per Ohio Department of Development, Wal-Mart is the largest employer in Ohio (by an very healthy margin) http://jobs-ohio.com/images/ohio-major-employers.pdf. I think they play a significant part of setting prevalent wages.

[Edited on November 19, 2013 at 3:22 PM. Reason : .]

11/19/2013 3:19:27 PM

Here ya go d357r0y3r and Lonesnark, I know we are on very different wavelengths, but I hope this helps us to meet in the middle:

http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2013-11-19/summers-expects-long-winter

A zerohedge post, hopefully in your language, discussing some of the things I've been mentioning. Now, what the author sees as the "source of chronic shortage of aggregate demand," congestion of capital, is pretty unsupportable and likely bullshit IMO (I prefer automation, income inequality, demographic changes, low hanging fruit ideas, etc). Still a lot of the things he says are parallel to what I've been trying to suggest (probably not very clearly).

[Edited on November 19, 2013 at 3:40 PM. Reason : I know the thread has already moved past this discussion, feel free to disregard as Im pretty overit]

11/19/2013 3:38:17 PM

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/04/big-labor-s-big-mac-attack.html

Regarding the fast food protests today and the total disconnect from reality displayed by those jockeying for $15/hr. minimum wage.

12/5/2013 1:44:08 PM

We pay $15/hr to minimum wage employees in the first world. Probably not sustainable in the 3rd world of NC.

12/5/2013 2:17:23 PM

Where is this first world where "we" pay $15/hr to minimum wage employees?

12/5/2013 2:24:04 PM

apparently Australia

12/5/2013 2:28:16 PM

How soon before we can recycle these chumps into Taco Bell meat filling?

12/5/2013 3:42:38 PM

Santa Monica, CA and they have to pay high rent! How do they stay in business here?! It's a miracle!

[Edited on December 5, 2013 at 6:19 PM. Reason : a]

12/5/2013 6:19:04 PM

Ah, yes, California, a state known for great money managment and economic equality.

12/6/2013 12:50:45 PM

^

Just giving an example of a place where they do it. We still have a few McDonald's and other fast food places even off the main drags where tourists are not going.

12/6/2013 7:18:08 PM

Not McDonald's, but relevant to wages in the food service industry:

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-03/applebees-is-now-serving-tablets

12/7/2013 3:20:23 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/subway-employee-puts-penis-on-bread-frozen-urine_n_3635174.html
By all means, people like this deserve 15/hr. The moment McD's wages are 15/hr, you will find every last employee there out of a job, because they don't have the skills the warrant being paid that much.

12/8/2013 3:36:05 PM

Clearly one dumbass kid can damn a whole class of workers.

12/8/2013 5:49:12 PM

If you think it's just one dumbass kid placing his genitals on the food or doing similar things, you are sorely mistaken.

12/8/2013 6:43:42 PM

Quote :

"By all means, people like this deserve 15/hr. The moment McD's wages are 15/hr, you will find every last employee there out of a job, because they don't have the skills the warrant being paid that much."

I agree with you, I think. I believe what you are saying is that the jobs at McD's that remain (after the rest of us decide just how much we're willing to spend on lunch and how much automation can be thrown at it) will be taken by more capable workers that under a lower minimum-wage regime would work in other industries?

12/9/2013 5:11:24 PM

Quote :

"If you think it's just one dumbass kid placing his genitals on the food or doing similar things, you are sorely mistaken. "

Really? How many? 0.001% would still be a lot in raw numbers.

12/9/2013 7:10:07 PM

Well then its a really good thing that you just made up that percentage, even though its probably off by a couple factors of 10.

12/9/2013 8:54:27 PM

I was being sarcastic. Where is this mass study of dicks on sandwiches?

12/9/2013 10:21:49 PM

$15/hour works out to about $30k/year. Haha, unskilled labor just doesn't rate anywhere near that.

I remember my first year as a Lt in the USMC. I made $37k (and worked a shitload more than 40 hours per week). Adjusted for inflation to 2013, that's equivalent to about $44k/year. I felt like I was fucking rich, haha. I had a supercharged S2000 and a Wrangler, and did basically whatever I wanted, within some semblance of reason. I mean, I couldn't do anything ridiculously extravagant, and if I did ABC, then maybe XYZ had to wait a couple of months, but I did not feel tight on cash, even after maxing out an IRA (though no other investing at that time). My Jeep needed a new transmission...it was over $1000...I think maybe $1200. I mean, it sucked, but it was no big deal.

Before that, I made about $8/hour selling auto parts in college, and for a little bit full time before I started active duty. Once I was full time, I did OK. Now, I didn't live like middle class, and I didn't have a family to support, but what the fuck do you want here? Maybe you shouldn't buy a house or have kids or have a wife who sits around on her ass and sponges off you, or drive anything other than a cheap used car if you're making $8/hour (*that's probably about $9.50 now). I don't know that I got paid what I was worth, but I think the job generally paid what the job was worth.


All that's beside the point anyway, of course. It doesn't make any fucking difference what people "deserve"; we won't bend basic rules of economics. There will be a price if we raise minimum wages above market (and no effect positive or negative if market is above minimum wage, which it mostly is right now, I think). Not only will we lose some jobs, but some of the jobs remaining will become more skilled, tending to machines that replaced the unskilled, etc.


On top of all that, this is attacking the wrong problem, anyway (just like health insurance reform misses the point--the problem was less insurance than cost of medical care in general). The problem isn't that burger flippers make $8/hour and being poor sucks. Being poor has always sucked, and it always will. The problem is that people who dig themselves into a hole have a real hell of a time ever climbing out once they're at a certain depth. I don't buy that there isn't upward mobility in general, but there is once you reach a certain level of underclass entrenchment (which usually requires your own bad decisions, although circumstance is probably a factor most of the time, too). If you are born into a dumbass, poor family, and you don't finish HS, and then you have a kid, well...usually one (and likely 2) of these things is your fault, but unless you catch a break or have a good blue-collar skill, you're probably gonna have a bitch of a time ever reaching a reasonably stable, comfortable lifestyle.

If we're going to do anything to help poor people, we shouldn't be looking to pay them more than they're worth or, worse yet, redistribute other people's money to them for nothing. We should be spending money on things that would actually help fix their root problems. Childcare is one of the biggest things. Transportation can be another. We have programs to help pay for schooling, but those other factors still hold people back.

12/10/2013 12:13:08 AM

Again, pay these stupid assholes $30k a year and watch teachers burn this country to the ground.

12/10/2013 12:18:29 AM

I know a girl who had a 7th grade education (her white trash mother pulled her out of school and I think lived kind of transient). She got raped, had a kid, got married, had a couple more kids (not smart), and then left her husband because he kept beating the shit out of her. She's gotten pregnant from another dude since; she's pregnant with #4 right now.

She finally got her GED and is actually currently in college classes (mostly online, I think)...I think she's actually not that dumb, but she's (A) never learned how to do basic things, like have a bank account, for example, and (B) due to unfortunate circumstance and bad decisions, is pretty much fucked now. It doesn't matter how hard she tries, it'll be extremely tough for her to ever really be self-sufficient. I mean, she can hardly find/keep a job, because she doesn't have a car to get to and from it...which means she can't save up money to get a car, and so on. That doesn't even touch the childcare issue.

She has the typical poor-person's issue of not understanding at all how to manage money (mindset of "gotta spend it on what I want/need to buy RIGHT NOW before the money runs out!", rather than any concept of saving it and ever actually getting ahead and breaking the cycle)...but aside from that, I firmly believe that she's capable enough and certainly willing to put forth the effort to get a valuable skill (or in her case, even a college degree...although I think we send way too many people to college, but that's another issue) and a middle class (or at least working class) job, but the barriers to that mobility are pretty high, as she's so entrenched into the underclass (i.e., totally different scenario than when I made $8/hour through college and then waiting a few months for my career to start).

There is no shortage of stupid and/or lazy poor people, but some of them are not that at all. They are simply hemmed in logistically, and oftentimes just don't know how to be anything other than poor.

...and raising the minimum wage isn't going to fix those things.

[Edited on December 10, 2013 at 12:34 AM. Reason : ]

12/10/2013 12:32:59 AM

Quote :

"and raising the minimum wage isn't going to fix those things."

What it will do is make it worse. If it is hard for her to keep a job now, just wait until it is illegal to employ her.

12/10/2013 9:52:44 AM

My main argument is that the rewards at the top are so great we've created two separate worlds. One where you aren't punished for minor transgression like towing, job loss, or parking tickets, and one where the penalties are catastrophic and hard to recover. Being even in the top 10% means not doing your own laundry, house chores, and having ready access to drivers when you're drunk. Why not help a little out or at least give them enough money for drugs and alcohol so they don't start kidnapping people to feed their family after they get a DUI.

12/10/2013 2:40:13 PM

Quote :

"I remember my first year as a Lt in the USMC. I made $37k (and worked a shitload more than 40 hours per week). Adjusted for inflation to 2013, that's equivalent to about $44k/year. I felt like I was fucking rich, haha"

While I appreciate those that serve, this is a disingenuous comparison. There are living cost you simple don't have to worry about when you are in the armed forces. Or are you counting things like your BHA into that 37k (would seem low though)

12/10/2013 4:01:43 PM

I felt rich when I made $37K too, and wasn't in the armed forces. The speeding ticket I got that nearly bankrupted me and caused my insurance to go up proved other wise.

12/10/2013 4:29:22 PM

Yep, that's counting BAH and BAS--everything totaled up to make it pretty much apples to apples (tax advantage of BAH was probably worth another thousand or two).

Quote :

"Being even in the top 10% means not doing your own laundry, house chores, and having ready access to drivers when you're drunk. "

What? No way. I mean, yeah, you could afford to pay those things if you wanted, but most 10th percentile types would view that as frivolous and not do it.

You're describing the top 1% or fraction of a percent.

12/10/2013 5:03:24 PM

I'm top 1% by income and I do all of those things and still save about 50% of what I make. When I was in the top 10% by income I still got my house cleaned and took drivers places, it wasn't as often but I still did it. Now that I make more, I don't do my own laundry either. I can't imagine anyone would if they make more than 100K, especially if they live in a city with Lyft, Uber, TaskRabbit or Washio.

12/10/2013 6:05:30 PM

Quote :

"There is no shortage of stupid and/or lazy poor people, but some of them are not that at all. They are simply hemmed in logistically, and oftentimes just don't know how to be anything other than poor. ...and raising the minimum wage isn't going to fix those things. "

It's not going to fix those things for her but could it allow her kid(s) to live a slightly less poor life, and develop and understanding of those things?

(note: i don't agree with raising the min. wage, but I do agree with taking other actions to raise hourly full time worker pay)

12/10/2013 6:07:34 PM

Quote :

"I can't imagine anyone would if they make more than 100K, especially if they live in a city with Lyft, Uber, TaskRabbit or Washio."

I clean my own house and wash my own cloths, I also do all of my own yard work, cooking, and most of my own household improvements/repairs. Thats money that can be spent on good Bourbon.

12/11/2013 5:08:10 PM

Wash my own clothes, or go skiing this weekend... Hmmm.

My hobbies aren't doing house repairs so I rent.

12/11/2013 5:30:50 PM

Anecdote story time, everyone gather around on the story mat!

12/11/2013 9:35:05 PM

Back on topic though. Its not like 15/hour would bring these people to 30k a year. Most of them get 15-25 hours/week so it would be more like 12k-20k a year. Not exactly rolling in cash but closer to what's needed to shelter, feed, and clothe oneself.

12/12/2013 9:43:34 AM

Quote :

"(note: i don't agree with raising the min. wage, but I do agree with taking other actions to raise hourly full time worker pay)"

Exactly, Black teenage unemployment is at 44% last I heard, so abolish the minimum wage and raise the EITC or similar transfer program.

12/13/2013 7:57:24 AM

[Edited on January 5, 2014 at 5:10 PM. Reason : .]

1/5/2014 5:04:06 PM

http://www.policymic.com/articles/80343/23-rich-countries-have-a-higher-minimum-wage-than-the-u-s

Whether you care about other countries or not, shouldn't min wage in a given country keep pace with inflation? Min wage is now lower than it was in 1956. That's insane and inhumane.

1/28/2014 8:30:09 PM

minimum wage laws contribute to inflation, making it an even larger problem.

1/28/2014 8:35:18 PM

I think we should have the same minimum wage as Sweden.

1/29/2014 12:43:27 AM

^^

You joking? Seems like you're just parroting someone there.

First, is inflation a problem now? And you really think poor people going from making 14000 a year to 20000 a year will make refrigerators and gasoline much more expensive...? Ha. You people will fall for anything...

1/29/2014 12:58:51 AM

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101367332

1/29/2014 3:04:08 AM

I just think the wage should be high enough that new cars aren't keyed and food spit in when I go to a restaurant. Though my car got keyed when I made $30K a year... I am kind of an asshole I guess

After reading "The Bully Pulpit" I think we are pretty far away from revolution. People aren't throwing bombs at the police yet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

1/30/2014 11:59:04 AM

I think it's kinda fucked up that a lot of people WANT poor people who work shitty jobs for little money to STAY poor.

1/30/2014 1:54:59 PM

i want to enjoy cheap goods and services

and i want society to help poor people in more efficient ways

1/30/2014 2:00:26 PM

I would support a basic income if it replaced all other welfare programs.

The problem is that, even with a basic income, you're going to have people that habitually make poor decisions. There will still be people that spend every dollar on lottery tickets before they buy groceries for their kids, and then we'll need another program to take care of those people.

I don't buy the claim that these poor decision makers are the exception and not the rule. Poor financial planning and decision making is pervasive in this country, even outside of the lower class. There are people bringing in 250,000 a year that still manage to get crippled by debt.

1/30/2014 2:50:34 PM

if they can't be helped, why would it bother you that they wouldn't be helped?

1/30/2014 2:57:16 PM