https://www.yahoo.com/news/usaid-reinstates-contracts-georgia-company-121215347.html

https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2025/02/27/g-s1-50929/elon-musk-ebola-usaid

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/03/04/us/trump-news-doge-ukraine

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cdc-disease-detectors-among-hundreds-145554761.html

You think it's hysteria to think that Musk indiscriminately killing USAID contracts for malnourished children or firing CDC and VA staff will get people killed? You don't think it's a very possible outcome?

3/5/2025 3:51:13 PM

That's lazy hysteria

3/5/2025 4:06:13 PM

I'm trying to look at what DOGE does through a zero-based budgeting framework.
https://ahatfield.substack.com/p/zero-based-budgeting-and-doge-a-fresh

if you've ever had to be responsible for the budget of an organization, a department, or a household, you may understand that sometimes in the past you have been able to (or did it anyways even when you couldn't afford it) spend money on Good Things. but then circumstances change (eg interest rates go up due to inflation and now the interest alone on your 100% of GDP national debt exceeds your previously largest spending categories) and you have to make tough decisions and cut spending or go bankrupt.

yes it's great that in the past the United States has paid to feed people in other countries. maybe we can't afford to any longer.
yes it's great that the United States has paid to monitor and help prevent ebola outbreaks for the 95% of human beings in the world who don't pay US taxes.

and even better, it's great that we'll continue to do that despite our own financial challenges

Quote :

""We will make mistakes. We won't be perfect," he said. "When we make mistakes, we'll fix it very quickly. So, for example, with USAID, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly was Ebola prevention." USAID is the U.S. Agency for International Development, which has largely been dismantled by the Trump administration. "We restored the Ebola prevention immediately — and there was no interruption," Musk continued."

yes it's great that the United States government has hired veterans to fill 30 percent of civil service jobs. that doesn't mean they are immune to budget cuts though. and it's shameful to use veterans as a prop to write negative headlines.

the point of DOGE (allegedly) is to make drastic budget cuts because the United States can't afford year after year, decade after decade of deficit spending. will it work? I don't know. are some of the cuts ideologically driven? sure. but if you can't look at the big picture and realize the US finally needs to get its financial house in order (even if it means Trump and Elon are gonna be the ones to do it bc nobody before them (including Trump 45) has the balls to do it) then yeah every action DOGE makes is going to look like evil or whatever. I wish Obama had balanced the budget. but he didn't. Neither did Biden. and now we're fucked. so let's get the pain over with, and if we have extra cash to spend in 2028 or 2032 on peanut butter or UBI, we can talk about that then.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 4:17 PM. Reason : . ]

3/5/2025 4:16:35 PM

Quote :

"yes it's great that in the past the United States has paid to feed people in other countries. maybe we can't afford to any longer. yes it's great that the United States has paid to monitor and help prevent ebola outbreaks for the 95% of human beings in the world who don't pay US taxes."

So much for those UBI ideals.

We absolutely can afford those things, these cuts are being made to pay for tax cuts on the rich.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 4:32 PM. Reason : a]

3/5/2025 4:22:53 PM

Also, I said cuts to the VA, not cuts to federal employees who happen to be veterans.

https://www.stripes.com/veterans/2025-03-04/veterans-services-firings-trump-lawmakers-17033584.html

So please don't

Quote :

" it's shameful to use veterans as a prop to write negative headlines"

I've never thought veterans deserve special recognition/parades/any of that bullshit, but we damn sure deserve a functional VA.

3/5/2025 4:29:20 PM

Quote :

"So much for those UBI ideals."

indeed. but organizations don't pay dividends when there is no surplus wealth to distribute to its shareholders. so let's be more efficient with our spending (and our tax structures) so that we can one day get to this point.

Quote :

"We absolutely can afford that, these cuts are being made to pay for tax cuts on the rich."

and neither obama or biden took seriously the project of reversing bush or trump tax cuts so that we could have balanced budgets. they all just let the debt pile up. this was inevitable and avoidable. yes of course republicans suck more for prioritizing tax cuts and constantly talking shit about the national debt and spend-happy democrats when republicans always end up adding even more debt whenever they're in office. but i always expected republicans to suck. i had high expectations of democrats, and they blew it. over and over and over again.

3/5/2025 4:34:59 PM

Honestly, the more I read your statement about it being shameful, the more I'm done with this conversation.

I'm sorry you don't think we deserve a functional VA. I'm sorry you don't understand that cutting jobs without thought from the VA will jeopardize lives. I'm so glad you can accuse me of being hysterical for thinking that.

What a joke.

3/5/2025 4:35:48 PM

you posted

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/03/04/us/trump-news-doge-ukraine

which is paywalled so I used

https://archive.is/cxF3c

which says

Quote :

"Veteran job cuts: About 30 percent of civil service employees in the federal government are veterans, and many have lost jobs in the Trump administration’s drive to cut federal spending. President Trump and Elon Musk, who is leading the cutbacks, have fired about 20,000 workers on probationary status — and about 6,000 were veterans, according to a count by Democrats."

if that's not what you were referring to then i'll be happy to look at whatever else instead

Quote :

"we damn sure deserve a functional VA"

agreed. taking reasonable care of our veterans should be at the top of our list of priorities.

3/5/2025 4:38:43 PM

Quote :

"You think it's hysteria to think that Musk indiscriminately killing USAID contracts for malnourished children or firing CDC and VA staff will get people killed? You don't think it's a very possible outcome? "

Word for word from my post.

3/5/2025 4:51:48 PM

ok and i was looking for a corroborating news report on your claim which I assumed would be in one of the links you posted. is that not reasonable?

3/5/2025 5:04:45 PM

Do you still think I'm being 'hysterical' when I say these cuts to the VA will get people killed?

3/5/2025 5:07:57 PM

https://apnews.com/article/veterans-affairs-cuts-doge-musk-trump-f587a6bc3db6a460e9c357592e165712

Quote :

" That would require terminating tens of thousands of employees after the VA expanded during the Biden administration, as well as to cover veterans impacted by burn pits under the 2022 PACT Act."

3/5/2025 5:09:31 PM

will? as in with 100% certainty? nah.

I don't think budget cuts in any organization are a foregone conclusion for worse performance for that organization's mission. I've had to cut department budgets and still be able to accomplish my goals. That's what efficiency can do for you. Is it possible things will get worse overall, or there will be specific failures? sure. likely even. but that's just more evidence that we should have solved these budget problems long ago in an orderly way, instead of letting it fester so bad that the American Voters decided to let Elon have a go at it.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 5:18 PM. Reason : what spending would you rather cut instead. show me your balanced budget]

3/5/2025 5:15:55 PM

Hahaha, you accused me of "catastrophizing hysteria" and now demand i show you a balanced budget and won't answer my question.

Goddamn dude, what happened to you

3/5/2025 5:22:50 PM

what question didn't I answer

3/5/2025 5:25:10 PM

Read up like 3 or 4 posts.

3/5/2025 5:30:04 PM

Quote :

"will? as in with 100% certainty? nah."

3/5/2025 5:33:42 PM

Bruh. Now you're just being obtuse.

3/5/2025 5:35:48 PM

You're forgetting yourself, Dufresne

3/5/2025 6:05:03 PM

there is absolutely no need for anyone to play devils advocate with what those psychopaths are currently doing to the federal government

3/5/2025 6:19:41 PM

Quote :

"I wish Obama had balanced the budget. but he didn't. Neither did Biden. and now we're fucked."

.

Do you really think it would've made any difference? Clinton balanced the budget, but once a Republican entered the White House, he gave tax cuts and fucked the balanced budget up in his first year. Why would it be any different if Obama or Biden had done the same?

Quote :

"we have no idea yet what the impact of DOGE or Trump 47 will be on the United States."

I wouldn't go that far. The way they fucked up the cuts for the FAA and DOE, I get a strong impression they are incompetent and in over their heads with this. That implies to me that we have at least some idea this shit isn't gonna work for us.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 6:51 PM. Reason : ]

3/5/2025 6:48:00 PM

Quote :

"Now you're just being obtuse"

i'm just saying when people make assertions with absolute certainty like

Quote :

"that will 100% get people killed"

that falls into non-serious catastrophizing hysteria and I wish people would stop, so we can talk about what's happening like responsible adults who actually want to solve this country's long term challenges.

it'd be a far more productive conversation if people would just say "i'm concerned about the impact changes A, B and C COULD have and here's how we evaluate the relative risks and costs associated with it."

I just want a more nuanced approach than screaming about every single budget cut headline being evidence of trump's satanic nature. cus that's mostly what i've seen from the #Resist tribe and it's not helpful.

if there's a $1T budget deficit and you can't even bring yourself to accept a $10M budget cut to any given department, what hope is there. i haven't seen a single Democrat say "yeah ok this cut is fine we can live with that what's next"

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 6:58 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2025 6:52:24 PM

Got it, you need to see the people dying first. Although, I'm sure the goalposts while shift to "Well, how do you know the policy cuts were responsible"

You definitely want to play devil's advocate for Elon here for whatever fucking reason.

I know the veteran community, I know the VA system, I trust the groups that are sharing these concerns. And yet you want to just instantly dismiss it was 'oh you're being hysterical'? Honestly man, I really thought better of you.

3/5/2025 6:58:39 PM

Quote :

"You definitely want to play devil's advocate for Elon here for whatever fucking reason."

I have said many many times I hold no special place in my heart for Elon. This is a Democrat Party credibility thread, and my thesis continues to be that ultimately it's the Democrats who fucked up and left us with this shitshow.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 7:01 PM. Reason : it's time for the rest of you Dems to start holding your party accountable for its failings]

Quote :

"I trust the groups that are sharing these concerns"

I'm not disputing the concerns. I think every department that is getting budget cuts has concerns. That's not the issue.

So the budget for the VA is like $300B (compared to like $70B in the year 2000 fwiw).

according to the current CNN front page article

Quote :

"the department will aim to revert back to its 2019-era staffing levels of 399,957 employees"

the VA budget in 2019 was about $200B.

so the question is, if you want the $100B for the VA back, what other departments get cut $100B instead.

probably nobody here wants to answer that.

but if we want to get anywhere close to eliminating a $1T budget deficit, then we're gonna need to figure out where that money comes from. and if Dems aren't willing to choose, then apparently Trump will

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 7:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2025 7:00:53 PM

"How could Dems do this" he said while watching Trump demolish government agencies, cutting domestic aid, jeopardizing our position with allies, and giving massive tax cuts to the rich.

3/5/2025 7:06:57 PM

Quote :

"So the budget for the VA is like $300B (compared to like $70B in the year 2000 fwiw). "

GEE GOLLY, I WONDER WHY THAT IS

3/5/2025 7:15:25 PM

Quote :

"where that money comes from. and if Dems aren't willing to choose"

TAX. THE. RICH. Close loopholes. Remove the cap on Social Security deduction.

3/5/2025 7:17:57 PM

Quote :

"so the question is, if you want the $100B for the VA back, what other departments get cut $100B instead."

Actually, my question is: Why the fuck are we allowing an incompetent (criminally incompetent, in my opinion) administration to make these cuts unilaterally?

Without that, I don't think you'd even be having to ask your question.

3/5/2025 8:50:28 PM

Quote :

"TAX. THE. RICH. Close loopholes. Remove the cap on Social Security deduction."

tax the rich is a mostly useless populist slogan but sure, let's do it. show me some proposals (and the #MATH) that would balance the budget. which loopholes should we remove? maybe somebody should just thoughtfully overhaul and simplify the whole thing so there's less room for fancy accounting tricks in the first place.

I also am open to removing (or at least significantly increasing) the social security cap, but that revenue (unless i'm mistaken) doesn't go to fund the VA or CDC or anything else. it's for social security only.

Quote :

"Why the fuck are we allowing an incompetent (criminally incompetent, in my opinion) administration to make these cuts unilaterally"

regardless of how you or I feel about their competence, the administration that the American public voted for gets to do the doing. that's democracy. I wish the American public had voted differently, and by that I mostly mean I wish the Democratic Party had given the American public better reasons to vote differently.

and this is why I am mostly focused on trying to get Democrats to wake up and fix their own house. it was reasonable to think 2016 was a fluke, but it's clear now that the public is fed up with the Democrats, and until the Party internalizes that (for real this time), learns the historical lessons, and make real, substantive changes, they won't even have a chance.

does anybody want to win in 2028? how about 2032? 2036? what does that look like? how do we get there? cus I don't think it looks like what I've seen the last few months/years/decades.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 9:11 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2025 9:03:37 PM

Tax the rich isn’t about the budget, it’s about incentives

3/5/2025 9:05:12 PM

"Mostly a populist slogan"

K.

3/5/2025 9:07:53 PM

Quote :

"Tax the rich isn’t about the budget, it’s about incentives"

what incentives

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 9:14 PM. Reason : ^ you can prove it's not just a slogan by showing an actual proposal.]

3/5/2025 9:14:25 PM

Cancel the Trump 2017 tax cuts which are estimate to cost at least 4 Trillion over the next 10 years.

Look, i just funded the VA

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60114

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 9:24 PM. Reason : Can't wait for the next goalpost move!]

3/5/2025 9:22:35 PM

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/house-republican-budgets-45-trillion-tax-cut-doubles-down-on-costly

3/5/2025 9:29:27 PM

Quote :

"Cancel the Trump 2017 tax cuts which are estimate to cost at least 4 Trillion over the next 10 years."

I'm fine with that. but...

Quote :

"neither obama or biden took seriously the project of reversing bush or trump tax cuts so that we could have balanced budgets. they all just let the debt pile up. this was inevitable and avoidable."

also, it's not enough

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-107138

Quote :

"As of September 30, 2024, the federal debt was $35.5 trillion—up $2.3 trillion from FY 2023. Interest on the debt in FY 2024 was $1,126.5 billion, an increase of $251.0 billion from FY 2023."

^ and if trump doesn't come back with a balanced budget and start paying down the debt (which I mostly expect to be the case), then yeah of course, that'll make for a big "promises made, promises broken" story and hopefully he pay for it politically. Democrats should be READY to pounce on that in the next elections (and so why not start about balancing the budget NOW) and say "trump talks about it, but we're actually going to do it." and then actually fucking do it.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 9:41 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2025 9:32:57 PM

Remember that time you apologized to rwoody?

I think you should similarly reflect on what you are doing in The Soap Box lately and why formerly like-minded individuals aren't going along with it.

I have really valued the way you have preserved and nurtured this site, but I don't recognize your positions in the past few months.

Of course, anyone is free to change their positions over time, and self-reflection and evolution in the face of new data should be broadly seen as a positive.

However, Elon Musk does not need defending. I mean, at baseline, any reasonable person should be able to admit that his companies have helped push the technological envelope and spur rapid development in some mostly favorable ways. However, making sure we thank him regularly for his accomplishments (J.D. Vance) shouldn't be a precondition for any commentary on his current activities. Why does it keep getting brought up as something to argue about and how the left has lost the plot because they don't recognize his accomplishments enough?

Here you go:

EVs are better than ICEs. It's cool to land a rocket on a floating platform. It's cool to catch a rocket out of the air.

Do you honestly think he is doing his political tour out of anything other than personal benefit and ego-tripping? He has chosen to align with a dangerous demagogue who is elevating incompetence, lowering the level of political discourse, straining the supposed balance of power, and busting every political norm we have at breakneck pace. Nothing the Democrats did or failed to do justifies this decision that he himself made and continues to make. There is something wrong with the guy. He's supporting AfD in Germany. Literally, WTF?! That's not OK.

I realize you can suspend me or even take the whole site down any time you want. I hope you won't do that. But why do you think what is apparently so obvious to you is so opaque to most of us? Is this just a different way of responding to trauma or what?

I'm massively disappointed with the Democrats, but I'm not going to get in line and support or legitimize what's going on and how it's being done.

3/5/2025 9:35:11 PM

And the goal posts moved!

I found a way to tax the rich, despite it being a "just a populist phrase"

I'm legitimately done though. Your responses to VA cuts and calling my concerns of an extremely likely possibility as "catastrophizing hysteria" is honestly downright disrespectful.

I'll echo what the Coz has said, your positions over the past few months are unrecognizable from the heyday of this site. I really wonder what the you of back then would say to your views now. This conversation is the most I've ever felt disrespected by you and I'm honestly a bit saddened by that.

3/5/2025 9:41:57 PM

Quote :

"Remember that time you apologized to rwoody?"

i apologized because i was rude. that hasn't been the case here. i just have different views and am expressing them in hopes that you people will see the reasonableness in them. especially given what I see (and hope others here generally have too) as my long positive reputation for thoughtfulness and respect for others.

but apparently just because i have different views on important topics, that's disrespectful.

that's fine. we'll see how things turn out in another 25 years.

[Edited on March 5, 2025 at 9:50 PM. Reason : this is why i made site4. these conversations work better face to face. even if it's digitally.]

3/5/2025 9:49:37 PM

Rolling your eyes at someone is disrespectful too. At least thats what teachers told me in elementary school...

3/5/2025 10:22:43 PM

^^I wasn't actually suggesting you needed to apologize, but maybe just take a little time to reflect on what has transpired and why it's basically you and CaelNCSU who I typically assume is being intentionally antagonistic on an island together.

Why does Elon Musk need any defense?

On this messageboard, of all places.

You don't find the way the way DOGE is operating as concerning?

Another thing that bothers me about Musk is that he thinks he's funny, but he isn't. What a weird guy who happens to have been super-effective in several areas. You know, before mostly alienating his early adopter fan base. Is MAGA going to buy all the Teslas now? It's tricky because they have been conditioned to hate EVs. But they also have very small penises, so they are great candidates for the Cybertruck, I guess.

bbehe finally cam eback, and now we have lost him again. RIP, COVID Brother!

3/5/2025 10:35:52 PM

Quote :

"You're forgetting yourself, Dufresne"

Belatedly appreciated.

3/5/2025 10:36:47 PM

AIndrewYaingBot posting as qntm itt

3/5/2025 11:06:18 PM

Candidates in reddish districts and states leaning toward the center makes sense; however, at a national level, I'm not sure that the 2024 presidential ticket could have been any more centrist/Republican-friendly than it was.

3/6/2025 6:48:05 AM

Quote :

"instead of letting it fester so bad that the American Voters decided to let Elon have a go at it."

This is trolling, right?

3/6/2025 9:14:17 AM

While I would generally agree that because President Evil won the election, he and his administration get to do the doing; as that is what the American voters chose. I whole heartidly reject the mantra that they have some sort of mandate to carry out their implicit desires on the country, unchecked. I think that voters also expect the other levers of government to check and balance the executive branch appropriately, sensibly, and in a timely manner.
I know the topic of this thread is the Dems; but we would be at a loss to not lay the blame where it belongs here. The GOP held congress has abdicated their power, checks, and balances in order to appease the administration. Just because the GOP is of the same party as the administration, doesn't mean that they need to go along with everything the administration does. It has become normalized to cheer your political party on like a damn football team.

As for the Dems... Yes, get your house in order. Get a coherent message. Regroup for the next election. Blah blah blah.... TBH, I think it is silly to vote them out of office, strip them of power, and then question why they aren't using their non-power to save us. It makes more sense to blame gullible voters for putting the country in this position, and for allowing themselves to fall victim to a years-long propaganda campaign.

3/6/2025 9:48:36 AM

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-votes-censure-rep-al-green-disrupting-trumps-speech-congress-rcna195020

Quote :

"House votes to censure Rep. Al Green for disrupting Trump's speech to Congress The vote was 224-198, with 10 Democrats joining all Republicans in approving the resolution."

fuck them

3/6/2025 11:58:00 AM

Quote :

"However, Elon Musk does not need defending. I mean, at baseline, any reasonable person should be able to admit that his companies have helped push the technological envelope and spur rapid development in some mostly favorable ways. "

I stand to be corrected, but that is not at all what I see going on ITT and the Elon thread. I'm not sure anyone here, other than you apparently, would admit he has done favorable things and if they did it would be with caveats.

99% of what's posted here is uncritical media slop that is riddled with propaganda beneath Fox News and not a single counter point is even presented. Even if unfair representations of courter points. Anything nuanced gets labeled right wing extremism or nazi.

Quote :

"He has chosen to align with a dangerous demagogue who is elevating incompetence, lowering the level of political discourse, straining the supposed balance of power, and busting every political norm we have at breakneck pace. Nothing the Democrats did or failed to do justifies this decision that he himself made and continues to make. "

The establishment (media, legal) was attacking Elon and his companies on multiple fronts. What option did he have? As I stated 4 years ago attack him at your peril--all indications are he is going to fight back. The democrats made their bed and isolated him. Elon had no other options.

Democrats totally deserve it. The bailouts and continued QE since 2008, Bernie betrayal, working class betrayal in favor of culture war, and endless wars. What incentive did democrats have to change when they could just live off free printed money and make fun of poor red state people with no options for thinking trans people are weird?

Everything in nature rots when it's unopposed. The democrats rotted to such a degree even Trump 2016 beat them. You need adversity and even chaos to build resiliency. Be Anti-Fragile.

Quote :

"will? as in with 100% certainty? nah. I don't think budget cuts in any organization are a foregone conclusion for worse performance for that organization's mission. "

I would say with 100% certainty there will 100 stories that Jimbo, MAGA veteran, died awaiting medical care because of said cuts. All media starts with narrative and selects stories to color the narrative. That model of the world predicts better than the rational one.

Quote :

"why it's basically you and CaelNCSU who I typically assume is being intentionally antagonistic on an island together."

On the "Big Five" personality test I score like 4th percentile agreeableness and like 90th in openness. I am prone to negativity towards anything establishment. If there is a corporate media campaign for it I'm going to hate it. The big irony being that I myself am a corporate whore. I'M SORRY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

3/6/2025 12:26:08 PM

Elon has done good things and been wildly rewarded for that. He is not owed public praise

Elon has done good things and then also done tons of things ranging from just weird to plain cruel, the latter things make it very hard to mention or care about the former things.

Quote :

"The establishment (media, legal) was attacking Elon and his companies on multiple fronts. What option did he have? As I stated 4 years ago attack him at your peril--all indications are he is going to fight back. The democrats made their bed and isolated him. Elon had no other options. "

What a sad story! What other recourse does the world's richest man have but to tear it all down??? What would become of him if he became slightly less rich?? Cutting government programs for less fortunate people is the only way to stabilize his businesses!

(also weren't SpaceX and tesla both benefitting from subsidies and contracts from the evil government?)

3/6/2025 1:21:17 PM

I think the beginning of Elon's heel turn was calling the cave divers pedophiles.

3/6/2025 1:24:36 PM

^ correct time frame. There was some union drama going on for Tesla and Elon pissed off the media somehow in his reaction to the story. The pedo thing followed that.

3/6/2025 1:35:25 PM