cali should become a new country with 6 different Providences imo

12/14/2016 7:02:23 PM

Quote :

"See... this is my whole point. You said way back on page 2 (a month ago) that YOU were looking for logical attacks against the CALexit idea. Now that you've heard all of them, and only really were able to counter the education and water arguments, you've made some mental leap in your brain to believe that because of what you do for a living, that you're somehow smarter, or better informed than I am, and THUS your view on the topic is somehow more logical. At no point did I shit on you for trying to make your community better. What I did was [sarcastically] question your logic on how participation in the CALexit movement, and your counter again is a personal attack about who I am?? This is chitchat bullshit. Every time you've said where you work you've used it to somehow back up your authority on the subject without giving any facts. Furthermore, you've now gone on to use personal attacks. I find it really ironic that you've referenced Trump while using very similar tactics that he did to avoid defending any real platform. You've effectively said "Believe me, I know.""

Alright, so quick recap of this thread. I initially posted it because I was sort of on the fence about Calexit, but after taking some time to read about it and hear from different perspectives (90% of which have been attacks on the idea ITT), I decided that it was something I actually wanted to take part in- despite plenty of logical reasons provided to me. Nowhere in this thread have I ever stated anything about this being a reality any time soon. I've repeatedly said there's tons of challenges with this movement and that the only way it could even be feasible is if it starts at the local level and involves a ton of compromise. Just because something is improbable or faces long odds, doesn't mean it's not worth fighting for. Ridiculous and impossible ideas come to fruition when enough people refuse to take 'no' for an answer. Call me a dreamer if you want, because I am one in this case.

There are two main components of Calexit and the CNP that I've tried my best to address in this thread. One is the justification or rationale behind the movement and why it started in the first place (i.e desire for more local control of CA's federal tax dollars, coupled with a fascist winning a popular election based on the EC about six weeks ago), and the other is the actual implementation of it (all of which is still nebulous and nowhere near effectual enough to gather mainstream support).

So far, I believe that the sentiment behind the movement is completely justified (at least to me and others who feel the same way) and I provided a laundry list of reasons for it. Most people in this thread don't agree with my reasons, but I frankly don't care. I live here, and many other people don't. Independence and sovereignty movements happen all around the world, and while they're rarely successful, they do sometimes succeed. I tried my best to achieve some common ground and explain where I was coming from, but clearly I wasn't effective enough in my attempts, or people simply refuse to acknowledge common ground on this issue is even possible. Oh well.

As for the feasibility of the plan? That is by far a much more challenging sell to basically everyone involved in this discussion- even those of us who support the spirit behind the movement and are working to take part in it. Yes, water, electricity, the military issue, statewide political and cultural conflicts, along with a host of other challenges (namely the US refusing to ever let us go peacefully because they need CA to remain so powerful) are massive headaches for this movement and they're not going to just go away because we want to wish and hope them away. If CNP party leaders and candidates can't articulate solutions and strategies in a much more logically sound fashion that will appeal to a wider audience, this whole thing could be dead in the water before midterms even roll around. With that said, I'm perfectly happy devoting my time and energy to the causes on their platform I value most: education.

For the record, I haven't really gone out of my way to insult anyone in this thread (aside from JCEbot because he's subhuman), other than in retaliation for the ad hominems launched at me first. In my very first post, I even stated that I expected to be mocked and insulted. It honestly doesn't bother me that much- it's the fucking Wolf Web...

You really should go back and re-read YOUR posts directed towards me personally. You were the one who began with the personal attacks on me and my beliefs (and yes, they are beliefs at this point) not the other way around. If you're going to back me into a corner and say I'm dumb for trying to participate in a movement that reflects my values because you don't share the same ones I do, I'm absolutely going to ask you how you devote YOUR time to causes you believe in. How is that unfair? I'm not trying to be condescending or claim I'm better than anyone, but I happen to work in education and I do so because I'd like to think it's worth my time and energy. If that sounds like bullshit or elitism to you, that's fine. You're not my student. The reason why I keep bringing it up is not to brag or claim I'm some amazing teacher- it's really just to show where my heart and head are and why they motivate me so much to be a part of a cause I believe in.

[Edited on December 14, 2016 at 7:30 PM. Reason : .]

12/14/2016 7:23:53 PM

Quote :

"coupled with a fascist winning a popular election"

You realize Clinton was the gun-grabbing, big-gov authoritarian on the side of the isle that attacks free speech and has 24/7 leftist media propaganda control?

Oh wait, echo chamber within an echo chamber... must hide from reality! Must secede from reality!





[Edited on December 15, 2016 at 2:35 AM. Reason : .]

12/15/2016 2:34:09 AM

mussolini is turning in his grave

12/15/2016 7:05:21 AM

Quote :

"side of the isle "

12/15/2016 9:11:05 AM

Reasons given for North Mexico to secede thus far:

1. Everything I don't like is Hitler
2. Lack of understanding regarding the electoral college
3. Post-election butthurt

Sadly, I'm not surprised this guy is a liberal arts teacher

12/15/2016 3:54:14 PM

Quote :

"namely the US refusing to ever let us go peacefully because they need CA to remain so powerful"

Well, no.

It isn't that California's not important. Obviously it is important. But we wouldn't let Alabama or Mississippi go, either. The US won't let anybody go, because doing so would set a bad precedent. California goes, maybe Texas says, "Well if you let those hippie weirdos go, let us set up a petro-state of our own." Then the Northeast says, "Oh no, fuck all that, if you guys are leaving then we are, too, because we don't want to foot the bill for Arkansas anymore."

All of which is extremely far-fetched, because of course it is based on the extremely far-fetched premise of California seceding. But this same logic is evident all over the world and throughout history. The British Empire was reluctant to let India go, both because of its own importance and because they knew that once it went, the rest of the empire would go, too. And it did, of course. Twenty years later the "Empire" was reduced to a couple of islands.

12/16/2016 7:45:11 AM

Quote :

" Supporters of the campaign for California to secede from the United States can now begin collecting the hundreds of thousands of signatures they need to get a proposed "Calexit" initiative on the ballot. California Secretary of State Alex Padilla cleared the proposed initiative to begin collecting signatures on Thursday"

nice

1/28/2017 8:47:30 AM

decentralization is where it's at

1/28/2017 9:00:29 AM

Cascadia is coming next

1/29/2017 9:12:57 PM

They're beyond delusional at this point to think that a Trump administration would allow this.

1/30/2017 10:26:48 AM

I guess we'll just have to see. I told you all that this conversation was only going to grow louder...

1/30/2017 11:48:40 AM

Finally the conservatives and the leftists can agree on one thing. Hurry up and get North Mexico to succeed so we can build the wall along the appropriate border.

1/30/2017 1:40:21 PM

That was a reach, even for you.

1/30/2017 1:44:35 PM

Quote :

"get North Mexico to succeed"

Are you being ironic?

Quote :

"They're beyond delusional at this point to think that a Trump administration would allow this."

Probably going to take a Constitutional amendment for this to happen peacefully, not sure the Trump admin has anything to do with it. If it is attempted without a Constitutional amendment it's probably going to be pretty violent, and yea, the Trump admin (if it isn't the Pence admin by that point) will make it REALLY ugly.

1/31/2017 7:01:11 PM

If/when people start showing up to build the wall, it's going to get violent pretty quickly.

1/31/2017 8:55:49 PM

As a Californian, I am against succession. Because I love America and don't want to have to move to stay a part of it. But I do think California can wield some political hammers, considering our economy and food supply have become pretty necessary for life in the rest of the country. Imagine if everything you pay money for from San Francisco and L.A. became an import...Google and avocados, and don't forget the oil and the entertainment industry.

[Edited on January 31, 2017 at 10:00 PM. Reason : -]

1/31/2017 10:00:12 PM

Quote :

"As a Californian, I am against succession"

SWISH!

1/31/2017 10:22:57 PM

Quote :

" Imagine if everything you pay money for from San Francisco and L.A. became an import...Google and avocados, and don't forget the oil and the entertainment industry."

imagine if there was free trade with no tariffs or other bull crap

2/1/2017 6:15:30 AM

Quote :

"Yeah, the inevitable "civil war" argument starts to fall apart if you think about how it's neither morally or ethically justified to violently attack a state for peacefully seeking its own sovereignty. "

Quote :

"If/when people start showing up to build the wall, it's going to get violent pretty quickly."

Okay UJW84, I don't want to make this personal given the above post. I am however going to attack your logic because I feel it's important to the discussion. Can you explain the two above posts? I see them as a blatant contradiction, and the second is further counter to the idea that "California would peacefully secede" which is a basic tenant of the CALEXIT Movement.

2/1/2017 7:10:41 AM

^not a contradiction if wall busters are not morally justified

2/1/2017 7:24:41 AM

^I guess... but I don't think that's his point. But maybe it is which is why I asked for clarification.

I'm arguing that if it's "neither morally or ethically justified to attack a state for peacefully seeking its own sovereignty [and therefore a civil war won't happen if CA attempts to secede]" then its illogical to suspect that "it's going to get violent pretty quick" when the US attempts to build a wall [to presumably peacefully seek/enforce its own sovereignty].

We can debate the wall idea somewhere else, and I think it just fits into the motivation for this CALEXIT movement, but the specific moral/economic/social arguments of the Trump wall are outside the scope of this CALEXIT debate.

2/1/2017 8:36:42 AM

It's never going to be an official position of the CNP to condone violence and confrontation with the US gov't over the wall, but most people aren't going to give a shit and it will probably happen anyway. I certainly won't be partaking in the violence myself, but plenty of other pissed off people will be.

In an ideal world, Californian independence could happen relatively peacefully through legal channels and passive resistance (refer back to my initials posts saying the likelihood was low to begin with, but I digress); however, once shovels start hitting the ground, trying to be rational with a hivemind will obviously prove difficult.

half-baked prediction: protestors show up in masse and try to obstruct construction before it starts, Trump gets pissed and sends in the National Guard, violence erupts and some people die as a result. The degree of domestic and international outrage? Can't really say for sure. Optics-wise, it would certainly look bad of the US government to attack its own citizens to a fair amount of people.

In any case, there's a pretty big difference between Californians collectively deciding to leave the union to pursue independence through legal means (referendum/constitutional court cases), and then the US denying them the opportunity to leave and retaliating with violence the ensure compliance. (The official position of the CNP has always been for this to be a peaceful exit)

VS.

The US Gov't sends in workers to build a wall on California soil that most Californians oppose, which leads to a bloody showdown between protestors and federal troops.

You're under the false assumption that anyone who resists the building of the wall (violently or not) is in favor of CA independence btw. Plenty of people oppose Trump and the wall, but don't want CA to leave- Californians included.



[Edited on February 1, 2017 at 4:06 PM. Reason : .]

2/1/2017 3:49:22 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_(independence_movement)

2/1/2017 6:12:33 PM

I only want the good parts of OR (i.e. western, anything east of the Cascades excluding Bend can fuck off) WA (Seattle area, San Juans/Orcas, Olympic Peninsula, and Cascades) and ID (Boise area, Sawtooths, the panhandle, and the part near Yellowstone). Otherwise, DO NOT WANT.

[Edited on February 1, 2017 at 6:18 PM. Reason : Vancouver can come too I guess.]

2/1/2017 6:17:34 PM

Vancouver is a requirement. Would hate to fuck up traffic even worse on the 5 by adding a border checkpoint.

Plus the Unified country of Cascadia will hopefully have better luck building a new bridge.

The border should be placed somewhere between MM 70-80 to include Hood River yet Exclude The Dalles.

2/1/2017 6:57:28 PM

How about you morons in Berkeley let Milo have his little jerk off session in peace and not give these people yet another reason to claim they are victims?

[Edited on February 1, 2017 at 9:57 PM. Reason : X]

2/1/2017 9:56:42 PM

When Republicans are in the White House, California threatens to secede.

When Democrats are in the White House, Texas threatens to secede.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

2/1/2017 10:00:50 PM

^^ I don't live in Berkeley, and I certainly don't go to violent protests.

2/1/2017 11:25:36 PM

West Coast Best Coast

2/2/2017 2:47:34 AM

Re Berkeley, relate something my high school history teacher told me.

Former staunch conservative longtime Senator from North Carolina, Jesse Helms, once orchestrated a law to pass the North Carolina General Assembly that members of the Communist Party USA were barred from speaking at state-supported universities. Two members of the party were planning to speak at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Turns out they lived up to the law by speaking from private property across the street from the university, and a crowd gathered to listen to them.

I would like to congratulate these students at the University of California at Berkeley on becoming Jesse Helms.

2/2/2017 9:43:37 AM

fascism should be met with violence when necessary

2/2/2017 9:56:02 AM

I know most posters on TWW are further removed from their college years than I, but what happened at Berkley is not at all isolated. All college campuses have become cesspools of braindead SJWs. These people cannot think for themselves, and they are indoctrinated with leftist/marxist ideology from all sides.

Like the SJWs on TWW, they are beyond saving

2/2/2017 9:56:51 AM

Why would Oregon and Washington want to join California? Population is such that every policy decision would be determined by southern California. Not to mention California has several legitimate issues if they went on their own that Oregon and Washington would want nothing to deal with (California budgetary issues, e.g. CALPERS doesn't have enough money, no pension does but CALPERS is huge, very high immigration numbers from a state to the south much poorer, California would now have to negotiate Colorado River water access with a foreign state, etc.)

2/2/2017 9:59:51 AM

^^^ who gets to determine who is a fascist? Is it allowed to be a person you disagree with?

Also, property was damaged, so crimes were committed by these individuals, but who cares about that?

2/2/2017 10:05:10 AM

Quote :

"The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists -Churchill"

2/2/2017 10:06:43 AM

the only reason GB didn't fall to fascism like other european countries was that protesters violently confronted fascist marches, fascist demonstrations were banned, and GB had strong social policies that were necessary during and after the war (even under conservative leadership)

2/2/2017 10:10:20 AM

^ who gets to determine who is a fascist? Is it allowed to be a person you disagree with?

2/2/2017 10:19:02 AM

Quote :

" Right Wing: Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism; etc – in essence, they are against the progressive left in total, including moderate lefts (social democrats, etc). Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology, though it can be opportunistic. Nationalism: Fascism places a very strong emphasis on patriotism and nationalism. Criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is lambasted as unpatriotic at best, and treason at worst. State propaganda consistently broadcasts threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war. Fascism invariably seeks to instill in its people the warrior mentality: to always be vigilant, wary of strangers and suspicious of foreigners. Hierarchy: Fascist society is ruled by a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret vanguard of capitalists. Hierarchy is prevalent throughout all aspects of society – every street, every workplace, every school, will have its local Hitler, part police-informer, part bureaucrat – and society is prepared for war at all times. The absolute power of the social hierarchy prevails over everything, and thus a totalitarian society is formed. Representative government is acceptable only if it can be controlled and regulated, direct democracy (e.g. Communism) is the greatest of all crimes. Any who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism will be imprisoned or executed. Anti-equality: Fascism loathes the principles of economic equality and disdains equality between immigrant and citizen. Some forms of fascism extend the fight against equality into other areas: gender, sexual, minority or religious rights, for example. Religious: Fascism contains a strong amount of reactionary religious beliefs, harking back to times when religion was strict, potent, and pure. Nearly all Fascist societies are Christian, and are supported by Catholic and Protestant churches. Capitalist: Fascism does not require revolution to exist in capitalist society: fascists can be elected into office (though their disdain for elections usually means manipulation of the electoral system). They view parliamentary and congressional systems of government to be inefficient and weak, and will do their best to minimize its power over their policy agenda. Fascism exhibits the worst kind of capitalism where corporate power is absolute, and all vestiges of workers' rights are destroyed. War: Fascism is capitalism at the stage of impotent imperialism. War can create markets that would not otherwise exist by wreaking massive devastation on a society, which then requires reconstruction! Fascism can thus "liberate" the survivors, provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding. Voluntarist Ideology: Fascism adopts a certain kind of “voluntarism;” they believe that an act of will, if sufficiently powerful, can make something true. Thus all sorts of ideas about racial inferiority, historical destiny, even physical science, are supported by means of violence, in the belief that they can be made true. It is this sense that Fascism is subjectivist. Anti-Modern: Fascism loathes all kinds of modernism, especially creativity in the arts, whether acting as a mirror for life (where it does not conform to the Fascist ideal), or expressing deviant or innovative points of view. Fascism invariably burns books and victimises artists; artists who do not promote the fascists ideals are seen as “decadent.” Fascism is hostile to broad learning and interest in other cultures, since such pursuits threaten the dominance of fascist myths. The peddling of conspiracy theories is usually substituted for the objective study of history. "

[Edited on February 2, 2017 at 10:25 AM. Reason : this is the context i am using and the context that makes trump a fascist]

2/2/2017 10:24:38 AM

Quote :

"Right Wing: Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism"

LOL

The SJW Marxists showing their hand too early

Ironically enough, if the left keep rioting and burning shit, they will force riot police to be deployed, and that will only fuel their backwards victimhood mindset that they are being oppressed by hitler.

[Edited on February 2, 2017 at 10:29 AM. Reason : joke]

2/2/2017 10:25:21 AM

bring the police

2/2/2017 10:32:19 AM

I guess by your bullshit SJW definition, most non SJW Americans are fascists.

Patriotic
Christian
Capitalist

The horror! Every non-SJW American is literally Hitler

2/2/2017 10:42:09 AM

I love how JCE is attacking liberals for reacting violently against hate speech, yet he defends our Cheeto overlord whenever he tries to abuse his authority, particularly when it comes to trying to suppress the media.

Fwiw, I don't condone the violence that took place last night. However, it isn't really surprising what happened. You say hateful shit in front of a group of people to provoke them? Yeah, they're probably going to react violently. Should these violent protestors be prosecuted for their actions? Absolutely. Both sides are complete idiots in this scenario though.

2/2/2017 10:43:27 AM

The instigators were also masked, unidentified and not apprehended. There's nothing to link them to the protest other than that they were there and instigated violence. The protest was peaceful before their arrival, and the violence really only riles up the indignation of The Right...so who stood to benefit from the violence? Wouldn't put it past Milo/Brietbart to have paid those people off.

ibt JCE#'s 'well they learned it from Crooked Hillary rawr rawr rawr'

2/2/2017 10:49:10 AM

Hate speech deserves a #safespace. #Unfair!

2/2/2017 10:51:03 AM

Have you ever listened to what Milo actually says? It isn't "Hate Speech", it's calling out the bullshit that all of you fragile SJW Marxists stand for.

Everytime the SJWs riot and protest, they prove his point.

Quote :

"so who stood to benefit from the violence? Wouldn't put it past Milo/Brietbart to have paid those people off."

I thought the same thing.

Though I used to think the same thing about the non-violent protests too that would try and shut down Milo and Ben Shapiro talks, then was horrified to discover these creatures actually exist and are everywhere on the college campuses.

2/2/2017 11:15:02 AM

Why should anyone left of center have to answer for this? I'm sorry but do people right of center have to answer for Quebec or Charleston? Of course not.

Idiots rioted. Idiots should be arrested if they committed crimes.

2/2/2017 11:21:08 AM

^^^^ Ah great. We've now entered false flag explanations.

^ That's how the Internet works. It's full of dumbshits left and right that don't care if 10000 people die as long as it can be used to score political points in their pet political argument.

[Edited on February 2, 2017 at 11:24 AM. Reason : .]

2/2/2017 11:21:19 AM

Quote :

"^^^^ Ah great. We've now entered false flag explanations."

I mean we saw the DNC pay, train, and plant fight instigators at Trump rallies, and pay people to protest.

Though rioting and violence does seem to be the calling card of the leftist "activists" to be fair.

2/2/2017 11:52:55 AM

1. complicated

2/2/2017 12:13:31 PM