Para-Ord quality aught to be comparable to Springfield's loaded models...so it's really just up to you.
If I were you and a double stacked Para fit my hand then I'd get it in a hearbeat and sell the Springfield. It'd be a nice little memento.

If you want to get rid of the Springfield I'll trade you an excellent condition 2007 production 3rd gen Glock 22 with night sights and 3 mags plus $200 worth of 40S&W ammo.

3/31/2010 2:11:05 PM

Duke, for what it's worth;

I got one of those deployment special Paras because I like 1911s, and it's a keepsake. That being said it is the worst gun I've ever owned.

Failure to Feed and Eject are the main problems. One day I had a live round get stuck in the chamber, with the whole slide locked up. That took a lot of cursing, prying, and at least 4 hands to fix. I'm told Para Customer Service can be rough on your pistol as well. One consumer sent his back, only to receive it with the finish scratched. He said it finally shot fine so he was satisified.

If you want it for what it is, I'd buy it, and look into buying Wolff springs for the magazines http://www.gunsprings.com/Semi-Auto%20Pistols/PARA-ORDNANCE/P-12/cID1/mID48/dID193

However I wouldn't buy it as a replacement for your Springfield.

3/31/2010 4:05:51 PM

What mags do Paras ship with?

3/31/2010 4:27:41 PM

I have over 1k pieces of brass, probably between 15-1700 in actuality.
9mm, .40, .357sig, and .38
Needs to be picked up tonight or any time tomorrow.
FOR FREE

3/31/2010 4:38:48 PM

^sorted/can I just get the .40?

3/31/2010 5:59:52 PM

I've never heard of anything but problems from people who owned Paras.

3/31/2010 6:04:40 PM

Quote :

"I'm not a fan of steel targets, but that is simply because I've seen too many youtube videos like these:"

Because fucking goddamn morons shoot fixed steel targets with centerfire rifle rounds at relatively close range.

Being a fucking moron makes steel dangerous. I shoot falling steel up as close as 15 feet with 9mm FMJ and never get hit with more than a little spall (eye and ears are important here folks).

[Edited on March 31, 2010 at 6:34 PM. Reason : .]

3/31/2010 6:31:59 PM

Maxima, I would love some 9mm brass, but I won't be back in town until Sunday

3/31/2010 7:56:54 PM

Quote :

"If you want to get rid of the Springfield I'll trade you an excellent condition 2007 production 3rd gen Glock 22 with night sights and 3 mags plus $200 worth of 40S&W ammo."

Glocks aren't really my thing. I'd be more interested in trading for a pocket pistol (+ cash), like a Ruger LCP or a Taurus. Might also be able to get me interested in another SIG.

3/31/2010 9:45:04 PM

brass gone.

3/31/2010 11:01:25 PM

picked up my CHP today and went to a few gun shops here in goldsboro. i've decided that the pocket pistols are just too small for my hands and i'm gonna have to come up with something different. i held a bunch of guns and i liked the Walther PK380 and Bersa Thunder 380CC the best. any opinions?

4/1/2010 3:32:54 PM

Did you look at the Glock 26/27 or the XD sub-contacts?

4/1/2010 4:01:58 PM

This thing arrived yesterday - it sucks. Sending it back.. The target/animal is smaller than my friggin hand, I thought it would be much larger

4/1/2010 4:03:16 PM

^^no, i'm kinda on a budget with marriage and moving and that type stuff coming very soon

^make your own target

[Edited on April 1, 2010 at 4:04 PM. Reason : afds]

4/1/2010 4:04:15 PM

i think i'm gonna go with the bersa thunder 380CC. it's $271 and will do fine until i get money for something nicer later this year.

4/1/2010 9:08:42 PM

$271 eh... not bad I guess

4/1/2010 9:18:15 PM

i don't know what they usually go for new

4/1/2010 9:23:10 PM

pm replied. I'm not sure on the CC version, that could be a fair price

4/1/2010 9:26:14 PM

i think the main difference on the CC model is the extremely low profile sights. it may be a little slimmer. i'm pretty sure i could carry it in my front jeans pocket.

4/1/2010 9:34:52 PM

yeh, you can (unless you're really cowboyed up). I carry my regular in my pockets

4/1/2010 9:37:43 PM

Quote :

"I'm not a fan of steel targets, but that is simply because I've seen too many youtube videos like these:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPZyBLv0ijc&feature=fvw

I like this one the best, fucking French Canadians. Only there would you hear "Oh Tabernac".

Shit dude, the more I look at it the more I think this here may have happened at the same fucking range! Fucking French Canadians dude. Another "tabernac" sayin' motherfucker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cqAffzjUrU&NR=1

4/1/2010 9:50:39 PM

fuck it i think i'm gonna get the kahr CW9. cheaper ammo, stainless and polymer vs. blued so it'll handle sweat better, and i'll pretty much be set on a CC piece instead of settling now and buying something better later.

4/1/2010 9:58:23 PM

The CW9 is a decent buy man.

Do the Kahr's still have peening issues? I always liked them but hesitated to buy one because I kept hearing about that shit.

4/1/2010 9:59:51 PM

what i read says they've taken care of those issues. even on the older models, they were aware of the problems and would fix it no questions asked.

4/1/2010 10:08:20 PM

Cool, then it's a good buy IMO. Kahr pistols have always been ones I've liked for CC purposes. The PM9 is probably the one I'd choose but I have a hard time concealing most anything, so that appeals to me because it's about as small as I can go whilst retaining my favorite handgun caliber and good reliability. Right now I carry the G26 and that's as big as I can possibly go. It's too big honestly, but I like having 11rds in the gun and the fact that I can easily carry a 17rd backup mag. I also like the fact that it's fucking rock solid in terms of being able to fire +P loads and it's reliable as hell (It has never once failed on me).

4/1/2010 10:13:26 PM

only thing is i haven't been too fond of the DA only handguns i've fired before :\

4/1/2010 10:23:15 PM

Yeah, that's another advantage for the Glock IMO. It's not SA/DA, but it's kind of between them. The trigger pull is not long at all and the reset is really short. If you put in a 3.5# connector then the trigger really isn't bad at all.

But, the Kahr is a gun that's probably going to be used up close and personal. Practice with it, for sure, but remember you're probably going to be using it at 7yds and under in most self defense encounters. I guess it's possible you'd need to make a longer range shot if you encountered a mass murderer and felt like taking the risk to save some people, but if someone is after YOU then you'll probably be shooting them up close cause if they're far away and they don't have a ranged weapon, then you'll usually want to at least make some attempt to get away for legal reasons.

4/1/2010 10:31:25 PM

lol yeah, good point, i'm not getting it to have fun with, so the DAO should be fine.

4/1/2010 11:10:23 PM

bought it, now i gotta figure out how i'm gonna carry it

4/2/2010 6:00:59 PM

in your right hand, with a hood over your head and sunglasses on?

4/2/2010 7:13:17 PM

I bought a Ruger KP95 today. It's my first centerfire pistol(or firearm, for that matter) so it was a blast to shoot. I only put about 30 rounds through it so far, but it runs/shoots beautifully.

4/2/2010 7:21:19 PM

^^ok, now i gotta figure out how i'm gonna conceal it

[Edited on April 2, 2010 at 10:09 PM. Reason : any suggestions on where to start?]

4/2/2010 9:45:58 PM

Strong side IWB son. It's simple and effective. The narrow width of the Kahr makes it very suitable for this. If it were a PM9 I'd tell you to carry it in your god damned pocket depending upon your choice of pants and level of tightness of pant son.

4/2/2010 10:10:54 PM

iwb holster suggestions?

4/3/2010 6:00:03 PM

what is your price range?

4/3/2010 8:26:52 PM

crossbred

make sure you have a good carry belt or almost no holsters will be comfortable. crossbred makes some great belts, IMO.

4/3/2010 9:12:35 PM

^^whatever it takes to get something comfortable

^thanks. i'll check it out.

4/3/2010 9:40:00 PM

Yes, crossbreed supertuck is probably one of the most comfortable IWB holsters out there. It's a bulky piece by itself but it is made for lots of carry and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better IWB holster. They're hand made and for a very reasonable price.

Too bad they're fucking covered in the maker's religious symbols. I refuse to buy them for this exact reason, I will not advertise his religion. I mean, he goes way the fuck out of his way to say "I'M CHRISTIAN" and then he puts his christian bullshit on your fucking holster. I'd ask him to make me a sterile holster but somehow I think he'd refuse to make a holster for an agnostic atheist and I'm not going to lie about being religious. I guess I could just say "I need the holster to not have ANY symbols whatsoever" but I don't feel like lying when he asks why. I'm just not trying to be like that, particularly on a subject I feel very strongly about.


I use a fucking $6 holster that I modified and it works fine for what I do. If you're going to open carry and you can find one for your gun (I haven't checked whether or not they make them for Kahrs), the Blackhawk Serpa is my only recommendation. You can actually conceal pretty easily with the Serpa in the winter too btw. I absolutely LOVE that holster, but its design (The release mechanism) will not allow for IWB carry.

4/4/2010 7:15:04 AM

no blackhawk serpas for any of the kahrs

4/4/2010 9:20:05 AM

Blackhawk makes a shit product with poor support for the industry, Safariland is a good mass market choice

4/4/2010 10:51:26 AM

Wow, I've never had any problems with my Serpa holster or pistol mag holder and I've been using them for years. I know quite a few people who use them as well and I've never heard any of them say anything negative.

What experience have you had with the Serpa?


I generally take a step back when somebody comes on a forum and makes blanket statements about an entire company by saying "they make a shit product", etc. I had S&W model 642 revolver fail to fire 3-4 out of 5 rounds in the cylinder right out of the box and I sent it back and it still wasn't performing properly. I had multiple people fire it, including people with a lot more revolver experience than I had (I was admittedly new to revolvers at the time). That doesn't mean I go around saying that every product S&W produces is "shit" or that they don't have good customer service. They actually got it back EXTREMELY quickly and they did replace numerous parts (Replaced the yolk and sear), I think it was something else and had I continued to send it back it probably would have been handled eventually. I just decided not to deal with it and I sold it. It's just one data point man, hardly grounds for claiming their entire product line is "shit".

For the most part EVERY company produces something that sucks. That's just how it is son. I really hate to be brand myopic. I'm sure safariland produces something shitty as well dude. If a company makes a good item, I will promote that item. If they make a shit item, I will not promote that item. But I try to avoid making these wide, sweeping statements (Good or bad) about the entire product line of a company just because of one poorly designed (Or properly designed) product or some experience I had.

If there is this huge consensus that Blackhawk makes garbage holsters, then ok, but I haven't seen it. Feel free to point me to the source of your information though. The thing I like about their holsters is the method of extraction. It is very fast and very easy. I don't like fumbling around with a strap in order to extract my firearm. I actually don't like ANY retention device besides basic friction when carrying concealed. When carrying openly I have yet to see any holster I'd prefer over a Serpa.

It's also worth mentioning that different things work for different people. Just because you don't like the retention mechanism of the Serpa or just because you trained with a different method and want to stick with it does NOT mean that the Serpa sucks. If someone is just starting out with carrying a handgun, the Serpa is the way to go IMO. It's a faster system and forces your finger into the correct, safe location in order to extract the pistol. It helps train you to adopt the proper hold and is safer IMO. It's also not as easy for idiots to figure out how to extract and unless they come up from directly behind you, they'll have trouble actuating the button even if they know where it is.

4/4/2010 11:22:48 AM

A SWAT Cop last year was shot twice in the spine when a hostile rolled up on him. His weapon caught in the retention system of the holster. The holster was a Serpa.

A holster to guys like him are duty gear, it's not to wear just for IDPA and whatnot. The equipment has to work right every time. There is zero tolerance for failure.

The folks I do most of my outfitting with are here in Fayetteville:

http://www.greygrouptraining.com/ Give them a call and tell them you are thinking about purchasing a Blackhawk holster. They'll hook you up with the word, because they supply cool guy gear to actual cool guys that use it and report back. They don't carry Blackhawk products because Blackhawk is to tactical gear as Walmart is to retail. That's if you can humble yourself enough to ask the professionals.

But if you want to wear a Serpa on the range or whatever, go ahead. I have cheap range holsters too. But I don't take Blackhawk products to work, and neither do most folks that know.

[Edited on April 4, 2010 at 4:22 PM. Reason : asdf]

4/4/2010 4:18:15 PM

Interesting, I've yet to hear of a failure of this type. In fact, looking at the mechanism I don't see how it really could fail in such a manner. I can see someone's fine motor skills failing pretty easily in such a situation though. Either way, good to get a data point on the subject.

Way to be a stuck up bitch with that "humble" shit btw, I'm not sure how you apparently know my credentials, level of experience, profession, etc just from this short conversation we've had. I just wondered where you were getting this info from and I'm simply trying to point out to you that calling an entire product line "shit" is never a good idea unless you have extensive experience with the entire product line. Anyway, I was not being rude or condescending towards you. I simply asked where you got the information from so that I could take a look at it as well. It's funny that you honestly think I don't understand that your equipment has to work every time when it's life or death on the line. Like I said before, my S&W 642 failed to fire 3-4 out of every 5 rounds. If this cop died because his backup S&W Model 642 failed to fire, would you be calling every S&W product shit, out of curiosity?

Again, as far as "humbling myself" by calling "professionals", you can ahead shove that ego right back up your own ass son. First of all, I don't need to call someone else to know how a product I have years of experience with functions. Secondly, I know a number of "professionals" who use these holsters without issue. Also note that you're giving me a bunch of third hand reports rather than your own experience. Not to say you're lying (Why would you?), but at the same time, you obviously have no experience with the holster and you're going on other people's reports. I carry for the same reason you do I assume, to save my own life in a situation where it's come down to me or them. I don't fuck with unreliable shit, which is why I carry Glock pistols. Not because a bunch of other douchebags told me to, but because none of my Glock 9mm's have EVER failed on me. I immediately got rid of every gun I ever bought that had problems and I only keep stupidly reliable items. Oh and by the way, I've actually bought a lot of reliable shit at walmart, oddly enough.

Also note that I actually stated that I don't like ANY kind of retention if I can help it (For the exact reason of problems with extraction when you need it the most), but if I'm OCing I'm not going without retention of some kind son. I can't stand the attitude that being a cop or whatever the fuck makes someone so much more knowledgeable in everything than anyone else. Fuck that noise. If you have real, firsthand experience I'd like to hear about it. If you have a wealth of information concerning these things failing, I'd also like to hear about it. Obviously I'm not going to waste my time calling some place son. If you can point me to something clear I will certainly believe you. Hell, I already believe it's possible for one to fail. It's possible for the gun itself to fail. It's possible for a snap to somehow fail. All kinds of things can happen to fuck you over in life, because NOTHING is a guarantee. But I've had nothing but good luck with my Serpa and you're the first person I've ever heard complaining about one (And you've never even used it apparently?).

4/4/2010 4:23:21 PM

A) Strong opinions evoke strong reactions
B) I'm not a cop
C) Good luck with your Serpa, man.

4/4/2010 5:13:01 PM

I'm not even going to read your last post because I don't feel like dragging this thing out and I'm fine with you not using a Serpa. I have no interest in converting you or anyone else away from what works for you/them. I simply gave someone who is relatively new to this (NRR) some things to look into. I responded to him to put in a data point, which is all each person's opinion is. I don't go around trashing or promoting entire product lines unless I have extensive experience or research to back it up. My experience with the Serpa (Years of it) has been excellent and this is the data point I wished to provide. If you want to act like it only fails when you need it, that's fine. I happen to believe that it's probably going to fail at the range and in competition as much as it will on the street (Assuming you aren't damaging it someone by rolling around in it and shit or beating it against things, which I don't do to my guns or holsters). I must admit, I've never actually used the holster for anything other than carrying on the street, so I wouldn't know if it would fail more or less at the range or in competition, lol.

Note that it doesn't really matter, since they don't make a holster for his firearm anyway. It also didn't really matter because he was asking for ways to conceal it and the serpa is not a concealment holster for obvious reasons. It was more of a side note, mentioning an open carry retention holster that has worked well for me. If you noticed, I actually recommended the crossbreed supertuck, a handmade IWB holster, so long as he can accept it being covered in religious symbols that reflect the beliefs of the maker and may or may not reflect NRR's own religious beliefs.

This whole thing reminds me of what I hate about forums. You can't say anything without somebody coming in and talking down to you about it and essentially telling you you're a fool for owning or using it. The best part is, often the people making these comments have little to no experience with the item they're trashing. Even if you're right, to me being right for the wrong reasons is no more respectable than being wrong for the wrong reasons. In either case, it was a baseless assertion. I've found that the best way to figure out what works for you is to do the research and also try different things out. I don't like third hand reports, I like lots of personal experience to back up statements as extreme as the ones you've made about their entire product line and the company as a whole. That's just me though.

4/4/2010 5:28:01 PM

suggestions for a 9 mm personal defense round?

i found some PMC 9 mm FMJ for $11.50/50 rds. good price?

4/5/2010 11:07:59 PM

Currently I am loaded with Powerball ammo...

4/5/2010 11:33:27 PM

how long is the barrel?

short barrel gold dots are what i would recommend for your pistol.

item number 23611 9mm Luger +P 124 GDHP-SB 20 round box

that's if your pistol is rated for +P ammo. if not, the standard 9mm short barrel is good too.

OR

RA9124TP 9mm 124 gr. +P Ranger T-Series 50 round box.

though out of a barrel that is less than 4" inches, you might want a lighter bullet.

[Edited on April 5, 2010 at 11:50 PM. Reason : ?]

4/5/2010 11:46:16 PM

3.6"

4/6/2010 8:19:45 AM

set em up

4/6/2010 10:01:26 AM