Quote :

"What I really don't understand is why everyone is of the opinion that this information is novel to Al Qaeda. Maybe this was addressed earlier I didn't feel like going through the pages of idiotic rants. If this group has gotten access to this information is it so unreasonable to think that other groups were already accessing it? "

it is novel to them because they are training other groups, as well as themselves, on how fight and kill our soldiers across the world. access to information such as our own training techniques, equipment weak points, etc...could be invaluable to a force like theirs. they dont have to win battles...they just have to inflict damage and this information could help them be more efficient at that.

this group has gotten access through people with security clearances. breaches like that dont happen every day, especially in this volume.

12/2/2010 1:44:20 PM

If it happened once it will most likely happen again. I would rather know about a security breach instead of it going on without any knowledge.

12/2/2010 2:24:08 PM

Without reading through the previous pages my opinion is as follows....

- Those Americans who leaked confidential information should be sought out, prosecuted, and punished to the full extent of the law.

- Non-Americans who hacked/stole information that was confidential to the US should be treated as spies and charged for espionage.

- Wikileaks purely as a medium on which the "confidential" information is displayed and released should be protected via free speech.

- Our world leaders are merely upset about having their dirty laundry aired out. They are thus using the propaganda machine and the media spin zone to "outrage" citizens such to empower their support.

I do not know the whole story, but if this Assange guy (as a NON-US citizen) is merely allowing the posting, editing, and publicly display of classified information provided; he has not done anything wrong.

[Edited on December 2, 2010 at 11:39 PM. Reason : l]

12/2/2010 11:37:32 PM

Quote :

"Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT), chairman of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, was among the congressmen who pressured Amazon to stop hosting Wikileaks. He told AFP this morning that he plans to question Amazon about its relationship with Wikileaks. "WikiLeaks' illegal, outrageous, and reckless acts have compromised our national security and put lives at risk around the world," he told AFP. "No responsible company—whether American or foreign—should assist WikiLeaks in its efforts to disseminate these stolen materials." The site was down briefly after being ejected from Amazon, but is back up and once again running on the servers of Bahnhof, its previous Swedish hosting provider."

12/3/2010 12:56:57 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/03/3084384.htm?section=justin

Apparently WikiLeaks was delisted by its domain name host, reducing them to mere IP addresses. The service claims it was because the DDoS attacks are becoming overwhelming. I read somewhere that attacks were reaching up to 10 Gbs/sec.

Despite the attacks, I'm not too surprised it came to this. The technical attacks are pretty severe (apparently Amazon had problems too), but even if they were able to withstand it, the way political heat is building up domestically, I can see why third parties want nothing to do with them particularly with all the rumblings of criminal charges.

I am curious as to where the DDoS attacks are coming from. I seriously doubt its our own government: it's too simple an approach, and besides, the documents are already in the hands of the press. I suppose it could be a supposed "patriot", but honestly, I find it more plausible that other offended parties (whether already offended or fearing a future release) such as the Russians or unnamed banks, may be taking advantage of the focus on the US-WikiLeaks link to launch their own attacks. Maybe its just simply an anarchist who decided to take advantage of the situation to create more chaos or a bored hacker who wanted the practice and found WikiLeaks an easy target since they don't really have much sympathy right now with law enforcement agents that would normally hunt them down. Who knows...

12/3/2010 2:41:05 AM

Don't let The Man keep you from reading those delicious WikiLeaks! Damn the DNS and go straight to http://88.80.2.32/ or http://88.80.13.160/

12/3/2010 3:10:42 AM

hey wikileaks fans

if you get off on watching videos of murders, heres another site you might like

http://www.liveleak.com/?ogr=1

12/3/2010 10:13:50 AM

Hey fans of brutal authority,

Like keeping cold-blooded murder swept under the rug (as long as it's America doing the killing)? Keep your head up your ass, no need to stress or worry

12/3/2010 10:51:04 AM

https://twitter.com/repronpaul/status/10716266021003264

Quote :

"Re: Wikileaks- In a free society, we are supposed to know the truth. In a society where truth becomes treason, we are in big trouble."

12/3/2010 12:14:32 PM

^ Jesus really? That's horrible logic.

If it's the truth, let it be published! Strategic weakpoints! Weapon's capabilities! Troop movements! As long as it's the truth, who cares?

Honestly this whole cables things is retarded, people are acting like it should be made public. How about you go ahead and take every private conversation/email etc and make it public for the world to pick apart.


[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM. Reason : a]

12/3/2010 12:44:26 PM

Quote :

"Hey fans of brutal authority"

I, too, am a fan of Sharia

12/3/2010 12:48:44 PM

^^
The point was revealing public deception does not make you a criminal.

12/3/2010 1:14:30 PM

The point is revealing diplomatic cables is completely asinine, there was no public deception. It was honest, unbiased opinions in a supposed private forum. So, if someone hacked into your accounts, gathering all your personal convos, and gave it to someone else to host on the interwebs for all to see, you'd be ok with that?

12/3/2010 1:29:10 PM

My private emails? No. My work emails? Sure.

12/3/2010 1:32:04 PM

Quote :

"If it's the truth, let it be published! Strategic weakpoints! Weapon's capabilities! Troop movements! As long as it's the truth, who cares?"

Secrecy should be afforded with legitimacy. Our government and military are practically rogue at this point, seeing as how they do not represent the best interests of the people.

Quote :

"I, too, am a fan of Sharia"

You are? Shit, even more we disagree on

12/3/2010 1:41:37 PM

No, I'm not a fan of Sharia

I was just hoping that every now and then you might take time out of your busy schedule of criticizing the US government and military, to speak out against such an authoritarian concept as Sharia, and all the problems they have...I mean you acknowledged you didn't like it which is a start...but since 99% of your critique in this thread has been about the United States, I had to ask

And if you say "duh, my critique in this thread is of the US since thats who is implicated by wikileaks", i'd just point out how narrow and biased wikileaks' focus is

12/3/2010 2:07:04 PM

Quote :

"I’m disgusted by Amazon’s cowardice and servility in abruptly terminating today its hosting of the Wikileaks website, in the face of threats from Senator Joe Lieberman and other Congressional right-wingers. I want no further association with any company that encourages legislative and executive officials to aspire to China’s control of information and deterrence of whistle-blowing."

http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2010/12/02/daniel-ellsberg-says-boycott-amazon/

12/3/2010 2:07:35 PM

^

12/3/2010 2:17:25 PM

i love how you guys completely ignore the atrocities that have been revealed by wikileaks like its not the most important issue.

thats the problem i have with the anti-wikileaks people here--by not focusing on the actual documents (and on assange instead) you are pretty much turning a blind eye on the corruption and crimes that have been revealed.

at this point the only good reason for joining our military is to document the atrocity in an effort to get the populace behind ending these wars.

the press is doing a good job to shift the focus onto assange and not the actual content of the leaks. this is obviously beneficial to the incriminated parties as the inflammatory info in past leaks does not necessarily trickle down to your average american despite them being hosted online for anyone to access.

12/3/2010 2:22:49 PM

I don't think anyone is, at this point, seriously arguing that US attrocities shouldn't be leaked, or that wikileaks was wrong to release those particular documents a long time ago. The relevant issue here is the recent cable release, which was just plain douchey.

Assange is a douche.

12/3/2010 2:47:58 PM

Quote :

"at this point the only good reason for joining our military is to document the atrocity in an effort to get the populace behind ending these wars."

Yes, because the military does absolutely no good. We are blood thirsty war mongers who will murder in cold blood. We do not serve our country, provide humanitarian assistance to countless numbers of people both home and abroad. We are the bastards of society, and we would love it if you joined us so you could document our atrocities.

12/3/2010 2:52:45 PM

Quote :

"The point is revealing diplomatic cables is completely asinine, there was no public deception. It was honest, unbiased opinions in a supposed private forum. So, if someone hacked into your accounts, gathering all your personal convos, and gave it to someone else to host on the interwebs for all to see, you'd be ok with that?"

As a government employee you are taught that all of your communications from work are a matter of public record. When I worked for the state I had to have a disclaimer on my email stating that these messages could be monitored by a third party. It is mighty convenient to claim "national security risk" to hide anything you are uncomfortable with. I am surprised Mike Easley didn't try it.
It is interesting that a lot of our governments faux outrage and stronger efforts to end this are happening right before the release of damaging bank information. Sounds like someone has something to hide...

12/3/2010 3:10:26 PM

Quote :

"As a government employee you are taught that all of your communications from work are a matter of public record."

But isn't there a pretty obvious difference in say, someone who files papers in a courthouse, versus a special forces soldier on a covert mission?

12/3/2010 3:17:31 PM

Yes, it's CAN be used as public record. For instance, any kind of financial misdoing etc. However, that is for the courts to decide. These cables were obtained ILLEGALLY, if wikileaks truly wanted full transparency that'd post exactly who gave it to them and how.

12/3/2010 3:18:57 PM

Quote :

"if wikileaks truly wanted full transparency that'd post exactly who gave it to them and how."

(journalism fail)



Yeah, journalism is about seeking the truth, so there's nothing wrong with revealing sources.

No... Nothing wrong with that logic...

12/3/2010 3:24:52 PM

So for everyone who is claiming that these are a "threat to national security" and are "going to get people killed" I want to see what top secret military information has been released. So far it has been a bunch of depressing war incidences (not surprising) and diplomats putting tactless shit in writing (they should know better). Sounds like political ass covering to me.

12/3/2010 3:32:23 PM

Quote :

"I was just hoping that every now and then you might take time out of your busy schedule of criticizing the US government and military, to speak out against such an authoritarian concept as Sharia, and all the problems they have...I mean you acknowledged you didn't like it which is a start...but since 99% of your critique in this thread has been about the United States, I had to ask And if you say "duh, my critique in this thread is of the US since thats who is implicated by wikileaks", i'd just point out how narrow and biased wikileaks' focus is"

This isn't a thread on Sharia law you boorish fucking idiot, if you want my opinion on it then start a thread.

Notification: you're bitching about criticism of the US in a thread about WIKILEAKS. If you want me to criticize other things then start discussions about other things. Also, as a US-citizen and tax-payer, the actions of the US abroad (especially illegal, immoral, illegitimate actions) are my business, directly.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 3:37 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 3:35:52 PM

sounds like someone hasnt had their weed today

12/3/2010 3:41:37 PM

Nothing to add? Not even going to desperately defend corruption?

Oh wait, I'm sorry. We don't call it corruption if the US is involved. Doing so is anti-American. American exceptionalism is a pre-requisite belief for fascism to spread through this country

12/3/2010 3:46:33 PM

Not defending corruption. Questioning why wikileaks only focuses on the US, and intentionally cherry picks their data, and intentionally omits data that doesn't agree with their agenda.

12/3/2010 3:48:16 PM

Oh you're "just asking questions"

Then allow me to ask you a question: what's your opinion on the war logs?

Also: what kind of data do you think they're omitting? Memos that say "oh just kidding"?

Also: why isn't your agenda the same as theirs, i.e., stopping US corruption that results in tens of thousands of foreign civilian deaths?

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 3:49:05 PM

Quote :

"Not defending corruption. Questioning why wikileaks only focuses on the US, and intentionally cherry picks their data, and intentionally omits data that doesn't agree with their agenda."

What do you think Wikileaks' agenda is?

12/3/2010 3:55:31 PM

I can't have a lump opinion of all the war logs. I have no problem with anything being released that shows any kind of past crimes, corruption, wrongdoing, etc. What I do have issue with is the released logs that put good people in harm's way by giving too much intelligence to the public (which includes the enemies) about current military operations and troop positions, etc. And its not just things that are that tangible. How about documents that show what our allied forces know about the enemies? Things that the enemies could see, decipher what we know, and counteract accordingly.

As far as what kind of data they're omitting, we already know they intentionally left out video footage of the attack that killed civilians in Afghanistan (iirc it was when this thread was created). The intentionally left out footage in order to paint the US military in a negative light in order to further their own agenda of painting the US government and military in as negative a light as possible.

And the better question is, why isn't their agenda the same as mine, ie stopping corruption and innocent deaths all around the world? Where are their hard hitting pieces and secret information about inhumane and corrupt governments everywhere else? No, it seems like all the outrage is concentrated on the US government and military, as if somehow we are the only country who has ever done anything wrong.

If you think their agenda is stopping US corruption that results in foreign civilian deaths, I would say you're partially correct. I would add their agenda is also to, simply put, cast a negative light on the American govt, military, etc. Which would be a lot more welcome if they also actually focused on corruption elsewhere, instead of essentially having a personal vendetta against the US only.

If this gives you a better idea of my feelings on wikileaks, I'm glad. If it doesn't change your mind one bit, then thats fine too, continue to imagine me as some kind of dumb redneck tea partier nascar bible thumper or whatever you want. I really don't give a fuck.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:03 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 3:58:37 PM

^ I believe there was damaging information on Austrailia to and middle eastern countries.

Quote :

" But isn't there a pretty obvious difference in say, someone who files papers in a courthouse, versus a special forces soldier on a covert mission? "

Please share the "top secret" information that endangers are troops in action.....

12/3/2010 4:04:37 PM

Quote :

"What I do have issue with is the released logs that put good people in harm's way by giving too much intelligence to the public (which includes the enemies) about current military operations and troop positions, etc."

AFAIK This isn't happening.

Quote :

"How about documents that show what our allied forces know about the enemies? Things that the enemies could see, decipher what we know, and counteract accordingly."

How about bringing our boys home and stopping with the stupid bullshit? This war is illegitimate and needs to stop. The legitimate one has been mismanaged to illegitimacy and should be ended immediately as well.

Quote :

"As far as what kind of data they're omitting, we already know they intentionally left out video footage of the attack that killed civilians in Afghanistan (iirc it was when this thread was created). The intentionally left out footage in order to paint the US military in a negative light in order to further their own agenda of painting the US government and military in as negative a light as possible."

The logs themselves do this. But you haven't examined the logs.

Quote :

"And the better question is, why isn't their agenda the same as mine, ie stopping corruption and innocent deaths all around the world? Where are their hard hitting pieces and secret information about inhumane and corrupt governments everywhere else? No, it seems like all the outrage is concentrated on the US government and military, as if somehow we are the only country who has ever done anything wrong."

Red herring. Other people do bad things as well. So what? What does this have to do with what's been released?

This is just a lame rhetorical tactic to shift focus from the atrocities and illegitimacy of our military actions. You should know better. But you don't.

Quote :

"If you think their agenda is stopping US corruption that results in foreign civilian deaths, I would say you're partially correct. I would add their agenda is also to, simply put, cast a negative light on the American govt, military, etc. Which would be a lot more welcome if they also actually focused on corruption elsewhere, instead of essentially having a personal vendetta against the US only."

Have you ever considered that the best way to improve the reputation of the US military is to stop using it for illegitimate purposes?

12/3/2010 4:04:57 PM

Quote :

"AFAIK This isn't happening."

If it was, would you have a problem with it happening? Would that be acceptable information to disclose, or is there a line that would be crossed in your opinion?

Quote :

"Red herring. Other people do bad things as well. So what? What does this have to do with what's been released?"

It shows that wikileaks doesn't have an interest in worldwide disclosure, or exposing corruption around the globe. It shows that their primary focus is painting the US in a negative light, and should make anyone think twice about what their agenda really is.

Quote :

"Please share the "top secret" information that endangers are troops in action....."

If you ask wikileaks I'm sure they'd be more than happy to do exactly that


[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:11 PM. Reason : ,]

12/3/2010 4:07:11 PM

Quote :

"If it was, would you have a problem with it happening?"

I'm not sure. Honest answer. Part of me has no problem whatsoever, honestly. Again, legitimacy needs to be restored to our military and government. Without transparency and accountability to the public, I don't see how this is going to happen.

While I don't want to see people put in harms' way, the military is putting *us* in harm's way right now (not to mention plenty of innocent civilians over there). If this were a legitimate war then it'd be one thing, but it's not. Corruption dropped us into this situation, and corruption keeps us there.

Secrecy should be afforded with legitimacy. Our government and military have literally gone rogue at this point, so honestly, endangering them is pretty low on my care-o-meter. If the danger encourages them to desist their corrupt, illegitimate violence, then maybe it's not such a bad thing.

Quote :

"It shows that wikileaks doesn't have an interest in worldwide disclosure, or exposing corruption around the globe. It shows that their primary focus is painting the US in a negative light, should make anyone think twice about what their agenda really is"

This sort of attempt at redirection makes me think twice about YOUR agenda. Why do you hate the American people so much? Why are you willing to sell out our interests for the benefit of the military-industrial complex?

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:12 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:11:15 PM

Quote :

"Our government and military are practically rogue at this point, seeing as how they do not represent the best interests of the people."

In what sense?

12/3/2010 4:11:30 PM

Quote :

"In what sense?"

Do you remember 9/11? It didn't happen out of nowhere. Just because you lack the context to understand how and why it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen as a causal consequence of our foreign entanglements.

Our military isn't busting peoples' asses in worldwide for the benefit of the average citizen here. It makes us remarkably LESS safe because it creates angry generations of men who are willing to join organizations like Al Qaeda. They're busting peoples' asses worldwide in what's basically an above-the-table siphoning of money from the public sphere into the private pockets of arms dealers, military contractors, etc.

Not to mention they're bankrupting the living fuck out of us. We have the most extravagant military in the history of the planet, but we have collapsing bridges, levees, and a whole slew of domestic problems. We won't take care of our own people unless they're willing to wield a weapon for the sake of the oligarchy. Doesn't this bother you?

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:15 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:14:02 PM

Quote :

"Our government and military have literally gone rogue at this point"

Seems like a pretty big generalization

Are there members of the government and military who have gone rogue? Who dont care? Who have fucked up? Of course

Does that mean all members of government or the military have? Of course not. So you're basically saying because of the actions of a few, you're generalizing the entire unit as being rogue and corrupt?

If you care so much about all the foreign citizens, why don't you care one bit about all the Americans who are on foreign soil doing the right thing?

Quote :

"Do you remember 9/11? It didn't happen out of nowhere. Just because you lack the context to understand how and why it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen as a causal consequence of our foreign entanglements."

ah...the old "she was raped for wearing that slutty dress" excuse

the sad thing is, and i hate to say it, if only the Pentagon was attacked on 9/11, i might agree with you...but I fail to see how our country deserved to have thousands of innocent civilians killed in the trade towers

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:14:19 PM

Quote :

"If it was, would you have a problem with it happening? Would that be acceptable information to disclose, or is there a line that would be crossed in your opinion? "

But it isn't so your question is purely hypothetical. What if it showed that 911 was Bush's secret agenda, What if it showed pigs could in fact fly. The point is is that so far the allegations of it being "a threat to national security" have been wildly untrue. Makes me interested as to what is being hidden here.
The worst thing you can say is it is biased. NEWS FLASH EVERY BIT OF MEDIA IS BIASED IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. At least we are getting some FACTS finally.

12/3/2010 4:19:39 PM

Quote :

"oes that mean all members of government or the military have? Of course not. So you're basically saying because of the actions of a few, you're generalizing the entire unit as being rogue and corrupt?"

They act as a unit so they must be handled as a unit. Sure, leaking information might harm people who are "doing the right thing" under your definition. Really, doing the right thing is staying home in America and not engaging in Empire-building for our oligarchy.

It's funny that when systematic corruption gets exposed, you want to cherrypick the "good ones". Yet when terrorists are the anomaly in Islam, you want to define the whole by the few.

American exceptionalism is a step from Nazi-ism and doesn't resemble patriotism ONE BIT. Wake up.

Quote :

"If you care so much about all the foreign citizens, why don't you care one bit about all the Americans who are on foreign soil doing the right thing?"

I do care about those Americans. It's why I want them home, out of harm's way, producing something worthwhile with their labor. Instead, they're pouring their labor into a wholly corrupt system that's ruining our country. Not only is it bankrupting us, it's making us LESS SAFE, for the benefit of arms dealers and military contractors.

Quote :

"ah...the old "she was raped for wearing that slutty dress" excuse"

Only the largest-scale idiot could equivocate this mindlessly. The people in those towers did not deserve to die in retaliation for what our military has done in the past. But if you think that our past military actions are CAUSALLY UNLINKED from 9/11 then you have literally no capacity to think whatsoever.

Quote :

"the sad thing is, and i hate to say it, if only the Pentagon was attacked on 9/11, i might agree with you...but I fail to see how our country deserved to have thousands of innocent civilians killed in the trade towers"

Of course it's reprehensible and terrible, just like when our military murders civilians taking revenge. Rarely does taking revenge with these measures hit the people that need to be punished. That doesn't mean that 9/11 was CAUSALLY UNLINKED from our past military actions. If anything you should be pissed beyond belief over 9/11, not only at the terrorists responsible, but also at our establishment that not only made it possible but ENGENDERED THE NECESSARY PRECONDITIONS.

12/3/2010 4:20:32 PM

Quote :

"It's funny that when systematic corruption gets exposed, you want to cherrypick the "good ones". Yet when terrorists are the anomaly in Islam, you want to define the whole by the few"

sounds kinda like you when talking about southerners or christians

12/3/2010 4:22:12 PM

Quote :

"sounds kinda like you when talking about southerners or christians "

Most southerners/Christians are regular, run of the mill human beings.

Got anything of substance to say, TT, or are you just here to troll and soldier for the viciously corrupt establishment?

12/3/2010 4:25:00 PM

Quote :

"Most southerners/Christians are regular, run of the mill human beings."

most soldiers in the US military have their heads in the right place and are doing what they believe is right

you call that systematic corruption

12/3/2010 4:26:32 PM

Quote :

"most soldiers in the US military have their heads in the right place and are doing what they believe is right you call that systematic corruption"

Haha nice try. Perfect execution of the rhetoric you've heard from pundits for decades now. I'm impressed by your ability to not only parrot what they say, but also to parrot their style and re-use their techniques for misdirection. It demonstrates a lot more intelligence than you've demonstrated in here before.

That being said, German soldiers in WW2 were "doing their job" too. Many of them were run of the mill, normal human beings with their head in the right place.

News flash: basically every enemy we've fought in a practical sense (the actual guys on the ground) fit this description. What is your point? Because soldiers on the ground are hood-winked, it makes the military NOT corrupt? What do you even imagine your point to be?

Get fucking lost, TT. You're out of your fucking element here. There's nothing a priori reprehensible about having such a small intellectual aptitude, but it becomes truly offensive once mixed with your overt and unapologetic defense of the corruption that is actively ruining this country. Wake up already.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:33 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:33:15 PM

Hasn't it occurred to you that Iraq has suffered dozens of 9/11's at the hands of the United States?

12/3/2010 4:34:44 PM

maybe i just expect every government in the world, from a local to national level, to be somewhat corrupt...thats the nature of politics

and basically, none of your 'solutions' are feasible at all

12/3/2010 4:40:32 PM

Quote :

"maybe i just expect every government in the world, from a local to national level, to be somewhat corrupt...thats the nature of politics and basically, none of your 'solutions' are feasible at all"

I expect "somewhat corrupt" as well. Not as corrupt as bankrupting our nation for the benefit of arms dealers and military contractors, lol. Not as corrupt as slaughtering a foreign civilian population so that a select few can make a buck (financed by the rest of us).

Are you even approaching serious right now?

12/3/2010 4:42:52 PM

McDanger is pwning the fuck out of you losers.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:44 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2010 4:44:02 PM