AM. Reason : ]

7/7/2011 9:11:49 AM

I am not a saint nor is anyone here on Earth. I was a baby when I was baptized and I was in middle school when I was confirmed. The middle school and high school years I felt like religion was being forced on me so I just went through the motions and got away from it as soon as I got to college. I then came back after college because I felt the empty void in my life. It is much more rewarding when you go by choice and not because of your parents.

7/7/2011 9:55:59 AM

I'm curious; did you join any other religions during your downtime, or did your parents let you practice any other religions growing up? You use this word 'choice' and I'm not certain you actually had one.

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason : .]

7/7/2011 10:09:38 AM

I went to Catholic school coming up and my parents never forced me to go to church. My dad is actually a christian preacher and when I go to church with him, friends, or extended family members I always thought it was pretty crazy, long as hell and uncomfortable. In college, I pretty much lost faith and went completely to science.

I have listened to some southern baptists preachers on the radio and went to one in Georgia that was awesome. I think it was just an awesome sermon about how society is so afraid to touch children but children need to be touched often by adults to show that they are loved.

7/7/2011 10:19:16 AM

Quote :

"I am not a saint nor is anyone here on Earth."

C'mon now, this is just a blatant lie in the face of scripture. Or do the Catholics know better than Paul?


"11Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. 12Greet one another with an holy kiss. 13All the saints salute you."


"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:"

1 Cor 1:2

I don't think I really need to quote the multitude of examples where the saints are refereed to, alive and well.

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 10:20 AM. Reason : ]

7/7/2011 10:20:26 AM

They are alive and well in heaven but calling someone a saint is a judgement and you know thats in the bible. Basically a saint is someone who goes to heaven so how can we say someone alive is going to be in heaven? we can't. Saints are here but we can't see them or identify them.

7/7/2011 10:23:54 AM

Even though you can't know whether or not someone is that does not mean people suddenly transform into saints in Heaven. I can say that I have faith that I am a saint. Otherwise would I not be denying the power of Christ's salvation?

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason : Can't type recently]

7/7/2011 10:26:11 AM

Quote :

"Oh, I thought she was saying she had absolutely read the bible"

I did. I read the bible in it's entirety. I even spoke to a priest about some of the things that I read and how I viewed the text. I went to a person of "authority" on the bible.

I have also read Dawkin's God delusion. It was a very well thought out text in my opinion.

Quote :

"Would you care to tell the parts your speaking of?"

LeonIsPro and aaronburro. You both assumed I have taken scripture out of context. No where do you have proof to back that claim.

Quote :

"Because I've read several Dawkins arguments and that's what they are. They essentially boil down to Dawkins declaring that God doesn't exist because He doesn't do what Dawkins wants him to do based on Dawkins' strawman interpretation of the Bible."

aaronburro This sounds like you have not read Dawkin's book God Delusion in it's entirety. Dawkin's does not claim to prove that there is not a God, just that we can conclude a probability to the chance that there is a God, that of which is very, very small.


[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 11:19 AM. Reason : .]

7/7/2011 11:04:52 AM

Quote :

"LeonIsPro and aaronburro. You both assumed I have taken scripture out of context. No where do you have proof to back that claim."

Ok, I assumed when I shouldn't have but you still haven't provided the scriptural examples you spoke of.

[Edited on July 7, 2011 at 11:10 AM. Reason : ]

7/7/2011 11:10:18 AM

renegadegirl, You read the Bible and you didn't become a god-fearing Christian immediately thereafter. *Obviously* you read it out of context!

7/7/2011 11:40:05 AM