Quote :

"everything about that quote just reads of a failure to the conservative agenda the GOP is supposed to have"

nothing about that quote reads of a failure to the conservative agenda of the GOP...the true conservative agenda won out...the conservative agenda that the GOP is supposed to have completed succeeded by voting down this bill

if anything it shows that the conservative agenda still has a strong voice, regardless of how much Bush wants to go against it

6/28/2007 12:27:02 PM

You aren't understanding what I am saying and worse still you are purposefully trying to misrepresent what I am saying so you don't look the fool.

This is the part where you tell me I didn't post clearly what I meant. I'll just stop here before it gets annoying, but I'd be interested to see if my comments have mislead any other posters as to what I was saying, or if you are the only retard in the bunch.

6/28/2007 12:38:34 PM

I read it more that bush isnt a true conservative, or the other ones that voted for it.

6/28/2007 12:40:45 PM

So then how does Bush's failure = a failure of the conservative agenda of the party? It doesn't

6/28/2007 12:50:56 PM

That isn't what I said.

6/28/2007 1:02:02 PM

I don't want to sit on this issue for another two years. They have brought it to the limelight so they should do the job we elected and are paying them to do. They need to enforce the border and get tough with employers. Then deport as many as possible when they are caught. If they have no work then it shouldn't take long before they leave themselves. We need to fix the problem now.

6/28/2007 1:14:21 PM

^i agree. and fix the anchor baby problem. your kid stays, and you go.. or you take him with you when you go.

6/28/2007 1:52:51 PM

7/4/2007 12:02:25 PM

I would be very curious to see how big of a problem this "anchor baby" thing is.

As in, you know, numbers, not rhetoric.

7/5/2007 12:21:04 AM

^ Regardless, it seems ridiculous to me to support the deportation mostly of people who are Americans, regardless of their parents.

Those kids speak english, likely have American friends, adopt American ideals, and practice American holidays.

7/5/2007 12:27:44 AM

No, you dont deport the americans. You simply fix the anchor baby rule. Allow the kid to stay and be placed, parents deported... or deport them both. It wont take long before it stops.

I know the dems want MORE of the families to be able to come over... of course building thier electorate. Good ole harry reid.

7/5/2007 10:10:12 AM

This is so lame.


We're getting a steady supply of the most ambitious and hard-working segment of a county's population,

and you guys are arguing about how best to kick them out.


We all but stopped enforcing an already dumb law, and (oh noes!) they broke it. Damn them!

7/5/2007 10:24:02 AM

sympathy! feelings! emotions!

7/5/2007 10:25:40 AM

Reason! Rationality! Not-Xenophobia!

7/5/2007 10:26:29 AM

you must have picked up some of those snappy comebacks from your students

ps: reason and rationality make more sense than feelings and emotions

nice self-pwnt

7/5/2007 10:28:17 AM

Your mom, actually

7/5/2007 10:29:08 AM

its no wonder you're such an ignorant idiot

7/5/2007 10:29:31 AM

Nice self-pwnt on not understanding that I was describing myself, not you.

See, xenophobia is also a bad thing.

"Hey, three good things, he must be insulting me by giving me three compliments!"

[Edited on July 5, 2007 at 10:34 AM. Reason : .]

7/5/2007 10:33:01 AM

go make some more rash decisions based simply on your feelings about "good, hard working folks"

Where exactly is your reason and rationality? You're still trying to play the sympathy card...hooray for legislation and politics based on emotion and feelings

7/5/2007 10:33:57 AM

nobody is saying they cant come here, but we have laws. They should not be rewarded for breaking those laws. Giving them amnesty, or whatever they want to rephrase it as, slaps legal immigrants who want to be a part of this country squarely in the face.

7/5/2007 11:23:30 AM

I really hope in 10 years mexicans are bitching because all their jobs are being outsourced to china for cheap labor

7/5/2007 1:30:15 PM

I have a really hard time believing that this is purely an issue of abiding by the law.

7/5/2007 1:56:31 PM

you are right it isnt. Its about straining our systems, not knowing who is in our country or where they are. Its also about not paying taxes( business are at fault here too), as WELL as not obeying the law. If you had a real interest in becoming a citzen, you would pretty much meet all of these if done so legally.

Our system is too to blame. Part of the reason for the invasion is we need the workers. Why? Because we pay unskilled workers in this country to do nothing but reproduce. Should be interesting once some idiot makes them all legal, and they catch on to riding the system. THen we will hear the same ole "we cant find workers" BS. Just make welfare half of min wage, and stop paying for additional children. I imagine we would find a whole new workforce overnight.

7/5/2007 2:15:55 PM

^That doesn't change the senselessness of railing against "anchor babies."

And your view of people on welfare doesn't seem to mesh with reality (which is surprising considering how many times this topic has come up).

7/5/2007 3:00:25 PM

Ok moron. Fixing the anchor baby takes away an incentive to break the law and rewards their family not only to stay in this country, but access to social services.

And my views dont mess with reality? Do we not pay for people to have kids? Infact, if you have enough, we often encourage you to stop working and take the system. Do we not have a population that get paid to do nothing? Im not sure which reality you are speaking of or know, but it might be drug induced.

7/5/2007 3:11:16 PM

Quote :

"Allow the kid to stay and be placed, parents deported... or deport them both."

So now, let me get this straight: you'd rather have a bunch of kids placed under the care of child services (which has such a stellar track record of producing functional members of society) than raised by their otherwise normal families?

Oh, but I forgot, those families "broke the law," which will be exactly the same line of reasoning I use when I place under the care of the state every child whose parents have committed tax evasion, smoked pot, or give a beer to their twenty year old.

Quote :

"I know the dems want MORE of the families to be able to come over... of course building thier electorate."

Jesus Christ, we've covered this already. Take away all of these groups, and you have a very tiny shift in the electorate, almost entirely impotent except for a few predominantly Hispanic districts that already vote one way anyway:

-The large number of illegals who want residency, not citizenship
-The large number of the remainder who would be roughly as apathetic about voting as the rest of us
-The third of the Hispanic population that generally votes Republican

Quote :

"ps: reason and rationality make more sense than feelings and emotions"

Dude

He knows that

He was saying that you aren't using these things.

You have proven far more consistent in exploiting emotional response than most people on my side.

Quote :

"Where exactly is your reason and rationality?"

Well, I'm not a big fan of the "hard working" argument myself, but I fail to see how desiring industrious workers is irrational.

Quote :

"Giving them amnesty, or whatever they want to rephrase it as, slaps legal immigrants who want to be a part of this country squarely in the face. "

This argument is barely coherent, let alone rational. It is not as though citizenship is worth less by virtue of us granting it to more people. It isn't an exclusive good. And the people who got here legally still got the better end of the deal, as utlimately they had a much easier time of it. Paperwork is a pain in the ass, but if I have the option, I'll probably take it over crossing a desert and river in the middle of the night or riding in the back of a u-haul with 40 other people.

Of course, the overwhelming majority of would-be immigrants, particularly from Mexico and points south, don't have the option.

Your argument is also, I might add, a classic example of using the emotion, feelings, and sympathy that your allies are so fond of maligning.

Quote :

"Its about straining our systems, not knowing who is in our country or where they are. Its also about not paying taxes( business are at fault here too), as WELL as not obeying the law."

1) Our systems are not strained. As I have demonstrated at length, immigrants pay more into the system than they take out.
2) We'd know who the hell was here if we'd let them check in on their way across the border, which strikes me as a hell of a lot easier than trying to kick out a bunch of people whose identities and locations we don't know.
3) They pay some taxes, and would pay the rest if they could do so without you trying to deport them immediately as a result.
4) The law is unjust, stupid, xenophobic, unamerican, and contrary to the basic principles of free trade and liberal democracy.

Quote :

"Part of the reason for the invasion is we need the workers."

This is an overstated part, but a part nonetheless.

Where you lose grip with reality is this claim that we would fix the problem by gutting welfare and child services. Of course we have a large number of people who would be willing to work these jobs -- at a certain price. This price, as it happens, is well above what the employers are generally willing to pay. Immigrants, however, are willing to work at what the employers offer.

Reduce welfare and force American citizens to take work at the wage offered, and even more of them than do currently will probably turn towards an easier, more profitable career -- one in crime. I know there's plenty of crime among welfare recipients already, but no reason to make thigns worse.*

Alternatively, you could force employers to raise their wages to levels acceptable to Americans, which artificially inflates the price of goods for everybody and puts people out of jobs.

* -- I'm not suggesting that maintaining the welfare status quo is a good idea in general, so don't try to accuse me of it. I also have no intention of getting into a detailed discussion about it here, so if that's what you want, we'll start a new thread.

Quote :

"Fixing the anchor baby takes away an incentive to break the law and rewards their family not only to stay in this country, but access to social services."

The only social service that having a kid in this country gives you automatic access to is primary and secondary education, which immigrants -- illegals and otherwise -- are already more than paying for.

As to the "incentive to break the law," I've yet to see you produce any numbers demonstrating the seriousness of the problem. How many illegals are getting to stay here as a result of anchor babies?

I'm sure there are some, but almost certainly not enough to warrant this ranting you've been doing, and certainly not enough to warrant taking action on this before any of the other eleventy things wrong with immigration policy.

7/6/2007 4:51:28 PM

There are massive incentives to have an ‘anchor’ baby. If you think illegal immigrants don’t cross the border for the sole purpose of having a child here you are crazy (about 383,000 births in 2002). A child gives them leverage to stay, and all of the benefits provided by legitimate citizens’ taxes. Uncomplicated births cost 5-6k each and c-sections are double that (at least). Complicated births can run much higher than that, all of which is written off by the hospitals. Adding to that is the fact that most illegals use the ED as their PCP (for things like head/stomach ache) which is also written off. Most illegals also repeatedly give different names each time they come to the ED, leading to confusion from multiple charts (I know this is common; my girlfriend worked for Wakemed and I’m in med school). Illegal wreak havoc on the healthcare industry.

Add the cost of healthcare to the billions spent on welfare for the ‘anchor babies’ and the parents, the billions spent on the 300,000 or so illegals in prison (at $22650/yr), the billions spent on schooling for the children, along with many other costs to taxpayers and in the private sector (interpreters, insurance cost, etc), you take a lot of taxpayer money out of the system. All of this money spent on illegal should go to American citizens, and if someone from another country wants these benefits they need to follow the laws and not get rewarded for breaking them.

[Edited on July 6, 2007 at 8:33 PM. Reason : s]

7/6/2007 8:32:50 PM

Your admirable last name and appreciation for Pabst are encouraging me to be more civil than I would normally be in this mood. You also managed to produce some actual numbers, which puts you stratospherically above some of your pals in here.

Quote :

"If you think illegal immigrants don’t cross the border for the sole purpose of having a child here you are crazy (about 383,000 births in 2002). "

I never said that illegals categorically don't do as you say, I merely meant to suggest that the number that do so is small enough to put it near the bottom of the list of things wrong with immigration policy.

Also, the 383,000 figure does in fact demonstrate that illegals have babies here, but that in and of itself does not demonstrate that they did so for any reason other than the normal ones that cause people to have babies (although, again, I'm sure getting a foothold in the states was on the minds of some of them). God only knows people don't always consider all the consequences of having sex or babies, including the positive ones.

Illegal immigrants are not the likeliest bunch in the world to use adequate protection or have abortions. Meaning, in short, that you and I both know that at least a portion of those babies were unwanted and unplanned, which in turn means that, for all the problems the situation caused, the parent(s) did not come up here intending to get anchored by one.

I think it's also perfectly reasonable to assume that a fair portion of those births came about because people wanted to have babies. It happens, you know. Government benefits are not the only thing that people think about when they decide to have a kid. Now, at some point, maybe those parents realized that they could use their bundle of joy to their advantage, but, again, they didn't come up here intending to do that.

Those two cases alone take a lot of the wind out of the sails of this "massive incentives" business. Of course, neither you nor I know how many of those kids were intended to be anchors, but I think we can both agree that the number is less than the total number of births to illegals.

Quote :

"A child gives them leverage to stay, and all of the benefits provided by legitimate citizens’ taxes."

I won't claim to know this, so I'll ask honestly: Does having a kid entitle an illegal to receive social security, medicare, unemployment, etc.?

Quote :

"Uncomplicated births cost 5-6k each and c-sections are double that (at least). Complicated births can run much higher than that, all of which is written off by the hospitals."

This is true. It would probably be remarkably less costly to the hospitals if they could get health insurance or medicare in this country, which is denied to them pretty much entirely by their "illegal" status.

Quote :

"Adding to that is the fact that most illegals use the ED as their PCP (for things like head/stomach ache) which is also written off. Most illegals also repeatedly give different names each time they come to the ED, leading to confusion from multiple charts"

Both of these are very real problems, created by the perverse incentives we've set up for illegals in this country. They have a real and profound fear that honesty about their identity could lead to deportation, as could any long-term association with a primary care physician. Sometimes these fears are baseless, other times, not. We have created a system in which normal and (otherwise) legal participation in society is something to be feared and avoided.

You know and I know that doctor-patient privilege exists in this country and is consistently upheld. But can you really blame a person who has no prior education of it -- who is provided, at best, minimal current education of it -- who is ineligible for insurance or medicare -- who is, at all times, at risk of being removed from their livelihood and thrown into a situation which they took great pains to escape -- can you really blame them for acting like they do in this regard?

It isn't an appeal to your emotion, but to your ability to understand the situation from both sides. You can't win any fight without at least a little understanding of how the other side works, and that's true here. We have been very successful at making them afraid, if nothing else. The quickest and most effective way to fix their impact on hospitals and American healthcare in general isn't to waste billions trying to keep and kick them out, when doing so is wrong and they will find away around it besides. And I hope you agree with me as a student of medicine that it's not simply to deny them medical care, either, for reasons pertaining to basic human morality and public health besides. It's to give them access to the same tools everyone else has.

Quote :

"Add the cost of healthcare to the billions spent on welfare for the ‘anchor babies’ and the parents, the billions spent on the 300,000 or so illegals in prison (at $22650/yr), the billions spent on schooling for the children, along with many other costs to taxpayers and in the private sector (interpreters, insurance cost, etc)"

I'll accept your numbers for prisons, but not those on welfare. We have no idea how many of those families are on it, and I for my part am not even sure that they are eligible. And while we do spend money on their kids in schools, private businesses get interpreters because they stand to make money off of immigrants -- they aren't going into the red paying someone to sell to a new demo. As for insurance...well, maybe if you'd let them get insurance of various kinds, they wouldn't be such a burden.

As to this....

Quote :

"you take a lot of taxpayer money out of the system. All of this money spent on illegal should go to American citizens"

As a whole illegals contribute more in taxes and revenue than they take out. This issue was discussed at length on page 6.

7/7/2007 1:28:27 AM

Ok GOP, Ill bite. I dont know how to do the block qoute thing so Ill do my best.

GrumpyGOP
"So now, let me get this straight: you'd rather have a bunch of kids placed under the care of child services (which has such a stellar track record of producing functional members of society) than raised by their otherwise normal families?"

No, this would not be ideal. However its thier parents making that choice, and fear of being seperated from thier children will make them reconsider thier anchor baby approach. If we stick to this, it will make a difference.


GrumpyGOP
"This argument is barely coherent, let alone rational. It is not as though citizenship is worth less by virtue of us granting it to more people."

It seems we have a fundamentaly different way of thinking. I feel their shouldnt be a reward for breaking the law and spits in the face of people who followed the law, jumped through the hoops and sacrificed to become legal US citizens a process that takes years and year and cost alot of money. Let me know the next time you are in the grocery store, so I can jump in front of you...then leave you the tab. What? I need the food just as much as you do. LOL

GrumpyGOP
"1) Our systems are not strained. As I have demonstrated at length, immigrants pay more into the system than they take out."

This could be the most misinformed statement Ive heard on here, which is saying something. The "our system is not strained" is laughable. Have you been to a hospital, or seen the rapid expansion of schools? Heard of the federal debt? We also have the largest population getting ready to retire and take the system...not strained..you bet. And it is accepted that illegals do produced a net gain of 7 billion dollars into our social security yearly. THe problem is that they tend to drain over 28 billion. Which is all based on the 2002 census.. Im sure its alot worse now.

Here are some links, which Im sure you wont accept.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42474
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/06/white_house_spin_masks_the_rea.html

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1490.cfm
^ with this qoute"Lamar Smith (R-TX), Ranking Member of the House Judiciary Committee. "We need to make sure any legislation does not further strain government services and taxpayers'"

This one deals just with NC
http://www.jwpcivitasinstitute.org/keylinks/PolicyBrief/MedicaidIllegals.pdf


Next topic

GrumpyGOP
"Alternatively, you could force employers to raise their wages to levels acceptable to Americans, which artificially inflates the price of goods for everybody and puts people out of jobs."

But Im sure you support a rise in min wage. haha. Anyway, I dont see a problem with helping people who are trying to do the right things, make good decisions and contribute. Instead of encouraging them to not work bc then they receive more benefits. If you dont see that we have created a hammock instead of a safety net, then I cant help ya. I do think germany has it right, and i find it funny what they now force some to do. I bet this motivates them to find a job.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml
Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job.


GrumpyGOP
"The only social service that having a kid in this country gives you automatic access to is primary and secondary education, which immigrants -- illegals and otherwise -- are already more than paying for."

Wow, another misinformed statement, but not as bad as the previous. Once the child is born, the child is immediately eligible for social services, food stamps, and other forms of aid. Also when they reach adult hood(well 21 actually) they can petition for their family to join them( however, we dont kick out the family now), and they immediately become eligible for all social services. Do you realize if you had a child in mexico, that they dont allow it to automatically be a mexican citizen? I just find that interesting.

[Edited on July 7, 2007 at 10:19 AM. Reason : posted the same link twice.]

7/7/2007 10:05:25 AM

Doing the block quotes is pretty easy. Look at my post and click "edit post" next to it, then just do what I've done.

Quote :

"However its thier parents making that choice, and fear of being seperated from thier children will make them reconsider thier anchor baby approach. If we stick to this, it will make a difference. "

What difference? How much god damned difference? You haven't provided any figure to tell us how many people are using the "anchor baby" approach. I went to great pains to demonstrate that not every illegal who has a kid up here does so with the intent to anchor themselves, and anyone who doesn't will not be affected by these measures you want to put in place.

I'm sure some number of people might decide, as a result of your plan, that having a baby here isn't going to keep them here. How many of those people will, as a result, give up on their efforts to try to get here or stay here by staying completely under the radar? Ultimately, will this number be worth the Constitutional debate over what constitutes native-born citizenship? Will it be worth the political capital? The children of immigrants who are forced into state custody as a result?

Not in a million years.

Quote :

"I feel their shouldnt be a reward for breaking the law and spits in the face of people who followed the law"

This is the part that's incoherent. How does an illegal entering the country cheapen the citizenship of someone else? Are the legal immigrants any less able to vote and use social services?

Quote :

"jumped through the hoops and sacrificed to become legal US citizens a process that takes years and year and cost alot of money."

Jumped through hoops? Look, as I said, the process of entering the country legally is an enormous pain, and that's ridiculous. That's the thing that is spitting in the face of immigrants of all kinds -- the way we treat them as they're trying to get in.

But filling out paperwork is one kind of hoop. Crossing the Rio Grande or an expanse of Arizona desert in the middle of the night with little food and water with a reasonable chance that all your efforts will be for naught is a different kind. Paying a coyote exorbinant fees to load you into the back of a truck with forty other people to smuggle you across is a different kind as well. Living a day-to-day existence where secrecy must be maintained constantly to avoid deportation is a hoop. All immigrants have to jump through hoops.

Quote :

"Have you been to a hospital, or seen the rapid expansion of schools? Heard of the federal debt? We also have the largest population getting ready to retire and take the system...not strained..you bet."

Yes, all of these things are strained in various ways, very few of which have to do with immigrants, legal or otherwise. Or are all of the AARP folks you mentioned who are about to go on Social Security wetbacks? Hospitals and schools are overcrowded and inefficient, sure, but it's not for want of money or abundance of immigrants, it's for want of competent management.

Quote :

"And it is accepted that illegals do produced a net gain of 7 billion dollars into our social security yearly. THe problem is that they tend to drain over 28 billion."

Illegal immigrants drain zero dollars from social security. By definition they cannot draw off of any of its benefits. Look, I covered the money thing at length on the previous page, take a look at that to inform your response.

Quote :

"Which is all based on the 2002 census.. Im sure its alot worse now."

Censuses take place every ten years. The last one was in 2000. You've just cited a census that doesn't exist.

---

As to your sources...we need to have a talk about bias and reliability. I presented numbers from academic journals and articles. You presented, in your first piece, a tract from . . . well, from WorldNetDaily, which portrays the immigration issue in such unbiased lights as "Invasion USA," its heading for immigration stories. My articles cited numerous reports and studies. The WorldNet piece cited one, from the hillariously-named "FAIR," which has a very specific and declared agenda. You might as well show me an article describing a NAMBLA research paper on how boys who get raped by men grow up to be well-adjusted.

With the RealClearPolitics link, you accidentally showed me something that made an excellent point for your side -- the only one, really, you have any business making as far as the economic impact of immigrants. I'm not going to tell you what it is; I'll wait and see if you figure it out.

Sadly, what I think you intended it to show me was that illegals are currently costing more in benefits than they pay in taxes. It says no such thing. It says that low-income, low-skill families that are eligible for benefits receive more than they pay in, which is true. Illegals don't get welfare.

The Heritage piece made many excellent points, none of which indicate that illegals are costing us more than they're paying. I would be happy to discuss it at greater length if you want.

Quote :

"I do think germany has it right, and i find it funny what they now force some to do."

If there's two things that are always going to make me nervous, it's when someone says "Germany has it right" and "it's funny what the Germans force people to do." But maybe I'm old-fashioned.

You still never addressed my main point, which was that cutting the benefits will put some into jobs and others into easier, higher paying jobs, like selling drugs. All I'm going to do is repeat this point and my addendum that I also think welfare systems are currently FUBAR and need fixing, but since that isn't the point of this thread I won't discuss it here.

Quote :

"Once the child is born, the child is immediately eligible for social services, food stamps, and other forms of aid."

The child is eligible for all these things, not the illegal parents, as I understand what you have put forward here. That's totally in keeping with what I said.

Quote :

"Also when they reach adult hood(well 21 actually) they can petition for their family to join them( however, we dont kick out the family now), and they immediately become eligible for all social services."

So you mean to tell me that there are large numbers of illegal immigrants who are saying, "All I have to do is cross the border, have a kid, and then lay low for two decades, and then I can stay forever? Well hot damn, sign me up!"

[Edited on July 7, 2007 at 4:23 PM. Reason : ]

7/7/2007 4:22:38 PM

Quote :

"If you think illegal immigrants don’t cross the border for the sole purpose of having a child here you are crazy (about 383,000 births in 2002). "

That birth rate you quoted is a very crude estimate for the births of ALL estimated illegal immigrants supposedly in the US. That doesn't speak to the rate of "anchor babies" at all. It doesn't show how many babies are being born for the sole, or even a primary, purpose of being used as an anchor. You can't count the normal birth rate as anchor babies, because people are going to have babies regardless of where they are.

I'm sure the illegals that come here are happy to have their kids as American citizens (this makes the most sense for their kids after all, since most of they grow up to be just like every other American) though.

Quote :

"Add the cost of healthcare to the billions spent on welfare for the ‘anchor babies’ and the parents, the billions spent on the 300,000 or so illegals in prison (at $22650/yr), the billions spent on schooling for the children, along with many other costs to taxpayers and in the private sector (interpreters, insurance cost, etc), you take a lot of taxpayer money out of the system. All of this money spent on illegal should go to American citizens, and if someone from another country wants these benefits they need to follow the laws and not get rewarded for breaking them."

This is all true, but it doesn't paint the full picture.

The first thing you have to look at is the cost of implementing your solution to the illegal immigrant problem. With the spending you outline above, those costs don't apply evenly to even most illegal immigrants. If you support plans to start tracking down and deporting all the illegals, you're looking at an expenditure significantly above to totals of what you noted, that would decrease over time, but never be eliminated.

Secondly, illegal immigrants have other positive economic effects that aren't noted, particularly in the area of keeping the cost of certain other goods and services lower for everyone else. Also, an illegal immigrant in a typical illegal immigrant income range is going to still be paying up to about 60% of their total tax liability if they were here legally. This also doesn't account for the money they are putting in to social security that helps Americans, but not themselves.

Combine those 2 parts, and your solution is a pretty terrible solution. You're looking at a definite short term increase in spending on illegals, with a long term expenditure that likely will be about the same overall, or just slightly less.

If your main problem with illegals is that we don't have enough money to support them, then spending more money doesn't seem like a good answer. Finding some way to make them easier to track and pay taxes would be a better option, that doesn't involve the extreme costs of finding, processing, and transporting 12-20 million people.

[Edited on July 7, 2007 at 6:38 PM. Reason : http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23521/pub_detail.asp]

7/7/2007 6:35:47 PM

What is so hard for you to understand about the cutting in line. It spits in the face of people following the rules and creates resentment for those that actually followed them. I even gave you the example of cutting in line infront of you at the grocery store.

In order to legally become a us citizen, it takes a little more than filling out paperwork. They have to attend classes, pay fees, etc.

In order to become a U.S. citizen, you must

(1) have been admitted to lawful permanent residence for five years (three years if Green Card obtained through marriage to U.S. citizen);

(2) you must be 18 years old;

(3) you must be maintain continuous residence for five years (three years if Green Card obtained through marriage to U.S. citizen);

(4) you must be physically present in the U.S. for at least half of the 5 years (or half of the 3 years if you obtained a Green Card through a U.S. citizen spouse);

(5) you must be a person of good moral character for the 5 years (or 3 years if the alien obtained a Green Card through a U.S. citizen spouse);

(6) you must demonstrate an elementary level of English (reading, writing, understanding); and,

(7) you must have knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals of history and government of the U.S.



Great, so you finally admited that our system is strained. Its a start. Now ill simplify it for you. Lets say you have a bridge with a capacity of 1000lbs. And its already holding 1500lbs, now we are thinking of adding another 500 lbs. See the problem?
You dont think illegals are helping to strain the system?

I like how you try to play on words with the social security. Yes they put in 7billion a year in which they cant draw out. However, they consume 28 billion of other social services. social services doesnt mean social security. got it?


Cutting welfare benefits=life of crime? come on

hahah, so now you are right that the anchor baby is eligible for services not the parents? haha. So, you think the govt sends food stamps and checks to the 9 week old? Or do you think they deposit it directly into his 401k. haha. No matter whose name is on the check, they now receive income from simply having a baby in the US. Now, if they have a couple more, we pay them more. They, oh, excuse me..the baby... is now eligible for public housing too. Sure, lay low, collect your govt checks, work under the table, collect those benefits for 18 yrs so you dont have far to wait until you can get YOUR name on those checks. OR if you have a couple children, you dont lose your stream of money. THis needs to be fixed.

If you care to learn, you should look at what all we provide some people. What medicaid alone covers will make you sick. Its simply upside down. They have better drug coverage than most americans who pay for insurance and medicine copays.

Good discusion though.

7/8/2007 12:30:50 PM

Quote :

"I even gave you the example of cutting in line infront of you at the grocery store."

This "example" had nothing to do with immigration. If I cut in front of you in line at the grocery store, I have delayed your getting to checkout. INS doesn't say, "Sorry, Mr. Chang, your papers are all in order but a wetback crossed the border last night so we can't let you in."

Quote :

"In order to legally become a us citizen, it takes a little more than filling out paperwork. They have to attend classes, pay fees, etc."

Jesus Christ, way to miss the fucking point. Getting into the country legall involves jumping through hoops, yes. So does getting into the country illegally. One of these sets of hoops is far more likely to result in an untimely death in the middle of the desert.

Quote :

"You dont think illegals are helping to strain the system?"

In most cases, the problem is negligible. My original point was exclusively as far as straining things monetarily -- by paying more than they take out, they are not straining the budget of public services they use.

So yeah, they strain it, no more than anybody else in the country, and less so than certain groups.

Quote :

"I like how you try to play on words with the social security. Yes they put in 7billion a year in which they cant draw out. However, they consume 28 billion of other social services. social services doesnt mean social security. got it? "

Uh-huh. I'm going to go very slowly through this for you.

You said that the illegals pay seven billion a year to social security.

Social Security is not the only thing that they pay into, though it is something they pay for that they can never get.

They also pay sales taxes every time they buy something. They pay various other taxes and fees. Some of them have income taxes witheld -- not every illegal is paid under the table.

You basically said, "They pay less into this one thing than they take out from this other thing." It's akin to an argument like, "Hey, you only paid $100 in State taxes but you got $500 of Federal services!"

As I demonstrated at length on the last page with a variety of academic sources, common consensus among experts is that immigrants pay more overall than they take out.

Quote :

"So, you think the govt sends food stamps and checks to the 9 week old? Or do you think they deposit it directly into his 401k. haha. No matter whose name is on the check, they now receive income from simply having a baby in the US."

Whatever things the child is eligible for that could be used by the parents are very minor in the grand scheme of things. Food stamps are chump change, and it isn't as though the parents can use the kids medicaid or most other, more expensive, programs for themself.

In short, the most expensive entitlement payouts are still not available to the parents.

And I'm very curious as to these "checks" you think are being sent out. Kids aren't eligible to collect welfare, etc. You seem to have a very warped sense of how these programs work. The process is not so simple as, "Well, this person's poor, better send them that check."

And don't try to play this 18 years nonsense on me, by your own word the age is twenty one. That's two decades that the family has to live off the radar almost completely, just to get the chance to petition to stay. It's not like Junior's 21st birthday rolls around and the government just shrugs and says, "Well, your a citizen now. Here's some free money."

Overall, I just think you are overstating how attractive anchor babies are as an option. With the regularity of amnesty laws and adjustments to the system, the average illegal would likely be granted the chance at residency or citizenship through legislation long before their kid was old enough to get it that way.

Quote :

"If you care to learn, you should look at what all we provide some people. What medicaid alone covers will make you sick. Its simply upside down. They have better drug coverage than most americans who pay for insurance and medicine copays."

Listen to me, boy, I didn't sit around with my dick in my hand during my time at NC State. I've done a lot of research and a lot of writing on the subject of American health care and its various flaws. I don't need to be educated on them by some guy whose idea of a good source is FAIR press release.

7/8/2007 4:05:43 PM

- You'd have to be an idiot to think that legal immigrants are more offended by illegal immigrants rather that idiotic immigration laws. The unfairness of illegals getting amnesty pales in comparison to the unfairness of immigration laws.

The only people who don't see this are disingenuous anti-immigrant douchebags who think, beyond all logic and common sense, that legal immigrants support their anti-immigrant cause. It takes a real douchebag to think, "Well, I had to go through this arbitrary, nonsensical, wasteful, and arduous process to get here. Since I am such a spiteful cocksucker, I hope the people who follow me have to do the same!"

This is a fantasy. Most legal immigrants think: "Wow, the process to become legal sucked. I hope it is changed one day to be more sensible."

- You'd also have to be an idiot to think that the feelings of legal immigrants have any special bearing on the issue of admitting illegal immigrants.

[Edited on July 8, 2007 at 5:18 PM. Reason : This argument is so stupid, it shows how desperate you are to support you position.]

7/8/2007 4:50:13 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-9lyDZy39o

7/8/2007 10:50:50 PM

my wife is a nurse, and works with the indigent population at a major regional trauma center, that also has as it's primary mission to provide care to people who don't have insurance or money.

she is fed up with the way people manipulate and abuse the system, and drain the healthcare resources so that people who actually NEED critical care aren't able to get what they need when they need it because of so many people leeching valuable services for petty selfish reasons.

DO YOU KNOW WHO THESE ABUSERS ARE?

legal American Citizens. More often white, but also black and hispanic. but, 99.99% of the time, they are legal US citizens.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

drug seeking. there are a bunch of worthless, unemployed, IV drug users who have long ago given up on their life, and exist solely to get whatever they can out of anyone they can get it from. they have destroyed their bodies, and are constantly in the middle of various IV drug use related illnesses and disease. they come to the hospital to get a bed, a shower and some free drugs. they regularly leave the hospital to smoke crack/meth and come back. they deal drugs and engage in prostitution in their very hospital rooms.

DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY CAN DO THIS?

because our US Healthcare system is BROKEN. 45 million people dont have insurance, but that doesnt mean they wont get treated. County and Regional hospitals' Emergency Rooms become their primary care providers. nobody can be turned away. so the ERs are continuously overflowed with people seeking treatment for conditions that could have been PREVENTED had they had even minimal access. the drug users have learned how to use and manipulate this system to their advantage.

DO YOU KNOW WHO **DOES NOT** DO THIS?

Illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants rarely if ever go to hospitals (or any traditional healthcare) for any reason, due to an overwhelming fear of being arrested and deported. the only illegals my wife sees come through the hospitals are people who are critically ill. in comas. dying. with diseases that have reached the end-of-life stage. diseases that could have been (and are) completely treated or managed when people are able to have a minimal amount of health maintenance or early-intervention

needless to say, maintenance and early intervention is far more cheaper, as it can often be provided in outpatient clinics, at far less cost than in hospital ER's and ICU's.

so, for those of you who still run around squealing about how illegal immigrants get all their shit for nothing, and suck up resources for us "honest americans"

FUCK YOU.

7/9/2007 3:25:42 AM

Quote :

"And I'm very curious as to these "checks" you think are being sent out. Kids aren't eligible to collect welfare, etc. You seem to have a very warped sense of how these programs work. The process is not so simple as, "Well, this person's poor, better send them that check." And don't try to play this 18 years nonsense on me, by your own word the age is twenty one. That's two decades that the family has to live off the radar almost completely, just to get the chance to petition to stay. It's not like Junior's 21st birthday rolls around and the government just shrugs and says, "Well, your a citizen now. Here's some free money." "

The checks they receive are from TANF. TANF divides individuals in the household by income and determine the amount of money you receive. So the more kids you have the more money they send. I believe that if they try to pull the ADD disability thing to get more money, I think it cancels out TANF. Im not 100 percent on that though.

Wordplay? 18 is when alot of social services and medicaid expires for children. THey must reapply as an adult after that point. 21 is the age when they can petition to grant thier parents citizenship. Which if granted, immediately qualifies them for all social services benefits.

Quote :

"Listen to me, boy, I didn't sit around with my dick in my hand during my time at NC State. I've done a lot of research and a lot of writing on the subject of American health care and its various flaws. I don't need to be educated on them by some guy whose idea of a good source is FAIR press release."

Funny. So I take it you dont care to learn. Id love to see your writings on the american health care system. Could be interesting or funny.

Please tell me you arent a teacher.

Quote :

"As I demonstrated at length on the last page with a variety of academic sources, common consensus among experts is that immigrants pay more overall than they take out"

I love your mindset of just repeating false information it will somehow become true. THe world is flat, the world is flat.

7/9/2007 9:52:26 AM

You have the gall to cite WorldNetDaily and the Heritage Foundation to back your argument, yet you so smugly dismiss GrumpyGOP? Jeez

Also, can you tell me what the "T" in TANF stands for?

7/9/2007 10:08:30 AM

It stands for temporary. Which would be great if they stuck to it. So you could use the TANF for the five years, then get your child a disablity to pay for the rest. Either way, its income. Also, I believe its 5 years for the individual, so you can continue to have income as long as you space your kids right.

So, as for an incentive to have an anchor baby, Id say there are plenty.

7/9/2007 10:54:02 AM

So do you have -any- evidence that this is actually happening?

You know, other than WorldNetDaily?

7/9/2007 10:55:24 AM

sure, look at the amount of kids on diability with add. Id say around 80% of my medicaid kids are all on add meds. Why? because the parents get more money.

You guys are amazing. You say that they dont get checks. I show you they get checks. Now whats the problem?

THis is like teaching neuro to 3rd graders.

Here is an article from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons:

Ill paste the highlights, since you wont want to actually read it.

"Anchor babies are valueable. A disabled anchor baby is more
valuable than a healthy one. The two Silverio anchor babies
generate $1,000 per month in public welfare funding."


"What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and
closed some of America?s finest emergency medical facilities, and
caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing
their doors. ?Anchor babies? born to illegal aliens instantly qualify
as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in
Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income
and Disability Income."

"American hospitals welcome ?anchor babies.? Illegal alien
women come to the hospital in labor and drop their little anchors,
each of whom pulls its illegal alien mother, father, and siblings into
permanent residency simply by being born within our borders.
Anchor babies are citizens, and instantly qualify for public welfare
aid. Between 300,000 and 350,000 anchor babies annually
become citizens because of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S.
Constitution: ?All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United
States and the State wherein they reside."?

"In 2003 in Stockton, California, 70 percent of the 2,300 babies
born in San Joaquin General Hospital?s maternity ward were
anchor babies, and 45 percent of Stockton children under age six are
Latino (up from 30 percent in 1993). In 1994, 74,987 anchor
babies in California hospital maternity units cost $215 million and
constituted 36 percent of all Medi-Cal births. Now they account for
substantially more than half."

Here is the link to the article. Of course, just attack the messenger and not actually listen to the message.

http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf

I hope you enjoyed reading that, Boy.

7/9/2007 11:15:48 AM

I had a pretty interesting conversation with a Filipino guy the other day. Most of this isn't exactly related to illegal aliens, but it doesn't deserve it's own thread so I'll stick it here.

He is 63, came here 15+ years ago to Missouri at first. He moved to California for awhile and said he didn't want to go back there...too many Filipino's. Which was odd, but then he pointed out how they were in the streets, lazy, etc. He lived in New Jersey for a few years, went to Dunkin Donuts University and managed stores here for awhile. Then he went back to the Philippines to manage stores there for awhile, but is now back in the US in Cary. He said he likes Cary better than New Jersey because it's warmer here and the cold made him itch all over.

He said something along the lines that if he were to retire now, his social security check would only be $300 a month (a week?), where-as he knows some other Filipinos that are pulling $500 and they never worked here. I couldn't quite get where the discrepancy was, so this info is relatively useless for this thread.

He said his father worked in the post office at the military base in the Philippines for several years, and he lived and spent a lot of time on the base. He noticed that blacks and whites segregated themselves, and he thought the whites were acting superior and thus didn't like the whites. Then, when he was in New Jersey, he noticed that blacks didn't keep their yards clean, they were always on the porch and in the streets, and just generally seemed lazy. This made him understand that forced mixing of cultures sometimes doesn't work, and that people shouldn't be forced to like other people.

He started talking about American car companies, and commended me for driving an American car. He was upset his son bought a Japanese car and was saddened that you can't get anything made in America anymore.

He had a lot of other stuff to say, but his English wasn't perfect so it was hard for me to get it all into my head for typing here.

I apologize that this is mostly unrelated to illegal immigration, but I thought that it was particularly interesting that a Filipino was so pro-American products, and had similar attitudes about lazy blacks as your average (so called) bigot/racist.

7/9/2007 11:29:43 AM

^interesting.

A funny thing though about americans cars, consumer reports did an article on them recently. Its amazing how few americans cars are actually made in the US. They are forced overseas to try to compete. Sad actually. I think there are alot more foreign cars built in the US now, but I dont think alot of them allow unions. Anyway, another discusion.

7/9/2007 11:45:49 AM

Quote :

"my wife is a nurse, and works with the indigent population at a major regional trauma center, that also has as it's primary mission to provide care to people who don't have insurance or money. she is fed up with the way people manipulate and abuse the system, and drain the healthcare resources so that people who actually NEED critical care aren't able to get what they need when they need it because of so many people leeching valuable services for petty selfish reasons. DO YOU KNOW WHO THESE ABUSERS ARE? legal American Citizens. More often white, but also black and hispanic. but, 99.99% of the time, they are legal US citizens. DO YOU KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING? drug seeking. there are a bunch of worthless, unemployed, IV drug users who have long ago given up on their life, and exist solely to get whatever they can out of anyone they can get it from. they have destroyed their bodies, and are constantly in the middle of various IV drug use related illnesses and disease. they come to the hospital to get a bed, a shower and some free drugs. they regularly leave the hospital to smoke crack/meth and come back. they deal drugs and engage in prostitution in their very hospital rooms. DO YOU KNOW WHY THEY CAN DO THIS? because our US Healthcare system is BROKEN. 45 million people dont have insurance, but that doesnt mean they wont get treated. County and Regional hospitals' Emergency Rooms become their primary care providers. nobody can be turned away. so the ERs are continuously overflowed with people seeking treatment for conditions that could have been PREVENTED had they had even minimal access. the drug users have learned how to use and manipulate this system to their advantage. DO YOU KNOW WHO **DOES NOT** DO THIS? Illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants rarely if ever go to hospitals (or any traditional healthcare) for any reason, due to an overwhelming fear of being arrested and deported. the only illegals my wife sees come through the hospitals are people who are critically ill. in comas. dying. with diseases that have reached the end-of-life stage. diseases that could have been (and are) completely treated or managed when people are able to have a minimal amount of health maintenance or early-intervention needless to say, maintenance and early intervention is far more cheaper, as it can often be provided in outpatient clinics, at far less cost than in hospital ER's and ICU's. so, for those of you who still run around squealing about how illegal immigrants get all their shit for nothing, and suck up resources for us "honest americans" FUCK YOU."

was this from an email

because it read exactly like some shit that get forwarded to everyone

7/9/2007 11:46:53 AM

^x4 That lady is hilarious.

We need to close the borders to prevent a medical catastrophe caused by all the diseases immigrants bring over?


But alright, anchor babies are apparently being used to exploit immigration laws. We already knew immigration laws were retarded, though.

You've yet to explain

1) how these immigrants are too great a strain on our system (not just "a strain," but "too great a strain."
2) how this is different from the turn of the 20th century, when a proportionately higher number of immigrants came to America
3) how these immigrants have a negative net impact on the US

Your justifications keep shifting...

Straining our system, then law and order, then exploitation of laws... are you sure there's nothing else?

[Edited on July 9, 2007 at 11:51 AM. Reason : .]

7/9/2007 11:51:16 AM

Quote :

"1) how these immigrants are too great a strain on our system (not just "a strain," but "too great a strain." "

Wow. Simply amazing.

Clearly trying to educate you is an exercise in futility.

Have a good day sir.

7/9/2007 12:22:30 PM

So answering a question directly is that difficult for you?

7/9/2007 1:14:17 PM

Quote :

"What is so hard for you to understand about the cutting in line. It spits in the face of people following the rules and creates resentment for those that actually followed them. I even gave you the example of cutting in line infront of you at the grocery store."

Can you prove this? I would bet the vast majority of immigrants don't feel "resentment" at the illegal immigrants. I bet if you took a poll, other immigrants would still feel that US immigration laws need to be more open still.

As a legal immigrant myself, I know I personally don't feel any resentment towards hispanics, and no one in my extended family that I know does either. However, we all mostly feel that it's racism that causes Americans to hate hispanics (my family is not hispanic, FYI). The resentment that is growing is towards predominantly white people supporting what is viewed as racist policies.

Quote :

"In order to legally become a us citizen, it takes a little more than filling out paperwork. They have to attend classes, pay fees, etc. ... "

What is the point of that section of your post? I think the "amnesty" leads towards a legal status, not citizenship. A green card that allows them to work it's all that's necessary to bring the immigrants in to the tax system and allows us to know who's here.

Quote :

"Great, so you finally admited that our system is strained. Its a start. Now ill simplify it for you. Lets say you have a bridge with a capacity of 1000lbs. And its already holding 1500lbs, now we are thinking of adding another 500 lbs. See the problem? You dont think illegals are helping to strain the system? "

I'll admit the system is strained, but it doesn't seem to be from the mere presence of the illegals, but the way the budgeting process is set up WRT illegals. The first-hand example I know of deals with the school system in the most illegal-immigrant dense part of NC. Significant resources are spent to educate the illegals, at the implicit sacrificing of education for Americans. However, this problem would be solved if we gave those illegal immigrants a legal status so that they can at least rent homes easier, get paid better wages, and paid more in local, state, and federal taxes, and also now that the federal and state systems officially acknowledge their presence, they would be able to allocate better funding to this area.

As GrumpyGOP mentioned earlier, it's an issue with management, not capacity. The US is FAR from its capacity to comfortably support the population.

Quote :

"I like how you try to play on words with the social security. Yes they put in 7billion a year in which they cant draw out. However, they consume 28 billion of other social services. social services doesnt mean social security. got it? Cutting welfare benefits=life of crime? come on hahah, so now you are right that the anchor baby is eligible for services not the parents? haha. So, you think the govt sends food stamps and checks to the 9 week old? Or do you think they deposit it directly into his 401k. haha. No matter whose name is on the check, they now receive income from simply having a baby in the US. Now, if they have a couple more, we pay them more. They, oh, excuse me..the baby... is now eligible for public housing too. Sure, lay low, collect your govt checks, work under the table, collect those benefits for 18 yrs so you dont have far to wait until you can get YOUR name on those checks. OR if you have a couple children, you dont lose your stream of money. THis needs to be fixed. If you care to learn, you should look at what all we provide some people. What medicaid alone covers will make you sick. Its simply upside down. They have better drug coverage than most americans who pay for insurance and medicine copays. Good discusion though. "

You seem to be saying that we shouldn't help out American citizens if they need it. The "anchor baby" born here technically is an American. They didn't do anything illegal. You might think we can't reward the parents for being here illegally, but you want to punish an American child for something a dirty illegal immigrant did.

And personally, I see nothing wrong with helping people in need of medical attention, and many of the doctors who work on illegals don't either. It would be unethical for a pregnant illegal immigrant to show up at a hospital, and be refused help. At least, it would make Americans look very, very bad. So far, you've failed to prove that "anchor babies" are a major or significant factor with illegal immigrants. They are going to have babies naturally, and the US is as good a place as any. I'm sure there are people abusing the system, like any system, but I'm not convinced this is the common case. If there are obvious loop holes to be closed, then close them, but deny care to Americans doesn't seem like one of them.

7/9/2007 1:44:43 PM

Quote :

"sure, look at the amount of kids on diability with add. Id say around 80% of my medicaid kids are all on add meds. Why? because the parents get more money. You guys are amazing. You say that they dont get checks. I show you they get checks. Now whats the problem? "

The plural of anecdote is not data. You can't use your (extremely biased) personal perceptions to determine the full scope of the issue.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/An_update_on_attention_deficit_disorder.htm

Quote :

"A study of Medicaid recipients in North Carolina found that between 1992 and 1998, the proportion of children age 6–14 receiving stimulants rose from 4% to nearly 10%. According to one estimate, about 1% of preschool children are now taking stimulants..."

That's a very sudden rise, but it still doesn't support your assertion that there is some connection between medicaid, illegal immigrants, and ADD. Now that I think about it, i'm not sure why you ever brought up medicaid and ADD to this discussion. It doesn't seem to have any relevance.

Quote :

"...But some believe ADHD is still being diagnosed and treated too little rather than too much. According to a survey released in September 2000, physicians think that as many as half of cases are unrecognized. There’s evidence that poor and black children and those who lack private insurance or Medicaid are less likely to receive the diagnosis. In a national survey reported in 2001, nearly 90% of the parents of children diagnosed with ADHD said drugs had been recommended, but only 55% of the children were still taking them."

I would think physicians who specialize in this area are more authoritative than you are.

7/9/2007 1:58:15 PM

true to your name.

I first became aware of it by seeing such a high percentage of my medicaid children on ADD meds. After looking into it, I found that they get a disability check when their kids are placed on ADD meds. As I have stated before. I also recall seeing an article on the growing number of kids placed on these meds and abuse of the SSI that stems from it.

"There’s evidence that poor and black children and those who lack private insurance or Medicaid are less likely to receive the diagnosis."

Wow, you proved me wrong there... wait. So i guess that sentence could also mean that kids on private insurance or MEDICAID are more likely to receive the diagnosis. Thanks for the quote.

7/9/2007 2:12:44 PM