Quote :

"And your previous post wasn't about white women getting hit on...it was about getting hit on with inappropriate remarks and grabbing to the point that it creeped out the girls. And that's just bullshit. All races of men are liable to do that, not just African American men. I mean, your premise has white guys slamming back jager bombs and being perfect gentlemen? Please."

You can't defend this position that black men hit on women more often and that black men don't creep out women more often. Creeping out women is a byproduct of hitting on them. You can't separate to two. More advances = more creep. You don't get to claim one and not the other.

6/26/2012 9:37:52 AM

First off, I never actually agreed with the premise that they were more likely to hit on women.

Second off,



I laid out an argument for you that doesn't involve something that you and face cannot prove. But since you insist on doing it, then fine...prove it. Prove that black males are more likely to grab white women and make inappropriate remarks. Prove that white women are so creeped out by black males that they stop going to clubs where black males frequent.

It's 2012...how many more hundreds of years are we going to have worry about protecting our white flowers from the advances of aggressive black males?

face going down that road is not surprising, but you should consider checking yourself...

6/26/2012 10:12:55 AM

I've worked in bars for 8 years...and unfortunately, face is correct.

6/26/2012 10:16:47 AM

DTSB should adopt the same membership policy as TWW.

Anyone can get in with $5, anyone that gets kicked out can get back in with $5.

6/26/2012 10:21:54 AM

^^To be clear, this is his argument: Black guys hit on white women. White women get so creeped out that they stop going to the club. Once white women stop going, white men stop going. Without white males to spend money, the club can't make money. Therefore, it's okay to discriminate against black males.

You're agreeing with that?

^That would be awesome.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 10:23 AM. Reason : ]

6/26/2012 10:22:28 AM

the black kid is going to be on CNN in like 5 minutes

6/26/2012 10:36:26 AM

?

I didn't see him.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM. Reason : I see now.]

6/26/2012 10:46:33 AM

I'm not agreeing that its okay to discriminate against black males.

I'm just saying that black males, in general, hit on white women in a more inappropriate way than white guys do. The more black males that start to frequent your bar, the more women start avoiding your bar. Then your bar gets referred to as being "ghetto"...and clientele and profits go down (I worked at a bar where this exact thing happened).

Does it give you the right to discriminate? No. It just means you should run your bar better and be very careful in the types of decisions you make when constructing, designing, and operating your bar.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 10:48 AM. Reason : .]

6/26/2012 10:47:46 AM

sorry, its 1040AM ... i cant read

6/26/2012 10:50:08 AM

Quote :

"Black guys hit on white women. White women get so creeped out that they stop going to the club. Once white women stop going, white men stop going. Without white males to spend money, the club can't make money. Therefore, it's okay to discriminate against black males."

sounds plausible

6/26/2012 10:56:01 AM

Quote :

"Does it give you the right to discriminate? No. It just means you should run your bar better and be very careful in the types of decisions you make when constructing, designing, and operating your bar."

I would like to add that the same bar where the "ghettofication" happened...also had younger college kids start going there which also affected the crowd. So it wasn't just the infiltration of black males.

You just have to be careful how you run your bar. You want it to be a popular place where everyone wants to go...but when you become very popular, you run the risk of attracting the wrong clientele. Whether it be ghetto, stupid college kids, or annoying tourists. It's difficult, but it can be done.

6/26/2012 11:00:08 AM

I still stand by their argument

regardless of whether they are a private club or not, you can't selectively enforce a membership policy. Even though DTSB has it on their liquor license, they weren't going through the right procedures and we all know they aren't gonna sit there and drive away dinner business by requiring a membership at 5pm.

6/26/2012 11:00:11 AM

^^^^^I agree that people avoid places with too many black people. That, I get. And, if i were a business owner, I'd do whatever I could to keep my establishment from tipping...I wouldn't want to own and run a "white" or "black" club.

But I object to this extra step that you guys are inserting in there...that black people are bad for business because they don't know how to behave themselves. That notion obscures the truth: it doesn't matter how they actually behave...people are going to call them ghetto and avoid places with too many of them no matter how they act. Furthermore, it belies the fact that white people are able to misbehave all they want without it affecting the reputation of their race and their likelihood of getting into the club.

6/26/2012 11:14:50 AM

tl;dr

patrons are the ones discriminating...club owners are being reactionary

6/26/2012 11:27:57 AM

How about a mexican club? That would be sweet! We could get piñatas.

6/26/2012 11:30:39 AM

Quote :

"That notion obscures the truth: it doesn't matter how they actually behave...people are going to call them ghetto and avoid places with too many of them no matter how they act."

There are ghetto black people just as there are white rednecks. You don't want either of them.

You have to price out shitty customers (white or black) or make an environment that they don't or can't be in. We had a "no caps" policy at a bar I worked at. It was great at not letting ghetto kids with their flat-billed pro team hats and redneck frat kids with their USC and Clemson hats in.

There's a bar or two around here that doesn't allow sandals either. Which turns away about 90% of the rainbow wearing crowd down here...but the 10% that can still get in spends a ton of money.

6/26/2012 11:42:28 AM

Why are you even talking?

I don't even know how what you're saying addresses my points at all.

Really, you're just stating obvious things.

Also, we've now had a classic conversation about ghetto people and rednecks. So this thread is officially one giant cliche. Good work, guys!

6/26/2012 11:51:28 AM

You said that people avoid places that have too many black people...regardless of how they act. I'm telling you that you're wrong.

6/26/2012 11:53:49 AM

How does you blathering about flip fops and baseball hats demonstrate my wrongness?

6/26/2012 11:57:41 AM

I'm saying it's the type of crowd not the color of the crowd.

There's a good group of professional black dudes that go out in my city and can take over a bar every now and then and it doesn't have this effect that you're talking about.

The flip-flop comment was just another example of how to control certain crowds. Not necessarily a direct argument against you.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 12:05 PM. Reason : .]

6/26/2012 12:04:21 PM

supposedly Obama wants in.

rumors of him coming to speak on glenwood

6/26/2012 12:27:49 PM

Quote :

"^^To be clear, this is his argument: Black guys hit on white women. White women get so creeped out that they stop going to the club. Once white women stop going, white men stop going. Without white males to spend money, the club can't make money. Therefore, it's okay to discriminate against black males."

Yes, correct, that is the argument. Whose argument? last page I say:

Quote :

"yeah, rallydurham offered a more coherent view than that, that black guys scare away the white women, and that insecure white guys who spend texas on drinks are where the bottom line comes from."

This stuff was exhumed, not in this thread, but in confessions thread

/message_topic.aspx?topic=580984&page=272

Which went to old thread

/message_topic.aspx?topic=536041&page=6

in which the original post had a time stamp of
8/26/2008 1:17:06 AM

So just to be clear, face didn't just think of this or something. In fact, you're kind of arguing through other people like a proxy against statements those people never claimed as their own.

Maybe it's splitting hairs, but it's interesting that rallydurham's post stood out in someone's mind so much that they were confessing about it 4 years later. But even that original post in 2008 was probably connected to the fact that WRAL did the story about The Office (which is what they were talking about) discriminating against black couples in 2001.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/11241567/

Quote :

"Todd Chriscoe, general manager of The Downtown Sports Bar and Grill on Glenwood Avenue, was the subject of a 2001 WRAL Investigates story, which looked into membership and dress code policies at a private Raleigh club on West Street."

If any subtle biases are playing out here, it's probably due to the fact that the news portrayed a club to be racist in 2001, and then TWW users just happen to perceive said club to have turned into "the black club" in 2004. But that's just speculation. I'm just trying to get the facts straight first.

/TWW historian frog

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 12:30 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2012 12:29:34 PM

^^^But what would happen if they frequented the same bar/club every weekend? Would it not get a reputation as the black bar? And that's what I'm saying...because of discriminatory practices, many black people end up going to the same bar/club, which causes that place to get a reputation as ghetto...which causes more discrimination as other business owners are trying to avoid being the "ghetto" place. It's a cycle that could be broken.

Also, I would argue that the extent to which black people have to go to show that they are, in your words, "good" and "professional" is higher than it is for white people. Also, you are kind of talking about different thing...like, you clearly work in some nice joints...DTSB is not a nice place where everybody has to be an upper middle class professional or a travel photographer to get in.

If I really stop and think about it...I can't imagine how humiliating it would be to get turned away from or kicked out of a place like DTSB. Like, going out of my way to change myself...put on my dress shirt, belt my pants up to my chest with my shirt tucked in to prove that I'm not carrying a weapon...and then have some prick be like, "Nah, man, members only...you should try Hi5 (or whatever the new place is that everybody is calling ghetto now)." That would suck so bad.

^I'm just reading this thread. I assumed face was rallydurham or that you just accidentally called him rallydurham. The face post I'm referring to is on page 2. Thanks though?

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason : I've already posted too many words on this issue...it's cool if we disagree.]

6/26/2012 12:39:47 PM

I'm increasingly surprised at bridget's stance on this issue, given her established reputation of discrimination on this website against people of color such as myself.

6/26/2012 1:02:22 PM

6/26/2012 1:07:55 PM

I keep starting these long posts...and deleting them. I've been getting into too many long-winded, pointless arguments on t-dub recently.

To Bridget...I get what you're saying and your argument does make sense to a certain extent. I would just tell you to believe what I'm saying as someone who has worked every single weekend, at several different types of bars, for over seven years straight (only exceptions being Christmas and the occasional wedding).

6/26/2012 1:16:12 PM

TLDR.
Is page 7 an argument where a bunch of dudes are arguing with a female about what kind of harrasment females feel at clubs?

6/26/2012 1:29:08 PM

Quote :

"supposedly Obama wants in. rumors of him coming to speak on glenwood"

I call BS on that. No way Obama is wading into a minor racial incident like this. This sort of thing (sadly) fairly common.

6/26/2012 1:50:10 PM

but NC is a swing state and a youth/minority demographic looking in...uhmmm its a GREAT idea to do it.

6/26/2012 1:58:32 PM

I heard that George Zimmerman used to shoot pool there.

6/26/2012 2:01:35 PM

It's an awful idea for a politician to get involved. That's why it would never happen.

6/26/2012 2:01:35 PM

CNN supposedly had a story with the guy who got kicked out of the DTSB at 10:40 am this morning.

new I think:
Bar manager accused of racial discrimination at another Raleigh club
http://www.wral.com/news/local/video/11241860/#/vid11241860

Rally details:
June 30th- 12pm-4pm
Moore Square

The previous "press conference" was
Friday, June 22, 12pm
at the state capitol

IMO, the rally looks basically completely shoddily organized. Unless some group is spending a lot of effort on organizing this privately, there's going to be maybe 200-ish people there. Nothing close to an Obama event. It's in 4 days, so you can stop speculating.

6/26/2012 3:33:37 PM

That thing about Chriscoe's past at The Office is on page 6.

I actually watched the CNN bit this morning. Wall's attorney, Alesia Vick, does not come off well. I've only seen her appear twice now, but she appears to be so annoyed/angry...like not just about the incident, but just in general.

I wish I could find a clip of the CNN thing so you guys could confirm her demeanor. I think I may just be racist against black women.

6/26/2012 3:54:05 PM

I'm not sure if the video is new or not. WRAL mixes a lot of old material into new segments that also has new material so sometimes it's hard to say.

The one thing I thought might be new is the fact that WRAL went to the DTSB and talked with the manager, or at least tried to.

6/26/2012 4:22:04 PM

he could have been involved in something in the past and the bouncer didnt want to be bothered with him on this particular night.

or he might have seen him acting like a dbag walking up to the bar.

honestly, those are reasons why i have rejected people in the past, but I feel its a little passive aggressive to not provide a reason. But different doormen have different styles, and honestly, the more you argue the less likely i am to pay attention.

i dont know, but I hardly believe this is a racial issue. Hell, this nigga accused me of being a racist fucker because I turned him away when he showed me his department of corrections card..or that i am racists against the british because i wouldnt take a UK id

ugh....ok, people get mad because they cant get in and they say any number of things really.

also, i hate to say this, but ive been told to not allow certain people back into the bar because at some point they left a shitty tip or used a bad card, yes depending on the extent that gets you banned

Quote :

"'m just saying that black males, in general, hit on white women in a more inappropriate way than white guys do."

thats a load of fucking bullshit, just shut it up

that being said, increase in blacks does lead to people leaving sooner and then shit starts popping off...and the black women are rude. but its not because black people are hitting on white women, thats false

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 4:34 PM. Reason : w]

6/26/2012 4:26:36 PM

Quote :

"thats a load of fucking bullshit, just shut it up"

It's only because most white guys are pussies.

6/26/2012 4:39:41 PM

i dont think thats true either

i dont think it is a testament to color so much as drunkeness.

i get that black men will approach a woman and start up a conversation more than likely, but i dont think we are more likely to harass once the hint is dropped that the woman is not interested, that is entirely a function of having had too much to drink

and the behavior is the same regardless of the color of the female.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 4:45 PM. Reason : w]

6/26/2012 4:43:06 PM

^^^^^I should add that the CNN woman was a total B. And I was joking about the black woman thing, but for real, I am really annoyed with a lot of black activists and activists in general. Too often, for the sake of their cause, they're just totally insincere. For example, here's a quote from Jonathan Wall:

Quote :

"It is important to share this fact with you, that until this summer, I had only patronized a night club in Raleigh one other time in my life... I was unfortunately faced with the harsh reality that I did not realize existed. What was so demoralizing about this, this reality, is that I have worked to do everything right: I have studied hard; I have worked hard; I have served others. And yet I was treated as if I've done something wrong."

Really? He's a 21-year-old black man who never realized that people discriminated against the color of his skin and that those people would do so regardless of his credentials?

But, obviously, not really...he's embellishing in order to add drama to his tale. And it's this insincerity, the feigned shock/outrage, that comes off sooooo badly. And a lot of people don't even realize that he's embellishing or why he's embellishing. They're just left with the impression that, for some reason, they don't trust him or like him.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 4:49 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2012 4:48:32 PM

true

alot of these accusations come off this way

that is why they are not take seriously by anyone. At best, they are merely used as a reason to stir the pot and get in the news.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 5:00 PM. Reason : f]

6/26/2012 4:58:50 PM

Quote :

"i get that black men will approach a woman and start up a conversation more than likely, but i dont think we are more likely to harass once the hint is dropped that the woman is not interested"

That's pretty much what I'm saying...which also means that there is more likely to be more "inappropriate" behavior. I agree with the second sentence as well. Only the really really drunk ones (black or white) keep going after the big hints are dropped.

Quote :

"and the behavior is the same regardless of the color of the female."

I agree with this as well. Although I guess its possible that black women get a little more of it because the men think they can take it. There's unfortunately not enough black women that go out where I go out and where I worked for me to form an opinion on that. Unfortunate because I like black wimmenz...

6/26/2012 5:05:41 PM

cool


personall im glad not as many black women go out they have horrible attitudes, often times the men they are with are embarassed and apologize profusely

this is like the 28 to 40+ range of women. the college aged black women are really sweet.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 5:07 PM. Reason : f]

6/26/2012 5:06:18 PM

Quote :

"Creeping out women is a byproduct of hitting on them."

Sounds like someone needs to step their fucking game up.

6/26/2012 6:00:10 PM

Quote :

"Creeping out women is a byproduct of hitting on them. You can't separate to two. More advances = more creep. You don't get to claim one and not the other."

It's only creepy if you're unattractive.

Creepy = Unattractive

You can't separate the two.

6/26/2012 6:04:21 PM

No, it's only creepy if you're a creep. Being attractive and being creepy don't have to have anything to do with one another.

Don't bring that weak shit and women won't be creeped out. I bet you're trying to holler with your shoes all bent up.



[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 6:10 PM. Reason : .]

6/26/2012 6:08:09 PM

Attractiveness is a lot more complex than physical appearance. Find real world uses of "creep", and in almost every case, the girl was put off by the way that the guy carried himself. It's not a simple case of poor facial aesthetics/dress/body/whatever, the guy just failed to come across as warm, genuine, or...you know....attractive. Obviously, if you're just better looking you can get away with more questionable shit during conversation without it seeming "creepy".

"Creepiness" comes down to unwanted attention.

[Edited on June 26, 2012 at 6:19 PM. Reason : ]

6/26/2012 6:15:54 PM

Quote :

"Raleigh, N.C. — A Raleigh man who claims he was physically removed from a downtown bar because he is black has filed a complaint against one of the bar's employees. The criminal summons, issued on June 22, was served Tuesday against Todd Chriscoe, who manages The Downtown Sports Bar and Grill on Glenwood Avenue. In the paperwork, Jonathan Wall, 21, accuses Chriscoe, 47, of simple assault and ethnic intimidation. Wall says Chriscoe grabbed his wrists, put them behind his neck, forced him out of the bar and pushed him to the ground. The criminal summons is based on Wall's accusations before a magistrate and not a police investigation. Raleigh police have said they are not investigating the matter because Wall never filed a police report. A hearing in Wake County District Court has been set for July 23. Wall's attorney, Alesia Vick, said at a news conference last week that Chriscoe confronted Wall in the early hours of June 17 and told him he would have to buy a drink or leave. When Wall explained that he was waiting on a friend, Vick said, Chriscoe put him in a headlock and forced him out of the bar. She said there were no other black customers in that part of the bar. William Potter, an attorney for The Downtown Sports Bar and Grill, has said that Wall was not improperly treated and that he was thrown out of the bar because he was not a member. Potter has insisted that race had nothing to do with the matter. Still, Wall's story has prompted numerous other people who are black to come forward, saying they were also treated differently at The Downtown Sports Bar and Grill. A rally being called "Above It All: A Raleigh Stand Against Social Injustice" is being planned for Saturday, although a location and time have not been finalized. Other patrons have come to the bar's defense, denying that it discriminates. Nightlife photos taken at the bar, including those by LazyDay.com, show diverse crowds inside. Accusations of discrimination aren't new for Chriscoe. In 2001, he co-owned a private club called The Office in downtown Raleigh. The club's strict dress code that prohibited styles of clothing popular among black people. A WRAL News investigation at the time found that a doorman treated a white couple and a black couple wearing the same brand of clothing differently. Chriscoe said back then that the matter had nothing to do with race but had more to do with creating an upscale environment and ensuring that patrons of the club felt comfortable. "

6/26/2012 7:30:09 PM

I'm always surprised at people who spend their life owning a series of shitty bars. I thought that it's something that you would get out of your system pretty quickly.

6/26/2012 7:33:49 PM

Why don't bouncers ask "how would you hit on a woman in this establishment" rather than an I.D?

6/26/2012 9:56:27 PM

This case is just getting more weird.
So he didn't want to file a report when the cops were there that night.
But now he wants to file one but he no longer has any evidence and the police aren't getting involved.
And people are saying tons of the photos show a mix of patrons at the bar.

I would love to see the truth come out about this Todd guy, but I'm also starting to think this Wall guy just wants his 10 minutes of fame. Hell, I mean he's going to Harvard right? This would make him an instant name there.

6/26/2012 10:34:45 PM

True or not - the real atrocity is how shitty that bar is.

6/26/2012 10:38:04 PM