^^did you see the duke game? or the marquette game? or the florida game?

1/27/2009 11:20:17 AM

^ Three games in the whole season? did you see clemson, FSU, Loyola? I have no problem with those losses that you pointed out, but you have to admit that, during most of the games this year we have given a subpar effort...

1/27/2009 11:28:44 AM

mother fuck

1/27/2009 11:30:50 AM

http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/college/ncsu/story/1383105.html

Lowe apparently is going to make some changes.

Quote :

"Coach Sidney Lowe said Monday that he's considering using 6-foot-10 Ben McCauley, 6-9 Brandon Costner and 6-7 Tracy Smith on the floor together more in the future."

Quote :

""The thing now is trying to find eight guys that are going to be productive on a consistent basis," Lowe said. "That's what we have to do, and just rotate those guys.""

I think most people who were critical of Lowe's substitution patterns would applaud this move. I'm just wondering why it took so long to make that change.

1/27/2009 11:38:45 AM

has anyone been paying attention to the Big East standings? 1st place in the Big East: Marquette...18-2 overall, 7-0 in the Big East...the same "shitty" Marquette team that Lowe "choked" against by "allowing" an off balance buzzer beating 3 pointer

WE SUCK SO BAD, WE LOST ON A LAST SECOND SHOT TO THE #1 TEAM IN THE BIG EAST, FIRE LOWE

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 11:45:28 AM

Mon, Dec 22 Marquette - Raleigh, N.C. 7:00 PM 65 - 68 (L)

*2008-2009 - We were close

1/27/2009 11:46:50 AM

^^^I'd venture to guess it had to do a little with

Quote :

".....productive on a consistent basis"

During the early part of the year one guy would step up one night and then completely disappear the next aka fells syndrome

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason : fells]

1/27/2009 11:52:37 AM

Quote :

"The thing now is trying to find eight guys that are going to be productive on a consistent basis," Lowe said. "That's what we have to do, and just rotate those guys."

My point was why is this the thing to do now and not from day one.

I guess he was hoping to play 10-12 guys so everyone was fresh. But it was obvious (to most people anyway) that that strategy wasn't working early on.

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good move. Just wondering why he made the change now as opposed to before ACC play started.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 11:58 AM. Reason : ^]

1/27/2009 11:56:34 AM

twista, just curious, who are you directing that post to?

1/27/2009 11:56:35 AM

anybody who thinks the marquette loss was a bad loss

1/27/2009 12:05:26 PM

bad loss considering winning that game could sparked a huge season.

that's the issue with this team. they're not motivated and they've given up on the season

1/27/2009 12:16:14 PM

thanks for letting us know of your firsthand knowledge that our team has given up on the season

maybe our players should give up on the wolfpack and just become sundevils fans!

1/27/2009 12:34:35 PM

^ya

1/27/2009 12:42:36 PM

opinion, of course

1/27/2009 12:46:23 PM

What is your opinion based on. These players obviously hustle enough to play really good defense. We don't have this huge amount of squandered talent that you guys all seem to think we have. The talent we do have was all recruited for a different system as well. I am tired of seeing the same things come up and get ignored by everyone. Judging from your posts in the past, Ohboyee, I really don't think you have enough knowledge of the game to be critical of anyone.

1/27/2009 12:55:00 PM

Quote :

"I guess he was hoping to play 10-12 guys so everyone was fresh. But it was obvious (to most people anyway) that that strategy wasn't working early on. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a good move. Just wondering why he made the change now as opposed to before ACC play started."

Did it ever occur to you that we can't settle on a rotation b/c our players are inconsistent as fuck and Lowe is actually trying to find the best guys? Every single player on this team has proven that they should not play, then they come in with a great game, and lowe gets bashed for not playing them more. Then, they get more PT and completely shit the bed.

I would like to see different sub patterns, but you cant blame lowe for the wierd pattern if they players produce one night and don't the next 3 nights.

1/27/2009 1:01:01 PM

None of our players are even in the top ten for any category in the ACC statistically. That points to a LACK OF TALENT!

1/27/2009 2:10:12 PM

^^Yes that has occurred to me. The inconsistent play has been my biggest gripe against Sid. But some players (Smith for one) have played well for most of the season and are still not seeing the playing time that a lot of people think he should.

I think it is valid to question why this change was done now and not before ACC play started. From watching the BC game it's obvious that the inconsistent play is still an issue. But he says he is going to play only 8 players. Why now?

To answer my own question, this team isn't good enough to keep the starters on the bench for 15+ minutes a game. I guess he is finally figuring it out. Just not sure why it took so long.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 2:17 PM. Reason : ^^]

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 2:19 PM. Reason : reword]

1/27/2009 2:16:39 PM

you really can't figure that out for yourself?

oooooh

you're just being a troll fag

round and round we go...

1/27/2009 2:26:57 PM

Quote :

"None of our players are even in the top ten for any category in the ACC statistically. That points to a LACK OF TALENT!"

Wrong.

It's kind of hard to do that when you don't have any players in the top 10 in minutes played.

1/27/2009 2:28:53 PM

It is hard to advocate that any one of our players be on the floor for an entire game. Maybe Costner but he has been getting into a lot of foul trouble and tends to turn over the ball quite a bit. Our starters are not consistently out performing our bench. The reason he has been playing a smaller lineup is we experimented with 3 bigs last year and IT DIDN'T work. Costner and Fells don't do as well against smaller defenders. Mccauley doesn't have an outside shot so the lane gets congested with no room for the bigs to work.

1/27/2009 2:37:00 PM

In conference-only State, we've got Degand and McCauley in assists and Defensive rebounds. I'm not trying to refute the point there, but I went and looked it up so I thought I'd share.

1/27/2009 2:40:21 PM

^^ there is a HUGE difference between a lineup of 3 bigs including two true centers being tried last year on a very limited basis and arguably not working and a lineup of 3 bigs including one true center and a 3-4 combo forward and a true 4 which hasn't been tried yet.

I would still be interested in rolling out a McCauley, Costner, Smith front line especially against big teams like Florida St. I mean, our strength certainly isn't in our guard play, so let's get as many scorers on the floor as we can.

1/27/2009 2:47:24 PM

I guess you mean stats from only ACC conference games. Hopefully that is a sign that Degand is progressing. My only hope for the season has been to be competitive and don't finish last in the league like we did last year. I would like to see us in the ACC/Big Ten challenge next year where we can show off our new recruits.
^ Smith has the skill set of a true center (maybe not the size) he scores from the post and doesn't really have a jumper that I have seen. Really it is exactly like what we tried last year except Costner is healthy and lighter so we might not have such a huge speed mismatch in the SF position.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 2:50 PM. Reason : ^]

1/27/2009 2:47:26 PM

Question for you guys keep blaming the players for us being shitty for 2.5 years, why the fuck do we even have a coach then? It's blatantly obvious that Lowe is in over his head right now. In all of our "good" losses that we've endured, we were out coached down the stretch.

The games where we were winning for a good part of the game or in the games where we started making a comeback, the other coach made coaching adjustments to not allow that to happen. I don't understand how some of you can't see the writing on wall?

Coaching isn't always drawing up a game plan and making an adjustment here or there. In tight games it becomes like a chess match with all the options for zones/presses/best personnel on the court for a given situation. Lowe isn't winning those battles.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 2:55 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 2:52:47 PM

jesus titty fucking christ you people are blind

1/27/2009 3:04:56 PM

So we could make up a team from TWW and win a national championship if we had a great coach. Hmm I guess recruiting really doesn't mean anything does it?

Quote :

"In tight games it becomes like a chess match with all the options for zones/presses/best personnel on the court for a given situation. Lowe isn't winning those battles. "

So let me get this straight. You with your vast basketball experience are able to see this happening. I guess the fact that we are 3rd in the conference in defense means nothing to you? No credit for his adjustment to Rice at halftime of the BC game (roy williams sure couldn't figure that one out). I really want to know how you are able to identify all these instances where he is being out coached? I want you to identify why you think we should be one of the top teams in the ACC with the talent we have and the changes in the system we are trying to create.

1/27/2009 3:05:51 PM

^don't even try to 'splain it to them anymore


I know several people who are not state fans (nor are they UNC/Duke/wake/rival fans) and ask how the fuck we stay in games despite our players sucking so much dick.

These people know basketball, they know coaching, and they think Sidney is getting more out of this team than most coaches would.

So there.

1/27/2009 3:07:44 PM

Quote :

"roy williams sure couldn't figure that one out"

Rice wasn't the only one that was hot in that game. Roy had to worry about their whole team. Rice was the only guy we had to deal with in that game...and we couldn't do it. But I'm not putting a lot of blame on Sid for that...when a guy gets hot, he gets hot. But I think we could have done a little better (first...that double teaming him bringing the ball up worked well for a while...but after it stopped working, we should have gotten away from it...but kept it til the end). We also hit an offensive snag mid-way through the half that we couldn't get out of and we didn't change anything in the the way we ran our offense to get out of it.

Quote :

"I guess the fact that we are 3rd in the conference in defense means nothing to you?"

People use to say this about Herb...but like our Herb days...this offense is kind of slow and limits possessions. Not saying we don't have a decent defense...because we do...but our offensive pace that limits the possessions of the other team kinda inflates that ranking.

1/27/2009 3:15:11 PM

Quote :

"I really want to know how you are able to identify all these instances where he is being out coached? I want you to identify why you think we should be one of the top teams in the ACC"

Damn you are fucking dense. You think he hasn't been out coached in his 2.5 years being here when he has a 10-27 ACC record? You gave one example where he made a good adjustment and we went on a 16-0 run (that our talentless players [according to you] were able to execute). That sure as fuck doesn't happen often, now does it? More times than not the other coaches make adjustments and we get shut down.

And who the fuck said I think we should be one of the top teams in the ACC? I certainly didn't say that, but I am saying I think we shouldn't be the SHITTIEST team in the ACC for 3 years running.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 3:16 PM. Reason : x]

1/27/2009 3:15:23 PM

Its really too early to say where we're going to be at the end of the season but the big beef I think most of us have is that our team doesn't seem to be particularly improving in any measurable way and is a long way off from where it was the year Herb left office.

This is known as a downward trend.

Now, we can't really say this is Sid's fault, but you can't really deny that this has happened.

1/27/2009 3:15:31 PM

Quote :

"I guess the fact that we are 3rd in the conference in defense means nothing to you?"

I do agree that our defense is much improved over last year, but at the same time that's almost totally negated by the fact that we struggle to break 60 pretty much every conference game

Quote :

"No credit for his adjustment to Rice at halftime of the BC game (roy williams sure couldn't figure that one out)."

Maybe he would deserve some credit if we had won the fucking game, but we didn't so he doesn't. Does anyone really give a shit if we shutdown Rice or any other star if we don't win the game? I for one do not.

1/27/2009 3:20:46 PM

Loyola shut down Curry so their coach gets 3 gold stars and 2 cookies.

1/27/2009 3:26:14 PM

this argument is going in circles.


time to stop


just when you think people can't get any dumber, they do.

1/27/2009 3:27:25 PM

Pretty obvious that to be a successful program you need a combination of talent and coaching, and one can only take you so far without the other.

I think our talent is very average, and I think out coaching is very average. Therefore, our team is average.

One thing I hate though is the assumption that the players aren't trying or don't care. It is easy to mix up frustration and lack of leadership and direction with a lack of effort. I never for once have thought that Lowe and the guys don't want to win, aren't trying to win, and aren't doing all they can to win, I just think they have no idea how to actually win consistently.

1/27/2009 3:34:42 PM

Quote :

"In all of our "good" losses that we've endured, we were out coached down the stretch."

Apparently being outcoached means giving up 30-foot shots to Steph Curry and letting Marquette (the #1 team in the best conference in the country) hit a buzzer beating 3-pointer to beat the Pack

1/27/2009 3:35:37 PM

A good coach would have never let those teams get in a position to score, Twista.


At least that is what the posters who seem to think they know more about coaching than our staff would say.

1/27/2009 3:40:18 PM

Quote :

"this argument is going in circles. time to stop just when you think people can't get any dumber, they do."

I do most of my talking about the previous game. So every now and then both sides get some fresh material.

1/27/2009 3:45:35 PM

there is some truth to that in principle

but i was at the davidson game...the last 3 curry hit was a freak shot...you can't defend that

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 3:46 PM. Reason : ^^]

1/27/2009 3:45:47 PM

You are grasping at straws Twista. Last second shots do not equal "down the stretch". It's foolish to say that Lowe doesn't get out coached more times than not.

It is great that you are able to find such great positives in the cluster fuck of a basketball program we have right now. We both want the program to be successful, but take a step back and look at the situation. The program right now is rock bottom, and it wasn't that way 3 years ago before Lowe took over.

The overwhelming evidence is that Lowe isn't a good coach right now. Of course he could start ascending the college learning curve, but from his NBA head coaching record (one of the worst ever in professional sports) and current record at NC State, there isn't a lot to show that he's going to reverse the trend. Should we give him more time to see if he can turn it around at the college level? Of course we should, but there isn't really anything to look at in the past to make fans optimistic that he can.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 3:48 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 3:46:28 PM

this thread needs to be locked for a week or so. let people cool down and come back to it.

nothing but calling people dumb.

1/27/2009 3:47:50 PM

Quote :

"The program right now is rock bottom, and it wasn't that way 3 years ago before Lowe took over."

fuck 3 years ago...herb left, get the fuck over it

as far as being rock bottom, i disagree...did you watch us in the early and mid 90s? that was rock bottom

and dont bring up Sid's NBA coaching record because it shows how little you know...he was the coach of the Timberwolves the first few years of their existance...new franchises are going to go 20-62 and 25-57 or whatever records he had...thats like saying Tim Floyd is a shitty coach because he coached the Bulls right after Jordan and Pippen left

and I'm not trying to give us moral victories for the Marquette and Davidson losses...but they were both close losses to very good teams...its not always about being outcoached or outcoaching someone...when you lose a game by 4-5 points its not being outcoached, its being outplayed

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 3:51 PM. Reason : .]

1/27/2009 3:50:13 PM

Quote :

"fuck 3 years ago...herb left, get the fuck over it"

ok? I'm over it now. We still got substantially worse since Lowe took over.

Quote :

"and dont bring up Sid's NBA coaching record because it shows how little you know...he was the coach of the Timberwolves the first few years of their existance"

The Timberwolves entered the NBA in 1989. Lowe took over as head coach in 1993. But I digress, since I know so little.

Quote :

"when you lose a game by 4-5 points its not being outcoached, its being outplayed"

This is 100% wrong. Sometimes it is being outcoached.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 3:59 PM. Reason : x]

1/27/2009 3:57:18 PM

the one difference between us and the teams that have beaten us is that "down the stretch" they have guys who can handle the basketball and make things happen. The only guys that can make things happen for us (sometimes) can't handle the basketball, and you're basically asking a freshman and a junior coming off and ACL injury to win the fucking game for you...which no team in america can do unless the freshman is Derrick Rose and the junior was an all american before he got hurt.

the that in your fucking skulls. You can't say we're being out-coached if you don't have the personel to adjust to what the other team throws at you.

Quote :

"ok? I'm over it now. We still got substantially worse since Lowe took over."

there's the thing you dumbfuck, we were bound to get worse losing 4 senior starters and 2 major contributors who would have been juniors. Then the year after that, we lose the one guy who held the team together and you act like its Lowe's fault that we're not winning 25 games a year and going to the tourney.

Its beyond comprehension that you people don't understand that.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 4:02 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2009 4:00:05 PM

^^How is it 100% wrong if it is only sometimes?

1/27/2009 4:02:34 PM

^ because he said it absolutely. And it's not true.

^^ here is the thing wolfAApack, I never said we should be making the tourney and winning 25 games per year. I never said I wanted Lowe fired. I did say, however, that we shouldn't be one of the shittiest team in the league for 3 years running.

Sorry that you think I'm such a shitty dumbfuck fan for not wanting our team to be a laughing stock in the ACC. I want what everybody wants, which is to win, but I have a differing opinion on our current coach. It's not like I'd be pissed off or anything if Lowe got the team to all of a sudden start clicking and winning games like I believe they are capable of.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 4:21 PM. Reason : x]

1/27/2009 4:05:23 PM

you know whats funny? Its that people aren't looking at our situation and going "haha they are such a waste of talent with such a shitty coach i can't believe they are 10-27 in his tenure there"


Now, people look at GT and laugh at their waste of talent.

Your UNC friends are laughing at us because we're miserable, but people who know basketball aren't laughing.

If you want to live in that fantasy world where you're miserable all the time, go ahead. I'm just trying to convince you that our position is pretty much expected right now, and you should give it some time before jumping down coach Lowe's throat.

If you read my posts in this thread, I even said that if we're not improved next year I'll be on your side, but just give it a rest already. Its not going to get better by you people coming to the boards and bitching about Lowe....and I guarantee you that IF something were to happen to him between now and the end of his 4th year, we WILL be the laughing stock of the ACC, the country, and the world because the hole we'll be digging ourselves out of will be too deep. At least right now we're not staring 4-5, or 10 years of agony in the face. Those great recruits we have verbaled and signed? We'll never see them. We won't be recruiting the likes of Derrick Favors and John Wall. We're staring at one more year of a shitty record, and then possibly a bright future. Like I say, if I'm wrong by the end of next season, fire the mother fucker, but until then just give it a rest.

I just want to give him a chance because I've seen flashes of a great coach and a great recruiter, and I understand that we're not in a good position right now, but it looks like we're on the way out if you can see past the W/L record and actually look at it objectively.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 4:33 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2009 4:28:54 PM

Quote :

"but people who know basketball aren't laughing."

This is your argument? That you know basketball more than the ones who suspect Lowe isn't a good coach? Ok.

Quote :

"If you want to live in that fantasy world where you're miserable all the time, go ahead."

Yes, I've been miserable for 3 years now during basketball season. I'm not afraid to admit that. Blind optimism (unless you know basketball) isn't any better than being realistic.

Quote :

"I'm just trying to convince you that our position is pretty much expected right now, and you should give it some time before jumping down coach Lowe's throat."

You thought we'd be one of the shittiest teams in the ACC by year #3 of Lowe's tenure? I highly doubt that.

Quote :

"and I guarantee you that IF something were to happen to him between now and the end of his 4th year, we WILL be the laughing stock of the ACC, the country, and the world because the hole we'll be digging ourselves out of will be too deep."

That's funny, but not true. I don't want Lowe fired after this season regardless of the rest of the season., but I don't think the WORLD would laugh at us for firing a coach at irrelevant NC State because he has underperformed in 3 years.

Quote :

"At least right now we're not staring 4-5, or 10 years of agony in the face."

Pure speculation. We just might be staring at 4-5 years of agony in the face, who knows?

But most of the argument is pure speculation, and I think fans have a right to critique a coach who has underperformed in his first 3 years. It isn't unheard of, no matter what University you are talking about.

1/27/2009 4:44:49 PM

alright, i just got a whiff of clairvoyance.

Sid is going to do what he said and play 8, at most 9 players, with the starters getting a bulk of the minutes.

We're going to do the unthinkable and win.

and then this thread will be full of asshats saying I Told You So with tons of

and then people will bitch about people not enjoying a rare win.

1/27/2009 4:45:25 PM

Quote :

"Lowe apparently is going to make some changes."

And that's why, despite sucking so bad right now, that I am more excited about Lowe than I ever was with Herb at the helm.

Herb was known for being obstinate. He was a stubborn shmuck who never made any changes, even though the program had plateaued. Everyone (but him apparently) knew his offense sucked, and it took him getting ousted from his job to freaking scrap that piece of crap. (ya i know he left, but that's because most people wanted him gone.)

Lowe on the other hand wants to win more than anyone and is willing to try new things to get this program where it's supposed to be. He isn't the most knowledgeable college bball coach. I think we can all admit that and even should have expected that. However, I can have hope with Lowe. Yes, of course he waited too long to figure out his substitution patterns were crap, but he did finally figure it out, and he's doing something about it. That is a breath of fresh of air in my opinion. So there is always that hope that maybe he can turn this thing around-something I never felt with Herb.

He is not a genius college bball coach right now by any means. But I can live with that. I know we shouldn't be the training grounds for any basketball coach. But we are. And I can live with that. Why? Because with his awesome recruiting abilities (proven), combined with his passion (proven), his willingness to find what works (sort of proven), his increasing familiarity with the college game, and hopefully increasing ability to coach the college game, that is enough for me to believe again!

In no way am I claiming he has demonstrated that he is a great coach. But you can win in college basketball with great recruiting and mediocre coaching. Plus, I have hope- with tidbits like Lowe's latest changes- that he someday can become a great coach as well as a great recruiter. And that, my friends, is enough for me to give Sid a chance.

[Edited on January 27, 2009 at 4:49 PM. Reason : ]

1/27/2009 4:45:33 PM