then your 'point' is the same fucking one i was trying to make. sorry if you can't properly comprehend it.

Quote :

"more so that 95% of consumers plain don't care about the zune, probably never even heard of it or could recognize the name much less what it does. so it doesn't matter what it can do or what it can't do better or worse than a variety of istuff.""

actually, my poll pretty much exactly proved this ^ which is exactly what I said. so if a 5% base of customers know about it at all that would logically lead to the conclusion that 95% don't, at all.

now if this is your point, that a device can somehow become successful with 5% recognition then you're drinking way too much of the koolaid over there.

Quote :

"The reason the iPod succeeded and rose to dominance is because they established an ecosystem. The device was largely secondary. The 4G iPod was the standard the grew the ecosystem"

'ecosystem' the new buzz word huh? great miss-use of the word. you might know code and buzzwords but you don't know jackshit about 'ecosystems'

again "why are you acting like such an arrogant ass fool?" but by all means keep jamming that foot in your mouth.

i'm pretty confident that the sales figures this winter holiday season will bear out the fact that the zune HD will be just as much as a failure as the first zune was.

Quote :

"Just think about how dumb the general population is...going from needing a CD to your entire music collection is in digital form on one small device is a pretty huge leap for the average joe. "

exactly, the average joe has no clue that a new better ipod alternative is even out there, so what makes you think he'd buy it? intuition? a leap of fucking faith? get real.

10/27/2009 4:16:21 PM

Quote :

"if you came out with something totally off the wall and unheard of no matter how awesome it was only early adopters would buy it because the general public isn't familiar with it."

The iPod wasn't "totally off the wall" though. Like you said, there were digital audio players out when the iPod hit market that were relatively successful by Rio and Creative.

Quote :

"exactly, the average joe has no clue that a new better ipod alternative is even out there, so what makes you think he'd buy it? intuition? a leap of fucking faith? get real."

The same way people find out about any other product that comes out? You're acting like you can't fathom how it is products become popular if they don't have brand recognition before hitting the market.

At the end of the day they'll have to do the same thing Apple does: advertise; which is something they really haven't done yet.

10/27/2009 4:39:39 PM

^ ding ding ding ding ding, and we have a winner folks!

i never said it couldn't be successful, just that it would not without, as stein pointed out: Good advertising! I'm so very glad that someone finally made the link that I was beginning to think that no one would make.

noen: why so srs? you're gettin' all butthurt over this for some reason. name calling, etc. you're really not winning any friends by doing that.

anyways i'm hopping out of this circle jerk as nothing interesting is being done here anymore

10/27/2009 4:42:37 PM

Quote :

"The iPod wasn't "totally off the wall" though. Like you said, there were digital audio players out when the iPod hit market that were relatively successful by Rio and Creative."

I was not referring to the iPod directly. I was referring to Mp3 players in general. to the average joe, an mp3 player at first was totally off the wall. Just like a laptop was before that.

Quote :

"The same way people find out about any other product that comes out? You're acting like you can't fathom how it is products become popular if they don't have brand recognition before hitting the market. At the end of the day they'll have to do the same thing Apple does: advertise; which is something they really haven't done yet."

thats the tune we've been singing...brand recognition.

[Edited on October 27, 2009 at 4:49 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2009 4:48:37 PM

Quote :

"actually, my poll pretty much exactly proved this ^ which is exactly what I said. so if a 5% base of customers know about it at all that would logically lead to the conclusion that 95% don't, at all. now if this is your point, that a device can somehow become successful with 5% recognition then you're drinking way too much of the koolaid over there. "

The Zune (both iterations) were profitable and hold 10% of the PMP market. So something is wrong with your poll. There are millions of units out there, most domestically. You are confusing "successful" with "market domination". There is a difference. Not every market is monopolostic, in fact very few are. The Zune is very profitable, it sells well for the resources put into it, and people that bought them generally like it. If that's not success, I don't know what books you're reading.

Quote :

"'ecosystem' the new buzz word huh? great miss-use of the word. you might know code and buzzwords but you don't know jackshit about 'ecosystems' again "why are you acting like such an arrogant ass fool?" but by all means keep jamming that foot in your mouth. i'm pretty confident that the sales figures this winter holiday season will bear out the fact that the zune HD will be just as much as a failure as the first zune was."

Ecosystem: a system formed by the interaction of a community of organisms with their environment.

iPod = organism, iTunes = environment. I know a whole lot about software and market ecosystems. At least enough that several large organizations have seen fit to pay me to help create and deliver them.

The ZuneHD has already sold it's entire manufacturing capacity through next year. Hell, even employees can't get them until the end of this month because of the demand. But you keep on dreaming those dreams buddy

10/27/2009 5:29:04 PM

Quote :

"The ZuneHD has already sold it's entire manufacturing capacity through next year. Hell, even employees can't get them until the end of this month because of the demand. But you keep on dreaming those dreams buddy "

they are in-stock everywhere, so how have they already sold it's entire manufacturing capacity already? you can buy it right now on amazon and have it in 2-3days, you mean wholesale to retail outlets they've sold their capacity thru jan... so once they're gone they're gone (retail) until they can make more next year?

[Edited on October 27, 2009 at 5:57 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2009 5:55:42 PM

^Yeah, sorry for the confusion. You and Arab13 are correct in that they are plenty available at retail now.

10/27/2009 6:14:03 PM

Quote :

"iPod = organism, iTunes = environment. I know a whole lot about software and market ecosystems. At least enough that several large organizations have seen fit to pay me to help create and deliver them."

word and definition corruption

correlations to actual ecosystems are extremely limited due to nature of the objects and interactions involved. the biologist in me rages against this sort of bizspeak.

meh, just another example of words being abducted and misused to meet some entirely different function.


dude, you really think i care enough to dream about the zune failing? because I don't.

Quote :

"plenty available at retail now."

now soon we will see if they actually move

if anything it's a interesting experiment.

you take this shit way too personally.

10/27/2009 6:42:06 PM

I don't think it's corruption. It's extremely correlated to actual ecosystems. It's a lot easier to deal with because the systems are much more closed, but it's still a system. I can see where you're coming from (I figured that would be your gripe), but language is malleable and contextual shifts of meaning like this happen all the time, not just in business.

Feel free to provide a more apt term than ecosystem.

And I take lots of things seriously, but I don't let anything on this site affect me personally. It's the internet man.

[Edited on October 27, 2009 at 6:59 PM. Reason : .]

10/27/2009 6:58:24 PM

environment works better than ecosystem


Main Entry: en·vi·ron·ment
Pronunciation: \in-'vi-r?(n)-m?nt, -'vi(-?)r(n)-\
Function: noun
Date: 1827


2 a : the complex of physical, chemical, and biotic factors (as climate, soil, and living things) that act upon an organism or an ecological community and ultimately determine its form and survival b : the aggregate of social and cultural conditions that influence the life of an individual or community

ecosystem implies much more complex two way feedback than the static objects you're relating to provide. most of the time that interaction is one way, you interacting with it. the parts are often very discrete and can exist fully and completely without each other.

even with software constantly changing the elements are still entirely too static.


i blame businesses need to appear overly dynamic.... just look at all the other buzzwords they have generated....

[Edited on October 27, 2009 at 8:55 PM. Reason : s]

10/27/2009 8:52:33 PM

the ecosystem is between the user, the device and the services that drive the device (and ultimately the content producers behind those services).

it's very much a two way system, and very intentionally linked through the chain (producer -> distribution mechanism -> consumption method -> consumer). The consumer directs the chain upward with purchasing habits, and usage data.

10/27/2009 8:58:53 PM

Quote :

" you take this shit way too personally."

lol, who is the guy with the 100 person survey?

I'm sure it was very scientific.

10/27/2009 9:37:24 PM

Also, did you actually get 100 responses, or just send it out to 100 people and assume that anyone who didn't bother to respond to your non-work-related email hadn't heard of it? I'm actually curious, not accusatory, because I'd be impressed if you did get 100 responses from coworkers to something stupid like this.

10/28/2009 12:48:36 AM

lol nah wasn't coworkers, just a list serve email, got about 100 responses, it was easy to tell who hadn't heard of it, got a lot of one word subject lines "No" all the effort of farting really. and hey i get bored

also the petty name calling and insults that others in this thread have been pretty liberal with implying more than monotone emotional response.

Quote :

"(producer -> distribution mechanism -> consumption method -> consumer)"

that's only one way, even if the consumer 'directs' it. the analogy is weak. ecosystems are much more complex than your simple pathway, the ecosystem route through one organism alone is many times more involved than "(producer -> distribution mechanism -> consumption method -> consumer)" (NG has a good article where they use beavers as a example of a eco-web, affecting several dozen other species directly and indirectly)

your system has very little lateral movement, it's a simple path.

calling it a ecosystem is like me calling my single computer or lan at home the internet. gross altering of scope.

10/28/2009 10:21:10 AM

I'm very aware of natural ecosystems.

You missed the next sentence. It's not a one way path. An ecosystem is the combination of organisms (people) functionaing with abiotic factors (devices) in an environment. The implied difference is that the emphasis of the system is not based on food and survival, but rather entertainment and or productivity.

This isn't some buzzword, there are tons of books, articles, and theoretical approaches to system modeling based off of natural ecosystems. You can think it's a perversion or incorrect use all you want, but the rest of the world accepted it (and has benefited business and consumers greatly).

10/28/2009 9:04:07 PM

oh i didn't say it didn't work, just that i dislike terms that are used like that and i didn't think it was or is, used properly, not that it's not possible to base something off of it just that doesn't make it like it enough to call it that.

Quote :

"system modeling based off of natural ecosystems."

i just don't like others using words that are only loosely based on their idea or concept, it's like calling a rollerskate a car

10/29/2009 10:30:53 AM

Coworker has this device. I'm hot for it since I'm a huge fan of the zune service.

10/29/2009 5:57:53 PM

here's my only issue (why i haven't bought one already)

i get an upgrade phone from VZW in March and the Droid has come out, it has 16/32GB of storage, plus GPS, plus 10,000+ apps, camera, qwerty keyboard, multitasking, open-source and it's a phone, at $199/$299, it's a no-brainer, as much as i love the UI & media features & gaming of the Zune, I can't fathom having (2) devices

why they didn't just make this a full-fledged phone w/ GPS & camera capabilities, i dunno. i mean the only market this has is the PMP market which is almost non-existent. nearly all the phones coming out in the next 6 months have more features and similar if not same capabilities of the Zune (sans radio) but they do 10x as much.

it's clear that the zune isn't MEANT to compete against the newer phones, but if i'm going to drop $bank on a device that plays music & video & games, it's going to be my PHONE since i NEED a cell phone, i don't NEED a PMP, and if i have a phone that does it all, why bother?

up until this month, VZW didn't have a decent smartphone with android on it. now it does. now i don't need a zune hd.

[Edited on October 29, 2009 at 6:10 PM. Reason : .]

10/29/2009 6:03:08 PM

I will not purchase this.

10/30/2009 9:09:21 AM

PGR: Ferrari Edition


If you compare this to the best the iPhone has to offer, Asphalt 5, it's night and day. Double the framerate, much higher textures, insanely higher polycount, no geometry popup (which is very noticeable in every iPhone 3d game)

Compare for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkXs3LT7acI , and tell me you can't tell the difference.

[Edited on November 11, 2009 at 5:55 PM. Reason : .]

11/11/2009 5:52:17 PM

LOL...thanks for the bump i totally forgot this device existed.

11/11/2009 5:54:36 PM

Any idea if Amazon will have color options other than the default 32GB platinum and 16GB black?

11/11/2009 6:57:44 PM

Quote :

"(which is very noticeable in every iPhone 3d game)"

I can't believe you never get tired of just straight up lying in order to "make your point".

[Edited on November 11, 2009 at 7:25 PM. Reason : I heard the Zune HD gives you H1N1!!!]

11/11/2009 7:24:54 PM

I'll qualify that then. In the several dozen top-tier 3d iPhone games I've played (and many I quite enjoy), geometry is not the strong suit. I've yet to see a 3d title that has any distance rendering without popup issues. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

11/12/2009 3:07:24 AM

Actually I had issue with the "very noticeable" part too. Maybe it's because it's just not something I make it a habit to look for, but I've never noticed anything like what you've described on any of the 3D games I've played. Then again, I'm on a 3GS so that probably has a lot to do with it. I still find it amusing that you're comparing the latest hardware from MS with hardware from and software designed for year old technology. Of course it's going to be better. The question is how much better, and if that's going to matter in how much fun the games are.

11/12/2009 11:22:36 AM

i don't think the current hardware in the 3GS has anything on the nvidia tegra.

11/12/2009 11:37:56 AM

^^I made the comparison because our resident Apple fanboy Golovko claimed there would be no difference in the 3GS and the Zune in terms of 3d gaming capabilities.

And the 3GS is marginally better than the 3G. It still has the same architectural limitations

11/12/2009 12:13:08 PM

^are you that obtuse?

the hardware in a 3GS is not 'marginally better' than a 3G, we've been over this already more than once. Instead of getting your facts off of Microsoft propaganda leaflets that I no doubt circulate your offices day in and day out...get your facts straight.

There are no games that i've seen that take advantage of the 3GS hardware so there is nothing to compare to...

Second...I'm not an Apple fanboy. you throw that around like you even know what a fanboy is...take a look at yourself about Microsoft and THAT is the definition of fanboy. Sure I like some apple products (ones that I own at least) and some Microsoft products (that I own) but i don't say one product is better unless it actually IS better and based off of my own use of these products. I can also see the good and the bad in Apple products. You on the other hand think anything Microsoft is a gift from God and will save all of man kind. So keep that lame-ass fanboy shit to yourself.

last...nobody gives a shit about project gotham racing. That shit was dated, dumb, and boring on Xbox and I regret having wasted any money on the franchise. When a better racing game can demonstrate the limitations limitless possibilities of your ZuneHD then i'd be interested.

Also I can't call you from my ZuneHD to tell you how much of a Microsoft fanboy you are so again, its lacking in features.

[Edited on November 12, 2009 at 12:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/12/2009 12:58:16 PM

^hahahah what a fanboy. There are tons of games that take full advantage of the 3GS.

Selective memory must be awesome to have

11/12/2009 1:48:16 PM

I dont think theres any question that the ZuneHD has better hardware and a better development platform. The problem is its not a phone and i dont want to carry around another device.

11/12/2009 1:50:39 PM

uh, it's not a phone, nor is it meant to be a phone.

people carry around PSP's, PMP's and portable/vehicle GPS devices around all the time.

[Edited on November 12, 2009 at 1:55 PM. Reason : ,]

11/12/2009 1:54:41 PM

Quote :

"^hahahah what a fanboy. There are tons of games that take full advantage of the 3GS. "

in terms of more processing power, sure. But I have yet to play a game that takes advantage of the 3GS new graphics capabilities. EA and others like them said they'd incorporate an options menu that lets you turn on the advanced rendering if you have a 3GS vs. only developing games that will only run on a 3GS. Thats the type of games I'm talking about. If they exist I have't downloaded any yet.

Quote :

"people carry around PSP's, PMP's and portable/vehicle GPS devices around all the time."

nobody that I know because I don't hang out with 12 year olds, carry around PSP's. As far as GPS, I know plenty of people that have portable GPS units but not one of them carry it around with them and I have a hard time thinking of anyone that does. This is why its essential to have an all-in-one device.

[Edited on November 12, 2009 at 2:33 PM. Reason : ,]

11/12/2009 2:30:45 PM

Do you seriously believe the iPhone's IGP can hang with Tegra?

11/12/2009 2:50:22 PM

I'm not saying that at all. I'm simply saying that comparing a game on any new hardware to a game on old hardware is stupid. Saying it sucks beacuse it has slow frame rates, experiences pop etc means nothing if the 3GS has a better GPU and we have yet to see games take full advantage of that.

11/12/2009 3:08:03 PM

Apple OS had a hard time keeping up on the old hardware, they need all that speed just to run the OS on the 3GS amirite? hehe.

as for the PSP/PMP/GPS/eBookreader/whatever small device... a simple ride on the metro in DC or NYC or any other metropolitan area, or on an airplane, will show you that all these devices are quite prevalent whether you or your close circle of friends use them or not.

11/12/2009 3:47:29 PM

The Zune is newer hardware than the 3GS, so your argument makes no sense.

And the only difference between a hybrid game (3G/3GS) and a 3GS only game is in the textures. That we haven't seen yet.

But in terms of raw potential, the SGX535 in the iPhone 3GS can push 28M triangles per second. The Tegra APX can push 47M triangles per second on the GPU ARM11 (dual core) alone (keep in mind the Zune also has an ARM7 GPU and 6 other processors to offload A/V and image processing.

There's definitely tradeoffs (the ARM Cortex A8 in the iPhone is a faster single-threaded CPU, the zune uses multi-core and multi-processor approaches), but if you want to look at the long tail possibilities, the zune has more capable hardware and a much better development environment with XNA for game development.

11/12/2009 3:54:45 PM

Why are you guys comparing the iphone to a zune?

Discussion should be limited to Ipod vs Zune, in which case apple loses handily.

11/12/2009 3:58:11 PM

exactly why the zune hd is reviewed as a PMP device and not a phone.

11/12/2009 4:36:00 PM

I CAN'T GET DIAL TONE ON THIS PIECE OF SHIT

[Edited on November 12, 2009 at 4:39 PM. Reason : !!!!!!1]

11/12/2009 4:38:56 PM

the reason we're comparing it to the iphone is because as cool as the zune is, theres no reason for me to have it + my iphone. My desire to only have 1 device in my pocket trumps my desire for the Zune's features.

11/12/2009 4:53:20 PM

I love how you guys are talking about the hardware in a Zune HD like it's gonna matter to the average consumer. OMG IT HAS MORE JIGGAHERTZ AND OPTI-PIXELZ. Yes it's great that it has better specs, but that isn't going to make it more attractive to a single damn person. Get several killer apps on it to drive sales, then come back.

11/12/2009 5:57:19 PM

^the only reason we're talking about it is because of Golovko insisting the iPhone/iPod somehow has better/more capability as a PMP/Gaming device.

And it does matter to the consumer because the differences in hardware allow for a much better experience. IE background processes, snappier UI, portable media center experiences, etc.

11/12/2009 9:01:07 PM

Quote :

"^the only reason we're talking about it is because of Golovko insisting the iPhone/iPod somehow has better/more capability as a PMP/Gaming device."

wrong again...sigh. I said the iPhone doesn't suck as you say it does because what you're saying is complete bullshit and I would know because I've played quite a few 3d games on the damn thing. I didn't say the iPhone was better than the Zune in terms of graphical capabilities. I did say the iPhone makes for a better all-in-one device though...and if i didn't say that before i'm saying it now.

11/12/2009 9:06:16 PM

^ Well, that's all very true, and I think it's great to see these capabilities being pushed forward. But the sales figures for these devices tend to suggest that the consumer actually doesn't care that much right now. but i do agree that the competition is good all around.

11/12/2009 9:07:50 PM

^^

Quote :

"I've got SimCity, Sims 3, Real Racing, all the X-Plane games. They all seem to be 'modern' to me. SimCity is quite impressive and that came out a long ass time ago. But I guess you can't play PGR so its obviously not impressive enough. None of these games are 'slodgy', slow or basic. They're all very quick to load and very responsive. Graphics are fantastic. (and this isn't even on the 3GS). You want to talk about game quality? PGR is not something to bring to the table."

The 3G has graphic capability somewhere between a PS1 and a PS2.
The 3GS has graphic capability just about on par with the PS2 (it has a better fill rate and shaders)

A game with the same TITLE as a modern game doesn't make it a modern game. Sims3, Real Racing and X-Plane are all absolute shadows of the console/PC equivalents. Compare every EA game on the iPhone to it's nextgen/PC equivalent. They aren't anywhere close to the same game, and certainly not "modern".

That was my point. The Zune has the HARDWARE capability to produce modern games. The iPhone 3G doesn't, the 3GS only barely could scrape by if the dedicated games every come out for it (which they likely won't from any major studios anytime soon)

11/12/2009 9:33:49 PM

I want the Zune HD because Zune software is comically superior to iTunes when it comes to music. Even the music player software itself makes itunes look decidedly 1997. I just can't fathom how anybody would put up with a music setup that requires them to pay money every time they want a song. I could careless about games and fifty thousand apps that I have to go out of my way to incorporate into my daily life.

The UI, feel of the device, and the way it interacts with the Zune player feels crisp and modern. By contrast, I avoid hooking up my iphone to my PC as often as possible because I don't want to be prompted to download the latest bundle of itunes/safari/whothefuckcares and then sit there and stare off into space as iTunes itself attempts to gather up the vast amount of resources it apparently needs to sync with my phone.

My only gripe with Microsoft is that the Zune/Windows7 and XboxLive integration into a unified communication and entertainment platform hasn't really happened. Why is xbox live marketplace and gamer communication tools not available on Windows 7? Alternately, why is it taking so long to allow Zune marketplace access on xbox live?

11/13/2009 1:46:05 AM

^i have a 30gb and feel the same way, zune 4.0 is pretty nice, itunes still looks like shit.

11/13/2009 10:43:58 AM

^^ I completely agree. I posted way back in this thread that microsoft has a huge opportunity to come out with a unified media platform accross all their devices. Being able to sync and control all your microsoft devices from each of the other devices would be great, but if they really wanted to devistate itunes, they'd make the zune able to download songs wherever you are if you have the zune subscription service. This would mean making it a phone.

The goal here being that you have 1 mobile device that can control everything you have at home and access whatever content you want no matter where you are.

Microsoft has always been one step behind apple and other companies when it comes to consumer gadgets, but the step is always much much better than what those companies offered (see zune ui, zune subscription, xbox/xbox360, etc...). The problem is the next step for the zune (making it into a phone) is blindingly obvious and microsoft seems to have no plans for it.

I just dont understand this attitude of "wow zune hd is really good, why do you guys want it to be a phone too?" The market segment for PMPs is everyone who doesn't have a smartphone even though they could afford to buy one.

11/13/2009 11:07:47 AM

Quote :

"I just can't fathom how anybody would put up with a music setup that requires them to pay money every time they want a song. I could careless about games and fifty thousand apps that I have to go out of my way to incorporate into my daily life."

Um, what makes you think that you have to pay money for every song you want? If you have MP3s or other music files that you want added to your iTunes or iPod/iPhone library, just drag them in. That doesn't cost you anything.

Also, your logic about "incorporating" apps into your life makes no sense. If you need or want a tool to do X, you'll find a tool that does X. By your logic, why bother downloading or installing new software on your computer, just because you have to go find it to download?

11/13/2009 11:24:53 AM

Quote :

"I just can't fathom how anybody would put up with a music setup that requires them to pay money every time they want a song. I could careless about games and fifty thousand apps that I have to go out of my way to incorporate into my daily life"

This is in no way directed towards zune marketplace vs. itunes but its my understanding that paying for music is not a new concept and it existed before napster and torrenting? I could be mistaken though...I've never bought CD's so maybe bestbuy was just giving them away for free in the 90's *shrug*

Quote :

"My only gripe with Microsoft is that the Zune/Windows7 and XboxLive integration into a unified communication and entertainment platform hasn't really happened. Why is xbox live marketplace and gamer communication tools not available on Windows 7? Alternately, why is it taking so long to allow Zune marketplace access on xbox live?"

mark your calendar, November 17th is when the new xbox live additions (Facebook, twitter, last.fm, and ZUNE marketplace) go live. I'm stoked because the Zune marketplace looks great and it has instant on up to 1080p. But you should probably buy an xbox to see that

Quote :

"Microsoft has always been one step behind apple and other companies when it comes to consumer gadgets, but the step is always much much better than what those companies offered"

umm what? Thats definitely a matter of personal opinion. In terms of OS they've been several steps behind and no they weren't better steps. Now with Windows 7 the experience is just as enjoyable as Mac OS X (not better) and for being a software giant it shouldn't have taken this long. The whole Xbox vs. PS3 thing is also a matter of personal opinion although my opinion is the xbox is better because it has much more to offer and makes the online experience great. Pre-Zune HD was well LOL...so that was definitely not better than the competition.

The Xbox vs. PS3 argument reminds me of this thread.

Quote :

"The 3G has graphic capability somewhere between a PS1 and a PS2. The 3GS has graphic capability just about on par with the PS2 (it has a better fill rate and shaders) A game with the same TITLE as a modern game doesn't make it a modern game. Sims3, Real Racing and X-Plane are all absolute shadows of the console/PC equivalents. Compare every EA game on the iPhone to it's nextgen/PC equivalent. They aren't anywhere close to the same game, and certainly not "modern". That was my point. The Zune has the HARDWARE capability to produce modern games. The iPhone 3G doesn't, the 3GS only barely could scrape by if the dedicated games every come out for it (which they likely won't from any major studios anytime soon)"

Have you played any of these games? no. Sims 3 is definitely NOT as you say 'a absolute shadow' of a PC equivalent. It might not have the full blown feature set but thats because its a MOBILE platform. Just like Civilization Revolution is nothing like Civ IV on PC in terms of features but it was designed for console and now mobile gaming.

SimCity is fantastic and has the same look and feel as the PC version just not the same screen resolution obviously but i think you could have figured that out on your own. It is by far one of the most impressive implementations of a PC title on a mobile platform.

X-Plane or any other flight simulator will never be the same on a mobile device as it is on a PC for obvious reasons...even your Zune HD won't have anything as sophisticated as the PC version so your whole argument is pointless.

These titles are all very pleasing graphically and fun...so what is your point again?

[Edited on November 13, 2009 at 12:43 PM. Reason : .]

11/13/2009 12:29:48 PM