Quote :

"I believe that science is reliable. You just claim science can make claims about what it inherently cannot. Bad philosophy."

When I say science is reliable I mean at determining the nature of demonstrable reality. Do you still agree? If so, then are you saying that your god isn't part of demonstrable reality?

12/17/2013 11:50:37 AM

posting since this got buried at the bottom of the last page:

Quote :

"We live in a hologram? That's the answer to life's meaning? From a rational perspective, god is more plausible. The reason why has already been covered."

If we do live in a hologram, why would that be the answer to the meaning of life? And why does that have to have an answer or be an important question?

Your reason, as you just said, only goes so far as "higher power". Since that is the case, a simulation should be equally as reasonable as God- that's your argument. You said that you can only make an argument up the point of the Merriam-Webster definition and a computer simulation meets that definition

So, in the worst case scenario, and by your own argument, a computer simulation is equally as reasonable as God

12/17/2013 11:53:23 AM

hey everybody

12/17/2013 1:07:37 PM

lol

12/17/2013 2:16:08 PM

Quote :

" You can't proceed in reasoning with someone who cries FAITHMONGERER! when they won't acknowledge the immense amount of faith in their own reasoning, much less the gaping flaws in logic."

My thoughts exactly.

12/17/2013 2:46:54 PM

hey, guys

just chiming in to say that I'm a Christian and I believe in God, but I don't believe that God is omnipotent

and when you concede that there might be limits to God's powers, quite a few of the natural objections to His behavior (why does He allow Satan to exist, why doesn't He conclusively demonstrate His existence to us, why didn't he just create the world as a realm of perpetual bliss for everyone) disappear

I'm not saying it proves a damn thing...but it does simplify matters a great deal, and provide reasonable resolutions to a lot of problems

and there is (in my view) a very simple and strong argument against God's omnipotence (granted that He exists in the first place.) if God were omnipotent, he'd be able to create a rock etc.

12/17/2013 11:07:34 PM

Setting aside for the moment how you know he exists at all....

I'm curious what your scriptural basis is for this. If he unable to demonstrate himself to us, what can he do? How do you know?

I agree that omnipotence is by definition incoherent but the Bible and essentially every Christian doctrine I've encountered believes if he's not omnipotent then he's pretty freaking close. He did create the entire Universe right?

12/18/2013 8:36:24 AM

At some point everyone just starts making up their own theology, its putting fingers in holes to plug leaks to prevent the rushing flood of reason

12/18/2013 8:47:58 AM

^

Quote :

"I'm curious what your scriptural basis is for this."

None whatsoever. It's just the view that makes the most sense to me. However, it's also worth remarking that (as far as I can recall) the Bible does not explicit state, anywhere, that God IS omnipotent, either. (Maybe I'm off on that, though.)

Quote :

" If he unable to demonstrate himself to us, what can he do?"

Maybe He's unable in the sense that it wouldn't be consistent with His nature. I think God is, in principle, perfectly capable of demonstrating His existence in undeniable fashion; but perhaps only in the sense that an immensely rich father is perfectly capable of (say) providing his son with every luxury, and never requiring him to do any work or exert himself in any way. Perhaps it's better for us, morally, if we're required to believe in God without seeing indisputable proof. I don't know. My doctrine of non-omnipotence doesn't really come into play here.

Quote :

" How do you know?[/i] I don't. This is just my own view. [quote]the Bible and essentially every Christian doctrine I've encountered believes if he's not omnipotent then he's pretty freaking close. He did create the entire Universe right?"

Yes, He created the Universe, but that doesn't mean he's not subject to certain laws (or perhaps he IS those laws, in some sense.) I mean, if God is just, for example, then He cannot be omnipotent, because he's incapable (in effect, at least) of doing unjust things.
Also, I kinda feel that there's no such thing as "pretty freaking close to omnipotent." That's like saying "pretty freaking close to infinity" (which is a property that no number has, in any sense.)

^

Quote :

"At some point everyone just starts making up their own theology, its putting fingers in holes to plug leaks to prevent the rushing flood of reason"

True, to some degree. But I think "putting fingers in holes" is a bit extreme; I'm simply amending the conventional Christian doctrine so that it makes logical and moral sense to me.

I have my own reasons for believing in God...some wholly intuitive (e.g. I feel, or believe that I feel, his presence and love when I pray) and some logical. Maybe I'll share the logical ones at some point (although you folks would probably laugh at them.)

12/18/2013 1:13:46 PM

why Christianity? especially since you have amended the Bible to fit your own desires

have you explored any other religion?

Quote :

"I feel, or believe that I feel, his presence and love when I pray"

the same "presence" is described in almost every religion.

tao

zen

nirvana

etc

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 1:22 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2013 1:20:29 PM

also in secular humanism, for example while sitting quietly on a mountain overlook and enjoying the view

12/18/2013 1:38:25 PM

^^
No, I've not explored other religions to any serious extent. And I don't strictly believe that there's only one "correct" religion, or only one path to God. Christianity is the religion of my culture, to which I've had incomparably the most exposure; so it's the one I've adopted. But I don't actively believe that Islam or Hinduism is "wrong'' or that all Muslims or Hindus are going to Hell.

12/18/2013 1:40:19 PM

it seems lazy to base one of the most important aspects on your life on how you were raised without exploring alternatives

especially considering it's a belief system you know is flawed ("I'm simply amending the conventional Christian doctrine so that it makes logical and moral sense to me")

12/18/2013 1:49:36 PM

KJV literally uses the word "omnipotent":

Quote :

"Rev 19:6 - And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

Though it's more often translated as "Almighty", but it's a frequent word found in the Bible throughout both Testaments.

Isaiah 16

Quote :

"9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: "

Matthew 19:26

Quote :

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

-------------------------------------------------------
Of course I think it's all made up, but I'm only taken aback because the concept of God being limited except by the things explicitly stated in the Bible (like lying, although he clearly lied to Abraham and others) is completely off the reservation. It's like you're making up a new religion.

So do you believe the Jesus narrative as historical?

Quote :

"Also, I kinda feel that there's no such thing as "pretty freaking close to omnipotent." That's like saying "pretty freaking close to infinity" (which is a property that no number has, in any sense.) "

You know what I mean. Arbitrarily large, but not infinite.

12/18/2013 1:53:15 PM

^^I guess I hear what you're saying...but if I believe there's as much or more truth in Christianity than in any religion (which I do) then I might as well adopt it. Plus, there's something to be said for sticking with those things that are already precious to you, and have the merit of long familiarity

plus, I suspect I'd find myself amending the doctrine of ANY religion I tried to adopt.

Everything I just said is after-the-fact, though. The real reason I stick with Christianity is that it's my religion and it feels right to me. I mean, if I love my wife, I'm not going to abandon her just because I might find someone better.

^
Okay, fair enough. I guess the scriptures say (more or less unambiguously) that God is omnipotent.

Quote :

"t I'm only taken aback because the concept of God being limited except by the things explicitly stated in the Bible (like lying, although he clearly lied to Abraham and others) is completely off the reservation. It's like you're making up a new religion."

Yeah, I kind of am. I don't quite understand what you're saying here, but I kind of am making up a new religion. But I believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that He rose from the dead; and in that sense, I'm a Christian. And yes, I believe the Jesus narrative is mostly historical.

Quote :

"You know what I mean. Arbitrarily large, but not infinite."

No such thing. You are talking to a mathematician here

I have to get back to work, guys. This is a good discussion though...I'd like to continue it later on.

12/18/2013 1:54:39 PM

Since you like Battlestar Galactica enough to put it in your username, maybe try worshiping the Lords of Kobol or just being a Mormon or something!

12/18/2013 1:54:50 PM

^^^
to be fair, all of that is up to interpretation, as is a lot of the bible

[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 1:56 PM. Reason : .]

12/18/2013 1:55:54 PM

Quote :

"if I believe there's as much or more truth in Christianity than in any religion (which I do) then I might as well adopt it"

but you haven't looked into any other religion

12/18/2013 1:58:10 PM

Quote :

"I mean, if I love my wife, I'm not going to abandon her just because I might find someone better."

You'd be doing yourself and your wife a disservice if you didn't.

And you're doing yourself a disservice by yoking yourself to truth claims for the wrong reasons (not because they are true, but because you prefer them).

12/18/2013 2:03:22 PM

but what if not leaving your wife to find something better meant that you were both going to be eternally damned?!

12/18/2013 2:05:26 PM

Quote :

" Since you like Battlestar Galactica enough to put it in your username, maybe try worshiping the Lords of Kobol or just being a Mormon or something! "

my username is not derived from Battlestar Galactica (I didn't even know there was such a thing until I joined TWW)...BSG is my last three initials. And remarks like this are totally unworthy of the serious discussion we're having (and weaken your own case to be taken seriously in any intellectual sense.)

See above edited post for some responses.

I have to get back to work though, guys, seriously. This is a good discussion though...I'd like to continue it later on. I'll reply to unanswered queries then.


[Edited on December 18, 2013 at 2:08 PM. Reason : gwe]

12/18/2013 2:06:34 PM

Why do you hate mormons so much?

12/18/2013 2:18:32 PM

Quote :

"but what if not leaving your wife to find something better meant that you were both going to be eternally damned?!"

We are *way* past Pascal's Wager, so I assume you must have been being sarcastic.

12/18/2013 2:40:37 PM

he's not past it

12/18/2013 3:06:44 PM

Pascal's Wager does not enter into my theological calculations. I believe in God because I think He is real, not for any pragmatic, mercenary reason.

Quote :

"but you haven't looked into any other religion"

True, I haven't looked beyond the basics in anything but Christianity...but I still suspect that I'd find comparable logical difficulties no matter where I looked. Also, I believe in Christianity...I don't believe in any other religions. I'm happy with my religion, and I believe in it; so why should I change it? I see no point.

Quote :

"You'd be doing yourself and your wife a disservice if you didn't. "

Do you really think that we should leave our spouses whom we love and are happy with and have lived with, just because we think there's a possibility of finding someone "better" (i.e more compatible)? I don't. Anyway, I don't think I'd find a religion that I believed in more than Christianity (although admittedly I can't know if I haven't tried.)

Quote :

"And you're doing yourself a disservice by yoking yourself to truth claims for the wrong reasons (not because they are true, but because you prefer them). "

Oh, I believe Christianity is true, for the most part. I believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I really couldn't conscionably affix myself to any other religion. I just also happen to think it's possible that religious truth might be relative.

Quote :

"but what if not leaving your wife to find something better meant that you were both going to be eternally damned?!"

I don't believe in eternal hell (in any religion) so this is not an issue for me.

I don't want to attention-whore this thread, but such are my answers.

12/18/2013 10:23:08 PM

Quote :

"I still suspect that I'd find comparable logical difficulties no matter where I looked"

there are many sects of eastern religions which (imo) have no logical inconsistencies

Quote :

"I'm happy with my religion, and I believe in it; so why should I change it? I see no point."

that's fine i guess if you have no desire to improve yourself and no thirst for knowledge

12/18/2013 10:30:33 PM

^
if you're referring to Buddhism (or Buddhist sects) that's not really a religion. Anyhow (while this violates the spirit of my point) I'm willing to sacrifice some logical soundness for the sake of the conclusions I want to draw.

If sacrificing logic for the sake of expedience sounds horrible and foolish, consider that there are absolutely no rigorous, formally demonstrable logical grounds for believing that the sun will rise tomorrow. None whatsoever. But we believe it, because it's desirable and convenient. (This is a stretch, I know; but it illustrates that when we demand perfection in our logic, we sacrifice a whole lot.)

Quote :

"that's fine i guess if you have no desire to improve yourself and no thirst for knowledge"

I have abundant thirst for knowledge, yo. But I don't think switching religions would improve me (any more than divorcing their spouses would improve the lives of most happily married people.)

12/18/2013 10:40:21 PM

Quote :

"Do you really think that we should leave our spouses whom we love and are happy with and have lived with, just because we think there's a possibility of finding someone "better" (i.e more compatible)? I don't. Anyway, I don't think I'd find a religion that I believed in more than Christianity (although admittedly I can't know if I haven't tried.)"

I was actually responding as though you had found someone better. I see you originally wrote "might find someone better." My mistake.

Quote :

"If sacrificing logic for the sake of expedience sounds horrible and foolish, consider that there are absolutely no rigorous, formally demonstrable logical grounds for believing that the sun will rise tomorrow. "

Oh FFS here we go again.

There are absolutely no rigorous, formally demonstrable logical grounds that you even exist, that you're not in the Matrix, that deduction or induction are valid, that causation works, that truth is true, and many many other things which we must assume for reason and cognitive faculties to even work.

Believing that the Sun and Earth are going to continue following the laws of physics as they have been for billions of years is not the same as believing that the storm god of ancient Hebrews actually exists.

Quote :

"This is a stretch, I know; but it illustrates that when we demand perfection in our logic, we sacrifice a whole lot.)"

Who makes that demand? Everyone has the exact same properly basic beliefs which make up our cognitive faculties to even coherently belief any other claim. These beliefs cannot be justified by logic or reason because they are what makes logic and reason work.

Pretending that belief in any god and especially Yahweh are comparable to these beliefs is just wrong.

Quote :

"I have abundant thirst for knowledge, yo. But I don't think switching religions would improve me (any more than divorcing their spouses would improve the lives of most happily married people.)"

I think you need to take a long look at how you define "knowledge" and how important it is to you that the things you think you know map to demonstrable reality. If there's no good reason to believe in your god, then why not believe in other gods? If there's no good reason to believe the sun will come up tomorrow, then why behave as though it will?

12/19/2013 8:45:04 AM

yeah i'm really confused by his stance

i see the value in "believing" something outside demonstrable reality, but not when you're completely aware that that belief system is inconsistent within itself, let alone inconsistent with reality.

my guess is it's a combination of self-comfort/laziness/fear

12/19/2013 8:57:13 AM

Quote :

"my guess is it's a combination of self-comfort/laziness/fear"

hi, welcome to religions

12/19/2013 9:01:40 AM

Quote :

"i see the value in "believing" something outside demonstrable reality"

Do you mean hypothesizing about the unknown so as to fuel discovery? Or belief?

12/19/2013 9:31:44 AM

Quote :

"Do you mean hypothesizing about the unknown so as to fuel discovery? Or belief?"

both sort of?

I like Robert Anton Wilson's stance. He "believes" some things because it makes life more interesting for him. He's aware that these beliefs may not be true, but he prefers to lean in that direction.

Like SETI scientists who "believe" aliens are out there.

But yeah "hypothesize" could be another word for it.

[Edited on December 19, 2013 at 9:35 AM. Reason : .]

12/19/2013 9:34:00 AM

For me, it's fine if it's part of a process of belief refinement and not as an end unto itself. "Because it makes life more interesting" isn't good enough.

12/19/2013 11:15:43 AM

^
Sure. One example is he believed humans would achieve immortality by the 21st century. Unfortunately, that didn't work out for him.

12/19/2013 11:25:08 AM

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/20/does-the-big-bang-breakthrough-offer-proof-of-god/

3/22/2014 1:03:47 PM

Quote :

"If the universe did indeed have a beginning, by the simple logic of cause and effect, there had to be an agent – separate and apart from the effect – that caused it."

Sigh.

3/22/2014 1:07:19 PM

The worse part of that is assuming it was the Christian god of the bible, and no other god. How sad.

Also ignores the parts in genesis that are disproved by our current understanding. Smh

3/23/2014 12:27:50 PM

from my FB feed after my response to some some video about finding religion:
" I'm not saying Christianity is better than any other religion. But, I am a Christian. I believe in the one true King. But you are correct...who knows what the future holds. I rely on my faith in God...that he will continue to guide me and lead my family until we are in his kingdom.

I hope that people out there have some sort of religion to turn to. I promote Christianity because I am a Christian. I just wonder about the ones who are lost, who don't practice anything at all?...
Cult and religion are very similar but they do have their differences. But, I'm not gonna debate this on Facebook."

If yours is not the BEST, why the hell are you following it? You seem to have plenty of conviction telling others they're going to Hell, but all you can muster is "well I think my religion is pretty OK." The "who knows what the future holds" is in reference to my comment about US Protestantism circa 2000 being but a speck on the religious history timeline.

W T F

4/20/2014 9:59:34 AM

nvmd

[Edited on April 20, 2014 at 2:11 PM. Reason : ]

4/20/2014 2:11:17 PM

Christians: doesn't the fact that you're asked to believe on faith alone not itself a giant red flag? Why doesn't the call for faith instead of evidence set off alarm bells?

Wouldn't a god know that we would eventually figure out empiricism and the scientific method? Wouldn't he know that hearsay from ancient scrolls would be unconvincing?

At least Muslim apologists understand this problem: they unsuccessfully try to demonstrate modern scientific predictions from the Koran because they know the all-knowing creator of the Universe would do a hell of a lot better than "just believe it." If one of his actual goals is to have humanity know that he exists.

Why does it all appear to be completely made up by primitive savages if it isn't so?

4/21/2014 12:33:40 AM

^^^ That's postmodernism infiltrating orthodox Christian belief, unfortunately.

^And that is a good, and very common, question. I know you didn't like his book (sorry ), but as this talk by Tim Keller illustrates, that modern conception of faith as you've described, isn't Biblical at all.

http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/noah-and-reasons-faith-faith-understanding

4/21/2014 10:19:46 AM

It seems your argument for everything is that the people who say or believe nutty things in the name of Christianity aren't really Christians or don't know what Christianity really says... This isn't really a valid argument when these nutty people represent the mainstream. Isn't god supposed to be guiding people to the right beliefs? Isn't the Bible supposed to be accessible to all? By your arguments, that system has failed.

4/21/2014 11:34:21 AM

so... i haven't stepped in here for months... has god been found yet within the preceding pages?

4/21/2014 12:35:02 PM

god is sleeping on a bench at Davidson, but some of the locals complained

4/21/2014 12:38:18 PM

'Homeless Jesus' Sculpture Continues To Divide Wealthy Community In North Carolina

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/17/homeless-jesus-sculpture-davidson_n_5167418.html

4/21/2014 12:41:37 PM

^^^so...i haven't stepped into the secular pop culture for months...has god been disproven? i must have missed that memo.

Quote :

"Isn't god supposed to be guiding people to the right beliefs?"

I don't even know what that means. But...not necessarily?

Quote :

"Isn't the Bible supposed to be accessible to all?"

Absolutely. But immune to distortions or misinterpretations? Absolutely not.

"The Bible is shallow enough for a child not to drown, yet deep enough for an elephant to swim."- Augustine

[Edited on April 21, 2014 at 12:47 PM. Reason : ]

4/21/2014 12:47:28 PM

Quote :

"i haven't stepped into the secular pop culture for months...has god been disproven?"

Have unicorns been disproven? Nessie? A tea pot orbiting the sun? That this clove of garlic I keep in my pocket wards off vampire attacks? (I've never been attacked by a vampire, so that's proof, right?)
I hear there's a reality show that is coming close to proving the existence of Sasquatch.

[Edited on April 21, 2014 at 1:00 PM. Reason : ]

4/21/2014 1:00:17 PM

No diving allowed in the bible!

4/21/2014 1:10:05 PM

Quote :

" has god been disproven? "

The God of the Bible (and other major religions) has been disproven. I don't know about the general idea of a god though.

[Edited on April 21, 2014 at 1:27 PM. Reason : ]

4/21/2014 1:26:14 PM

Quote :

"but as this talk by Tim Keller illustrates, that modern conception of faith as you've described, isn't Biblical at all. "

Dude, don't post a fucking 30-minute sermon as a response. Nobody's got time for that. Describe how the modern conception of faith isn't biblical.

4/21/2014 1:48:10 PM