Bloomberg:

Quote :

"The simple fact is, this building is private property, and the owners have a right to use the building as a house of worship, and the government has no right whatsoever to deny that right. And if it were tried, the courts would almost certainly strike it down as a violation of the U.S. Constitution. Whatever you may think of the proposed mosque and community center, lost in the heat of the debate has been a basic question: Should government attempt to deny private citizens the right to build a house of worship on private property based on their particular religion? That may happen in other countries, but we should never allow it to happen here."

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/03/mayor_bloomberg_on_mosque

8/3/2010 4:25:03 PM

Quote :

"not all big questions can—or should—be reduced to legal right. Living together as neighbors in a free and inescapably diverse society requires more skills than just knowing how to hire sharp lawyers."

8/3/2010 4:32:21 PM

I think people who don't live in NYC should shut the fuck up.

8/3/2010 5:18:41 PM

Quote :

"however, if you are incapable of understanding the other side of this argument, you are an obtuse dumbass, completely devoid of any rational thought."

The other side is entirely illegitimate, though. Their entire premise relies on the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. They can cry me a river-- maybe it will drain some of the water from their brains.

8/3/2010 5:42:55 PM

obligatory nobody reads the last post on the previous page post:

Quote :

"What am I supposed to be offended by here? What is offensive about a religious based community center, similar to the YMCA, being built near the WTC site? Just because some people that aren't related to this project, but happen to have been of the same religion, were terrorists?"

8/3/2010 5:54:40 PM

Only time will tell if that mosque ends up being truly moderate.

My guess is that they would have supported the Hamas flotilla that violated international law by attempting to break the Israeli blockage on Gaza.

8/3/2010 6:20:27 PM

The fact that they were going to call it Cordoba House should give some pause to their actual intentions. There is no legal or moral ground to stop them from building it, but there should be a real close eye kept on the place. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has had some pretty close ties to Hezbollah.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 6:34 PM. Reason : *]

8/3/2010 6:33:48 PM

Quote :

"The other side is entirely illegitimate, though. Their entire premise relies on the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. "

no its not.

their premise relies on the FACT that religious extremists killed thousands of people very near that location and that the same religion wants to build there. the relation offends them. surely you understand that. you dont have to agree but you dont have to stubbornly pretend you dont get it.

being offended is not a conscious decision. a person does not just decide to be offended. if I am being honest I can admit that I am offended by it. it does not feel appropriate to me. I cant really explain why, it just does not. but I am not going to argue their right to build. freedom of religion must be given to everyone.

8/3/2010 6:50:18 PM

Well shit. And I thought it was actual humans that flew those planes into the buildings. Come to find out...it was RELIGION.

Fuck.

8/3/2010 6:54:11 PM

Quote :

"a person does not just decide to be offended."

are you kidding me? liberals do it every day

8/3/2010 6:58:14 PM

when they are honestly and truly offended, they dont.

8/3/2010 7:01:19 PM

Quote :

"being offended is not a conscious decision. a person does not just decide to be offended. if I am being honest I can admit that I am offended by it. it does not feel appropriate to me. I cant really explain why, it just does not."

Of course you can explain why. It's the same thing that leads to any of the -isms that are rife throughout humanity. It's a cognitive bias: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases that instead of trying to work through like you would typically do, you accept because it's socially acceptable to hate muslims, especially for a self-proclaimed conservative.

Quote :

"The other side is entirely illegitimate, though. Their entire premise relies on the assumption that all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. They can cry me a river-- maybe it will drain some of the water from their brains. "

I think people understand the other side well enough, but the other side have not credibility. It would be like taking people who wanted to remove voting rights for women, or neo-nazis seriously. Sure, they are entitled to their emotional reactions to group X, but that doesn't mean that public policy should be based on their emotions.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 7:25 PM. Reason : ]

8/3/2010 7:23:19 PM

Religion is highly destructive and I oppose faith in almost all of its forms. I also value liberty, and if someone owns the property, they should be able to build whatever they want there. The religion of Islam did not collectively fly planes into the towers...some lunatics did. Sure, the religion itself probably fortified their justifications, but not every believer is culpable for the 9/11 attacks.

8/3/2010 7:24:56 PM

Quote :

"Only time will tell if that mosque ends up being truly moderate. My guess is that they would have supported the Hamas flotilla that violated international law by attempting to break the Israeli blockage on Gaza."

Do you have any evidence at all to support this kind of crap? And how does a community center support the flotilla? Do you go around question the motives of every other building be built in NYC? Is that new office park going to be run by anti-dentites?

Quote :

"their premise relies on the FACT that religious extremists killed thousands of people very near that location and that the same religion wants to build there. the relation offends them. surely you understand that. you dont have to agree but you dont have to stubbornly pretend you dont get it. being offended is not a conscious decision. a person does not just decide to be offended. if I am being honest I can admit that I am offended by it. it does not feel appropriate to me. I cant really explain why, it just does not. but I am not going to argue their right to build. freedom of religion must be given to everyone."

The religion isn't building there, just like the religion didn't blow up the WTC. If there is some relation of the WTC attackers and the builders in this case then lets discuss that, there might be some genuine reason to be upset there. I'm not going to argue whether being offended is a choice or not.

8/3/2010 7:30:54 PM

^

Quote :

"Do you have any evidence at all to support this kind of crap? And how does a community center support the flotilla? Do you go around question the motives of every other building be built in NYC? Is that new office park going to be run by anti-dentites?"

Quote :

"Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has had some pretty close ties to Hezbollah."

I can dig up the sources on that if you'd like.

8/3/2010 7:33:05 PM

How about you go ahead and do that for us.

8/3/2010 7:41:38 PM

^^yeah, I'd like to see those, but I'd also like to know how a community center is going to be supporting things like the Hamas flotilla.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 7:44 PM. Reason : ^^]

8/3/2010 7:44:07 PM

Raising money? Hello? McFly? The organization that runs the place can do all sorts of things politically and monetarily.

It's a moot tangential point right now because we're talking about hypotheticals.

^ & ^^ - Indulging in the tangent

I misspoke. It was the Muslim Brotherhood. Here's one article: http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=3453

Here's another that also speaks about his thoughts on 9/11: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,592906,00.html

Here's one that he did indeed support the flotilla: http://www.libertycentral.org/imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-behind-ground-zero-mosque-gaza-flotilla-2010-06

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 8:05 PM. Reason : *]

8/3/2010 7:58:59 PM

Quote :

"Of course you can explain why. It's the same thing that leads to any of the -isms that are rife throughout humanity. It's a cognitive bias: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases that instead of trying to work through like you would typically do, you accept because it's socially acceptable to hate muslims, especially for a self-proclaimed conservative."

I guess you missed the part where I said they should be allowed to build.

for the record, I dont hate all Muslims. I just hate the ones that want to murder my family and me in my sleep and the ones that support them.

Quote :

" I think people understand the other side well enough, but the other side have not credibility. It would be like taking people who wanted to remove voting rights for women, or neo-nazis seriously. Sure, they are entitled to their emotional reactions to group X, but that doesn't mean that public policy should be based on their emotions."

I dont disagree, except for the fact that there are a lot of people on here that cannot take their idealistic sunglasses off and see the world for what it is.

[Edited on August 3, 2010 at 8:55 PM. Reason : ..]

8/3/2010 8:53:57 PM

A list of the Muslims who got killed on 9/11.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

8/3/2010 10:56:51 PM

Quote :

"The fact that they were going to call it Cordoba House should give some pause to their actual intentions. "

"The $100 million Cordoba House takes its name from the medieval Spanish city where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in peace for 800 years."

-- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/03/AR2010080305390.html

I'm terrified.

Quote :

"I misspoke. It was the Muslim Brotherhood. Here's one article: http://www.analyst-network.com/article.php?art_id=3453 Here's another that also speaks about his thoughts on 9/11: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,592906,00.html Here's one that he did indeed support the flotilla: http://www.libertycentral.org/imam-feisal-abdul-rauf-behind-ground-zero-mosque-gaza-flotilla-2010-06"

Link 1: What is this shit? "Everything there is to know about Feisal Abdul Rauf, the wolf in sheep’s clothing behind the planned lower Manhattan mega-mosque." Was I supposed to continue reading this conspiracy theorist?

Link 2: You're actually citing a talking head on the Sean Hannity show. This is meta-punditry, here.

Link 3: Connects The Cordoba Project with William Ayers. Beautiful.


The aspect of your post that I most appreciate isn't necessarily your self-pwning citations; it's that even if I were to take all the information as truth, all we're left with is the fact that the imam's dad bumped into some shady people over his lifetime, and the imam's views on foreign policy are so radically pro-Islamofascism, that... they align with half the posters in TSB (I, too, supported the flotilla. I also acknowledge that the terrorists didn't form in a vacuum ).

8/4/2010 1:44:42 AM

^^ Thanks eyewall41. I always wondered that. Looks like the 9/11 terrorists killed quite a few Mohammads.

8/4/2010 2:29:36 AM

Just look at these fucking dopes. Am I really supposed to give them a pass because a loved one died? Oh your son died, I guess it's cool to be a frothing bigot now.

DON'T DISHONER MY SON'S GRAVE

Looks like he's already doing a great job of it lol

[Edited on August 5, 2010 at 2:16 PM. Reason : .]

8/5/2010 2:16:29 PM

I can totally see how building the mosque in that location is working to heal wounds.

8/5/2010 3:14:06 PM

What's GOING to? Banning Islam? Should we do it if it helps their widdle feewings?

8/5/2010 3:34:23 PM

This marks the beginning of larger culture wars between white/black america and the influx of hispanic and muslim populations that breed much faster and don't integrate into society very quickly. It's just like Europe. Expect riots and killings.

8/5/2010 4:18:35 PM

No, I'm just pointing out that its disingenuous for the Imam to pretend like he's doing this to "heal" the community or some BS like that.

8/5/2010 4:20:05 PM

Billy Graham holds crusades because he likes to see his face on billboards.

8/5/2010 4:23:22 PM

Quote :

"I can totally see how building the mosque in that location is working to heal wounds."

If it promotes meaningful dialogue between Muslims and others in America while encouraging integration of Muslims into our society, then that's exactly what it will do.

If the dude uses it to say, "Yay al Qaeda, go you fuckers go!" then I'll gladly join a mob to tar and feather him. But I have no good reason to think that's the plan, and you have no *good* reason to think so, either, so let them build the goddamn thing because we live in a free fucking country.

8/5/2010 5:26:45 PM

Quote :

"But I have no good reason to think that's the plan"

Then you haven't researched this guy's background.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want any government official to stand in the way of this mosque.

But I would like to see million man marches through the streets opposing it, and shame this guy out of this deliberate antagonization.

8/5/2010 6:00:29 PM

I heard someone sugggest the people building the mosque include a synagogue and a church in the building. even if they are just small, token areas for people of other faiths to worship. that would be a good gesture of healing and good faith. it will never happen, but an interesting idea.

8/5/2010 8:16:46 PM

would a baptist church ever include a small mosque inside of it?

8/5/2010 8:50:08 PM

if some baptist asshole wanted to build a church next to the site of a thousand murdered muslims (murdered by radical baptists) i would suggest the same thing.

if you want to pick a christian fight with me, you will lose.

8/5/2010 8:56:59 PM

^ when did you become a supporter of hate crime type of laws?

[Edited on August 5, 2010 at 9:20 PM. Reason : ]

8/5/2010 9:20:25 PM

You gotta let them build the mosque. This debate is stupid...You don't let them build it you prove that we are no different than the terrorists. We prove we don't believe in freedom.

Its like people saying "Dont burn the American flag, make that illegal"...If you aren't free to burn the symbol of freedom then you aren't too free now are you....

Let them break ground and stop asking the government to fix your problems

8/5/2010 9:55:45 PM

Quote :

"If it promotes meaningful dialogue between Muslims and others in America while encouraging integration of Muslims into our society, then that's exactly what it will do."

How is that going to work, exactly? Are a bunch of Christians and Jews going to head down to the local Mosque every Tuesday night to hear about how the United States brought 9/11 upon itself, or how Hamas is really a stand-up organization? Or maybe they'll all hold hands, sing kumbaya, and meditate on the virtues of martyrdom?

8/5/2010 10:29:25 PM

I'm so against this building being built... it's a huge slap in the face.


GO FREEDOM!

8/5/2010 10:40:36 PM

I hope that everyone here is intellectually honest and also supports westboro baptist church

8/5/2010 11:24:18 PM

Quote :

""The $100 million Cordoba House takes its name from the medieval Spanish city where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in peace for 800 years." I'm terrified."

Ha. You should be. Peace? PEACE?! And Cordoba? In the same sentence?

There is only one thing that "Cordoba" means in the Muslim mind: Islamic rule of the West, and prosperity borne out of continual raids and looting of Christians, and oppression and extreme taxation (or threats to get 'protection' money) from Christians. There was nothing remotely harmonious about anything with Cordoba.

There is ONE historical example of prolonged Islamic rule over Western powers,, and that is what they name the mosque next to a successful attack on the West.

What attack does this mosque stand to represent?

2 of them.

September 11, 2001.

And September 11, 1683. The Ottoman Empire had been expanding and harrassing Eastern Europe for decades and decades. They had been slowly beaten back many times. The Muslims made early 1683 their last, biggest, and greatest push toward domination - in a massive siege of Vienna that made most of the city flee and burn their own town down.

The siege was pretty successful. On 9/11/1683, a heroic Polish King led 40K+ soldiers to retake Vienna. And it worked. And we're all better off for it.

Bin Laden chose the day to say "Yeah, this still isn't over." 9/11 was not a random date. Cordoba is not a random name.

And I will repeat: within standard, widely accepted Islamic theology, and all historical Islamic jurisprudence, any Muslim is free to lie to any infidel about anything if he determines the lie will serve Islam.

Therefore, press releases from politically-minded Muslims about things that could make Islam look bad are, well, suspect.

[Edited on August 6, 2010 at 4:45 AM. Reason : a]

8/6/2010 4:44:17 AM

I've heard that the "center" in question is supposed to be interfaith. If this is the case, why can't a church, a synagogue, Hindu and Buddhist temples, and so on be allowed space in the building?

8/6/2010 4:52:00 AM

^it's a community center. as in, there will be a mosque, and there will also be a giant room for playing ping-pong and foosball open to people of all faiths. it's not going to be the disneyland of world religions.

8/6/2010 5:54:18 AM

^ I'm sure you think that line is pretty clever, but which far-left blog did you get it from? Or was it Gothamist?

Mo' Mo' Mosque: Fireman Says America Isn't Disneyland Utopia
August 5, 2010

http://gothamist.com/2010/08/05/as_promised_pat_robertsons_astrotur.php

In any event, if it's a community center--you know, for the community--then there shouldn't be any problem with allowing other faiths in the community to have places of worship on the site, too.

From the Park 51 Web site:

Vision

Quote :

"Park51 will be dedicated to pluralism, service, arts and culture, education and empowerment, appreciation for our city and respect for our planet."

http://www.park51.org/vision.htm

Then why not be "dedicated" to religious pluralism, too?

Mission

Quote :

"Uphold respect for the diversity of expression and ideas between all people."

http://www.park51.org/mission.htm

The why not "uphold respect for the diversity" of religious expression, too? These are legitmate questions.

And if the true desire of those associated with Park 51 is to help heal the wounds of 9/11, they appear to have failed:

61% Oppose Muslim Cultural Center; But, Majority Willing to Listen
August 5, 2010

http://tinyurl.com/26yx9k4

[Edited on August 6, 2010 at 8:11 AM. Reason : .]

8/6/2010 8:10:30 AM

I never knew that we had so many Westboro Baptist Church supporters in Soapbox.

I mean, Fred Phelps has a right to picket funerals, so we have to support him... isn't that what we've been saying in this thread?

8/6/2010 8:13:19 AM

Nope.

If Fred Phelps wanted to build a new church on private land that he or his endorsers purchased, I'd support the government not telling him what he can and can't do.

I'd still be opposed to it (just like this mosque) on the grounds that the last thing our planet needs is another religious building.

So can I say "Fuck Fred Phelps" and remain within your sensibilities?

8/6/2010 8:54:57 AM

I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating that the government shut this mosque down (correct me if I'm wrong, but god help you if you really want the gov. to ban churches)


The problem is all of you idiots running around giving this guy moral support.

8/6/2010 9:22:38 AM

I don't want the government to ban churches. I want the people to give churches up. (and mosques, and synagogues, and temples, and etc.)

Well, to be honest, I do want the government to ban churches on public land.

8/6/2010 9:26:04 AM

Non-profit entities should NOT enjoy tax exemption. That would quickly cut down on the number of religious buildings.

8/6/2010 9:55:47 AM

Quote :

"^ when did you become a supporter of hate crime type of laws?"

?

8/6/2010 2:29:27 PM

Quote :

"How is that going to work, exactly? Are a bunch of Christians and Jews going to head down to the local Mosque every Tuesday night to hear about how the United States brought 9/11 upon itself, or how Hamas is really a stand-up organization? Or maybe they'll all hold hands, sing kumbaya, and meditate on the virtues of martyrdom?"

Your bitter hatred of Muslims is well known, of course. But no. Even by inspiring this debate it is creating a dialogue -- which would be great, except so many of the non-Muslims are coming off as assholes this time.

Quote :

"There is ONE historical example of prolonged Islamic rule over Western powers"

Really? All of my coreligionists in the Greek Orthodox church will be surprised to hear it, seeing as how their territory was ruled by Muslims until this century. Arguably much of it still is. I suppose they could have called it the "Istanbul House."

8/6/2010 2:55:41 PM

I wouldn't really consider that Western. But either way, I may well have just said European, and it would remain the case, and the point is the same.

Looks like the only hope for this thing shutting down is the crazy, unionized NYC construction setup.

Building something like this takes a lot of people, and I hope they have trouble finding a crew willing to do it. I don't suspect there is a lot of enthusiasm among blue-collar New Yorker workers to get this done.

8/6/2010 3:14:02 PM