as long as the free ride provision remains, isn't forced pooling protection for land owners?

8/28/2013 10:55:30 AM

^
not really. it still means private companies can hijack your property and subject it to water supply contaminants and sinkholes.

8/28/2013 11:04:49 AM

but if there was no forced pooling, couldn't they do that anyways on an adjacent property and not have to give you anything? i thought forced pooling started to prevent the "drinking your milkshake" with a long straw problem.

8/28/2013 11:34:08 AM

^Yea I think they could frack your land, but instead of getting paid royalties you would be entitled to all of the profits extracted from your property (that would be the free ride problem).

If you are a big property rights advocate, then I can see how forced pooling is a non-starter. Unfortunately, that's just not the world we live in, evidenced by the fact that NC has had forced pooling rules on the books since the 1940s. However, North Carolina can at least rig the game slightly in favor of property owners by requiring more than just a majority of your neighbors to sign onto a lease (and thus force you into the lease). From the article it says in Ohio they require 90% of the people within a fracking area to sign up before they can start forcing people into the lease. Thats what I'd like to see in NC.

But beyond all that discussion, I want to emphasize how important it is that the commission is even getting to debate the issue. Earlier this year it looked like the State was going to move forward with leases without figuring out these types of details. Cooler heads prevailed and we are getting a slower and more careful process that will include more public comment and more knowledgeable/technical discussion than what we would have seen otherwise.

[Edited on August 28, 2013 at 11:57 AM. Reason : .]

8/28/2013 11:53:54 AM

but aren't the current forced pooling rules rigged in favor of the property owner? before the current rules, if someone wanted minerals under my property couldn't they just set up nearby and take it? then the current forced pooling rules came along so now if they did that i would get 100% of the profits from under my property.

8/28/2013 2:29:39 PM

^yes, before pooling someone could set up outside your property and take your minerals, but I'm pretty sure that would be illegal (assuming you own the mineral rights). I'm not sure how easy it would be to catch a company in the act doing that, but I'm pretty sure you would have some legal recourse.


Forced pooling can either be rigged in favor of drillers or in favor of landowners. If the N&O article is correct, then states like VA only require 25% of the landowners in a drilling area to sign onto a lease before they can't start pooling. That would make it REALLY easy for drillers - just get one person to sign on and then you've basically backed everyone else into a corner, eminent domain for private profit. In Ohio, where 90% of landowners need to sign a lease, it suddenly becomes more of a community decision and much harder for drillers to use to their advantage.

[Edited on August 28, 2013 at 3:08 PM. Reason : VA not PA,]

8/28/2013 3:04:09 PM

thanks

8/28/2013 3:06:19 PM

Quote :

"http://ecowatch.com/2013/colbert-fracking-gag-order-children/ Watch the video at the bottom of the page after clicking the link."

awesome video

8/28/2013 5:15:42 PM

So DENR has rejected a federal grant of 222K to monitor water quality at fracking well sites. Additionally they are cutting water regulator's jobs as well. Seems legit.

9/27/2013 11:17:50 PM

hey, if you don't have water monitors, there's no water pollution reported, so therefor there must be no water pollution!

9/28/2013 12:47:02 AM

^^ I heard that on NPR the other morning. The level of stupidity by this Starr's government is staggering. I have little doubt that they want to use their own cronies within DENR who will massage the data in the oil company's favor. It still makes no sense to me why they are even pushing so hard for this garbage in our state other than simply setting up shop before serious health and environmental laws are implemented.

9/28/2013 7:55:57 AM

Quote :

"4 states confirm water pollution from drilling"

Quote :

"PITTSBURGH (AP) — In at least four states that have nurtured the nation's energy boom, hundreds of complaints have been made about well-water contamination from oil or gas drilling, and pollution was confirmed in a number of them, according to a review that casts doubt on industry suggestions that such problems rarely happen. The Associated Press requested data on drilling-related complaints in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia and Texas and found major differences in how the states report such problems. Texas provided the most detail, while the other states provided only general outlines. And while the confirmed problems represent only a tiny portion of the thousands of oil and gas wells drilled each year in the U.S., the lack of detail in some state reports could help fuel public confusion and mistrust."

Quote :

"— Pennsylvania has confirmed at least 106 water-well contamination cases since 2005, out of more than 5,000 new wells. There were five confirmed cases of water-well contamination in the first nine months of 2012, 18 in all of 2011 and 29 in 2010. The Environmental Department said more complete data may be available in several months. — Ohio had 37 complaints in 2010 and no confirmed contamination of water supplies; 54 complaints in 2011 and two confirmed cases of contamination; 59 complaints in 2012 and two confirmed contaminations; and 40 complaints for the first 11 months of 2013, with two confirmed contaminations and 14 still under investigation, Department of Natural Resources spokesman Mark Bruce said in an email. None of the six confirmed cases of contamination was related to fracking, Bruce said. — West Virginia has had about 122 complaints that drilling contaminated water wells over the past four years, and in four cases the evidence was strong enough that the driller agreed to take corrective action, officials said. — A Texas spreadsheet contains more than 2,000 complaints, and 62 of those allege possible well-water contamination from oil and gas activity, said Ramona Nye, a spokeswoman for the Railroad Commission of Texas, which oversees drilling. Texas regulators haven't confirmed a single case of drilling-related water-well contamination in the past 10 years, she said."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/01/05/some-states-confirm-water-pollution-from-drilling/4328859/

1/6/2014 10:54:38 PM

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-10/epa-s-reliance-on-driller-data-for-water-irks-homeowners.html

independent testing by Duke confirmed unsafe levels of methane in wells near fracking sites

1/13/2014 11:35:44 AM

Quote :

"I heard that on NPR the other morning. The level of stupidity by this Starr's government is staggering. I have little doubt that they want to use their own cronies within DENR who will massage the data in the oil company's favor. It still makes no sense to me why they are even pushing so hard for this garbage in our state other than simply setting up shop before serious health and environmental laws are implemented."

Of course! Stacking the deck is a classic, and effective strategy.

1/13/2014 4:38:02 PM

^^

That doesn't really mean the fracking CAUSED the gas contamination, it could just be the geology of the area causes methane to be in the well waters too.


^^^
Interesting

1/13/2014 7:23:28 PM

methane doesn't naturally get to that level

1/13/2014 7:42:56 PM

We have the ability to distinguish between "relatively new" sources of methane produced by microbes - what you might find naturally occurring in an aquifer - and "really old" methane that would be associated with shale and, if it reaches an aquifer, would be closely linked with fracking. It's possible by looking at the ratios of heavy and light isotopes of carbon in the CH4 (and the hydrogen too, and other "ratios of methane to higher-chained hydrocarbons" from their abstract). They then compared that groundwater chemistry to what they found in nearby fracking wells and were getting reasonably close matches.

The Most recent Duke paper ( and most of their previously published stuff too) are pretty careful about trying to determine the methane source, and they present it pretty well too IMO:
https://nicholas.duke.edu/cgc/pnas2011.pdf

If it were a courtroom, Duke would have just found the fracking jizz in Mother Earth's panties.

1/13/2014 10:49:47 PM

Obviously I'm no geologist, but if an area were prime for fracking, wouldn't you possibly also find those gases at the levels of groundwater? Couldn't that methane have just seeped from the deeper areas?

For it to be the proverbial jizz, it seems they'd have to show that the methane only started seeping after the fracking.

And regardless, currently, they are only showing far less than 1% of people near frack sites affected. From a cost/benefit, seems like it would be worth it to build water lines to those affected than to stop all fracking. I would even wager the side effects of nuclear plants might have a bigger effect.

1/14/2014 12:33:11 AM

According to the gas companies, there is no possible way the gas could have seeped through thousands of feet of rock and into the aquifer (which is likely wrong IMO, but they've stood by that statement pretty strongly). That means the only other way that gas could have gotten in the aquifer is from a leaky well/well blowout. Either way it's problematic for their neighbors, and as the paper shows if you live within 1km of a fracking well there is a significant chance you will have methane levels 17x what aquifers over 1km from all fracking wells are seeing.

You're right that the overall sample size is relatively small here, and because we don't know the exact timeline of events it's likely not a smoking gun for everyone. But the questions it raises are huge, what if it's impossible to frack without creating pathways from the shale to our aquifers? Should we still allow it? More study is obviously needed, we really don't understand the fracking process as well as big gas's infomercials on TV would have us believe.

We can do the accounting to compare nuclear and fracking, but first we need to fully understand the side effects of fracking. It's just a damn shame we are trying to do it after we've already implemented the technology.

1/14/2014 6:19:23 AM

We don't know how many people are affected, because the testing is usually done by the drilling companies or by people the drilling companies hired. And the Duke report just demonstrated the problem with that, they found unsafe levels where the drilling company said they were fine.

1/14/2014 6:20:03 AM

haha. great solution moron! welp, we done contaminated yur groundwuter. looks like you is gonn need sum wuter linez run up dere to yur house. Nawl, don't you be worryin bout dat dere groundwuter contameenation plume migratin on down to yur mom'n'ems place.

1/14/2014 8:57:46 AM

Ha that's not MY solution, but for such a huge revenue source, I can see the oil/gas companies throwing money at the problem in that way.

It's probably easier and cheaper for them to do that, than try and figure out how to frack without contaminating groundwater (IF this is in fact impossible).

1/14/2014 11:47:43 AM

because making rich companies richer and creating temporary jobs for many out-of-state people for a few years is worth the risk.

1/15/2014 1:18:33 PM

http://www.wral.com/senate-hits-gusher-with-quick-approval-of-drilling-bill/13664270/

5/21/2014 5:17:23 PM

Quote :

"Forced pooling allows drilling companies to extract gas from someone's land without permission if a majority of surrounding landowners approve it. The bill calls for more study of the issue. Read more at http://www.wral.com/senate-hits-gusher-with-quick-approval-of-drilling-bill/13664270/#wiQPUViCPTiG2Bmr.99"

Yeesh. Between that and criminal charges for publicly disclosing chemicals used, that bill is a travesty. I don't have a problem with fracking done right, but I don't see why the legislators feel the need to bend over completely for the energy companies.

5/21/2014 5:31:11 PM

Because they are led by an energy governor.

5/21/2014 6:04:56 PM

Any republicans in here supporting the ALEC approved party line?

5/21/2014 7:17:27 PM

I'm hoping that someone can point out the Triassic Basin for me to show where we're going to rake in all of these new-found riches that are worth jailing people, fucking property rights, and fresh water resources...


How about in this one?


Surely, it must be here somewhere to warrant such gratuitous exemptions from normal permitting processes and salient regulation.


That's right, it's here:


A minuscule expanse containing an unknown quantity that largely sits under our vital fresh water resources. But don't worry, Sen. Bob Rucho says that our state will be "energy independent" because of this (If you don't believe me, read the article). Just remember who these clowns are the next time we are in a drought and everyone is placed on water restrictions (unless you're the drilling companies of course...)

5/21/2014 7:24:42 PM

EPA report is supposed to be released sometime in 2014 and will absolutely color this debate before we get to the 2015 deadline. This could have gone a lot worse IMO.

^!!!, with our small, and relatively unexplored reserves and gas companies barely making or losing money right now we might get only some ho-hum exploration and maybe a few wells?

I believe republicans are kinda banking on fracing giving the NC economy enough of a bump to give their "Carolina Comeback" credibility ala North Dakota (the deadline is right before 2016 election) But NC deposits are not even on the same scale, it won't give any significant boost for many years.

[Edited on May 21, 2014 at 7:53 PM. Reason : ^]

5/21/2014 7:42:21 PM

My hope is that any company that comes in will have a legitimate geologist on staff (Too bad DENR fired most of theirs...) and they will find what a geologic cluster fuck the Piedmont is and determine that the cost/benefit just isn't there. This whole thing makes me skeptical that there isn't something larger going on behind the scenes beyond just trying to get grandfathered into any meaningful regulation that will inevitably come down.

5/21/2014 7:46:24 PM

This will not end well...

5/21/2014 7:59:07 PM

While taking a stroll down memory lane by reading the first couple of pages of this thread when people naively thought that landowners would actually have a say in if their groundwater is potentially contaminated a la forced pooling, I stumbled across this:

Quote :

"if you think fracking is a risk to our waters, you should go take a look at a fly ash pit. - eleusis 6/15/2012 2:31:34 PM"

Holy shit! He's obviously a sorcerer!

5/21/2014 9:13:37 PM

Quote :

"Between that and criminal charges for publicly disclosing chemicals used, that bill is a travesty."

What I really don't get is why (beyond standard corruption issues, I'm looking for the supposed legal justification) we're criminalizing civil matters here. Trade secrets are covered under contract law, violations of contracts are civil torts, not criminal offenses. And seriously a fucking felony?

5/21/2014 10:19:43 PM

ALEC said so

5/21/2014 10:30:56 PM

I bet some legislator or a lobbyist owns land in one of those areas that's otherwise worthless, and wants to unload it to an energy company for $texas, and this is their way of making that happen.

5/21/2014 11:22:20 PM

It's lobbyist money
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-coleman/fracking-rules-in-north-c_b_5352907.html

Quote :

"The three republican state senators that proposed the bill have close ties to the oil and gas industry and industry lobbyists McguireWoods. McGuireWoods, a lobbying firm that represents Halliburton, Koch Industries, and other oil and gas interests, donated to all three senators. Bob Rucho: Top contributors to Rucho's campaign include Piedmont Natural Gas, and McguireWoods. Andrew Brock: Brock received money from Duke Energy, a North Carolina based utility with interests in natural gas, and McGuireWoods. Buck Newton: Newton also revieved money from Duke energy and McGuireWoods."

McGuireWoods even has the N.C. Mining and Energy Commission (MEC) in their pocket, lobbyist D. Bowen "Bo" Heath hangs out with the chairman of the MEC

5/22/2014 8:58:20 AM

http://www.wral.com/fracking-nc-lawmakers-vow-to-avoid-pa-s-costly-mistakes/13667580/

5/22/2014 1:57:48 PM

N.C.'s Senate Commerce Committee fast-tracks fracking, tries to prevent recording of meeting

http://www.indyweek.com/triangulator/archives/2014/05/20/ncs-senate-commerce-committee-feeling-good-about-fracking?

Quote :

"And during the hearing, the committee chairman, state Sen. Rick Gunn, (R-Burlington), stated twice that all recording equipment needed to be registered with the sergeant-at-arms, before it could be used, even though this was a public meeting. This restriction is unprecedented; in fact, committee meetings held in Rooms 540 and 643 of the Legislative Office Building have audio feeds that allow the public to stream the hearings on the Internet. The commerce meeting was held in Rooms 1027 and 1128 of the Legislative Building, which can accommodate large crowds, but is not streamed live. (The Sergeant at Arms confiscated the audio recorder of Rose Hoban of NC Health News , after she did not register her recorder, reports The Progressive Pulse. However, reporters in the chamber with smart phones, which also can record audio and video, did not have to register their equipment."

5/22/2014 2:55:46 PM

http://www.wral.com/fracking-with-drilling-on-horizon-opponents-prepare-for-fight/13670953/

5/23/2014 2:57:59 PM

the NC House will be discussing the fast-track bill during tonight's session, they have not listed it on the public agenda.

how do any of you republicans defend this shit

5/27/2014 11:35:10 AM

http://www.wral.com/bill-amendment-leaves-gas-drilling-start-date-open-ended/13679123/

5/28/2014 9:44:18 AM

How can our state possibly be energy independent? Do we even have a single refinery here? Do we have some untold number of cars that run on natural gas waiting to be exposed to the public?

5/28/2014 11:11:51 AM

i've driven a natural gas van at work. (pain in the ass to fill up)

5/28/2014 11:54:21 AM

http://www.wral.com/house-approves-fast-track-fracking-bill/13682552/

The House approved this disaster as expected and the final vote will be today before it goes back to the Senate for approval of House Amendments. The bill will likely be on the McCrony's desk at the end of the week. There is a protest at the NCGA today at 12:15pm

5/29/2014 8:55:13 AM

As expected the bill passed the house and will sail to McCrony's desk after quick concurrence in the Senate. Obviously I don't need to state the devastating impact of this bill, but what needs to be said is they broke their key promise of waiting until the rules were finalized.

5/29/2014 6:52:06 PM

Right, it pretty much makes the rules worthless (not that they had much merit to begin with as they were written by energy execs). My hope is that this was rushed because meaningful regulation nationally is on the horizon and this will get delayed/tangled up in court for a bit.

I would really love for someone to try and defend the General Assembly's ever so wonderful idea of rewriting oversight to stipulate that companies will only be asked to voluntarily report a regulatory violation in the case of a spill or incident.... Sounds an awful lot like the notion of "self deportation"...

5/29/2014 6:59:40 PM

Another case of Republicans letting me down.

5/29/2014 8:51:59 PM

i wish that proper regulation would be put into place to make sure the environmental risks were made minimal with legislation to specify any harm to property would be mitigated/paid for by the energy companies. that being said, i just don't think nc has as much natural gas as a lot of the politicians assume we do.

5/29/2014 9:40:35 PM

This is similar to the voter ID debacle. Most sensible people are fine with the use of natural gas and are likely amiable to hydraulic fracturing with proper regulation and oversight, but of course that isn't good enough for this General Assembly. They had to cram through forced pooling, felonies for anyone who doesn't bow to the energy company overlords, and telling local municipalities that Republicans are only for small government as long as it's the government they control...

I mean, I guess the next step is to write school science policy mirroring Wyoming that says that all school science should be focused on how it can be used to exploit natural resources and economic gain....

5/29/2014 9:58:41 PM

what else is science good for? corrupting otherwise good christians?

5/29/2014 10:54:02 PM