Fourth: what is a reasonable amount to spend on a car? 
I have been unable to reduce such a thing to a suitably defined range of values based on income because I suppose it has to be subjective. No absolute number would work as the amount of money made in a year by an American varies wildly. Surely bill gates should be allowed to buy whatever he wants. The objectionable part is THAT anyone can afford so much more than anyone else. I don't believe it should be taken from people who just simply have managed to obtain it, but certainly we have a duty to successive generations to prevent the return of robber-barons which might deprive us of a middle class entirely. There have been many advancements in just the last few decades which have made us customers of only a few monopolies for some products, and their captains are operating on a plane beyond what the rest of us can comprehend. If the sultan of Brunei or dick glickenhaus or the queen of England wants to commission one-offs to suit their tastes, somehow that seems less ostentatious than that Porsche knows with reasonable certainty that building something like the 918 and selling it for, let's say $350k+, will be able to sell out. It seems fine to me that someone with cash could get what they want because they can hire that level of craftsmanship, but the idea that there is a calculable segment of the population that will emerge to buy every one of the range of cars available from any brand at such high prices seems to render them an indicator of a sort of royalty, and that seeing a Ferrari 599gto might as well be a "here's your sign" that the driver has somehow gotten the better of the rest of us, not living out what the rest of us would like to experience.  

I don't buy the 'paying for tomorrow's trickle-down technology' angle in the sense that it is always satisfying to do so. It ceases to be 'in the name of advancement' when the percent cost of the 'early adopter' equipment is merely an accessory on an already expensive car without the adherence of that tech.  Buying a mclaren for it's carbon monocoque might have been a legit claim to heightening the car making industry's knowledge of the material... But paying for carbon ceramic brakes as an option fails to convince me of the merit of the car it is only optionally bolted to. 

So the vtg turbos on the 997 turbo fail to convince me that the turbo is worth its absolute price, despite the fact that they might be worth the cost over the base 911. Variable turbine geometry is not new, it's just new to quick-revving gasoline cars. The 997 turbo may be unique for having it, but you know what else allows for a lack of turbo lag? Smaller turbos on a bigger motor. Diesels run so much hotter than gas cars, it's possible that its significance to the car world on smaller displacement motors than the 997 turbo will amount to a difference without a distinction. Maybe vtg on a 997 turbo allows for quicker throttle response and bigger torque lower in the rev range, but how much is it REALLY worth to the rest of the car world? It's worth significantly different delivery on a motor of roughly the same total output, so what would it be worth to less aggressively turboed cars, like say a vw gti? It seems to me that paying for add-on equipment that isn't strictly necessary to the function of a car is to ignore an indicator that maybe the equipment is only ever going to be alternative, rather than superior technology. Superior tech obliterates previous tech immediately. Cotton gin, interchangeable parts, printing press, the wheel, Viagra, the electric starter, disc brakes.  

(I'm far less satisfied with my answer here. I felt that much of it was just forming the anticipated counter-argument. Certainly investment is required for the development of tech. I guess i just don't see supercars that seem to be pushing the limit of new tech so much as I see desirable use of existing tech among supercars these days. One possible exception might have been the jaguar cx75's microturbines, but that's a concept and wouldn't really be offered to us before it works already. I mean, even if that were a car you could buy, the real 'paying for it's development' more significantly should be accorded to whoever paid for the prototype, not the ppl who paid for the car that benefited. Supercars as we're seeing them now are not really the same as, say, jay leno's crazy ass turbine car gm built for him. I'm also not convinced of the appeal of something before it is suitable for diminishing returns allowing it's fitment to lesser cars. Take single-clutch semiautomatic transmissions, like the f355 f1 that has seen countless improvements and proliferation to maseratis, astons, and lambos... Only for a double-clutch six speed to debut in, of all cars, an Audi tt v6. )

1/15/2011 12:05:03 AM

I can't possibly respond to all of that, please be more concise.

Also, I bet you didn't know that Porsche was the first to use a double clutch transmissions, in a race car... in 1983.

I think you should at least ride in any one of the mentioned cars, or a 996 twin turbo. It makes all the "show" super cars look silly, it's everyday usable, comfortable, yet explosive unlike most that come close to eclipsing it's performance potential, while being a relative bargain (yeah, I just said that). I gave a ride in one to a few people on this board, I hope somebody chimes in. I didn't always like Porsches, I grew to like them (and German cars in general) after driving/riding in/teaching in/working on, etc. countless cars from SMiata to SE30 to GT3 cup/RSR, street cars, Honda Challenge, American Iron and so forth. Try to be objective, there's a lot out there that's worth the time to know and appreciate, even if you'll never own one. Like the Ferrari F40. It's such a bad ass and (currently) under appreciated car, probably b/c of it's stratospheric price.

1/15/2011 1:17:36 AM

^no, I did know that. It was in a 962, right?

Geez, ahmet, I don't dislike the 911 on an absolute scale. I just think it's sold in a dishonest fashion and is overrated and blocks the high-specifications of a better car. I'm sure a 997 turbo would knock my socks off. I just can't imagine getting out and saying, " my god, it IS worth one hundred thousand dollars more than a base barely used cayman." These things just need perspective. If Porsche didn't sell all the lesser models, it couldn't get what it charges for the upper models. It's an intentionally packed scale so it can justify the margins between the models. There's no way the cost amounts to that big of a difference. Remember back when Porsche nearly went under before the boxster was launched? That was before they figured out to offer 15 models of the same car and have a cheaper car whose tooling could share costs and be offered as much as 30 grand less. They didn't become the most profitable car company for a while by packing proportional dollars' worth of tech into cars for what they charged.

How's this for concise: I'm going to bed. I don't know why I bother, sometimes.

1/15/2011 1:49:42 AM

Just making sure the named poster sees this from the previous page:

Ahmet, your [future] GT3 isn't that fast...

Quote :

"The Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium plays host to a variety of racing events, ranging from from Formula One and touring car to weekend track days. When out on the course in a production car, it might feel like you are conquering the Eau Rouge better than any human on the planet. This video mashup is here to remind that you're not. This isn't ground-breaking information, but it is interesting to see just how much faster an F1 car is around a series of high-speed turns. Someone over in the VWVortex's Car Lounge decided to overlay two videos of the same corner, and while they don't line up perfectly, you get the point."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex5dhhpSHCw

Insane!

1/15/2011 2:27:56 AM

I for one think Ahmet and danmangt40 should just get it over with, move ahead, and fuck one another.

1/15/2011 8:54:35 AM

I can't believe danmangt40 wrote all that stuff, mainly centered around Porsches and how much they cost, while having never ridden in or driven one. Until you do, you just don't know. (That's not to say I didn't enjoy reading your posts)

Sure plenty of people buy Porsches to cruise the boulevards in, but thats not all people buy them for. There's a reason they're one of the most numerous cars you will find at any track on a given weekend, be it amatuer or professional. You can't buy a car that's more solidly built, reliable and track ready out of the box. You just can't.

1/15/2011 10:39:17 AM

It's rediculous how cheaply you can get a 996 c2 now. It's just fucking absurd. Well worth it. Holy shit, I'm just sitting here thinking about it...and as I type I just can't believe how cheap they are for what they really fucking are. Fucking hell

1/15/2011 10:58:32 AM

^^Tke-teg:

I've driven and ridden in lots of Porsches, just no 911s yet. The caymans, both 2.7L and 3.4L, are by most respects, the most enjoyable cars I've ever driven... and I've driven several of them, and many more boxsters. I will probably buy a boxster later this year, if some things work out...Also have ridden in 968, 944, 914, and a 928, but I usually don't count that. As I said above, I know I need to ride in a 911 to be sure, but dealers of any walk have been tight with those at every 911 I've investigated.

1/19/2011 2:10:23 PM

ok people, talk about this:
Porsche four-cylinder details emerge

Quote :

"New details are starting to emerge about Porsche's four-cylinder engine, which is slated to be launched in an entry-level roadster. In an interview with Autocar, Wolfgang Durheimer - the outgoing head of research and development - confirmed the engine is under development and could be used in the 2012 Boxster and Cayman. More interestingly, he went on to say it "could be applied, if necessary, to the 911." While this sounds like blasphemy, he added "Our decision is, on the 911 side, we'll stay with the flat [six]. But there are opportunities for the future." Expected to displace 2.5-liters, the four-cylinder engine will reportedly be unique to Porsche and available in turbocharged guise. While specifications are still pending, the latter variant could produce upwards of 360 hp (268 kW / 365 PS). In similar news today BMW has announced their all-new 2.0 liter turbocharged 4-cylinder petrol/gasoline engine in the X1 xDrive28."

yeah... a 911 with 4 cylinders... hmmmm

1/19/2011 4:28:46 PM

360hp and 150 ft-lbs of torque...GAY!!

1/19/2011 4:31:28 PM

BMW announced a new 2.0 litre turbo today.

242 hp and 258 lb-ft

Very healthy for a single turbo 2 liter engine.

1/19/2011 4:37:00 PM

too bad this isn't the BMW thread

1/19/2011 5:02:52 PM

^^ is it made for them by hyundai? Those numbers are really close to the genesis turbo numbers.

^^^^ and the porsche 4 will be made by subaru ! lol


[Edited on January 19, 2011 at 7:24 PM. Reason : .]

1/19/2011 7:22:34 PM

Quote :

"Very healthy for a single turbo 2 liter engine."

LOL

1/19/2011 7:48:12 PM

5x^: sparky:

that small an amount of peak torque wouldn't be consistent with a 2.5L flat-four making 360 hp by a turbocharger in a tune designed to improve fuel economy. Humor me, because this logic takes a few assumptions based on what I believe are fairly common for typical production cars. It isn't STRICTLY accurate, but I'm pretty sure it'll fit this case.

Turbos simulate displacement by making more air available once spooled up, and then then the proportional, larger, amount of fuel can be added even though there wouldn't be enough air in the cylinders at ambient pressure to burn all of it. The higher pressure makes bigger booms possible at lower revs. Which means more torque, lower, than the naturally aspirated motor could manage.

Power in hp is equal to torque in lbft (at a certain rpm)*engine speed (that same rpm), divided by 5252.

If the peak torque occurred at 5252, then only 150 hp would be made at that speed. (150lbft*5252rpm/5252=150)... there might be more power available, peak, but it presumes that torque doesn't fall off as speed rises, which IS possible.... but... if we assume that happens (nearly peak torque is available at higher revs, but no more than 150 hp, since that's the peak), then we get locked into a contradictory characteristic to create a peak anywhere near 360hp: super high revs.

If we know that 360 hp takes place somewhere in the rev band where nearly (but not quite) peak torque is available (which would be consistent with a fuel-efficient motor having a relatively flat torque curve), then we can assume all-but-entirely peak amount of torque is available to find the lowest theoretical location that the motor could manage to produce that amount of power, since any amount less means even higher rpm for peak hp to occur.

so, 360=150*'revsfor360'/5252 --> (360*5252)/150='revsfor360'=12605 rpm.

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that porsche would be trying to improve its fuel economy with a 2.5L motor that revs to nearly 13000 rpm! therefore... I'm pretty sure we can see a torque/hp scaling more consistent with that of high-efficiency turboed engines, like:
vw 2.0T (200hp,207lbft)
ford ecoboost (365hp, 355 lbft in the sho, 365hp, 420hp in the f150)
vw 1.4tsi (168hp /177 lbft)
chevy cruze 1.4t (138hp,148lbft)
gm ecotec turbo 2.0 I4 (260hp, 260lbft)
gm ecotec 2.4L v6, like in the new buick regal (220 hp, 258lbft)
bmw 3.0L I6 turbos (300 hp, 295 lbft), (315hp, 332 lbft), (335hp, 332/370overboost lbft)
porsche 997 mk2 turbo (500hp, 480/510overboost lbft), 997 turbo S (530 hp, 516 lbft)
(anyone suggesting the 997 turbo isn't an example of a turbo used to promote efficiency should consider that the gt2rs has 620 hp, but the same 516 lbft as the turbo S, so 120hp hp up on the 'base' turbo but only 6 more lbft than the base turbo's peak, during overboost. And only 26 lbft up on the turbo's non-overboost peak torque).


The only motor I can think of that makes anywhere near 360 hp with only 150 lbft
might be one of the motorcycle-derived v8s.

hartley v8: http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562069.htm
420 hp, 245 lbft

RS performance:
http://www.rsperformance.co.uk/
rst-v8
"The original 2.0 ltr V8 weighing a mere 73kgs and giving 380bhp@10,000rpm has now evolved
into a 2.4 ltr V8 with a supercharger option producing in excess of 500bhp@10,000rpm
and is made under license to Mountune Racing."

pretty sure the 500 hp version makes 300lbft... can't find the torque that the 380hp version made.

they've also worked on a 2.3L supercharged "V master" v6 for installation in a heavily modified lotus exige awhile ago they called the RSW evo... 520 hp and 380 lbft. I suspect that na versions of that would also be close to the hp/torque relationship of 360/150.

http://www.pilbeamracing.co.uk/rsw_evo.htm
haven't heard of much development on it since seeing this, prob back in 2009.

1/19/2011 8:25:36 PM

lol gg dman i would venture a guess to say that the porsche 2.5 liter turbo 4 makes pretty decent torque...

i mean the 944 did. The problem with the engine is with direct injection the manufacturers are pushing small turbos a lot harder so a chip might not get you shit.

1/19/2011 8:45:21 PM

I had a 944 turbo S that w/an aggressive chip and 18lbs of boost (absolutely no other modifications) put down 310ft-lbs and 260hp @the wheels.

That car FELT so fast, at it's peak it could accelerate w/Corvettes but if you were not in it's tiny power bad, or god forbid had to shift, then it was full of Still cool car though, very well put together and stout. Extremely well balanced too.

1/19/2011 9:49:37 PM

interesting

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-Steel-Slant-Nose-Wide-Body-400-HP-EFI-/220731084541?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3364990efd#ht_2722wt_1166

1/28/2011 10:39:59 PM

Quote :

"Radiator built by Ron Davis, Engineered by Renegade Hybrids for Porsche 911"

At least with 944/951 swaps, Ron Davis radiators have not always proven to be sufficient enough for cooling swapped vehicles.

Otherwise, a clean looking car/swap.

1/29/2011 12:36:11 AM

Quote :

"Ahmet The current plan is to axe the Panamera as well as the Cayenne when the current development cycle runs out... 10/28/2009 10:16:42 PM"

Panamera Hybrid is out. Cayenne Junior (Cajun?) has been confirmed. Panamera LWB possibly to debut for 2012, as well as other possible Panamera variations (shooting brake, convertible) to be made based on the 2nd gen Panamera which will be out in 2014 as a 2015 model. Diesels to be made too. Sorry Ahmet, you were wrong. If they were to axe the Panamera and especially the Cayenne, they might as well close shop and pack up!

2/25/2011 7:07:30 PM

Except when I posted that Porsche was under different ownership AND management, so kindly suck it.
Xoxo

2/25/2011 7:32:39 PM

Still, I knew they wouldn't kill their cash cows... that's just... stupid/suicide, man! Even the previous management wouldn't have killed them, they would have come to their [business] senses.

2/25/2011 7:35:35 PM

Quote :

"KINDLY SUCK IT"

2/25/2011 8:03:12 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riGejPAqNVw&feature=related

2/26/2011 7:08:44 PM

Classic Porsche 911 with modern technology by Singer Design

For real porsche lovers, such as our resident Ahmet.

http://www.singervehicledesign.com

http://www.worldcarfans.com/111031131048/classic-porsche-911-with-modern-technology-by-singer-design

Quote :

"Engines • The engines in the Singer 911 are based on 3.6L air cooled units fitted to the 911 from 1990. • These engines are comprehensively stripped and then meticulously blue printed, balanced and hand built using new or state of the art componentry.  There is a choice of three engines, all with specific characters and capacities from 3.6 L to 3.9L  with an ultimate power range of 300-425BHP .  They benefit from true state of the art breakthroughs in cylinder head design, construction and engine management and successfully optimize every facet of the classic air cooled flat six. • We say with confidence that these are the most advanced, powerful, efficient and reliable air-cooled engines that are currently possible to build. • Engine Options: - 300BHP - 380BHP - 425BHP"

3/15/2011 8:39:34 PM

one of the coolest car ads ever made

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=O-Lq3mHgNOI

3/29/2011 8:49:38 PM

how many forums do you post these things on??

3/29/2011 8:55:09 PM

just this, the one and only forum i am a member of

if you have a problem with my posts, refrain from reading/opening them

else, as Ahmet said

Quote :

"KINDLY SUCK IT"

3/29/2011 8:59:41 PM

most of us who care about this stuff read them from the source

so kindly... blow me.

3/30/2011 7:47:33 AM

in before OEPII

4/29/2011 10:39:02 AM

New ultimate NA 911 - 911 GT3 RS 4.0

4.0 flat 6 500hp
2988 curb weight

$185k

4/29/2011 11:52:40 AM

^ and it sounds amazing.. i got weak in the knees hearing it.

4/29/2011 11:58:13 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXHNJGf3A5k

[Edited on April 29, 2011 at 8:00 PM. Reason : .]

4/29/2011 7:50:25 PM

///MEH

5/1/2011 1:17:11 PM

Panamera Diesel

745 mile range

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/02/porsche-panamera-diesel-goes-the-distance-overseas/

That's 35 mpg average!

5/3/2011 11:46:52 AM

Fuck that.


I love how every automaker these days is trying to be all things to all people

5/3/2011 4:10:48 PM

Yep... once upon a time all porsche made was really fast beetle derivatives.
Now they have SUVs and... i guess its a diesel station wagon...
I mean the only good thing that has come out of this diversification is superbly balanced mid engine chassis that i don't think anyone in the garage owns because lets face it it feels kinda chicky.

5/3/2011 4:16:11 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Twin-Turbo-GT2-6-SPEED-550HP-LOTS-UPGRADES-NAV-/300552221855?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item45fa4ef49f


whoa...

a gt2 for 37k... 72,000 miles i could handle that.

5/5/2011 12:40:06 PM

Except that's not a GT2, it's instead the least desirable year of the 996 turbo, with a horrible interior and casette player w/out even sport seats, power package or anything else. I've not seen a real GT2 change hands for under $70k yet. Last week one with no miles sold for $130k FYI.

For $35-37k you can find a 2002-2003 996 turbo in good shape with higher miles which I think is a great deal for what you get, though remember to factor in taxes/insurance which are not cheap for that price range. About $1k just for a lowly Carrera 4S of the same vintage

5/5/2011 2:30:10 PM

Ahmet... what do people use to tune 911s with??

I really have a feeling that's the direction my next car will be... unless the next M5 comes with awd and a manual gear box lol.

5/5/2011 2:49:09 PM

their wallets.

5/5/2011 3:25:47 PM

It's most common to do exhaust +standard flash for around 500-530hp depending on boost. If I buy one (currently looking) would probably stop at just the tune for a few hp less than that, cost is roughly $600-1000 for a good tune flashed through the OBD-II port and fully reversible.

5/5/2011 4:54:26 PM

man... porsche tax... Its really not thaaaat bad though considering.

one day open source tuning for all!!

I mean what if one were to swap turbos and fueling... 2/3k?

5/5/2011 5:55:03 PM

Why, is 550+ hp not enough? Last one I drove was the most real world useable fast car I've driven. It could light up all 4 in a power drift at 50+ mph... All it had was full exhaust, power kit option and a tune. If anything, it didn't feel fast was the biggest shortfall of the car.

5/5/2011 10:15:09 PM

enough is never enough!!!

5/5/2011 11:18:08 PM

why don't you spend that hypothetical money on this hypothetical porsche that is unlikely to materialize on hypothetically learning to drive?

5/6/2011 8:48:39 AM

lol I'm hypothetically handicapped.

5/6/2011 9:14:05 AM

Hypothetical track snobbery ITT.
It's more likely than you think.

5/6/2011 9:25:35 AM

Chat with an instructor for 5 minutes and ride with one for a session... Driving a 996 turbo, I guarantee you'll be faster than 3/4ths of the people at any given event in a beginner session.*

*Does not apply if you have a mental disability or a total lack of self control (in which case you'll introduce your car to a wall in short order).

Cliff notes: Buy 911 turbo.

[Edited on May 6, 2011 at 10:47 AM. Reason : buy!]

5/6/2011 10:47:06 AM

http://fast-cash-for-cars.ebizautos.com/detail-2002-porsche-911_carrera-2dr_carrera_turbo_tiptronic-used-7073673.html

Hot!

5/6/2011 12:49:01 PM