Quote :

" it means, 99 percent of the women who use it right dont get pregnant"

Ooh! Page 7!

Just for the record, and just because its interesting, my doctor once mentioned that bc pills are 100% effective if you really do take them properly; she said that the 99% was accounting for human error.

But, she isn't the FDA.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:51 AM. Reason : Moo]

8/8/2005 1:51:07 AM

GoldenViper, on the side of a condom box, Trojan admits that its condoms are not entirely effective--even when used properly, I believe. If you watch TV at all, I'm sure you've seen an ad where they explain that birth control is only 99 percent effective.

As a former birth control consumer, I can vouch that my doctor explained to me the fallability (sp? even a word?) of the pill. Since jlphip says otherwise, I'm going to go look it up.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:52 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 1:52:09 AM

last i checked birth control was sent by the devil

i wish BC would be like candy to get access to, but we've got to deal with conservatives groups teaching kids crazy ass shit like tears spread aids and condoms dont work


the right simply thinks we can stop these teen pregancies by taking away birth control and telling them not to fuck

theyll fuck. then they demand no abortions. so their kids grow up with parents who didnt want them, and teh cycle continues, bc those kids have shitty parents.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:54 AM. Reason : - ]

8/8/2005 1:53:20 AM

Quote :

"This is about MEN and WOMEN in the USA."

What, so now men and women are the only groups that have to be equal? The two groups that have the least chance of becoming equal ever because of simple physiological differences?

And you even fucking say that we're all about equality between groups other than genders.

Christ, woman, is your internal censor on a break or something?

8/8/2005 1:54:42 AM

yeah, I know it's not 100%

but how many 9s are after the . really count here

8/8/2005 1:55:18 AM

Quote :

"Over the course of 1 year, five to eight out of 100 typical couples who rely on the Pill to prevent pregnancy will have an accidental pregnancy. Of course, this is an average figure and the chance of getting pregnant depends on whether you take your birth control pills every day. The Pill is an effective form of birth control, but even missing 1 day increases the chance of getting pregnant. In general, how well each type of birth control method works depends on a lot of things. These include whether a person has any health conditions or is taking any medications or herbal supplements that might interfere with its use. For example, antibiotics or an herb like St. John's wort can interfere with the effectiveness of the Pill. How well a particular method of birth control works also depends on whether the method chosen is convenient - and whether the person remembers to use it correctly all the time."

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/contraception/contraception_birth.html

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 1:59 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 1:55:46 AM

You seem to be very tense, GrumpyGOP, perhaps you should take a five minute break to meditate.

8/8/2005 1:56:12 AM

Quote :

"Ooh! Page 7! Just for the record, and just because its interesting, my doctor once mentioned that bc pills are 100% effective if you really do take them properly; she said that the 99% was accounting for human error. But, she isn't the FDA."

im sorry you were lied to. my number of 99 percent can be verfied by 5 seconds of googling or reading some prescribing info for any BC hormone method

8/8/2005 1:56:14 AM

What do you want out of me, moron? The woman is contradicting herself in the span of two sentences as a means of trying to throw out analogies as a tool of argument. I can't just stand back and watch her make a fool of herself.

8/8/2005 1:57:29 AM

Quote :

"You seem to be very tense, GrumpyGOP, perhaps you should take a five minute break to meditate."

Maybe he should go get laid?



(sry, couldn't resist...)

8/8/2005 1:57:47 AM

^I think "meditate" was code for masturbate.

^Did you read about how birth control is not always effective?

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:00 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 1:59:47 AM

Quote :

"No definition of organism I've ever encountered includes two separate cells that are not interacting with each other."

The sperm and the egg don't interact? This is news to me.

Quote :

"Humans are multicellular organisms, rendering all of this moot."

Obviously, my point was that your cells grow, was the cell that split off of cell 1 ever cell 1? No, Much like how an egg was never a sperm. They are processes in growth, the fetus is just one zygote is just one step ahead. It is arbitrary to pick that point as the begining of human life when it has no definable differences between a sperm and an egg except that it is furth down the growth progression.

Quote :

"You're contradicting yourself."

The dependancy period is different for each fetus, but it is unchanged by technology.

8/8/2005 2:00:15 AM

^^ ah

that would make sense

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:00 AM. Reason : ^^]

8/8/2005 2:00:28 AM

Quote :

"What do you want out of me, moron? The woman is contradicting herself in the span of two sentences as a means of trying to throw out analogies as a tool of argument. I can't just stand back and watch her make a fool of herself."

I know how you feel, but you have to realize that on a message board, it's easy for some one to misunderstand you. On top of that, different people perceive the world in different ways, through different levels of intelligence, experience, and the ways their brain processes information. If you feel that you are not being understand, instead of getting pissed off and cursing, try to figure out why someone is not understanding you. If it turns out they are truly an idiot (which happens sometimes), feel free to call them out on it. However, if it turns out that you may be wrong, humbly admit it, and reorganize your views and arguments around it.

Most of the regulars in the Soap Box though aren't completely idiotic.

edit: by meditate, I really meant meditate... masturbation can sometimes wind you up even more

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:04 AM. Reason : 2]

8/8/2005 2:03:15 AM

Quote :

"The sperm and the egg don't interact? This is news to me."

When they interact, they make a zygote, which is an organism. It would thus be pointless for you to mention them except in their separate state.

Quote :

"Obviously, my point was that your cells grow, was the cell that split off of cell 1 ever cell 1?"

Cell 1 is not a person and it is not its own organism, it is part of a zygote, a person, an organism.

Quote :

"The dependancy period is different for each fetus, but it is unchanged by technology."

You're still contradicting yourself, but at this point I've tried at least a half-dozen times to clarify the situation and I've always been confounded by your repetitions of mutually exclusive concepts and frequent cop-outs. I'm really at a loss for how to proceed.

8/8/2005 2:03:55 AM

Quote :

"If you feel that you are not being understand, instead of getting pissed off and cursing, try to figure out why someone is not understanding you."

No man, I know she understands what I'm saying, and I understand what she's saying, and it is self-contradictory and obviously a bastardization of any means of argument accepted in the age of reason.

8/8/2005 2:05:55 AM

Quote :

"^Did you read about how birth control is not always effective? "

nothing will EVER stop people from having sex. its unnatural. our beloved baby boomer parents didnt wait till they were 30. never in history has someone said "just ignore those urges till your 30".

teh only people who used to have any credibility on abstinence were catholic priests....and they went down the shitter

8/8/2005 2:06:00 AM

^Dude, I agree. That was one of my initial premises.

I know why I bother folks like GrumpyGOP. I appear to be intelligent, but my conclusions don't match his. It's frustrating, and I realize this.

One thing that should be understood about me (if anyone cares) is that these are really my ideas. I've been thinking about this issue for months and bouncing my ideas off friends and family, changing them accordingly, reading literature on the matter (mostly just the internet though), etc... I've made a personal investment in my ideas, and it bothers me when they cannot even be appreciated. (I don't really set them up to be appreciated though, huh?)

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:11 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 2:10:01 AM

This thread reminds me of an epigram I heard a while back

"Teaching kids abstinence cures teen pregnancy like telling someone 'have a nice day' cures depression." I think that someone from planned parenthood said that.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:12 AM. Reason : sp]

8/8/2005 2:11:38 AM

hmm... one 1996 study (and a 1987 one) found that 50-60% of women going for abortions were using some contraceptive

so yeah, that is a pretty big chunk

8/8/2005 2:11:57 AM

Quote :

"I know why I bother folks like GrumpyGOP. I appear to be intelligent, but my conclusions don't match his. It's frustrating, and I realize this. "

I wouldn't get too cocky if I were you.

Admittedly, i've only read your posts for the past 3 or so pages, but my take on you is that you're right about the birth control thing, but overall, you're not the brightest bulb on the tree.

I personally believe GrumpyGOP has stronger analytical skills than you, but he has been hobbled by certain conservative forces in his meat life (just a guess).

8/8/2005 2:13:04 AM

By what possible standard do you appear to be intelligent? Short of literacy, I'm not getting it.

Look, in the span of two sentences you said, "This is only about equality between men and women," and "equality between sexes, races, religions, etc is important."

Every time you've run into an argument that struck you as difficult, you've said, "well that's not what I'm talking about so it doesn't matter," even when those things are analogies that are very much relevant to what you're talking about.

She's screaming about wanting to "level the playing field," then saying she really only wants the particular playing field in which she's involved to be the one that gets leveled, because levelling others would really inconvenience her.

Quote :

"hmm... one 1996 study (and a 1987 one) found that 50-60% of women going for abortions were using some contraceptive"

Oh yeah? I want to know the details on that. How many of these bitches thought that having their bare-dicked partner pull out at the last minute was a contraceptive?

8/8/2005 2:14:06 AM

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:15 AM. Reason : was about withdrawal int the study but damnit grumpy beat me to it and said it better]

8/8/2005 2:14:41 AM

moron, I agree with you. I think we define "intelligent" differently...been to Chit Chat lately?

As far as what GrumpyGOP is saying, I don't get it. Doesn't the government strive to provide equal rights for folks of all races, ethnicities, genders, religions, etc...? Isn't that kinda like a law or something? I don't know what AIDS, Africa, hemophilia, etc...have to do with anything.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:19 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 2:15:01 AM

not having abortions causes more abortions

if someone doesnt have an abortion, the kids get raised in a shit home, they end up getting pregant at 17..it will never end if abortions arent common place

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:17 AM. Reason : -]

8/8/2005 2:17:32 AM

Quote :

"Oh yeah? I want to know the details on that. How many of these bitches thought that having their bare-dicked partner pull out at the last minute was a contraceptive?"

I dunno. The study was from S. Henshaw, Fam. Plan. Perspect. Vol. 28, No. 4, July/Aug. 1996. I got that from http://www.abortionfacts.com. I don't know their slant, but I'm sure they have one...

8/8/2005 2:19:19 AM

Quote :

"so if you have sex a hundred times you'll probably get the kid? I rather doubt that"

I rather doubt the validity of your mathematics. If, let's assume, the pill is 99.9% effective per encounter, the probability that you would get pregnant after 100 times is 1-.999^100, roughly equal to a 9.5% chance.

I haven't done any research on this myself, but I have never read whether what the given percentage actually means. It could be, like the example I gave, the probability for each time a woman had otherwise unprotected sex--I don't think that's it, mainly cuz if it is that would suck. Maybe it's the percentage of women the treatment is effective in, i.e. it is ~100% effective in 99.9% of women. It could be the efficacy over the course of a woman's lifetime. Who the fuck knows. I bet google does. But who the fuck else?

The moral of the story? Wrap it up! Keep it safe!! Or date women who are sterile.

8/8/2005 2:19:32 AM

As far as what GrumpyGOP is saying, I don't get it. Doesn't the government strive to provide equal rights for folks of all races, ethnicities, genders, religions, etc...? Isn't that kinda like a law or something? I don't know what AIDS, Africa, hemophilia, etc...have to do with anything.

8/8/2005 2:20:50 AM

I suppose it had previously occured to some of you that a person who espouses certain political views more often than others is not necessarily a slave to someone else's party or ideology?

My family's politics are almost completely different from my own. My high school was the Berkley of NC public high schools, so it's not like they applied some "conservative force" to me. I've disagreed with the Republican party on a range of issues, and as a general rule I despise the wealthy and the things they stand for. Where exactly am I being hobbled?

Everything I say here comes from me, period. It is not a collection of regurgitated ideas fed me by someone else.

8/8/2005 2:20:55 AM

Quote :

"99.9%"

he said 99.0%, boss

of course my math is wrong for 99.9%

8/8/2005 2:24:59 AM

Quote :

"not having abortions causes more abortions if someone doesnt have an abortion, the kids get raised in a shit home, they end up getting pregant at 17..it will never end if abortions arent common place"

this is why i have shifted my views to being pro-choice. In a utopian society, people wouldn't need to get abortions. But living in the real world, you see that the people who get them are the people who aren't going to raise the kids if they are forced to have them. The rich people will be able to pay $texas for illegal abortions, you will have your crack parents having kids and leaving them in dumpsters, and then you will have the kids who are raised into a life of poverty and crime. Also, outlawing abortion will lead to higher crime rates.

It seems to me that outlawing abortions seems to not only put the child in a bad situation, but it also can have detrimental effects on society. Tell me where I'm going wrong.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:27 AM. Reason : .]

8/8/2005 2:26:01 AM

Quote :

"Doesn't the government strive to provide equal rights for folks of all races, ethnicities, genders, religions, etc...? Isn't that kinda like a law or something? I don't know what AIDS, Africa, hemophilia, etc...have to do with anything."

You're saying that the government strives to provide equality for everybody, including, apparently, those who are born unequal (like men and women).

Even though the differences between men and women are natural and not the product of some government conspiracy to hold one group down or build another one up, and are in fact completely independent of any work of humanity itself, you want the government to level that playing field. Now unless you just want to be self-serving and ignorant, you then have to say that it is the government's job to make everyone equal in every respect.

The only way your argument gets to be logically consistent is if it allows for making everyone on earth (or at least in the US) equal. That means nobody gets to use their limbs any more, because we have to level the playing field for the quadrapalegics. Nobody gets to not have AIDS, because we have to level the playing field with babies who are born with that disease.

The alternative is that we accept that some people are just different from others, and that those differences are often unfair.

8/8/2005 2:27:25 AM

Hormonal implants, injections (Depo-Provera), and the hormonal and copper IUDs are very highly effective methods of birth control—97% to 99.9% effective. That means fewer than 1 to 3 out of 100 women using these methods will become pregnant during the first year of use.

8/8/2005 2:27:51 AM

Quote :

"Look, in the span of two sentences you said, "This is only about equality between men and women," and "equality between sexes, races, religions, etc is important.""

GO BACK AND REREAD WHAT I SAID.

Equal rights for folks of different genders, races, religions, etc...are supposedly protected by the American government. Are you following me here???

You asked why I didn't want to level the playing field between men with girlfriends and men without girlfriends. It's simple: the government didn't include that situation when they spoke of races, religions, genders, sexes, etc...

WHY YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THIS AND APPARENTLY STILL DON'T IS BEYOND ME.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:33 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 2:31:29 AM

Quote :

"if someone doesnt have an abortion, the kids get raised in a shit home, they end up getting pregant at 17..it will never end if abortions arent common place"

Quote :

"It seems to me that outlawing abortions seems to not only put the child in a bad situation, but it also can have detrimental effects on society. Tell me where I'm going wrong."

I can't stand these arguments that abortion should be legal because if it weren't then so many kids would grow up in "shit homes" and "bad situations"! Who the fuck are you to decide what is a shit home and what isn't? Who are you to decide for a person what is an acceptable upbringing and what isn't? This is such an egomaniacal, elitist attitude!

Are you really that full of yourself to you think that you can decide for someone whether they should be allowed to live based solely on how they will grow up?

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:34 AM. Reason : Moo]

8/8/2005 2:33:58 AM

btw, Western Europe has a much lower abortion rate than we have here in the states

and many countries in which abortion is illegal have very high rates

make of that what you will

8/8/2005 2:35:48 AM

^^but see, they always use the "who are you" line when you tell them they should use protection or not have sex if they are not willing to take care of the consequences. Already in this thread some fuckschtick already told me "who the fuck are you to tell me when I can have sex"

People are thick skulled and boneheaded when it comes to this topic...on both sides.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:36 AM. Reason : afaf]

8/8/2005 2:36:28 AM

In Soviet Russia, fetus aborts you!

8/8/2005 2:36:37 AM

Except it wasn't "the government" that listed strictly "races, religions, genders, sexes." It was you, who, last time I checked, lacked legal authority.

Of course, you didn't list them strictly, either. You added that "etc." That can be interpreted pretty broadly, as can the often-used legal phrase, "creeds."

And, of course yet again, it isn't the government's job to make everyone equal, either. It's to not make anyone unequal. Nowhere in the Constitution does it imply for a second anything to the contrary.

Even if everything you've said here were completely accurate and noncontradictory, you'd still lose, because none of this would justify killing people off, and you've said nothing to disclaim that fetuses are people.

But I guess you're right, and the government should start programs to level the playing field between men and women. All bathrooms should be unisex, and urinals should be abolished. Men should be forced to pee sitting down and wipe afterwards. Women should be drugged to make them more horny, more often, to match with men's libido. Breasts are uncomfortable, and everyone has the right to be as comfortable as everyone else, right? So I guess men will need to start lining up for implants, or women should all line up to have mammaries taken out. Oooh, that reminds me, breastfeeding could be a tricky one.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:42 AM. Reason : ]

8/8/2005 2:37:17 AM

there are entirely too many preemtive contraceptive options out there to tell me that abortions are necessary

dont have the money? go to the local health department, they give out birth control for free

8/8/2005 2:40:29 AM

yeah, condon + pill should give rather good odds

8/8/2005 2:41:33 AM

Quote :

"I can't stand these arguments that abortion should be legal because if it weren't then so many kids would grow up in "shit homes" and "bad situations"! Who the fuck are you to decide what is a shit home and what isn't? Who are you to decide for a person what is an acceptable upbringing and what isn't? This is such an egomaniacal, elitist attitude! Are you really that full of yourself to you think that you can decide for someone whether they should be allowed to live based solely on how they will grow up? Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting."

how am i qualified to decide what homes are shit homes? well ive seen both. thats how im qualified.

if you arent born yet -- i cant decide if youre going to live.

lets face it...the aborted child of 17 year old mom would thank her for letting him/her being born when she was ready at 30

dont you agree?

8/8/2005 2:42:19 AM

Sometimes you need an abortion to beat the spread.


So to speak.

8/8/2005 2:42:31 AM

Wait, I forgot races! I burn a lot easier than black guys do. White people need to be made black.

8/8/2005 2:43:02 AM

that would be nice

8/8/2005 2:44:13 AM

blah

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:46 AM. Reason : 0]

8/8/2005 2:45:44 AM

ahahahha

8/8/2005 2:46:25 AM

GrumpyGOP, by removing my right to an abortion, the government would be making me unequal to you.

BTW, boys, I've been abused tonight. I'm a sack of confusion over here now. GrumpyGOP wins? I think so. What seems absolutely evident to me doesn't seem that way to anyone else. I'm concerned.

[Edited on August 8, 2005 at 2:52 AM. Reason : sss]

8/8/2005 2:49:50 AM

I'm on your side, but that is a legally unsound stance.

8/8/2005 2:51:24 AM

^Help me put it into words that he won't tear up with his "debate skills." I have none of those.

8/8/2005 2:52:31 AM