Yes, Palestine could sit there and stop fighting. Of course then they'd have to accept enforced poverty at the hands of Israel.

Could you imagine getting kicked off of your land, persecuted, and then held down in a slum? Ridiculous. Self-determinacy and autonomy to Palestine. As long as Israel works towards keeping Palestine in squalor, they can expect endless frustration and attacks. Duh.

1/18/2009 9:33:57 PM

Yes, it's Israel's master plan to keep the Palestinians poor and in squalor so they continue to kill Israeli citizens and give bad global PR to Israel because Israel gets so much out of doing this... oh wait, they don't.

Religion ftw. And lol to anyone who doesn't think Religion fuels this. Take religion out of the equation and this problem wouldn't exist.

1/19/2009 12:45:41 AM

Jews and Muslims were once natural allies. They defended Jerusalem together for over 1000 years.

1/19/2009 1:00:25 AM

Quote :

"Yes, it's Israel's master plan to keep the Palestinians poor and in squalor so they continue to kill Israeli citizens and give bad global PR to Israel because Israel gets so much out of doing this... oh wait, they don't. "

Israel has zero incentive to treat the Palestinians like humans, and they don't. Do you even pay attention to what's going on when there aren't headline sirens on FOX News?

1/19/2009 2:09:57 AM

Quote :

"Jews and Muslims were once natural allies. They defended Jerusalem together for over 1000 years."

lol... Jews were always second class citizens under Muslim rule, that just happened to be better than under most Christian rule up until a few centuries ago in parts of the west. Secularism gave Jews the opportunity to be treated as equals.

Quote :

"srael has zero incentive to treat the Palestinians like humans, and they don't. Do you even pay attention to what's going on when there aren't headline sirens on FOX News?"

Do you? Nice FOX news drop, that makes your argument right there.

Israel is harsh, but it has to be to survive. Neither side is the "good" side, and both do equally bad things. You are straight foolish if you think the average Palestinian is any more innocent than the average Israeli.

What should Israel do when Hamas fires rockets into it's territory and the other Palestinians do nothing to stop it? Everyone KNEW what was going to happen, Hamas KNEW that it was going to lure Israel in to attacking them, that's what they wanted. Why? So then Israel could be portrayed as being the big bad bully.

1/19/2009 4:58:38 AM

Quote :

"If you believe the bible, the Israelites took the land from others to begin with."

unless you are a direct descendent of the first nomadic tribes of the earth, havent we all 'taken' land?

natural selection, empires, invasions and wars have 'stolen' lands from peoples since mankind first sparked a fire in a cave.

1/19/2009 9:12:06 AM

Yes, of course, it's a silly argument. I was trolling.

But you'd be surprised at the people who use the ancient Israelites as a primary reason to support modern Israel, even though the two are essentially unrelated.

1/19/2009 10:09:16 AM

^I was just stating how frequently the land has changed hands throughout history, you can't give credit to any one of them for the entire region.

1/19/2009 11:36:43 AM

As we all would agree that the final solution cannot favor Israel upon others who lived there for thousands of years. And as I pointed before, 5 millions refugee + 4 millions living in Gaza and west bank have a legitimate right to have an identity, history, future and a country to call it home. This right is given to all the 6.7 billions human living on this earth, except Palestinian.

In the past, the nearby countries had been in wars in several occasions (1948, 1967 in part, and 1973 in part) to return this right to the Palestinian people. Today this option is not available anymore, and it is for Israel, Palestinian people, and the international community (including Arabian and Muslim countries) to grant this right. While the Palestinian resistance go far by attacking civilian targets, Israel is facing this resistance with an over aggressive power that don't distinguish between resistance, terrorists and non-militant individuals. Such power to destroy resistance have not been used before in history unless in few occasions that we remember with sorrow, and ask ourselves why we didn't stop it when we could.

I believe such right for Palestinian people should be identified by all of us, so we can work together to grant it in a peaceful way.

[Edited on January 19, 2009 at 3:24 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2009 3:22:00 PM

hey Beavis, did you just say "final solution"?

1/19/2009 3:37:56 PM

Quote :

"You are straight foolish if you think the average Palestinian is any more innocent than the average Israeli. "

In fact they are -- the average Palestinian lives in squalor, while the average Israel shares in the imperialist megaprofits of the west. The average Israel is part of the machine, whereas the average Palestinian is crushed beneath it. If you seriously are suggesting that average Palestinians need to form a militia to fight a well-armed terrorist group then you're crazy.

Quote :

"What should Israel do when Hamas fires rockets into it's territory and the other Palestinians do nothing to stop it? Everyone KNEW what was going to happen, Hamas KNEW that it was going to lure Israel in to attacking them, that's what they wanted. Why? So then Israel could be portrayed as being the big bad bully."

They could start with police actions instead of indiscriminate military strikes. Furthermore, they could adopt policies that don't keep Palestine an unproductive slum. Israel is more than a big bad bully -- imagine if the bully were also the teacher's pet.

Quote :

"hey Beavis, did you just say "final solution"?"

"Heh heh yeah that'd be cool. Kill 'em all. KILL 'EM ALL."
"Yeah. Let's burn something."
- Every conservative foreign policy ever

1/19/2009 3:52:35 PM

Quote :

"Furthermore, they could adopt policies that don't keep Palestine an unproductive slum. "

Sounds like a plan, while Iran isn't an economic powerhouse, I think a more well off and nuke bomb seeking Palestine would be EXACTLY what Israel needs!

I have a similar mentality that if we gave people something to care about other than to fall back on religion and pour their energy into that, maybe the violence would go down. But I don't know that I want to try that experiment with the hide in school rocket shooters next door.

1/19/2009 4:06:44 PM

Quote :

"This right is given to all the 6.7 billions human living on this earth, except Palestinian."

Tell me something, what distinguishes a Palestinian from an Egyption? Or a Syrian? Lebanese, Jordanian, Saudi? If all this countries feel so bad why don't they invite the Palestinians to be part of their countries? The West Bank was once part of Jordan, and Gaza was a part of Egypt. So why not go back to that? Paelstinians never asked for an independent country until Israel got one.

Its like the time I bought the last Wii from Gamestop and the 8 year old behind me in line starting crying because they guy at the counter didn't have any left to give him...except that in this case the 8 year old would be launching rockets at me so he could take mine.

1/19/2009 4:08:17 PM

^ As I pointed before, Palestinian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people) have a legitimate right to have an identity, history, future and a country to call it home. This right cannot be returned by nearby countries or other countries giving them the citizenship, for the previous four reasons:

1- IDENTITY: Palestinian people are a mix of those who lived in this area for thousands of years (Canaanites, Palestinians, Sons of Israel who became Christians, etc), and those who immigrated to the region for thousands of years (Romans, Arabs, etc). As a result they have their own culture, habits and appearance that is both unique and wonderful.

2- PAST: The history of Palestinians are different and unique through thousands of years. With this history Palestinian identify themselves, i.e. Palestinian are first to produce High Strength Steel which was a wonder for hundred of years.

3- FUTURE: Palestinians are smart and genuine people, who would like to work together to create a country and future for themselves, which they will gain its fruits.

4- COUNTRY TO CALL IT HOME: A lot of my family members live in many places far away from Egypt, but finally all of us return to our home country (Egypt), to meet, to feel safe, and to enjoy who we are (Egyptians). Without home, there is no family, there is no identity, there is no past, and there is no future!

As a summary, no other country can be home for Palestinian rather than Palestine. This might sound luxury, but it is the right that all of the other 6.7 billions persons have; The right Americans and others nations fought for; The right millions of people died for. I cannot deny Palestinians their righ to fight and even die for this rights, though I deny Israel using aggressive power against almost non-armed population that is over ruled by Israeli government.

Taking your wii example, there is wii for everyone. It is so selfish to take an extra wii from the other kid who already had it, and tell him/her to go and play with the wii of their friends.



[Edited on January 19, 2009 at 7:26 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2009 6:58:51 PM

Did you really just cite Wikipedia to make a historical reference?

ATTN: User < 100 50 20 posts

1/19/2009 7:18:51 PM

^ no I add the wiki page for extra reading and refrences, so I don't re-write everything here again! You can erase the wiki page or change it, but for me this is more like friendly discussion and invitation for peace.

1/19/2009 7:25:06 PM

The only reason the territory is called Palestine is because the Romans got pissed off at the Israelites and decided to name it after their bitter rivals, the Philistines (Goliath was part of this tribe)

The Philistines had already ceased existing as a tribe by that point, and modern day Palestinians are simply Arabs from the surrounding countries who got cut off when the Ottomans fell.

1) Canaanites are extinct (if they ever even did exist, all we have is religious text to go off of). And Palestinians are Arabs.

2) They had steel long before any remote ancestor of today's "Palestinians" came to the region. Get over yourself.

3)Hamas is trying to gain the fruits of Israel's labor. I know that many civilian Palestinians are willing to work and build up their own country. But their elected leaders have only shown the will to take from others.

4) Do I, as a Jew, have no right to return to my homeland, in Jerusalem, and not feel safe? As long as Hamas can launch rockets without consequence, it is not safe enough for me to go home. And for that matter, Hamas is only going to make things worse for Egypt as time goes on. You should be calling for their leaders' heads as well.

As a summary, you're an ass.

^And all i ever see you doing on here is hating on Israel and calling for an end to Israel violence against Palestine, but you have shown no regard for the other side. I don't want anybody suffering anywhere (for the exception of Hamas leaders who refuse to stop), and I hope that soon they can come to the 3-state solution. But people like you keep saying you want peace and then just focus on ending one side of the conflict.

[Edited on January 19, 2009 at 7:31 PM. Reason : -]

1/19/2009 7:28:29 PM

Quote :

"And all i ever see you doing on here is hating on Israel and calling for an end to Israel violence against Palestine, but you have shown no regard for the other side."

Haha, are you kidding? tmhatem has been looking out for the Palestinians, but he HAS been showing a regard, if only slightly, for both sides. Where have you been doing the same? You've practically been arguing for the past page that Palestinians don't really have a right to the land.

It seems your bitterness blinds you to rationality in this case. You're the perfect example of the personality that exists on both sides of this conflict, that keep it going. Despite Israel being the one to have gained significant lands over the past few decades, have a MUCH stronger military, get billions in aide from the US, suffer relatively few civilian casualties, and have a thriving economy, you still seem to see them as nothing but the victim. Likewise Hamas mortaring civilian areas is completely wrong and can only hurts their cause, which overshadows any potentially valid grievances the Palestinians might actually have.

There's only 3 outcomes to this conflict, at this point:
1) Israel has to completely wipe out the Palestinians
2) Hamas cuts their losses, accept whatever land they have, and essentially surrender to Israel
3) Israel makes concessions as part of a compromise to a long-term peace plan

Your arguments seem to want either 1) or 2) to happen.

Quote :

"I think all of us should point out to the bad results from both sides, so we hate the war and not hate each other. By this time, we will be able to work together to achieve peace. It is so Nobile thing to work hard for."

-tmhatem

Quote :

"I hope all parties will start sincere effort to end the conflict in Middle East, and reach to a final fare solution."

-tmhatem

1/19/2009 8:27:14 PM

^Because Israel already tried #3 in 2005-2006. Didn't change a damn thing.

1/19/2009 9:17:31 PM

Quote :

"4) Do I, as a Jew, have no right to return to my homeland, in Jerusalem, and not feel safe? As long as Hamas can launch rockets without consequence, it is not safe enough for me to go home. And for that matter, Hamas is only going to make things worse for Egypt as time goes on. You should be calling for their leaders' heads as well."

It's only your homeland because a bunch of powerful friends decided it was. Ownership is 9/10th of the law and apparently nobody cares about theft if you camp the stolen goods for long enough.

Self-determinacy, power, and autonomy to the Palestinian people. Go fuck yourself if you believe otherwise -- freedom, liberty, and prosperity to all people, regardless of their skin color or religion. Oh and also: fuck Imperialism and Western paternalism which resulted in this mess.

1/19/2009 9:47:19 PM

I don't have time to read through this thread, but anybody defending Israel in this situation is, more or less, a goddamn cocksucker.

1/19/2009 10:08:07 PM

I can understand why somebody would defend Israel for selfish reasons; i.e. an Israeli. People will always side with an oppressor if it suits the simple satisfaction of their desires.

The people with no dog in the fight, however? I don't get it.

1/19/2009 10:18:53 PM

Its selfish to defend the country you live in?

1/19/2009 10:38:13 PM

It's selfish to demand other peoples' things, steal them, camp them, and then claim they are your own. On top of that, it's selfish to defend an aggressive, imperialist power just because you enjoy your summer home.

1/19/2009 10:47:12 PM

I think today (Martin Luther King, JR. Day) and tomorrow (Barack Obama inauguration as the first black president for the United States of America) give us all a message of hope that peace and equality can be achieved; that all our legal dreams can be achieved; that all of the evil can be challenged.

I realize that we can achieve peace in the Middle East, this peace start with legitimate right of the Palestinian people to have an identity, history, future and a country to call it home, It can be realized by the understanding of this right by Israeli government, and the support of the international community.

I believe this dream is also in our reach, last cease-fire was supported by the international community rather than only four countries (Israel, US, Nauru and Venezuela!). I believe change will be coming, in a large part because we are realizing that we can together overcome any challenge, and create better future.

I realize that all of this discussion has nothing to do with me. Nevertheless, if we can emerge from this discussion with a solution that address the rights of Palestinian people, and the legal demands for Israeli government, then the dream will be more close. That is why I am trying to get over what divide us, and emphasize what make us closer.

[Edited on January 19, 2009 at 11:02 PM. Reason : ]

1/19/2009 10:49:00 PM

Quote :

"The people with no dog in the fight, however? I don't get it."

watch http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03072008/watch.html

1/19/2009 10:49:48 PM

The Christian right supports Israel for all the wrong reasons.

(If all the Jews are back in Israel, Jesus is coming back!)

1/19/2009 11:05:07 PM

Ummmm, god said so, what better reason is there?!??!?

LET'S GENETICALLY ENGINEER A RED HEIFFER WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH, AMIRITE?!?!?!?! that's wwjd!!!

1/19/2009 11:55:28 PM

Quote :

"Sure they could stop the attacks and go back to living in Israeli-enforced poverty."

Quote :

"Yes, Palestine could sit there and stop fighting. Of course then they'd have to accept enforced poverty at the hands of Israel."

Those are definitely the only two options. No other option exists for Hamas and Palestine in general.

1/20/2009 1:46:56 AM

can someone explain to me what you mean by 'Israeli enforced poverty?' Is this a reference to blockades on goods?

the Israeli's are not saints. I am not arguing that they are. I am arguing that while they have done several reprehensible things, their hand is forced, they are conditioned to respond harshly because of the neighborhood they live in. I side with them because, ultimately, they have a right to defend and protect their people. period. Hamas cares substantially less for innocent life and has demonstrated that with their actions.


for the record, the whole fucking thing is really annoying. religious zealotry has no place in a modern world.

1/20/2009 9:12:16 AM

Of course other possibilities for action exist, and probably the Palestinians would do better as a whole if they all adopted a Gandhian strategy to this whole mess.

But then again, as with any group of people, they're not a hive-mind controlled blob. There are some who have an interest in keeping the conflict violent. There are others who can't control their frustrations and hate, and they get played upon by those in the first category. The point I was trying to illustrate is that it's not so black and white over there -- it's not as simple as "Well the Palestinians (unified whole, of course) can't stop firing rockets so GO GET EM BOYS". Imagine Mexico retook Texas or some shit like that, and let white Texans live in Houston in abject poverty. Do you really think there wouldn't be attacks?

Quote :

"can someone explain to me what you mean by 'Israeli enforced poverty?' Is this a reference to blockades on goods?"

Israeli blockades, overly invasive Israeli excursions into Palestinian lands, encroachment and theft by Israeli settlers, reservation of only the shittiest land possible for the Palestinian people, etc. Practically the only thing they produce is olive oil, and it's not because Arabs are inherently stupid! Funny enough Arabs are human beings just like anybody else, and are a product of their heredity and environment. There's nothing magical about them that makes them radically different from other humans, thus causing Palestine to be a shit hole.

Quote :

"the Israeli's are not saints. I am not arguing that they are. I am arguing that while they have done several reprehensible things, their hand is forced, they are conditioned to respond harshly because of the neighborhood they live in. I side with them because, ultimately, they have a right to defend and protect their people. period. Hamas cares substantially less for innocent life and has demonstrated that with their actions."

It's hard to argue that thieves have a right to self-defense when they get caught with the goods.

Quote :

"for the record, the whole fucking thing is really annoying. religious zealotry has no place in a modern world."

I agree with this -- too bad the big three continually insist on making this planet a nightmare.

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 9:19 AM. Reason : .]

1/20/2009 9:13:57 AM

your mexican scenario doesnt apply. its not like two neighboring sovereign nations are stealing and occupying each others land. there is one nation who cut off pieces of itself.

1/20/2009 9:21:03 AM

Quote :

"Israeli blockades, overly invasive Israeli excursions into Palestinian lands, encroachment and theft by Israeli settlers, reservation of only the shittiest land possible for the Palestinian people, etc. Practically the only thing they produce is olive oil, and it's not because Arabs are inherently stupid! Funny enough Arabs are human beings just like anybody else, and are a product of their heredity and environment. There's nothing magical about them that makes them radically different from other humans, thus causing Palestine to be a shit hole."

asking honest questions here...

what came first? the Israeli aggressiveness listed here, or the multiple invasions of Israel from neighboring Arabs and the countless terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians? I just think they have been conditioned to act harshly. if they dont, they are seen as weak.

1/20/2009 9:28:30 AM

Quote :

"can someone explain to me what you mean by 'Israeli enforced poverty?'"

They can't explain it, because it is something conjured up to make Israel a boogeyman.

Basically, it's the blame anyone else mentality.

Again, Hamas attacks Israel knowing that Israel will respond the way they do. They do this for politcal reasons. But some people don't see this for some reason. It's like someone bitch slapping Mike Tyson, then crying when Tyson knocks them out.

Quote :

"In fact they are -- the average Palestinian lives in squalor, while the average Israel shares in the imperialist megaprofits of the west. The average Israel is part of the machine, whereas the average Palestinian is crushed beneath it. "

hahaha... ok.

Quote :

"If you seriously are suggesting that average Palestinians need to form a militia to fight a well-armed terrorist group then you're crazy."

Yeah, heaven forbid people take a stand. We can't have that. Police your own shit, or expect the hammer to fall.

Israel has recognized Palestinians right to exist and self-govern. Every fucking time that relations begin to improve, some whack job Muslims blow it and the cycle starts over again. Should Israel have been created? No. But it was, and it gained it's independence through blood. The Arabs should have let it go after 48, they didn't and thus the occupation of Palestinian lands.

And remember, Arab countries with Palestinian populations have in most cases treated them worse than the Israelis ever have. Look up the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan and Syria. Hell, most Palestinian terrorists organizations have there roots in those camps in other Arab countries and actually fought against them first.

1/20/2009 9:33:10 AM

Quote :

"what came first? the Israeli aggressiveness listed here, or the multiple invasions of Israel from neighboring Arabs and the countless terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians? I just think they have been conditioned to act harshly. if they dont, they are seen as weak."

Israeli aggression. Unless you consider UN-mandated theft legitimate, which is a funny reversal of opinion for many TSB conservatives.

Quote :

"They can't explain it, because it is something conjured up to make Israel a boogeyman. Basically, it's the blame anyone else mentality. Again, Hamas attacks Israel knowing that Israel will respond the way they do. They do this for politcal reasons. But some people don't see this for some reason. It's like someone bitch slapping Mike Tyson, then crying when Tyson knocks them out. "

Terrible analogy unless you condone the killing of American citizens for what American soldiers do.

Quote :

"Yeah, heaven forbid people take a stand. We can't have that. Police your own shit, or expect the hammer to fall. "

Again this is ridiculous. You would never lift a finger to risk yourself or your family against a well-organized and foreignly funded terrorist organization.

Quote :

"Israel has recognized Palestinians right to exist and self-govern. Every fucking time that relations begin to improve, some whack job Muslims blow it and the cycle starts over again. Should Israel have been created? No. But it was, and it gained it's independence through blood. The Arabs should have let it go after 48, they didn't and thus the occupation of Palestinian lands."

Do they blow it, really, or does the inevitable ham-fisted response blow it as well? I don't understand what Palestinians do under your model except continue to allow Israel to take their shit and hold them down. Israel would gladly grab the entire region if they thought they could get away with it -- and with the horrified apartheid conditions that result directly from their policies in their region, it might be more ethical from a consequentialist if they just up and did it instead of draw this out.

Quote :

"And remember, Arab countries with Palestinian populations have in most cases treated them worse than the Israelis ever have. Look up the treatment of Palestinians in Jordan and Syria. Hell, most Palestinian terrorists organizations have there roots in those camps in other Arab countries and actually fought against them first."

Oh boy other people treated Palestinians like shit too! I guess that makes it okay when Israel does it with America playmoney and war toys.

1/20/2009 10:07:32 AM

Quote :

"Again this is ridiculous. You would never lift a finger to risk yourself or your family against a well-organized and foreignly funded terrorist organization."

They did it in Iraq.

1/20/2009 10:20:05 AM

Quote :

"Again this is ridiculous. You would never lift a finger to risk yourself or your family against a well-organized and foreignly funded terrorist organization."

so are you conceding Hamas as a terrorist organization?

Quote :

"Israeli aggression. Unless you consider UN-mandated theft legitimate, which is a funny reversal of opinion for many TSB conservatives."

so Israelis began killing and impoverishing muslims first? what/when?

1/20/2009 10:25:36 AM

Quote :

"so are you conceding Hamas as a terrorist organization?"

Of course it's a fucking terrorist organization, but then again, so is the IDF.

Quote :

"so Israelis began killing and impoverishing muslims first? what/when?"

Are you trolling? This is a serious question. What do you perceive the history of the region from 1850-now to be, exactly? I'm just trying to gauge you here.

1/20/2009 10:40:20 AM

I am trying to gauge the 'starting point' of the debate. this a crux of the disagreement. when do YOU think the conflict as we know it today started? in that context, I think it started with the forming of the state, which was then immediately attacked by radical muslims and later arab states.

I realize you cant necessarily look at something like this so narrowly but we have to start somewhere and we damn sure cant argue who had biblical rights to the land.

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 11:03 AM. Reason : .]

1/20/2009 11:02:23 AM

It starts with both Jews and Arabs within the territory known as Palestine using guerrilla tacticts against the British who were unfairly treating everyone in the region.

Britain leaves, says Jews take this, Arabs take that.

Arabs upset with their cut, want the whole thing.

6 Arab nations attack the morning after Israel declares Independence. They purposefully waited until after the Sabbath to make their declaration because they knew the war was coming and didn't want to fight on the day of rest.

Israel takes names and kicks some ass and a country barely hours old defeats 6 Arab neighbors at the same time.


BTW, America doesn't just throw money into an Israel waste-pot. The US purchases Israeli manufactured goods, especially technology and pharmaceuticals. Its not like the US is just giving them money for free.

1/20/2009 12:13:31 PM

Quote :

"when do YOU think the conflict as we know it today started? in that context, I think it started with the forming of the state, which was then immediately attacked by radical muslims and later arab states."

See the fact you'd even say this shows you don't know much about the history. Clearly the conflict started in the earlier parts of the 20th century as the zionist movement built steam. Research the history of the Irgun, an internationally recognized Zionist terrorist organization which is the genesis of right-wing politics in Israel today. As much as people bitch about a terrorist organization running Palestine, you'd think they'd realize the same exact thing happens in Israel.

Quote :

" Britain leaves, says Jews take this, Arabs take that."

Nevermind the fact that Jewish settlers were moving in droves to the region. It wasn't their land to take. Imagine the US returned Texas to Mexico, and a bunch of Iranian immigrants in Texas forming their own independent state after immigrating there!

Quote :

" Israel takes names and kicks some ass and a country barely hours old defeats 6 Arab neighbors at the same time. "

This is because Israel is Western-funded through and through. It was a European colony -- what else would you call it?

Quote :

" BTW, America doesn't just throw money into an Israel waste-pot. The US purchases Israeli manufactured goods, especially technology and pharmaceuticals. Its not like the US is just giving them money for free. "

Hey look it's somebody who doesn't pay attention to our foreign aid budget/policy.

1/20/2009 12:53:46 PM

Quote :

"They did it in Iraq."

True.

1/20/2009 1:00:04 PM

It's commendable when civilians band together to boot violent thugs out of their neighborhoods -- but to claim that inaction is cooperation is ridiculous.

1/20/2009 1:01:47 PM

God damn religion.

1/20/2009 2:29:47 PM

In this case their inaction allows them to become Israeli cannon fodder and political pawns/targets for Hamas.

The populace is in a no win situation until they get fed up of the shit Hamas is bringing down on them and decides the throw them the fuck out. A Palestinian "Awakening Council" would do wonders for their cause.

But they won't.

[Edited on January 20, 2009 at 4:37 PM. Reason : *]

1/20/2009 4:36:13 PM

Let's ignore Fatah vs. Hamas because that's convenient.

1/20/2009 5:08:02 PM

Iraq and Palestine are in pretty different situations.

1/20/2009 6:02:18 PM

Quote :

"Imagine the US returned Texas to Mexico, and a bunch of Iranian immigrants in Texas forming their own independent state after immigrating there!"

Quote :

"It was a European colony -- what else would you call it?"

Mexico is a country. Palestine was a territory.

Quote :

"Nevermind the fact that Jewish settlers were moving in droves to the region. It wasn't their land to take."

But it was their land to buy if those living there already were willing to sell. Much of the Jewish population in Beer-Sheva, Petch Tikvah, and Tiberius among other major cities were immigrants who bought property.

Also, its not like the Jewish quarters of Jerusalem and all of Tel-Aviv and Tzvat were taken by force. Those were always Jewish cities and always will be regardless fo what happens to the political nation of Israel.

1/21/2009 12:08:57 AM

Quote :

" See the fact you'd even say this shows you don't know much about the history."

your reading comprehension sucks.

1/21/2009 8:46:27 AM

Quote :

"average Israel shares in the imperialist megaprofits of the west. "

trolly-mctroll

1/21/2009 9:12:31 AM