Quote :

"To answer your question with a question: how come when the state deregulated to allow advertising in the optometry business did consumer prices fall? "

I'm not an expert on the optometry business, I'm afraid I lack the expertise to answer your extremely specific question. An expertise you apparently developed the moment you absorbed some factoid about regulations and optometry.

Quote :

"The answer is quite obvious to everyone but yourself: advertising allowed consumers to effortlessly discover alternative competitors and prices. Capitalist competition requires the distribution of market information, a process carried out by advertising."

Loneshark. Coca Cola advertisements do absolutely nothing of what you just described advertisements as doing. They never reveal the price or any kind of relevant information whatsoever, just a cascade of emotionally manipulative sound and imagery. You have to be fucking kidding me on this one. Try for once to actually look at the real world on this and not just repeat the theoretical, ideal scenario.


[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 1:17 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2011 1:15:31 PM

Reposting since nobody reads the last post on a page:

Quote :

"Capitalist competition requires the distribution of market information, a process carried out by advertising. You don't need to brainwash people into liking Coca-cola, otherwise known as sugar-water."

7/18/2011 1:16:59 PM

Assymetric information? What's that?

7/18/2011 1:40:28 PM

Quote :

"Assymetric information? What's that?"

A condition of the real world, and not a condition of the 18th century economics that LS refuses to progress beyond

7/18/2011 1:47:12 PM

Quote :

"If you aren't being brainwashed into consuming what you consume, why do you think marketing is a 300 billion dollar a year business? Or did all those commercials featuring old people gleefully running across a beach in B&W lead you to objectively conclude that the featured heart medication was ideal for you?"

Do you make any distinction between products that are useless (coke) and products that are useful, make life better, or make work easier?

Based on what I'm seeing here, you guys think that humans are conditioned to think they want things that they wouldn't want otherwise. That is true, but it's not useful. I sometimes get the feeling that socialists want to revert to a primitive state where nothing but basic needs would be available, but everyone would be happy because they wouldn't know what they were missing. Or, do you imagine some system where only the good things would be produced?

[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 3:30 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2011 3:25:28 PM

Quote :

" Do you make any distinction between products that are useless (coke) and products that are useful, make life better, or make work easier?"

You mean like fucking medicine? The example I actually used?

7/18/2011 3:46:01 PM

I'd actually argue that many of the prescription drugs advertised on television cause more harm than good, but that's another discussion for another time.

I guess I'm trying to delve deeper into your core philosophy here. Do you think marketing on the whole is bad, or what?

7/18/2011 3:49:18 PM

Depends, are you talking about marketing as it actually occurs in the real world or the fantasy version that occurs inside the heads of Capitalists?

7/18/2011 3:50:58 PM

I'm talking about marketing, the process of familiarizing target demographics with your product/service, in hopes that they will purchase that product/service. I understand that you have a problem with dishonest marketing.

7/18/2011 3:54:59 PM

Quote :

"They never reveal the price or any kind of relevant information whatsoever, just a cascade of emotionally manipulative sound and imagery. Try for once to actually look at the real world on this and not just repeat the theoretical, ideal scenario."

So it is your assertion that advertising never spreads market information? Are you really suggesting no one has ever slapped a price on their commercial?

This is very odd. You assert that advertising only exists to brainwash. I point out that it often spreads useful information and in at least one documented case resulted in very real consumers benefits. Then, based upon one company's commercials, you yet again assert commercials spread no useful information. Well, what the hell? I admit there are quite a few advertising campaigns spreading nothing more than brand propaganda, George Bush won two elections after-all. But to assert advertising as a whole is nothing ever but an attempt at brainwashing is beyond stupidity.

The issue here, yet again, is elitism. You conclude others are too stupid not to be brainwashed by a stupid TV commercial. Well, I don't see it. I have never been brainwashed by a TV commercial and I do not consider myself smarter than the rest of humanity. Which TV commercial was it that managed to brainwash you into buying a product you didn't want?

7/18/2011 3:56:50 PM

Let me put it this way: The incentive in a free market is to get consumers to consume your product. Whether you are honest and include useful information is entirely incidental to that goal. In fact, the incentive is to lie when you can get away with it, or in most cases avoid meaningful information altogether. That's how a commercial for heart medication can consist entirely of heart-warming scenes of grandpa enjoying life and a list of possible side effects (required by law).

If you want truthful, accurate information about a product, I don't know why you would trust the company itself, as it has a massive incentive to mislead, distract, or just plain lie.

7/18/2011 4:03:08 PM

Ahaha Loneshark comon, now you're just trying to add a bunch of "only"'s to my assertions to make them seem like outrageous blanket statements. You can do better than that.

Quote :

"The issue here, yet again, is elitism. You conclude others are too stupid not to be brainwashed by a stupid TV commercial. Well, I don't see it. I have never been brainwashed by a TV commercial and I do not consider myself smarter than the rest of humanity. Which TV commercial was it that managed to brainwash you into buying a product you didn't want?"

Loneshark, do you think US companies would spend 300 billion dollars a year on marketing if it didn't work?

Also I don't think you understand what brainwashing is. If you or I knew the exact ways we'd been brainwashed, would it be brainwashing? I can tell you when I was a kid I wanted all kinds of stupid toys, happy meals, etc and those desires didn't pop out of thin air. But really, as an adult, you can't exactly say "I queried my own mind, and found it to be uninfluenced by brainwashing." and not expect to be laughed at.


I mean seriously, let's recap:

"People are susceptible to brainwashing." = Elitism

"I am unbrainwashable." = Loneshark, non-Elitist


[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 4:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/18/2011 4:03:51 PM

Quote :

"I do not consider myself smarter than the rest of humanity."

7/18/2011 4:05:11 PM

Quote :

"Let me put it this way: The incentive in a free market is to get consumers to consume your product. Whether you are honest and include useful information is entirely incidental to that goal. In fact, the incentive is to lie when you can get away with it, or in most cases avoid meaningful information altogether. That's how a commercial for heart medication can consist entirely of heart-warming scenes of grandpa enjoying life and a list of possible side effects (required by law). If you want truthful, accurate information about a product, I don't know why you would trust the company itself, as it has a massive incentive to mislead, distract, or just plain lie."

Only an idiot buys a product after seeing a commercial, at least without doing additional research. I think your problem is with humanity itself, not capitalism.

I don't know what point you're making. People lie and do bad things. The market punishes this behavior, because information is becoming more symmetrical. If I see a commercial that seems suspect, I can pull out my phone and see if it's bullshit or the real deal. That wasn't possible 40 years ago. The market has actually made information more free and accessible than ever before.

[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 4:26 PM. Reason : ]

7/18/2011 4:22:36 PM

Quote :

"Loneshark, do you think US companies would spend 300 billion dollars a year on marketing if it didn't work? "

I already explained that it does indeed work to spread information and ideas. But the results in no way rise to the term "brainwashing".

To be brainwashing requires suppressing competing view-points. A coke commercial followed five minutes later by a pepsi commercial then five minutes later by a brita water filter commercial comes no-where-close to satisfying this definition.

[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 5:14 PM. Reason : .,.]

7/18/2011 5:12:53 PM

Quote :

"If I see a commercial that seems suspect, I can pull out my phone and see if it's bullshit or the real deal."

And you do that, and get a ton of links to About.com or Yahoo! Answers or other sites put out there to get hits. Just do a search for Herbalife. The layperson still can't discern which links about it are BS and which aren't. Come on now, with the increase in information, you certainly CAN have a good chance of finding the answer, but the information is by no means symmetrical until you build a search engine that searches based not on hits but reputability. With the Herbalife example, you can see that, if anything, the information is just as if not more assymetrical. To think otherwise is a very Whiggish, overly optimistic view of technology.

Do you really think the information rising to the top is the most trustworthy information? Do you also think Transformers was universally a great movie because it made a ton of cash.

I have no idea how this would ever play into public policy. I am of the belief that it should encourage greater societal attention payed to information literacy (and I say this in a general sense, not in a "mandatory schooling" sense). But, yeah, for people who think they're savvy and smart, information might be getting more symmetrical, but for the average person who doesn't know how a Google search works, it isn't.

But then again, fuck those idiots. Just like how they shouldn't vote either, right?

[Edited on July 18, 2011 at 5:54 PM. Reason : x]

7/18/2011 5:51:26 PM

Quote :

"I think your problem is with humanity itself, not capitalism."

Couldn't have said it better.

ITT, the socialists decry capitalists for deceiving people they claim will be smart enough with the "right" education to make better decisions.

No really...they are saying people are both intelligent and stupid at the same time.

7/18/2011 6:06:47 PM

Quote :

"ITT, the socialists decry capitalists for deceiving people they claim will be smart enough with the "right" education to make better decisions."

Chance you haven't been reading the thread (or anything else for that matter it would seem). People who are systematically mis- or under-educated are a lot different than people offered universal, generally useful education. People in our society are not taught intellectual self-defense as a part of their education. Take you, for instance: utterly helpless in every way, swayed by whatever propaganda justifies your lifestyle in your mind, whether consistent or not, no matter the absurd conclusions it leads you to (as you never draw those conclusions it would seem).

Human nature is either nothing intrinsically or it's everything culturally realizable; that being said, human nature is not capitalist nature, and people raised under a feudal life, or proto-communist, or whatever, will end up with a much different viewpoint on life than the other. Different patterns of thought are habit, different values prevalent, different conclusions assumed.

Quote :

"To be brainwashing requires suppressing competing view-points. A coke commercial followed five minutes later by a pepsi commercial then five minutes later by a brita water filter commercial comes no-where-close to satisfying this definition."

Hahaha so counter-poised yet equally useless propaganda washes itself out because of conflicts internal to those messages? Sometimes I have a tough time believing you believe the things you say.

Quote :

"Only an idiot buys a product after seeing a commercial, at least without doing additional research. I think your problem is with humanity itself, not capitalism."

Your claim is about how humans trained and raised under capitalism behave. Again, you have no real claim to it being a general feature of humankind that's indefeasible.

Quote :

""People are susceptible to brainwashing." = Elitism "I am unbrainwashable." = Loneshark, non-Elitist"

lol

Quote :

"This is very odd. You assert that advertising only exists to brainwash. I point out that it often spreads useful information and in at least one documented case resulted in very real consumers benefits. Then, based upon one company's commercials, you yet again assert commercials spread no useful information. Well, what the hell? I admit there are quite a few advertising campaigns spreading nothing more than brand propaganda, George Bush won two elections after-all. But to assert advertising as a whole is nothing ever but an attempt at brainwashing is beyond stupidity. "

Is there any fucking end to your stoogery? It's really exhausting to have to drag you through every yard of common sense.

7/19/2011 4:11:59 AM

Quote :

"People who are systematically mis- or under-educated are a lot different than people offered universal, generally useful education."

Oh cool, back to platitudes again. Who are the people that are mis or under educated in our current system because I don't believe you've defined it specifically yet. As best I can tell, it's...everybody.

Quote :

"People in our society are not taught intellectual self-defense as a part of their education."

To what ends? So they can go write papers on the DCM space? People in this country have been getting by spectacularly fine for decades if what you're claiming is true.

Quote :

"swayed by whatever propaganda justifies your lifestyle in your mind"

I'm barely exposed to propaganda at all so this can hardly be the cause of how I chose to live my life.

Quote :

"human nature is not capitalist nature,"

I fail to see how it isn't. If anything people are on a bell curve from the most evil to the most giving. I imagine the people that sit in the thick of the bell are probably self interested when it benefits them and group interested....when it benefits them.

Quote :

"Is there any fucking end to your stoogery?"

Far exceeded only by your own?

7/19/2011 7:05:16 AM

Quote :

"Only an idiot buys a product after seeing a commercial, at least without doing additional research. I think your problem is with humanity itself, not capitalism."

Not really. Psychological studies have shown that people of all intelligences have their biases and desires subtly manipulated by commercials. Thinking yourself to be too smart to fall for that only makes you more susceptible.

Quote :

"I don't know what point you're making. People lie and do bad things. The market punishes this behavior, because information is becoming more symmetrical."

Every single member of the market wants to lie and manipulate. You don't even have to lie, they can go for strictly emotional appeals that manipulate you on a deeper level.

Quote :

" If I see a commercial that seems suspect, I can pull out my phone and see if it's bullshit or the real deal. That wasn't possible 40 years ago. The market has actually made information more free and accessible than ever before."

Yes, go online and sift through advertisement-laden pages, read past legions of fake reviews written by paid shills, a bunch of reviews by people rationalizing a buying decision they already made, maybe find a few bad ones by people who actually cared enough to go online about it. Information existing does not equal information symmetry. The fact that you have to sift through it to get something valuable is itself a point of assymetry, it is a lot easier to tell a lie than to prove a lie wrong.

7/19/2011 11:15:01 AM

Quote :

"I'm barely exposed to propaganda at all so this can hardly be the cause of how I chose to live my life."

Lol seriously, Chance, are you really this oblivious?

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 11:18 AM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 11:17:17 AM

Quote :

"Not really. Psychological studies have shown that people of all intelligences have their biases and desires subtly manipulated by commercials."

So what? That doesn't count as brainwashing. I met my state representative a week ago, he seemed like a nice person and I am more likely to vote for him because of it. Does that make me brainwashed? Heck no.

I see a coke commercial, it gives me a favorable outlook of the product, I am more likely to try it, but this isn't brainwashing. If I try it and don't like it or don't find it worth the money, I stop buying it. No amount of advertising is going to turn sewage into my favorite drink.

7/19/2011 11:25:55 AM

A tv commercial that consists of nothing but images and sounds and emotional narratives is not the same thing as having a conversation with a representative. If those tv commercials, that consist entirely of emotional affect, had no bearing on whether a customer bought the product or not, why do they keep doing them, loneshark? Is every single Coca Cola commercial since the 70's actually a failure and they've been selling so well because of Coke's inherent goodness? Do companies pay millions of dollars for Superbowl slots in order to air completely non-information commercials just for fun?

Are you really so full of yourself that you think you're completely uninfluenced by those emotional appeals in commercials (option 1)? That advertisers are just wasting their time and money (option 2)? Or do you think you're better than everyone else in this regard (option 3)?

Which is it?

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 11:33 AM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 11:33:21 AM

Fine, let me yet again say it:

"A tv commercial that consists of nothing but images and sounds and emotional narratives is not the same thing as having a conversation with a representative"
Wrong, they are exactly the same thing. I saw a new product commercial a week ago, it seemed like a nice product and I am more likely to try it because of it. Does that make me brainwashed? Heck no.

7/19/2011 11:40:13 AM

What about when the commercial has nothing to do with the product at all. What if the commercial consists of a polar bear drinking a soft drink and being satisfied, then going for a swim, followed by a logo? Does that make you more likely to purchase the product after viewing?

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 11:43 AM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 11:41:37 AM

Sure, just as when I attend a political rally and the speaker speaks nothing but platitudes and wraps himself in the flag of whatever cause I support (Ron Paul, woo! End the Wars!). Does not make me brainwashed. I still retain all the objections I have to Ron Paul, his idiotic views on the monetary system.

After the coke commercial I similarly still retain all the objection I have to coke, namely my sensitive teeth and my aversion to the cost.

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 11:48 AM. Reason : .,.]

7/19/2011 11:47:10 AM

Shotgun advertising like coke commercials plays on emotions because idiots make choices based on emotional appeals.

shotgun advertising for coke is smart because the goal is to expose as many possible eyes to coke.

shotgun advertising for politicians is smart because the goal is to use talking points to emotionally charge your base.

shotgun advertising for cars is fucking awful because even idiots spend time researching and test driving cars. They still do it because advertisers are either A) morons or B) lazy, but most businesses dont hold them to any metrics and write them off as a cost of doing business.

7/19/2011 12:00:54 PM

Quote :

" After the coke commercial I similarly still retain all the objection I have to coke, namely my sensitive teeth and my aversion to the cost."

So if these emotionally manipulative commercials, which convey no useful information, ultimately have no effect on consumers, then why are companies spending a shitload of money on them? You're really going out of your way to avoid any chance of admitting that maybe, just maybe, your decisions as a consumer are not always entirely rational. Isn't the end-product of brainwashing making somebody believe or act a certain way without them being aware of their conditioning?

Quote :

"shotgun advertising for cars is fucking awful because even idiots spend time researching and test driving cars. They still do it because advertisers are either A) morons or B) lazy, but most businesses dont hold them to any metrics and write them off as a cost of doing business."

or C) it increases profits

Companies generally do not play it fast and loose with profits as you suggest in B). I recall a study in particular where a certain chocolate bar manufacturer, I think Nestle, decided that their brand was well-enough established that they could cut advertising and not lose market share. Almost overnight they started losing customers, that is people who were formerly patrons of Nestle were now consuming less of it for no discernible reason other than the fact that it was no longer being pounded into their heads to consume more. As I recall there was even a slight dip in overall consumption of chocolate bars, which would mean they weren't even switching to other brands, but instead that their desire for chocolate bars was itself heightened by the prevalence of the advertising.


Here's another example: http://www.globalink.org/en/advertising.shtml

It's been shown, over and over again, that bans on cigarette advertising lead to a reduction in sales. They're still on the counter, you still see people smoking them everywhere, people are just as aware of cigarettes as ever. However, in the absence of advertising, demand dropped as much as 5%. That's a pretty strong indication that these ads don't just inform you of which products are good, but creates the desire itself where there otherwise wouldn't be one.



[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 12:32 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 12:23:36 PM

Quote :

"Are you really so full of yourself that you think you're completely uninfluenced by those emotional appeals in commercials (option 1)? That advertisers are just wasting their time and money (option 2)? Or do you think you're better than everyone else in this regard (option 3)? "

Or, advertising has other purposes than brainwashing people into liking something they don't like (I know, it's hard for you to imagine people liking things without being told by someone else they need to like it). For example, all over the web, you'll see ads for Rackspace. I have no opinion on Rackspace. I don't like them, I don't dislike them, I literally have no opinion. But when my boss comes to me and says we need to look for a managed hosting provider for something, I'll be hitting up Rackspace's site to see what they have to offer. They haven't brainwashed me, I still don't have an opinion on them but what they have done is made me aware of who they are and what they do. That doesn't seem to me like a waste of money.

7/19/2011 12:32:43 PM

Quote :

"They haven't brainwashed me, I still don't have an opinion on them but what they have done is made me aware of who they are and what they do. That doesn't seem to me like a waste of money."

As I pointed out with an edit above, there are examples (such as cigarettes) where a reduction of advertising leads to a reduction of sales of cigarettes in general. That isn't a case of people just not being familiar with cigarette brands, or the existence of cigarettes at all, that's just about the best indication you can get that the advertising creates the desire itself.

Quote :

"Or, advertising has other purposes than brainwashing people into liking something they don't like (I know, it's hard for you to imagine people liking things without being told by someone else they need to like it)."

The purpose of advertising is to sell the product. Name recognition is one way, but companies are just as interested in emotionally manipulating you to desire their product even if you wouldn't like it anyway. If anything, that's the ideal, since name recognition isn't useful if your customer isn't even interested in the generic product. Compelling you to have new thoughts, behaviors, and desires in a way that you aren't even aware that you're being manipulated as such, sounds an awful lot like brainwashing.


[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 12:34:40 PM

You guys seem to be taking great offense at the idea that you might be susceptible to powers of suggestion and manipulation, like all human beings on planet Earth.

7/19/2011 12:40:33 PM

Quote :

"or C) it increases profits"

wrong.

Quote :

"I recall a study in particular where a certain chocolate bar manufacturer, I think Nestle, decided that their brand was well-enough established that they could cut advertising and not lose market share"

right. Those guys are smart. They realized advertising was a waste of money and did not increae profits. The guys who are advertising with shitty ads (in my example car companies) are idiots wasting money

Another good example is amazon. They have very little marketting and advertising and used the saving to offer free shipping left and right which is far far better for attracting consumers.

Quote :

" However, in the absence of advertising, demand dropped as much as 5%. That's a pretty strong indication that these ads don't just inform you of which products are good, but creates the desire itself where there otherwise wouldn't be one. "

Just like with the chocolate bars this is most likely a reaction to health concerns rather than advertising.

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 1:10 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 1:04:26 PM

I think we're just laughing at the fact that you and McDanger seem to think you're above it all, when you're really just products of the exact same system, making feeble attempts to bite the hand that feeds, but not making a compelling case for how things should operate or how that change would ever come about.

Or maybe you're admitting that you're just as dumb as anyone else. Again, I think you're just a cynic. You look around and see people that are, for the most, very unintelligent. I see the same thing, but when looking for solutions, I don't hold my breath for some worker's revolution bullshit to take place, because it's never going to happen.

7/19/2011 1:18:41 PM

Quote :

"right. Those guys are smart. They realized advertising was a waste of money and did not increae profits. The guys who are advertising with shitty ads (in my example car companies) are idiots wasting money"

You didn't read the rest of it. They lost customers almost immediately. Please read everything I write before shooting from the hip.

Quote :

" Just like with the chocolate bars this is most likely a reaction to health concerns rather than advertising. "

Uh, okay... So it's just coincidence that the sales dropped 5% immediately after the ad bans? Multiple ad bans, in multiple countries, years a part from each other. In each of these countries, at that point in time, people happened to learn about the bad health effects at the same time as the ban. And this is likely because...you say so.

Quote :

"I think we're just laughing at the fact that you and McDanger seem to think you're above it all, when you're really just products of the exact same system, making feeble attempts to bite the hand that feeds, but not making a compelling case for how things should operate or how that change would ever come about. "

I don't think either of us have said that we're above the influence of advertising and manipulation. By your logic, somebody pointing at North Korea and saying "those people are brainwashed" would be cause to point the finger at them and say "HAH! You think you're above it!"

Pointing out that other people are brainwashed does not imply that you think you are yourself immune to other forms of brainwashing. The thing is, I openly admit I'm a human with human flaws and not 100% rational all the time. You guys seem to be taking great offense that I'd imply you guys are too. Maybe it's all that "Have it your way" advertising that's convinced you guys that your most precious exercise of reasoning is choosing a brand.

All that other nonsense of yours is some kind of bizarre projection, I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about workers revolutions. Try to stay on topic.


[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM. Reason : .]

7/19/2011 1:23:58 PM

Brainwashing just isn't the correct term to use here. Conditioning is a lot more appropriate. Brainwashing suggests that patently false beliefs are imposed by marketing on the whole, which I don't believe is true. That's a lot different that a subtle manipulation of the audience's desires.

I recognize that all humans have flaws, myself included. Speaking of staying on topic, what does any of this have to do with socialism?

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 1:39 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2011 1:37:16 PM

Quote :

" I recognize that all humans have flaws, myself included. Speaking of staying on topic, what does any of this have to do with socialism?"

One of the central issues here is about human nature. Often capitalists point to cultural and behavioral results of capitalism in human nature (the behavioral results of the "conditioning" as you'd say) as timeless, essential parts of human nature. Thus capitalism, to them, appears to handle these shortcomings in nature (viewed as unchangeable) as opposed to actually creating those shortcomings.

7/19/2011 1:47:16 PM

Quote :

"Name recognition is one way, but companies are just as interested in emotionally manipulating you to desire their product even if you wouldn't like it anyway. If anything, that's the ideal, since name recognition isn't useful if your customer isn't even interested in the generic product. Compelling you to have new thoughts, behaviors, and desires in a way that you aren't even aware that you're being manipulated as such, sounds an awful lot like brainwashing."

All the emotional manipulation in the world means nothing if I'm not already interested in the generic product. For example, I don't like the taste of beer, never really have. No matter how many billions of commercials budweiser or any of the other manufactures run, no matter how many billions of dollars they spend, no matter how they try to emotionally manipulate me, showing me people having a grand old time while downing their bottles of beer, or "sexy" women fawning all over the guy that orders the "right" beer. It isn't once going to make me more inclined to buy their product.

7/19/2011 2:07:52 PM

Quote :

"Uh, okay... So it's just coincidence that the sales dropped 5% immediately after the ad bans? Multiple ad bans, in multiple countries, years a part from each other. In each of these countries, at that point in time, people happened to learn about the bad health effects at the same time as the ban. And this is likely because...you say so. "

if the advertisers did the study they probably straight lied about the sales reports. And even if they didnt, any kind of "cravings" created by the advertising raise sales across all brands instead of particular products.

7/19/2011 2:14:59 PM

Quote :

"One of the central issues here is about human nature. Often capitalists point to cultural and behavioral results of capitalism in human nature (the behavioral results of the "conditioning" as you'd say) as timeless, essential parts of human nature. Thus capitalism, to them, appears to handle these shortcomings in nature (viewed as unchangeable) as opposed to actually creating those shortcomings."

Humans being self-interested is not something that capitalism created. If humans weren't self-interested on the aggregate, we wouldn't be here today. You want tasty food. You want sex. You want to have fun and not be stressed all the time. You want to survive.

The fact is, humans have demonstrated this self-interested behavior for as long as human behavior has been recorded. You are not altruistic. I am not altruistic. No one will ever be genuinely altruistic, because everyone else that isn't altruistic could take advantage of the person that is. You're the main one looking out for yourself, with family coming in at a close second and friends a distant third. That's why constructing a system based on people working "for the greater good" isn't realistic. People don't give a shit about the greater good if it means they get the short end of the stick. No one likes being slighted. I'm not going to work my ass off for some lazy prick.

[Edited on July 19, 2011 at 2:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/19/2011 2:29:04 PM

Quote :

"So if these emotionally manipulative commercials, which convey no useful information, ultimately have no effect on consumers, then why are companies spending a shitload of money on them?...Isn't the end-product of brainwashing making somebody believe or act a certain way without them being aware of their conditioning?"

I said they have an effect. But that effect does not rise to the level of brainwashing. If I tell you the food at a local restaurant was good and you choose to eat there for lunch, that is not an example of brainwashing. It caused you to act a certain way, you might even forget later that I made the recommendation thus rendering you unaware of the conditioning. But brainwashing has a particular definition according to the internet: "Brainwashing is the attempt to change the thoughts and beliefs of another person against their will." If I hate coke then I am not going to be swayed by a coke commercial. If I hate a restaurant, then no amount of others proclaiming to love that same restaurant will sway me. My will dominates the message because absent the ability to suppress my will with violence no message can control me. It can influence me with information (true or false) or with emotional pulls, but without more to it than a television screen I can turn off or tune out at will, the message cannot control me.

7/19/2011 2:41:32 PM

Quote :

"No one will ever be genuinely altruistic"

i disagree. a human can be no more sure of its Nature than an ant could be of its own.

acting from self-interest is not absolute.

Quote :

"NEW YORK — A quick-thinking commuter saved a teenager who fell on the subway tracks by pushing him down into a furrow between the rails, allowing an approaching train to pass right over them, police said. An 18-year-old man had some kind of medical problem Tuesday and fell onto the tracks, which are a few feet below platform level, police said. Wesley Autrey saw him fall, jumped down onto the tracks after him and rolled with him into the rut between the rails as a southbound train was coming in. Autrey said he initially tried to pull the man up to the platform but had to decide whether he could get him up in time to avoid both of them getting hit. "I just chose to dive on top of him and pin him down and pin myself down," he said. The incident took place around 12:45 p.m. at the station at 137th Street and Broadway in Manhattan on the No. 1 subway line. Two cars of the train passed over the men before it came to a stop. Neither man was hit, police said, and Autrey, who had his two young daughters traveling with him, refused any medical attention. The rescued man, whose name had not been released, was taken to a local hospital."

7/19/2011 2:55:36 PM

Quote :

"Lol seriously, Chance, are you really this oblivious?"

Da fuck you talkin bout? You don't know shit about me.

Furthermore, if advertising is so mind bending, why don't companies put shit in a bag and convince us to buy it? Seriously, why doesn't Wendy's start offering a grilled cheese and convince us it is the tastiest shit we've ever eaten? The ingredients are certainly cheaper leading to better profits, why don't they do this?

Furthermore, it's about god damn time you start posting some links to these Nestle studies and the 5% overnight drop off in sales so we can examine the veracity of the claims for ourselves.

7/20/2011 5:52:43 PM

Quote :

"Seriously, why doesn't Wendy's start offering a grilled cheese and convince us it is the tastiest shit we've ever eaten? The ingredients are certainly cheaper leading to better profits, why don't they do this?"

lol couldn't have picked a worse example, seeing as how fast food is basically marketed shit in a bag

I'd like to see the NESTLE studies too, but Chance, let's be serious, do you honestly believe you're capable of reading data and coming to an intelligent conclusion?

7/20/2011 7:03:05 PM

I couldn't have picked a more perfect example.

And as for the study...well, I believe in capitalism so I'm retarded by default.

7/20/2011 9:53:00 PM

Quote :

"I believe in capitalism so I'm retarded by default."

No, the belief is simply religious. It's your unwillingness and subsequent inability to learn that makes you retarded, not any of your particular beliefs (which I would imagine to be fairly normal, rational conclusions given the low volume of mostly trash information that you manage to feed yourself)

[Edited on July 21, 2011 at 9:46 AM. Reason : .]

7/21/2011 9:46:44 AM

Quote :

"seeing as how fast food is basically marketed shit in a bag"

So what do you eat in your meals? Is it not some combination of meat, bread, potatoes, and vegetables? 'cause last I checked, that's what they serve at Wendy's. Oddly enough, a one and a half year old child I know which is unable to speak English and therefore immune to advertising loves Wendy's. Almost as if we are genetically predisposed to enjoy cooked meat, bread, and potatoes.

To quote a professor teaching economics at George Mason University:

Quote :

"Question: if corporations can so easily “manipulate customers needs and demands with advertising and marketing,” why doesn’t McDonald’s simply serve raw celery? Celery being much less costly for McDonald’s to buy than ground beef and chicken patties, a raw-celery-only menu at McDonald’s would slash that company’s costs. And with its nefarious facility at using “advertising and marketing” to hypnotize consumers into buying whatever it peddles (even “nasty killer foods”!), that fast-food behemoth will keep consumers spending as much on McCelery stalks as consumers now spend on Happy Meals and Egg McMuffins. McDonald’s profits will zoom upward!"

http://cafehayek.com/2011/07/mccelery.html

Quote :

"No, the belief is simply religious."

No more so than your belief system. With the exception our belief system makes logical sense, possessing a mathematical mechanism for resource allocation. Your system contains no such rational system, allocating resources instead based solely upon political whims.

[Edited on July 21, 2011 at 9:49 AM. Reason : .,.]

7/21/2011 9:46:52 AM

Nobody's arguing they can market literally anything; what they do market, however, is utter shit. They've managed to minimize the quality of what their customers will buy, subject to competition against each other.

Quote :

"So what do you eat in your meals? Is it not some combination of meat, bread, potatoes, and vegetables? 'cause last I checked, that's what they serve at Wendy's. Oddly enough, a one and a half year old child I know which is unable to speak English and therefore immune to advertising loves Wendy's. Almost as if we are genetically predisposed to enjoy cooked mean, bread, and potatoes. "

Oddly enough, a one and a half year old child would eat candy all day, every day because it tastes awesome to a child. What the hell is your point, that kids like fast food? Do you imagine that a kid's taste buds are really a firm guide to quality nutrition for them?

Here you are, Lonesnark, arguing that all potatoes, all meat is created equal. l m a o.

7/21/2011 9:49:18 AM

Quote :

"Here you are, Lonesnark, arguing that all potatoes, all meat is created equal. l m a o."

To your digestive tract they sure are all equal. Everything else is cultural conditioning.

7/21/2011 9:51:07 AM

Quote :

"To your digestive tract they sure are all equal. Everything else is cultural conditioning."

I'm really shocked at the level of magical thinking you exhibit. Let me get this straight: any two pieces of "meat" I receive are equivalent?

7/21/2011 9:52:20 AM

Accepting that some meats have higher fat contents than others, yes. Your body will break it down into proteins, fats, sugars, and various vitamins as present. As all animals require the same vitamins and minerals to survive, they all contain them.

7/21/2011 9:56:27 AM