8mm

3/24/2008 5:49:52 PM

I still don't think you'd see an increase in shootings just to mug. On the whole that jump from mugger to killer is a pretty big one which certainly seems to be supported by the fact that most gun defenses end without a single shot being fired.

3/24/2008 6:00:42 PM

Quote :

"LOL YEA LETS HAVE A BUNCH OF 21-22 YEAR OLDS RUNNING AROUND CAMPUS WITH PISTOLS LOLOL"

okay, you want to hold the debate to those over 21+ ... fine, whatever.

so we won't consider that the increased availability of registered weapons on campus will necessarily increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus, in addition to the access of registered legal weapons by unregistered persons.

what else would you like to be removed from consideration:

that the higher-level judgement centers of the brain aren't fully developed until early- to mid-20's...

that the onset of paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorders tend to occur in the early- to mid-20's.

that random campus shootings tend to be enacted by guys in their early to mid-20's (often grad students) who have never had a criminal infraction. in short, campus shooters tend to be the demographic who could most easily apply for and receive a CCP

arming cocky undergrads and stressed grad students sure sounds like a wonderful idea to me.

bring 'em on.

3/24/2008 6:13:59 PM

Quote :

"okay, you want to hold the debate to those over 21+ ... fine, whatever. so we won't consider that the increased availability of registered weapons on campus will necessarily increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus, in addition to the access of registered legal weapons by unregistered persons. what else would you like to be removed from consideration: that the higher-level judgement centers of the brain aren't fully developed until early- to mid-20's... that the onset of paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorders tend to occur in the early- to mid-20's. that random campus shootings tend to be enacted by guys in their early to mid-20's (often grad students) who have never had a criminal infraction. in short, campus shooters tend to be the demographic who could most easily apply for and receive a CCP arming cocky undergrads and stressed grad students sure sounds like a wonderful idea to me. bring 'em on."

how would allowing CHL holders to carry on campus increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus? well first there is no registering guns so that doesnt matter. in north carolina you have to have a pistol permit to get a pistol but that does not mean you register it. since i am from texas i can buy a pistol from another individual (in texas) and there needs to be no paper work done what-so-ever. but anyways back to my point, how would this create a larger number of illegal weapons on campus when the law would only say that CHL holders could carry on campus? if they are carrying on them it is very unlikely that they would be stolen and anyone who shelled out the money for their carry gun is going to want to hold on to it so them getting stolen wouldnt be a problem. the only argument you have is guns being in the dorms. of course you would have to be a 21 year old living in a dorm with a CHL to pose this threat. chances are that there are VERY few of these types. also like i said before someone who paid a lot of money for their gun is going to want to keep it so if by some slim chance the above specifications were met then im sure they would go through the process of obtaining a safe to keep it in.

next, why does it matter that all these brain functions/disorders are not developed by this point? a 21 year old with a CHL can still carry across the street from the school and a lot of other places so why would being in school make the person all of a sudden go crazy and start shooting people?

last, if someone wants to shoot up campus do you really think the fact that it is illegal to have a gun on campus would stop them? "oh no i wanted to go on a mass murder spree but since i am not allowed to have my gun on campus i guess i will just forget it." if someone wants to kill someone obviously laws forbidding them to carry in a certain location are not going to stop them. oh and one more thing this wouldnt be arming cocky undergrads or stressed out grad students, all it would do is allow people who already can carry a concealed handgun many places, the availability the carry on campus.

3/24/2008 7:55:43 PM

Quote :

"so we won't consider that the increased availability of registered weapons on campus will necessarily increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus,"

How does it follow that allowing CCPs to carry on campus will increase the number of illegal weapons on campus? Would adding more police to campus do the same? Also note that only Durham County can require to to register a weapon (and only hand guns), all other weapons around the state of NC are by definition unregistered.

Quote :

"in addition to the access of registered legal weapons by unregistered persons."

As a general rule, Concealed Carry implies that one is carrying the weapon (hence the carry part), so the only way you're going to give access of legal weapons to illegal persons is either for them to steal it off of a person (and thus that person has failed at concealed carry and broken a law) or for it to be given to the illegal person (again a violation of the law). If you're concerned with thefts out of dorms, I certainly would have no problem with forbidding the storage of any firearm in shared rooms, but beyond that, you're not going to have any more ready access than anywhere else that CCP is permissible. Perhaps less so as I would wager the number of people older than 21 is rather small, you're talking on average seniors and grad students.

Quote :

"that the higher-level judgement centers of the brain aren't fully developed until early- to mid-20's..."

Irrelevant, they are allowed to carry everywhere else, what makes campus so special?

Quote :

"that the onset of paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorders tend to occur in the early- to mid-20's. "

Again, Irrelevant, they can carry everywhere else, what makes allowing them to carry on campus any more dangerous?

Quote :

"that random campus shootings tend to be enacted by guys in their early to mid-20's (often grad students) who have never had a criminal infraction. in short, campus shooters tend to be the demographic who could most easily apply for and receive a CCP "

Random campus shootings also tend to be are enacted by people violating the laws currently against concealed carry on campus, therefore the law is ineffective in stopping these people.

Quote :

"arming cocky undergrads and stressed grad students sure sounds like a wonderful idea to me. "

Again, they are already armed everywhere else. Do you suddenly lose all rational thought when you step on to campus?

3/24/2008 8:06:48 PM

Quote :

" okay, you want to hold the debate to those over 21+ ... fine, whatever. so we won't consider that the increased availability of registered weapons on campus will necessarily increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus, in addition to the access of registered legal weapons by unregistered persons. what else would you like to be removed from consideration: that the higher-level judgement centers of the brain aren't fully developed until early- to mid-20's... that the onset of paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorders tend to occur in the early- to mid-20's. that random campus shootings tend to be enacted by guys in their early to mid-20's (often grad students) who have never had a criminal infraction. in short, campus shooters tend to be the demographic who could most easily apply for and receive a CCP arming cocky undergrads and stressed grad students sure sounds like a wonderful idea to me. bring 'em on. "

Yeah, holding the debate to those 21+ makes sense since they are the only ones that can obtain a CCW permit except in very rare and extreme cases.

I like your logic here. More legal weapons = more illegal weapons? How exactly does that work again? There aren't too many students that are 21 and up that live on campus so where exactly would they be losing their guns? What, you think they'll just fall out while walking across campus? And how are all of these people without a CCW permit getting access to these guns? Is there going to be a campus-wide "Let someone borrow your gun Day" or something?

higher level brain function from EARLY to MID twenties. Hmm... 21 seems to fit right in there. Obvoiusly that's not what's meant though, right? It definitely meant 22+.

Onset of disorders... great. What's your point?

You're trying to use some logic here and I applaud you for that. Unfortunately, it's just not working for you.

Exercise: A 23 year old develops severe depression during his 2 year of Grad school. He just can't take it any more. He decides that he's going to kill himself but first, he's going to kill a bunch of his fellow students so that he gets noticed. So, this student:

A) Goes to PDHSC and signs up for a CCW permit class, pays $250, and gets on the 4 week waiting list. After completing the course a month later, he drives to the Wake County Sherrif's Department and submits his application for a CCW permit. After he submits the application and pays his $80 fee, he walks next door to get fingerprinted. Once he's finished, he goes home and merrily waits for 6-10 weeks for a call saying that his permit is ready. In the meantime, his criminal history & mental evaluations are checked by local, state, & federal agencies. Finally, 3 months later, he gets his chance to go down in a blaze of glory and is elated that he finally has a CCW permit so that he can legally carry a gun onto campus before illegally killing 13 of his classmates.

B) Goes directly to the Wake County Sherriff's department and fills out an application for a Pistol Purchase Permit. After filling out the permit, he gives the clerk $5. After his 7 day waiting period & local background check, he goes to pick up his permit. He then goes to pick up a gun. He's finally ready to go when he has a suddent thought. He realizes that he can't legally carry a gun onto campus so his dreams of a massacre are destroyed. He then goes into his bathroom, puts the gun in his mouth, and pulls the trigger.

C) He drives downtown and finds a pawnshop in a shady neighborhood. He walks inside and checks out a Glock 22 that's sitting in the case. He asks the guy behind the counter how much and tells him he forgot his permit but he'll throw an extra $200 if the owner just forgets about it. He walks out with a gun and drives back to school. He gets to his classroom, pulls out his gun and starts firing randomly, killing 2 people, before taking his own life.


Now, can you figure out the answer? I'll help you out. It's C because the other 2 are just a figment of your fucking imagination.

CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LAW!!!! Making CCW legal on campus isn't putting a gun into a crazy person's hand. There are MUCH easier ways to obtain a gun and they sure as hell aren't going to care about the legality of it. If you want to help a gunman commit mass murder, all you have to do is one thing, keep other people that can hurt him away. Think about it rationally. How often do you hear about a gunshop getting robbed? How about someone shooting up a police station? Military barracks? Kinda odd isn't it? There's all these guns around and for some strange reason, there's not a lot of crime going on.

Sorry but your reasons for not allowing CCW on campus have been tried. Once again these were used by the antis against legalizing CCW in the first place. Statistics have shown that they simply have no merit.

Oh, I almost forgot.... "bring 'em on"

3/24/2008 8:34:50 PM

oh man this is fun

3/24/2008 9:02:39 PM

Quote :

"okay, you want to hold the debate to those over 21+ ... fine, whatever."

well, there isn't any other debate, so yeah.

Quote :

"so we won't consider that the increased availability of registered weapons on campus will necessarily increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus, in addition to the access of registered legal weapons by unregistered persons. "

How in the hell would it increase the number of illegal and unregistered weapons on campus (or anywhere else)?

Also, people with a CCP aren't going to let just anyone get a hold of their guns. This isn't a problem anywhere else, and it won't be on campus.

Quote :

"that the higher-level judgement centers of the brain aren't fully developed until early- to mid-20's... that the onset of paranoid schizophrenia and bipolar disorders tend to occur in the early- to mid-20's."

again, this hasn't proven to be a problem anywhere else. The people in question ALREADY HAVE THE GUNS, and they ALREADY HAVE THE CCP! they're carrying concealed weapons around you and me in all sorts of other places...the argument is just to allow them to do so on campus like they do in other places.

Quote :

"that random campus shootings tend to be enacted by guys in their early to mid-20's (often grad students) who have never had a criminal infraction. in short, campus shooters tend to be the demographic who could most easily apply for and receive a CCP "

wait

so you're saying that if someone decided to go on a campus killing spree, he'd be likely to get a CCP first so he wouldn't tack some misdemeanor weapons charge on top of a dozen counts of murder (never mind that if you DO have a CCP and break any weapons laws, the penalties are harsher than if you just didn't even have the permit). THAT makes a helluva lot of sense.

-pause--NOT!

Quote :

"the only argument you have is guns being in the dorms. of course you would have to be a 21 year old living in a dorm with a CHL to pose this threat. chances are that there are VERY few of these types. also like i said before someone who paid a lot of money for their gun is going to want to keep it so if by some slim chance the above specifications were met then im sure they would go through the process of obtaining a safe to keep it in. "

yep, that's the only problem i thought of, too...and I'd be ok with restricting people from keeping guns in their dorm rooms (although with a safe, i guess it would be ok).

[Edited on March 24, 2008 at 9:40 PM. Reason : ahh, others beat me to the punches]

3/24/2008 9:37:38 PM

Quote :

"GoldenViper: South Texas during the 1910s could be another example of violence in armed populations. Provoked by manipulation from Mexico and longstanding injustices, some Hispanics tried to start a revolution. Both sides had weapons. Lawmen got into gunfights with Hispanic civilians who then became rebel leaders. The prospect of getting shot didn't sufficiently deter people from violence."

I'd argue this was a net benefit, even the type of benefit the 2nd amendment is designed to secure.

Quote :

"GoldenViper: On the other hand, officials did attempt to disarm Hispanics once things got hot. The conflict ended up killing hundreds of Hispanics but only a couple dozen Anglos. It does suggest that being armed won't necessarily protect you from a more powerful group. Hispanic attempts at self-defense seemed to be answered by bloodier and bloodier reprisals."

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

3/24/2008 10:48:53 PM

Quote :

"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

give me liberty or give me death

they'll take my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers

guns don't kill people, people kill people.

2nd amendment protects us from the government

when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns

gun control means being able to hit your target.

Forget about the dog, beware of OWNER!

i disagree with you sir, but i shall defend to the death your right to say it.

May ye be in heaven a week before the Devil knows yer dead.

I may be drunk madam, but you are ugly. And tomorrow I shall be sober.

I'd rather have a frontal bunt front of me than a bottle fuck ... wait, no. aw fuck.






[Edited on March 24, 2008 at 11:41 PM. Reason : ]

3/24/2008 11:36:30 PM

seriously guys

braveheart didnt have guns

and he was kind of badass

right??

3/24/2008 11:42:41 PM

he shot lightning out of his arse.

that's a ranged weapon, and gives materiel advantage against traditional mounted and foot units.

3/24/2008 11:48:34 PM

Did you have some overall point in your posted response? If so, it was totally lost on me.

3/24/2008 11:51:12 PM

point? nah.

don't mind me. i'm just mouthing jingoistic banalities.

3/25/2008 12:06:10 AM

Just to make sure I'm clear on the worldview you're promoting as superior to the sentiment:

Better for the Hispanics GoldenViper mentioned to have simply cowered before the arm of the law?

3/25/2008 12:09:59 AM

apparently. those mexicans are dead and we still own Tejas.

3/25/2008 10:24:40 AM

Quote :

"The problem with you pro-CCW people is that you refuse to keep this argument on the terms of simple principle in that you think your rights in the Constitution (or wherever as a citizen of the US) should allow you to carry guns wherever you please"

Mr Scrumples

Aren't you aware that the constitution doesn't provide for concealed carry permits, but actually taking the necessary concealed carry course and passing both the written and field tests are required before anyone can even be ELIGIBLE for a CCP? After completing the course, you have up to 90 days for the sheriff's department to let you know if they will approve you based on a comprehensive federal background test. And of course you have to be at least 21 years old before you can even take the course.

Your best argument seems to be painting the completely fictional scenario that if CCP jurisdiction were extended onto college campuses, that somehow everyone would have guns. Misleading people isn't the best way to make your point. If you are scared of guns then thats fine, thats your perspective. But please try to quit lying to make your point. Over half of a college's population is under age 21. They are immediately not qualified. Of the people over age 21, if any of them have had a DWI or even a minor charge in the last 3 (i think) years, they are also immediately ineligible.

So quit acting like extending jurisdiction is going to create tens of thousands of psychotic armed kids on every college campus around the country. Its completely false.

3/25/2008 11:37:39 AM

It's complicated. I'm sure many of Hispanics being summarily executed and their families resented the rebels for provoking the Anglos. At least according to Benjamin Johnson, the Bandit War ended up causing Hispanics to realize force was counterproductive. Instead, they turned to legal channels.

If guns incline people toward violence for problem solving, I'd consider that a negative effect. Legitimate grievances or not, armed revolution often fails completely. As in South Texas, it can hurt the people you were trying to help.

3/25/2008 11:43:02 AM

Armed revolution though, is considerably different from armed robbery. More so than criminals, I doubt that armed revolutionaries have much care for the laws in place.

3/25/2008 2:21:45 PM

just in case the counseling center is reading this, i dont even own a gun...you dont have to call me...i didnt call you

3/25/2008 9:01:13 PM

Quote :

"By Matthew Keenan March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Oklahoma lawmakers have a plan to prevent violent outbreaks at colleges: let students carry guns. The state's House of Representatives voted March 13 to allow students and employees who have law-enforcement or military backgrounds, or who undergo training, to carry concealed weapons on public campuses. If the measure is enacted, Oklahoma will be the fourth state where collegians can be armed legally, as a result of legislative, court or administrative action in the past five years. A group called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has sprung up, claiming 23,000 supporters including members at Harvard University, since a senior at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg killed 32 people last April. Legislators in 10 states are considering bills to permit weapons at colleges, pressed by gun-rights proponents. Opponents, including Oklahoma's 25 college presidents, say firearms will make crossfire deaths more likely. ``If it would help for me to get down on my knees to plead with the legislature for the safety of our students, I would do so,'' said David Boren, the president of the University of Oklahoma in Norman. The legislation, which would add 25 schools to the list of those with guns allowed, would invite ``chaos'' during emergencies, said Boren, a former U.S. Democratic senator from the state. Jared Sano, 25, a senior studying business information systems at the University of Utah, in Salt Lake City, said he carries a .45-caliber Heckler & Koch semiautomatic handgun almost all the time on the campus. ``If somebody wants to do harm to me or a loved one, I want to have the ability to protect myself or protect them,'' Sano said. ``I hope and pray there's never a day when I need to use my firearm, but it's just there in case I ever need it.'' State Laws More than 40 states have laws that permit licensed residents to carry concealed firearms. The laws usually exclude campuses from the places guns can be carried. Carrying guns currently is allowed at nine state colleges and universities in Utah; Colorado State University in Fort Collins; and Blue Ridge Community College in Weyers Cave, Virginia. ``It's just a common-sense answer to the campus-university problem as I see it,'' said Jason Murphey, 30, the Republican state representative who sponsored the Oklahoma legislation. Representative Jerry McPeak, a Democrat who voted against the measure, said he learned to shoot at age 6 and has a ``house full of guns.'' Still, McPeak, a former college dean, said he's worried students, especially those who drink alcohol, could make poor choices, he said. Proponents believe ``that the good guys will outshoot the bad guys,'' said the 61-year-old McPeak. ``I'm more concerned about the good guys who make bad decisions with guns.'' The Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence says letting students carry guns will lead to more suicides and firearms accidents. `Laughed Out of the Room' ``Even just a few years ago, anybody who had seriously proposed arming college students with semiautomatic weapons would have been laughed out of the room,'' said Doug Pennington, a spokesman for the Washington-based center. Lawmakers in Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Ohio, Oklahoma and South Carolina were considering school-related gun laws as of March 24, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Proposals in Mississippi, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia and Washington have been defeated. As the U.S. Supreme Court considers the extent to which Americans are free to bear arms, Justice John Paul Stevens this month raised the question of whether a university could ban guns in student dormitories. The court is expected to decide this year whether to uphold a District of Columbia ban on handguns. Membership in Students for Concealed Carry on Campus has more than doubled since Feb. 14, when a gunman killed five people at Northern Illinois University in Dekalb. `Empty Holster Week' The Northern Illinois and Virginia Tech assaults ``are the types of scenarios where someone with a concealed-handgun license would have had ample time to take aim and shoot,'' said W. Scott Lewis, 28, a real-estate agent in Austin, Texas, and a board member for the student organization. While the group has raised just $3,000, from T-shirt sales and donations, its leaders have appeared on CNN and Fox News. It has representatives on more than 200 campuses, including Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The group doesn't know how many students actually carry guns, Lewis said. About 1 percent of residents in so-called right-to-carry states are licensed, he said. Students for Concealed Carry is planning its second ``empty holster week,'' starting April 21. The first, in October, drew about 550 participants on 120 campuses, while 3,000 have signed up for next month's event, the group says. `I Didn't Think It Would Pass' The event was delayed to avoid intruding on memorial events at Virginia Tech, said Ken Stanton, leader of a 140-member chapter there. Stanton, a 30-year-old Ph.D. candidate in engineering education, got a weapons permit and joined the gun- rights group after the attack, which claimed a friend's life. ``I really thought a lot, obviously, about the loss of my friend, and what I would do to protect myself and anybody else from having this happen to them,'' Stanton said. Oklahoma Representative McPeak said there is little support beyond the student group for the campus-weapons bill, which now goes before the state Senate. ``I don't think there's a chance in thunder that it will pass,'' he said. ``But I didn't think it would pass on our side either.''"

3/27/2008 9:52:17 AM

FYI: Technician Viewpoint is looking for a point-counterpoint writer on this topic. (Specifically, I believe the editor would prefer to find someone on the "pro" side).

So... if you're up to it, contact the Viewpoint Editor at viewpoint@technicianonline.com

3/28/2008 1:16:32 PM

i sent them an email...id be up to it

3/28/2008 4:07:38 PM

YOU ARE WRONG

3/28/2008 4:08:44 PM

^^^ i and others have already spelled out the arguments in favor of allowing the practice. the "against" arguments are mostly emotional scare-mongering. there isn't really any debate on a hard, logical level.

go for it. i'd write it myself, but i'm no longer a student.

3/29/2008 3:33:26 AM

My Galco and myself will be attending the open holster prostest. Also if anyone needs a holster I have several that I wouldn't mind donating to the cause, just contact me.

4/6/2008 9:00:19 AM

http://xbox360.ign.com/dor/objects/827005/grand-theft-auto-iv/videos/lcgunclub_041108.html

I saw this video and thought it was funny and this was the most recent 2nd Amendment thread I could find.

4/14/2008 12:42:33 PM

BTTT for next week

4/17/2008 1:06:59 PM

Anyone read the stridently anti-gun article in the this week's Independent?

4/17/2008 2:38:45 PM

I would just like to tell a little story here that happened to me.

I was attending a new years eve party with about 50 people. I only knew about 5 or 6 of them.
I go outside for some fresh air and see a guy leading a girl round the corner walking towards a major yet deserted road. I also see a very cocky/ pissed person heading in that direction quikly. I recognized this person as being a neigbor, and having previously been at the party(drinking). Being the person that I am, I make a b-line towards the follower to see what is going on.

If it is was a relationship issue, I would back off, but no need for fights to break out. Turns out the guy I am talking with thinks he saw the original guy abusing the girl.
The guy I am talking to then proceeds to pull out a pistol and tell me he is going to fix the situation. As we were still walking towards where the couple had gone I was able to convince him that pulling his gun out was a bad idea, that he had been drinking so he shouldn't be carrying, and that I will get someone else to handle the situation.

After a few minutes of coaxing, I get the guy to secure his weapon in his vehicle and return to his own house while I look into what is going on. The point of this was to have the weapon and the inebriated person in different places (yes there is a possibility that he had more weapons in the house). The guy then treatens to call the cops on me for harassing him. Not the most coherent thought process going on.
I return to the house I was at and call the police to let them handle the situation.

Guess what. I didn't freak out in the presence of a hand gun. I didn't pull a weapon and escalate the situation. I let law enforcement handle situations whenever they can.
The guy was breaking the law and had a gun, imagine the possibilities there.

Should I have just ignored the situation? Would there possibly be a dead person down the road?
Regardelss of whether I was armed or not, the situation did not warrant the use or brandishing of a weapon.

[Edited on April 17, 2008 at 6:16 PM. Reason : .]

4/17/2008 6:14:09 PM