its no secret i still believe in Sid,

but its interesting how true this thread turned out to be:
message_topic.aspx?topic=465587

and its funny that we were hoping for good things out of degand and MARQUES JOHNSON

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 11:54 AM. Reason : .]

1/14/2009 11:49:16 AM

Quote :

"but i'd be willing to bet NO COACH could make this team a tournament contender."

If there were a way to prove this bet, I'd take you up on it.

There's enough talent on this team to be a bubble team. Since Lowe has been here, the fundamentals of dribbling, passing, and defense have declined. I'm tired of this damn "point guard" issue being the reason why we're this bad the last 2 years. We haven't had a true point guard since Justin Gainey.

Funny how the most success Lowe has had here was with a squad of Herb's players. Since then he hasn't been able to build on any of that. Hell,even with a first round pick on the roster last year, we finished last in the conference.

1/14/2009 11:56:15 AM

There were also two potential second rounders on that same team.

1/14/2009 11:59:00 AM

While Herb did produce decent teams, we are quick to forget that the team Sidney inherited was precariously thin (partially due to attrition/recruiting left by Herb, partially due to the poorly handled transition).

Herb's last team:
Tony Bethel (Senior)
Cam Bennerman (Senior)
Ilian Evtimov (Senior)
Ced Simmons (NBA)
Andrew Brackman (Baseball)
Engin Atsur
Gavin Grant
Courtney Fells
Ben McCauley
Brandon Costner

Herb's signed recruits:
Dan Werner (released to Florida)
Larry Davis (released to Seton Hall)
Dennis Horner

We lost 5 key players off of Herb's last team, and 2 of his 3 recruits before Herb got here. We also lost any chance of Chris Wright. Of the guys Sidney inherited, Atsur and Grant were the only ones that saw significant minutes.

Take a look at the talent gap with Sid's inherited team (6 scholarship players):


Inherited:
Atsur (Sr)
Grant (Jr)
McCauley (So)
Fells (So)
Costner (RFr)
Horner (Fr)

Emergency signees/transfer additions:
Lewandowski (never played, transferred)
Johnson (never panned out, transferred)
Degand (severe knee injury)
Ferguson
Harris


That is a deep hole to climb out of, and the only thing that is going to fix it is time, recruiting, and coaching. I want to see more production out of the remaining holdovers, but I'm not sure we'll ever really know until Sid's guys get in place.

The recruits he has brought in since the "emergency" class:
Hickson (NBA)
Smith
Thomas (battled injuries)
Gonzalez (signed because we were in desperate need of a PG)
Mays
Williams


I'm as disappointed as anyone with the results on the court, but let's have some perspective about what he is working with. He didn't exactly step in and coach the same team Herb had.

1/14/2009 12:20:05 PM

Quote :

"When was the last time we had two guys get even close to averaging 20 a game on the same team??"

We haven't even had ONE guy average 20 points a game in over a decade. I couldn't track it down, but I imagine Rodney Monroe was the last (?). Hodge never did.

I'll eat my own shit of CJ Williams ever scores 20 a game over a full season. 12 points a game in a year I'd take from him.

Quote :

"but last time the ones that laid an egg were costner, mccauley, and fells."

ONE FUCKING GAME. You guys act like these guys have fucked up every game that Sid's recruits have put us in position to win. And without Costner last night, we are down 20 a fucking dozen minutes in to the game. Do you not remember Costner nearly single handedly going in to Gainesville and beating UF?? The guy was nuts. He had a bad game. Oh well...

^ that's a very good point, but the fact is we did have talent. We just lacked an even passable PG. Hell, 2 years ago both Fells and Costner were all but locks to be draft picks (Costner even possibly a late 1st, early 2nd). Now they'll be lucky to sniff signing as an undrafted free agent for a summer league. You can't blame that entirely on the coach, but one of our main gripes with Herb was his inability to turn talent in to NBA players...

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 12:25 PM. Reason : x]

1/14/2009 12:24:59 PM

the 'his own players' shit has to stop. it's not, in any way, a decent argument.

'wait and see what he does w/ lorenzo brown', however, is solid

1/14/2009 12:26:02 PM

I... don't... fucking... GET IT...

It's like some of you out here are being deliberately ignorant about Lowe and the team. It's FUCKING SAD.

1) Yes Lowe had no college basketball experience, therefore he was going to have a LEARNING CURVE when he first started. It's like moving to Canada and then complaining all day and night about it being cold. You'd think you'd have seen that coming huh?

Now I know some of you dipshits out there are still bitter about getting Lowe in the first place. That's fine. I understand that. But Sidney IS our coach. Sendek is gone. And why? Probably b/c of you same fucking pathetic whiners who didn't stop bitching about anything and everything Herb did from the time he arrived to the time he left.

NEWSFLASH: Just b/c you didn't want Lowe to be coach THEN doesn't mean that it makes sense to fire him NOW. How about instead we make a FAIR FUCKING ASSESSMENT of his record so far? Is that OK with you guys?

2) Lowe wants to run a fast-paced up-tempo system. Tell me, how the FUCK is he supposed to make that change if he instead runs a "Herb-esque" offense? Is Lowe all of the sudden supposed to coach the team using a system he knows little about? And nevermind how much harder it makes his sales pitch on the recruiting trail when he's selling his "up-tempo offense."

Translation - the transition is IN PROGRESS. If you didn't see it coming, then you're an idiot. If you didn't expect a downturn as a result of the transition, then you're a giant fucking idiot.

Just for comparison, here's Coach K's record in his first 4 Years at Duke, which BTW was when he was up against Dean Smith and Norm Sloan/Jimmy V, both of which won titles during those same 4 years:

Year: Record [ACC record (rank)] - Postseason

1981: 17-13 [6-8 (t5)] - NIT
1982: 10-17 [4-10 (t6)] - none
1983: 11-17 [3-11 (7)] - none
1984: 24-10 [7-7 (t3)] - NCAA Tournament

Now, does that look similar to any of you?


3) Yes Lowe made mistakes in recruiting. He's also corrected them, as evidenced by the emergence of HIS recruits this year and last year. Those corrections will translate into more wins when Lowe's recruits, NOT Herb's, are the seasoned veterans leading the team.

But no, you fucks ignore the fact that Sidney Lowe came in starting from ground zero on the recruiting trail. You ignore the fact that he lost some of Herb recruits b/c of that one simple fact. You yawn at the fact that Lowe was able to bring in J.J. Hickson, a recruit with talent unseen at State for at least a decade. You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State.

4) Sidney Lowe is NOT getting fired this year. Don't even mention it as a possibility, b/c if you are, then you're overlooking and incredibly fucking obvious reason to hang onto Lowe - he's a link to the past.

Lowe isn't just an alumni. He's a symbol of the program back during it's glory years. He represents what Wolfpack basketball is capable of being - which is a powerhouse in the ACC and on the national scene. Kicking Lowe to the curb prematurely would have profound repercussions. The ONLY way a former player and champion like Lowe should go is by stepping down honorably (ala Les Robinson). This is not a guy who is embarrassing the program (ala Chuck Amato in football). He's a new coach struggling to establish himself in a tough league and in a tough game.


Now STFU all of you. I was already pissed off about the loss. Then I have to fucking see this same shit again in this God-forsaken cesspool of a thread. Damn all of you for your collective ignorance of Sidney Lowe, NC State, and anything resembling common-freaking-sense.


I'm out.



[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:01 PM. Reason : [Edited on January 14, 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason : f]]

1/14/2009 12:37:09 PM

Quote :

"Every team has a couple of guys that need to play well for them to win. They have to, and we are no different"

This is a quote from Sid

We need Ben to play well. Dude has pulled a fells and disappeared

We need Costner to play well the whole fucking game. Not this 10 min on, 10 min off shit he likes to do.

We need fells to play well and he never has, which I guess can be somewhat attributed to being nicked up so much. Shit I cant remember the last time he played well a full game.

We are going to have a hard time winning anything when our supposedly 3 best players play like shit.


If Felton has a bad game, UNC struggles.

If Curry has a bad game, Davidson struggles.

If smith/paulus have a bad game, Duke struggles


The point stands that we need more consistant play out of our big 3. Whether or not that is coaching or our players being in a slump (big ben), thats debatable.

1/14/2009 12:47:35 PM

Quote :

""When was the last time we had two guys get even close to averaging 20 a game on the same team??""

It's kinda rare that the entire ACC has two guys that average 20 ppg.

This year it's Hansbro and Teague so far, year before it was Hansbro and Rice, and the 6 seasons previous to that it was only one guy in the ACC at 20.0 or higher.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 12:53 PM. Reason : The all-time at NCSU is Fuller, Googs, Monroe, Carr, Thompson, Burleson, Williford, Lakins, Shavlik. And Sammy Ranzino]

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 12:54 PM. Reason : .]

1/14/2009 12:47:41 PM

Quote :

"Lowe wants to run a fast-paced up-tempo system."

I keep hearing/reading this on TWW, are we assuming this to be the case?

Has he ever come out and said that before? I'm asking because it seems like his recruiting efforts are focused on getting solid big guys first... doesn't seem like a good way to build a fast-paced system to me. I was always under the impression he wanted to run a slower half-court offense

1/14/2009 12:54:09 PM

Howell can run pretty well if I remember correctly

Favors can too but he is picking GT tonight


Leslie as well

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 12:55 PM. Reason : leslie]

1/14/2009 12:55:37 PM

^^^ My only worry is these idiots start going to games to boo Lowe.

1/14/2009 12:57:11 PM

Quote :

"If Felton has a bad game, UNC struggles. "

1/14/2009 1:00:16 PM

Quote :

"I keep hearing/reading this on TWW, are we assuming this to be the case? Has he ever come out and said that before? I'm asking because it seems like his recruiting efforts are focused on getting solid big guys first... doesn't seem like a good way to build a fast-paced system to me. I was always under the impression he wanted to run a slower half-court offense"

You have to recruit a PG to run said system. That's been Lowe's problem. Mays looks OK for this role, and Brown will be even better if he lieves up to the hype.

1/14/2009 1:03:32 PM

hah yeah remember how we were looking toward the end of the season two years ago

it's amazing what a decent point guard can get you, you know, getting the ball to our players when they're actually in a position to score

now we can't get the ball inside to save our lives

McCauley, Costner, any of them shouldn't have to be trying to drive into traffic from the 3pt line at the end of a shot clock just because our offense totally broke down again and again

1/14/2009 1:06:58 PM

I don't feel like getting in to an argument on this today, but has Coach K become like Adolf Hitler in Godwin's Law (look at that... I invoked Godwin's Law while referencing it -- I win this thread). What does K have to do with anything?

For every coach that struggled for 3 or 4 years who made it, there are 2 dozen more who continued to struggle and suck...

Quote :

"You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State."

Well, that's because they didn't. His class in 2007 was far better than his class in 2008 which is far worse than his class in 2009.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:10 PM. Reason : wording]

1/14/2009 1:09:03 PM

Yes, Lowe has said, on several occasions, that he wants to run a fast-paced up-tempo system.

1/14/2009 1:09:09 PM

still credible

1/14/2009 1:14:20 PM

Quote :

"If Felton has a bad game, UNC struggles. "

the point still stands



[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM. Reason : god damnit]

1/14/2009 1:31:32 PM

Quote :

"1981: 17-13 [6-8 (t5)] - NIT 1982: 10-17 [4-10 (t6)] - none 1983: 11-17 [3-11 (7)] - none 1984: 24-10 [7-7 (t3)] - NCAA Tournament Now, does that look similar to any of you?"

Call me back next year when we make the NCAA tournament.

Quote :

"Yes Lowe had no college basketball experience, therefore he was going to have a LEARNING CURVE when he first started. It's like moving to Canada and then complaining all day and night about it being cold. You'd think you'd have seen that coming huh?"

The mother fucker played in college and had plenty of coaching experience in the NBA. Let's not act like we hired Bobby Valentine to coach our fucking basketball team. While some people might be jumping on the "FIRE SID" bandwagon too early...I think you're giving his WAY too much cushion.

Quote :

"ranslation - the transition is IN PROGRESS. If you didn't see it coming, then you're an idiot. If you didn't expect a downturn as a result of the transition, then you're a giant fucking idiot."

Transition to what?? Being a shitty fucking program?? You still gotta win games. You don't completely sacrifice seasons just because you're trying to run a certain offense 2 fucking years from now. You can still transition and play to your player's strengths (which I don't think Sid knows how to do).

Quote :

"Lowe isn't just an alumni. He's a symbol of the program back during it's glory years. He represents what Wolfpack basketball is capable of being - which is a powerhouse in the ACC and on the national scene. Kicking Lowe to the curb prematurely would have profound repercussions. The ONLY way a former player and champion like Lowe should go is by stepping down honorably (ala Les Robinson). This is not a guy who is embarrassing the program (ala Chuck Amato in football). He's a new coach struggling to establish himself in a tough league and in a tough game."

I hate this. College sports is a business. We followed this mantra and gave Amato more years than he deserved and it allowed UNC and a few other teams to slip by us. TOB has righted the ship...but keeping Amato because he was a "symbol of the program back during it's glory years" set our program back a little. We don't owe Lowe anything that we shouldn't owe coach John Fucking Doe from Alaska.

Quote :

"You yawn at the fact that Lowe was able to bring in J.J. Hickson, a recruit with talent unseen at State for at least a decade."

Oh come the fuck on. Hodge was a top-10 recruit and we've had plenty of other McDAAs. We weren't even fighting the UNC/Duke powerhouses for Hickson. Hickson might have been the best we've had in a long time, but it's not like Sid went head-to-head with the big ballers and got him. I'll give him credit for landing JJ...but I'm not going to give him extra slack because of it. Keep landing a Hickson a class and and I'll give him some props...but that hasn't happened.

Quote :

"Sidney Lowe is NOT getting fired this year. Don't even mention it as a possibility, b/c if you are, then you're overlooking and incredibly fucking obvious reason to hang onto Lowe - he's a link to the past."

You never know. Just based on performance, yeah, he won't be gone. But shit happens. Dude could have violations, get a DUI...I don't know. Just saying...never say never. (by the way...I'm not wishing it on him...just saying crazier shit has happened...this is NC State we're talking about here).

[Disclaimer: I think the best thing for this program would be for Sidney Lowe to succeed. I just don't see it happening. I wish it would...but I'm just worried that he won't be able to right the ship and we're gonna be back to where the program was when Les Robinson left us. I just hope our football program will be up there to take some of the grief off.]

1/14/2009 1:36:27 PM

Lowe will not be fired this year. IMO, if he doesn't make the NCAA's in year 5-6 he'll be out.

That said, I think he's just hitting his recruiting stride and we will hopefully see some improvement from here on out. I haven't been impressed with his team and lack of fundamentals on the court, but it's not debatable that he inherited a stripped lineup and got a late jump on recruiting.

IMO, any coach that took over would have a rebuilding job. If I'm not mistaken, before Sids first year we lost our top 3 or 4 scorers from the year before. Unfortunately we had a few recruits that backed out when Herb left which also hurt us alot.

I think Herb had banked on Degand and Fergie to be solid players for him in the future (Probably backing up Davis and Wright), but neither has shown that they're ACC calibre players and Davis/Wright both never made it to State. IMO, if we give the guards a chance to get some experience and grow up we'll be alot better. Mays looks to be our future, and I've really liked what I've seen from all of Sid's recruits (Williams, Mays, Thomas, Smith). That really is all that gives me hope with this team.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:48 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2009 1:47:23 PM

Sidney Lowe is our coach next year if Lee Fowler is our AD.

The buck stops there, with the exception of one potentially lucky hire (need to finish above .500 before we can start hailing TOB) his credibility is the one that should be trashed.

1/14/2009 1:48:10 PM

TOB contacted NC State for the job. He came to Lee Fowler....much like he inquired about the UNC job

Lee would have never landed O'Brien on his own.

...and IMO, TOB is one of the top 20 coaches in the country. He'll be great for NC State and possibly do much more here than he did at BC (If he can build the program before he retires)


V Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing at all...just throwing that out there in case someone reading this didn't know that

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2009 1:50:05 PM

That's why it would be a "lucky hire"

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 1:50 PM. Reason : typo]

1/14/2009 1:50:39 PM

There are two camps here:

Those who say 'give it time, itll get better', which is pretty standard NC State yearly wishing.

and

Those who look at NC State sports history and believe we'll be continuously terrible.

The only truth that can be agreed upon is that we've played like crap up to this point over Lowes entire tenure. Maybe itll get better, but don't excuse the fact that the product he has put on display for the last three years has been absolute junk.

1/14/2009 2:17:56 PM

I would not consider Lowe's first year "playing like crap" We went to the ACC tourney final with a pieced together team. Actually a pretty amazing coaching feat for a first year coach.

1/14/2009 2:59:10 PM

still credible

1/14/2009 3:16:38 PM

Gavin Grant, on the other hand, is not credible any longer.

Credit Card Fraud! Awesome!

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 3:30 PM. Reason : he made a promise to commit fraud no more than four times?]

1/14/2009 3:30:12 PM

Not really adder, considering what Les Robinson did in his first year, or Herb for that matter.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 3:32 PM. Reason : >.<]

1/14/2009 3:31:51 PM

GAvin Grant was never credible. "Only lose 4 games".

1/14/2009 3:37:21 PM

Quote :

"While Herb did produce decent teams, we are quick to forget that the team Sidney inherited was precariously thin (partially due to attrition/recruiting left by Herb, partially due to the poorly handled transition). Herb's last team: Tony Bethel (Senior) Cam Bennerman (Senior) Ilian Evtimov (Senior) Ced Simmons (NBA) Andrew Brackman (Baseball) Engin Atsur Gavin Grant Courtney Fells Ben McCauley Brandon Costner Herb's signed recruits: Dan Werner (released to Florida) Larry Davis (released to Seton Hall) Dennis Horner We lost 5 key players off of Herb's last team, and 2 of his 3 recruits before Herb got here. We also lost any chance of Chris Wright. Of the guys Sidney inherited, Atsur and Grant were the only ones that saw significant minutes. Take a look at the talent gap with Sid's inherited team (6 scholarship players): Inherited: Atsur (Sr) Grant (Jr) McCauley (So) Fells (So) Costner (RFr) Horner (Fr) Emergency signees/transfer additions: Lewandowski (never played, transferred) Johnson (never panned out, transferred) Degand (severe knee injury) Ferguson Harris That is a deep hole to climb out of, and the only thing that is going to fix it is time, recruiting, and coaching. I want to see more production out of the remaining holdovers, but I'm not sure we'll ever really know until Sid's guys get in place. The recruits he has brought in since the "emergency" class: Hickson (NBA) Smith Thomas (battled injuries) Gonzalez (signed because we were in desperate need of a PG) Mays Williams I'm as disappointed as anyone with the results on the court, but let's have some perspective about what he is working with. He didn't exactly step in and coach the same team Herb had."

that was a solid post... it really boiled things down well for me to relax on Sidney a little bit. The lack of success IS his fault. But I'm almost feeling there is not much he can do about it. Time and patience. Hey it's just a game right? not

1/14/2009 3:44:02 PM

Quote :

"We went to the ACC tourney final with a pieced together team."

That tourney run was about 90% attributable to Costner. Next to Randolph Childress, probably the single greatest ACC tournament performance.

1/14/2009 4:04:37 PM

Quote :

"You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State."

Thank god his recruiting classes are getting better, because the product on the court is getting worse!

I don't understand the whole cupboard is bare argument, when (after losing one player) we went from "outside shot at the NCAA/near ACC Champion" to "ACC embarassment".

That's not "the cupboard is bare". That's "our coach is terrible".

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 4:27 PM. Reason : .]

1/14/2009 4:21:53 PM

Quote :

"Quote : "While Herb did produce decent teams, we are quick to forget that the team Sidney inherited was precariously thin (partially due to attrition/recruiting left by Herb, partially due to the poorly handled transition). Herb's last team: Tony Bethel (Senior) Cam Bennerman (Senior) Ilian Evtimov (Senior) Ced Simmons (NBA) Andrew Brackman (Baseball) Engin Atsur Gavin Grant Courtney Fells Ben McCauley Brandon Costner Herb's signed recruits: Dan Werner (released to Florida) Larry Davis (released to Seton Hall) Dennis Horner We lost 5 key players off of Herb's last team, and 2 of his 3 recruits before Herb got here. We also lost any chance of Chris Wright. Of the guys Sidney inherited, Atsur and Grant were the only ones that saw significant minutes. Take a look at the talent gap with Sid's inherited team (6 scholarship players): Inherited: Atsur (Sr) Grant (Jr) McCauley (So) Fells (So) Costner (RFr) Horner (Fr) Emergency signees/transfer additions: Lewandowski (never played, transferred) Johnson (never panned out, transferred) Degand (severe knee injury) Ferguson Harris That is a deep hole to climb out of, and the only thing that is going to fix it is time, recruiting, and coaching. I want to see more production out of the remaining holdovers, but I'm not sure we'll ever really know until Sid's guys get in place. The recruits he has brought in since the "emergency" class: Hickson (NBA) Smith Thomas (battled injuries) Gonzalez (signed because we were in desperate need of a PG) Mays Williams I'm as disappointed as anyone with the results on the court, but let's have some perspective about what he is working with. He didn't exactly step in and coach the same team Herb had." "

How could you forget Nieman??

1/14/2009 4:28:10 PM

1/14/2009 4:42:03 PM

In Sid's first year, he had practically the same players except we had a reliable point gaurd. We only played 6 or 7 players back then, which is one of the problems now. We don't need 12 people playing every game. We need a core group that plays 30 min a game to stick with. Most of all we need leadership. We don't have it at all. We just run around like morons.

1/14/2009 4:48:24 PM

Quote :

"Thank god his recruiting classes are getting better, because the product on the court is getting worse! I don't understand the whole cupboard is bare argument, when (after losing one player) we went from "outside shot at the NCAA/near ACC Champion" to "ACC embarassment". That's not "the cupboard is bare". That's "our coach is terrible"."

The regular season record was

15-14 (5-11),
then after losing Atsur, then Degand for the season, then Javi as a Fr with an injured thumb, then playing Marques Johnson, who wasn't too good,
15-15 (4-12),
to so far 9-5 (0-2).


There wasn't much in the pantry when Lowe got here, and then NC State shit happened. And we did one game worse.

1/14/2009 4:49:01 PM

We may have only lost one more game, but the attitude, heart, drive of the team went downhill in season 2.

1/14/2009 4:53:02 PM

thats because we have a team of gigantic fucking pussies

with ben and costner leading the way of biggest vag with sand in it

1/14/2009 5:04:11 PM

Quote :

"Just for comparison, here's Coach K's record in his first 4 Years at Duke, which BTW was when he was up against Dean Smith and Norm Sloan/Jimmy V, both of which won titles during those same 4 years:"

First off, the statement that I responded to said that NO coach would be able to take our team to the NCAA... NOT any coach in his first four years of coaching college basketball. I still believe that if Coach K (again I hate Coach K, but can't argue with his performance) was here TODAY - not Coach K circa 1982- then we would make the tournament.

Quote :

"You yawn at the fact that Lowe was able to bring in J.J. Hickson, a recruit with talent unseen at State for at least a decade. You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State."

You're right, Sidney did bring in an incredible talent in JJ, but what did he do with the talent? FINISHED LAST IN THE CONFERENCE and ended the year with nine straight losses. You say that his recruiting classes have improved every year, but you overlook the fact that every year we have finished worse then the year before. To any person with a brain, that means coaching is the problem. I'm all for grinding it out for a few years while our program struggles under a new coach, but honestly, finishing last in the conference while we see a lack of intensity from our players towards the end of the game is completely unacceptable.

I will still go to the games and cheer on our team everytime they step on the court, but if our team is underperforming then we, as supporters, have a right to criticize and be cynical. Yes, it was a bad loss last night and we all are angry about it, so let people bitch about it. Get off you fucking high horse and join us in the real world where we expect Division 1, scholarship athletes play up to their potential and have a coach who puts our team in the best situation to win the game (meaning NOT playing Horner while BC and Ben sit on the bench). When you have tens of thousands of people come to watch you play, how can you show no intensity? That just boggles my mind.

1/14/2009 5:04:50 PM

^^^I'd get pretty wore out too if I ran down the court just to watch someone turn the ball over. repeat 20 times a game.

Kinda like how Beck can come in to play QB in the place of Russell Wilson and the complexion of the whole football team changes.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 5:07 PM. Reason : .]

1/14/2009 5:06:05 PM

A PG is the heart and soul of the team (The QB, basically). We sucked Sid's 1st year until Atsur came back, then we played much better

After the loss of Atsur, we didn't have a single option at PG. We got close but eventually lost Chris Wright. Javi was an 'oh crap, we need a PG' player. Not picking on him, but he was our backup.

I also think that post above was wrong...didn't Degand come in under Herb, not Sid?

Anywho, I truly believe what has hurt us is lack of experienced and talented guards. We can't dribble and we can't hit a jumpshot to save our lives. Our young PG's get abused by more experienced guards on the defensive end as well. Mays gives me hope there for the future and Wall would be even better.

I'm as concerned as anyone about lack of heart, fundamentals, etc... but I truly think our problem is a bare cupboard of guards. The reason no one is trying....I hope.... is the Marcus Stone effect. Our defense in football stopped trying there for a few years under Davis/Stone becuase...really, what's the point in trying

Quote :

"^^^I'd get pretty wore out too if I ran down the court just to watch someone turn the ball over. repeat 20 times a game. Kinda like how Beck can come in to play QB in the place of Russell Wilson and the complexion of the whole football team changes."

My point exactly. That's what I mean by the Marcus Stone effect

I truly hope that's the only problem. I think the laziness is from that or the fact that the whiny players now have a coach that won't let them just stand around and shoot 3's and wants them in shape.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 5:09 PM. Reason : ]

1/14/2009 5:07:50 PM

Quote :

"scholarship athletes play up to their potential and have a coach who puts our team in the best situation to win the game (meaning NOT playing Horner while BC and Ben sit on the bench). When you have tens of thousands of people come to watch you play, how can you show no intensity? That just boggles my mind. "

he did that last night bud

With horner in we pulled a 4 point lead, with costner in along with fells and ben, we scored 2 points. Meanwhile, FSU scored fucking 19.

Costner was on lollerskates for most of the game.

PSA: Not defending Horner cause I think he is terrible but he was in there when we were pulling away.

1/14/2009 5:09:13 PM

^^ re: Degand

http://www.statefansnation.com/index.php/archives/2006/06/14/lowe-landing-recruits/

1/14/2009 5:18:17 PM

I must be getting old. I swear I'm losing my mind... my years are running together. Hell, I thought Bartosz played for Herb too

1/14/2009 5:21:46 PM

I just want you guys to realize that you're basically arguing that trading a mediocre-at-best point guard for a first round NBA-caliber bigman made us a substantially worse team.

I liked Atsur as much as anyone, and I get the whole "PG is the QB" crap, but look at what you're trying to argue here and be reasonable.

Not to mention if the team has no heart, no drive, and no leadership, who do you blame for those things?

I don't know, maybe the guy who is supposed to be coaching the team?

1/14/2009 6:46:58 PM

Here is the correct order of events:

Lowe lands at least one of those top recruits (wall/favors/cousins) or we get better. If not, Lowe is on the hot seat and Fowler must be fired. Honestly, if we get Wall and don't make the NCAAT, Lowe should also be on the hot seat. You can't waste NBA-level talent like that. One superstar guard is good enough to make a tournament team.

The next year after that, we have to make a tourney. If not, Lowe gets the boot.

It is imperative that Fowler gets fired 6 months-1year before we fire Lowe. The redneck should not be allowed to make another hiring decision. We need the new AD in place ready to perform a search.

(New AD has to be someone with an eye for talent, knowledge of the game, and strong connections with people who also know the game. This is how we found valvano, this is how most great coaches are discovered. It's rare for a school to be able to buy a "name" coach.)

1/14/2009 6:55:28 PM

Quote :

"You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State."

so in one paragraph you make JJ sound like a basketball jesus and in the next you claim that mays and williams are better?

1/14/2009 7:18:38 PM

Quote :

"Just for comparison, here's Coach K's record in his first 4 Years at Duke, which BTW was when he was up against Dean Smith and Norm Sloan/Jimmy V, both of which won titles during those same 4 years: First off, the statement that I responded to said that NO coach would be able to take our team to the NCAA... NOT any coach in his first four years of coaching college basketball. I still believe that if Coach K (again I hate Coach K, but can't argue with his performance) was here TODAY - not Coach K circa 1982- then we would make the tournament. You yawn at the fact that Lowe was able to bring in J.J. Hickson, a recruit with talent unseen at State for at least a decade. You downplay or dismiss outright the notion that Lowe's recruiting classes have IMPROVED every year he's coached at State. You're right, Sidney did bring in an incredible talent in JJ, but what did he do with the talent? FINISHED LAST IN THE CONFERENCE and ended the year with nine straight losses. You say that his recruiting classes have improved every year, but you overlook the fact that every year we have finished worse then the year before. To any person with a brain, that means coaching is the problem. I'm all for grinding it out for a few years while our program struggles under a new coach, but honestly, finishing last in the conference while we see a lack of intensity from our players towards the end of the game is completely unacceptable. I will still go to the games and cheer on our team everytime they step on the court, but if our team is underperforming then we, as supporters, have a right to criticize and be cynical. Yes, it was a bad loss last night and we all are angry about it, so let people bitch about it. Get off you fucking high horse and join us in the real world where we expect Division 1, scholarship athletes play up to their potential and have a coach who puts our team in the best situation to win the game (meaning NOT playing Horner while BC and Ben sit on the bench). When you have tens of thousands of people come to watch you play, how can you show no intensity? That just boggles my mind."

Damn well posted. Welcome to Sports Talk gregtd11.

[Edited on January 14, 2009 at 10:34 PM. Reason : Nice 2nd post]

1/14/2009 10:33:52 PM

I personally like the post in: http://wolfpackhoops.blogspot.com/2009/01/steady-wolfpack-nationsteady.html. Pretty spot on to how I feel. Great write-up

I am amazed at the amount of Lowe hate in here. Truly amazed. Is he an awesome coach? No. Will he ever be? Who knows. But I know that it's not like he sits back and eats CookOut reading the paper during practice. All the players talk about the fundamentals Lowe drills into them. They talk about him encouraging making the right decisions. How he wants a fast-paced, running offense and how he conditioned them for it. And then in the game... nothing. No running. The guards pick up the dribble at half court. McCauley is helping on a double team 4 feet beyond the 3 line. You think Lowe told him to do that? He should know better and I'm sure he does. But he still did it. I'm sure Lowe didn't tell Fells to jack up 4-5 3's from fucking Fuquay in the last 3 mins of the game. But he still did it. I'm pretty sure Lowe didn't badly-coach Ferg to miss every damn shot he took. I highly doubt Lowe tells Horner to pump-fake his way into a turnover. I don't think Lowe coached Javi on how to dribble off his own damn foot.

You get the idea. Lowe may not be an elite coach, but to put all of the blame on him is fucking ludicrous. Guess what... I could be coached by Roy Williams for an entire year and I guaran-damn-tee I would still suck in an actual ACC game. Point is, our players are not that good. Period. People scream about taking certain people out. OK. So he does that. Then what? Who else can come in and take over? Other than Mays showing some damn balls, who else can he turn to? Consider that the next time you cuss his substitutions. Like he said in the post-game... EVERY TEAM wants to put in the seniors/starters/best players in the last minutes to bring the game home. EVERY FUCKING TEAM. He tried it and our starters blew it. OMG, Lowe coached the stupid decisions and missed shots. Right.

Costner and Fells are dripping with potential, but just aren't consistent. I don't remember seeing Lowe on the sideline telling Costner to take it slow and casually walk around the perimeter and then take a bad shot. Give me a break. Lowe may be a little less flexible on getting out of his NBA-style thought process, but if we actually had GOOD players, this wouldn't be an issue.

I've said from the beginning that I'd give at least 5-6 yrs before I pass serious judgment and start calling for his head. I don't see what is so hard about that. Stop crying like bitches and support your team AND THE COACH. Jesus, go jump on the UNC bandwagon if you hate it so much here.

Oh and yes, fuck Lee Fowler. LOL

/too many words

1/15/2009 3:25:48 AM