Quote :

"Not as corrupt as slaughtering a foreign civilian population"

do you honestly think the military's goal is to murder civilians? do you actually believe that?

or do you think its more along the lines of, destroy military targets, try and secure control of the country, and some innocents will inevitably die along the way

12/3/2010 4:45:39 PM

Quote :

"Hasn't it occurred to you that Iraq has suffered dozens of 9/11's at the hands of the United States?"

Not that I'm a supporter of this war but a likely response to that would be "How many 9/11's did Saddam Hussein inflict upon his people?"

12/3/2010 4:45:42 PM

At what point would corruption be crossing the line? Please don't jump straight to a Hitlerian holocaust...

12/3/2010 4:47:40 PM

Quote :

" do you honestly think the military's goal is to murder civilians? do you actually believe that? or do you think its more along the lines of, destroy military targets, try and secure control of the country, and some innocents will inevitably die along the way"

Okay, where do you draw the line between inevitable collateral damage, and criminal negligence? In real and practical terms, please.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:49 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:48:50 PM

Quote :

"do you honestly think the military's goal is to murder civilians? do you actually believe that? or do you think its more along the lines of, destroy military targets, try and secure control of the country, and some innocents will inevitably die along the way"

Okay here's where you stop what you're doing and study the war logs. Stop being so fucking ignorant.

Of course the military's stated goal is not to kill civilians. However, various officers on the ground have ordered "circle sweeps" and there have been documented revenge-killings of civilians. Furthermore, if tens of thousands of civilians are going to "inevitably die", then it would seem imperative to only go to war for legitimate reasons, right?

This country is way worse off than I imagined. Even once the truth has been exposed to you, you continue to bury your head in the sand and desperately protect the oligarchy. It's beyond ridiculous. I can't even imagine your incentive to do this... maybe you imagine if you don't, then your daddy-earned riches will disappear?

12/3/2010 4:50:33 PM

I don't know of a concrete line, I'm simply wondering how McDanger views the military's ultimate goals in this

if they're out to murder civilians, and are willfully giving orders to make this happen

or if its a byproduct of any war, and the US is actually trying their best to minimize civilian casualties

Quote :

"study the war logs"

have you read them all? or did you get through 5,000 or 10,000 of them and figure you've learned enough?

Quote :

"However, various officers on the ground have ordered "circle sweeps" and there have been documented revenge-killings of civilians."

how many of each have been documented...how many circle sweeps and how many revenge killings...give me some numbers...i wnat to know how often this happens...how many is 'various'

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:53 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:50:50 PM

Quote :

"I don't know of a concrete line, I'm simply wondering how McDanger views the military's ultimate goals in this if they're out to murder civilians, and are willfully giving orders to make this happen or if its a byproduct of any war, and the US is actually trying their best to minimize civilian casualties"

It's hilarious how unable you are to track what's being discussed. Do you really think I believe the military's secret agenda/goal is to slaughter civilians?

It's that the death of civilians is considered "inevitable", as you put it, ON THE ROAD TO SECURING RICHES FOR THE RICHEST IN THIS COUNTRY. On the back of YOU AND ME (standard taxpayers). We're getting robbed, their getting killed. And you, the scared little bitch pissing himself, has Stockholm syndrome apparently.

It's funny how you fuckers get it so twisted and imagine yourselves as patriots. Not only are you too cowardly, you would have been a loyalist.

Quote :

"have you read them all? or did you get through 5,000 or 10,000 of them and figure you've learned enough?"

This question is posed in a way that makes it clear you don't even understand what's going on. If you go to the war logs page you can search through them yourself. You can even flag your findings as "interesting". I'm not going to do your homework for you, the information is right fucking there and I simply refuse to republish it here for your benefit. This time, you're going to have to get off of your ass and learn something on your own.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:56 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:54:42 PM

Quote :

"Do you really think I believe the military's secret agenda/goal is to slaughter civilians? "

go back and read your own posts

you gonna wear your che guevera shirt out to the bars tonight? god damn you're a fucking rebel

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 4:56 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 4:55:16 PM

Quote :

" Not that I'm a supporter of this war but a likely response to that would be "How many 9/11's did Saddam Hussein inflict upon his people?""

There are two possible responses to that:

1) The whole rationalization that we fought the way to save the Iraqi people was a post-hoc rationalization. Remember the tales of WMD's? Preemptive strikes? The Bush Doctrine? "Saddam was a bad guy we did the right thing" is a red herring in that sense.

2) It's a complicated comparison to make. Do you include soldier deaths in the Iraq/Iran war? Do deaths due to trade sanctions fall on Saddam or the International community that imposed them? Whose estimates do you use, both for Saddam and the US.

Bottom line is that, in either event, it's another "It's okay we did a bad thing because the guy we're fighting also did a bad thing" red herring to avoid critically examining our own policy and ways of conducting war.

12/3/2010 4:55:55 PM

Quote :

"go back and read your own posts"

No need, I don't shift my position constantly based on the argument I'm in. That's what you do.

Quote :

"you gonna wear your che guevera shirt out to the bars tonight? god damn you're a fucking rebel"

No I'm not. I'm a concerned American with a shred of common sense, who knows what values this country was supposed to be founded upon. To think myself a rebel would be ridiculous. Nothing I've said approaches rebellion at all; all of it is what a concerned patriot would say if he could honestly evaluate his country.

12/3/2010 4:58:22 PM

Quote :

" have you read them all? or did you get through 5,000 or 10,000 of them and figure you've learned enough?"

What are you saying here? That if you can't read them all you shouldn't bother reading any of them? You're obviously sidetracking again but this time it doesn't even make sense what you're trying to say.

Do you think that on page 10,001 there begins the list of good things the troops did, and that somehow makes the aforementioned atrocities okay?

Seriously, what rhetorical direction is this remark intended to swing things to?

12/3/2010 4:59:25 PM

Quote :

"No need, I don't shift my position constantly based on the argument I'm in."

of course not

thats why you preach tolerance for homosexuals and muslims

and cast negative stereotypes with no shred of tolerance at southerners and christians

but i forgot, you're pretty much the most intelligent guy on this site, so anyone who even attempts to argue with you is setting themselves up for failure...and even a smart guy...not some dumb redneck you've never met who works for daddy and pisses his pants like me

12/3/2010 5:00:17 PM

Quote :

"thats why you preach tolerance for homosexuals and muslims and cast negative stereotypes with no shred of tolerance at southerners and christians"

Try and stay on topic. In fact I was defending religion in the soap box just the other day. Any other factually incorrect bullshit you want to drop in this thread? Can't you stay on topic when saying things that are factually incorrect? If you're going to make it up, can't you just constraint the pathological lying to one thing at a time?

Quote :

"but i forgot, you're pretty much the most intelligent guy on this site, so anyone who even attempts to argue with you is setting themselves up for failure...and even a smart guy...not some dumb redneck you've never met who works for daddy and pisses his pants like me"

I never claimed to be the smartest guy on this site. Again, more lame attempts at redirection from TT, our new #1 fascist cocksucker.

12/3/2010 5:03:48 PM

Quote :

"our new #1 fascist cocksucker"

fuckin homophobe

well anyway, its been fun...not really but oh well...have fun tossing and turning in your bed tonight not being able to sleep because you care so much about the state of the world, then staying up even later tormenting yourself as to why there are apathetic people like me

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:05 PM. Reason : toodles]

12/3/2010 5:04:27 PM

Oh there's nothing gay about the way you lick their dicks ... you do it for THEIR enjoyment, not your own.

That's really the sad part.

12/3/2010 5:05:21 PM

Quote :

" thats why you preach tolerance for homosexuals and muslims and cast negative stereotypes with no shred of tolerance at southerners and christians"

Ah, here comes the old "you claim to be tolerant, yet you are intolerant of intolerance" maneuver, breaking out the secret playbook..


[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:06 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 5:05:38 PM

Any more lame rhetoric you'd like to use to try and distract this thread, TT? Or have you finally realized that only you are dumb enough to be tricked by you?

12/3/2010 5:06:09 PM

you guys are great at finishing each others sentences, its cute

let me guess, Str8foolish is gonna wear his Free Mumia shirt to the bar tonight

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:07 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 5:06:14 PM

you're completely abandoning your positions and falling back on ad hominem deflections, surprise

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:07 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 5:07:36 PM

And TT degenerates at last into the weakest trolling imaginable. I'm done here. I've already beaten you to a fucking smear, there's nothing left to thump on.

12/3/2010 5:08:07 PM

i liked arguing with Str8Foolish better when it was just McDanger using that account

now its like i'm arguing with 2 identical people, and i feel no need to type everything twice

12/3/2010 5:08:23 PM

Quote :

"Do you remember 9/11? It didn't happen out of nowhere. Just because you lack the context to understand how and why it happened doesn't mean it didn't happen as a causal consequence of our foreign entanglements."

9/11 happened because an Islamist terrorist group made up largely of Arab ex-Mujahedin led by Osama bin Laden, who was pissed off at the United States for a whole slew of reasons no rational (not to mention liberal-minded) person could see as legitimate, including our liberation of Muslims in Kuwait, decided that the best way to bring on the restoration of the Caliphate would be to hurl planeloads of innocent people into skyscrapers and government offices.

I know exactly why, and how, 9/11 happened. Incidentally, I get paid to know about these things. Care to give me your take?

Clearly, we had to put an end to that sort of thing. I think anyone who knew a damn thing about Islamist terrorism knew that special forces and law enforcement tactics were not going to be enough to stop an ideological movement that was as well supported and well financed - not to mention well propagandized - as al Qaeda and its associates were, and to some extent still are. The militaries of the free world were going to have to be involved if this stain on humanity was going to be removed - and the threat of major terrorist operations like 9/11 were going to be reduced significantly. I'm glad the decision was made to make this so.

And yeah, our engagement with them probably did help with their recruitment. This tends to happen. And so we kill the recruits, too.

Quote :

"They're busting peoples' asses worldwide in what's basically an above-the-table siphoning of money from the public sphere into the private pockets of arms dealers, military contractors, etc."

There are definitely problems with defense appropriations and the use of private contractors. To say this makes the military "illegitimate" is ridiculous. Newsflash: Large institutions have, and always will have, problems.

Quote :

"Not to mention they're bankrupting the living fuck out of us. We have the most extravagant military in the history of the planet, but we have collapsing bridges, levees, and a whole slew of domestic problems."

That's a non sequitur and pretty much irrelevant to the question of the military's legitimacy. You're talking about politics now.

12/3/2010 5:11:15 PM

We disagree on a lot; the sorts of things reasonable people disagree about.

Just because all reasonable people look identical to a bumbling, unreasonable idiot doesn't mean that all reasonable people are the same. We are arguing about an issue that seriously admits of no argument. Either you're a borderline fascist American exceptionalist and an elitist (one who supports exceptions for the elite and actively supports funneling them illegitimate wealth), or you're not. ^^

^ Your post is so full of hokey bullshit that I am tempted to make myself late to an engagement to address it. Assuming nobody else does, I'll try and scrape enough patience together for yet another fascist. It's going to take a lot of patience to compile for you a 50 year history lesson, though.

It's scary you're "paid to know about this". By who? People who want to draw conclusions that don't hamper American exceptionalism and imperialism as moral?

Quote :

"Newsflash: Large institutions have, and always will have, problems."

I do want to point out one thing, though. You're right. They always have had problems and always will have problems. Rational people want to fix those problems, though. People like you want to cover them up, because you think (erroneously) that the problems (no matter how large) work in your favor.

I'd call you evil but you're literally too dumb to qualify.

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/3/2010 5:11:27 PM

Quote :

"Either you're a borderline fascist American exceptionalist and an elitist (one who supports exceptions for the elite and actively supports funneling them illegitimate wealth), or you're not. ^^"

i'm not...but don't let me telling you that i'm not change your mind, why would it

12/3/2010 5:16:14 PM

Quote :

"McDanger is pwning the fuck out of you losers."

12/3/2010 5:16:35 PM

Quote :

" 9/11 happened because an Islamist terrorist group made up largely of Arab ex-Mujahedin led by Osama bin Laden, who was pissed off at the United States for a whole slew of reasons no rational (not to mention liberal-minded) person could see as legitimate, including our liberation of Muslims in Kuwait, decided that the best way to bring on the restoration of the Caliphate would be to hurl planeloads of innocent people into skyscrapers and government offices. "

You're going to have to list a few more of these illegitimate reasons M.E. Muslims would be bitter towards the US. Somehow I think "liberation of Muslims in Kuwait" isn't the most compelling one and you possibly chose that incident and that wording for rhetorical purposes. Not saying you did, it was just a surprisingly brief dismissal ..

12/3/2010 5:22:06 PM

McStranger:

I did ask for your take on 9/11, and I'll take whatever wisdom you can impart on associated topics as well. So I'll be waiting for that.

Quote :

"I do want to point out one thing, though. You're right. They always have had problems and always will have problems. Rational people want to fix those problems, though. People like you want to cover them up, because you think (erroneously) that the problems (no matter how large) work in your favor."

I don't think anything should be covered up. If there is wrong doing, it should be exposed. Rational people say things like that. Fanatical people do things like call people fascists on the Internet all day.

Quote :

"Somehow I think "liberation of Muslims in Kuwait" isn't the most compelling one and you possibly chose that incident and that wording for rhetorical purposes. Not saying you did, it was just a surprisingly brief dismissal."

By all accounts, the SRF's decision to allow the US - and not bin Laden's rag tag group of former jihadis - liberate Kuwait was the prime reason for OBL's bitterness towards the United States. Other reasons include things like our support for Israel and our supporting East Timor's independence. But it was really the Kuwait thing that got to him personally. (Of course, these are just the things AQ and its associates list off when justifying attacks. Their real problem with the West is that it is seen as promoting an un-Islamic culture throughout the world, which makes us an enemy on a much more fundamental level.)

[Edited on December 3, 2010 at 5:38 PM. Reason : ]

12/3/2010 5:33:23 PM

Quote :

"our support for Israel"

Getting closer....


(BTW, our support for Israel is 100% bullshit. Fuck Israel. Fuck Israel.)



(Fuck Israel.)

12/3/2010 5:38:04 PM

^ Racist.

12/3/2010 5:40:46 PM

Quote :

"I don't think anything should be covered up. If there is wrong doing, it should be exposed. Rational people say things like that. Fanatical people do things like call people fascists on the Internet all day. "

What is happening right now is a cover up. Political figures are stating that the leak is a "threat to national security" and "lives will be lost". So far these are empty threats and what is being exposed is somewhat embarrassing. So I am supposed to trust these people? Their credibility has been ruined at this point.

12/3/2010 6:29:43 PM

A fairly interesting cable out of Tegucigalpa, dated July 24, 2009:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/28/world/20101128-cables-viewer.html?hp#report/cables-09TEGUCIGALPA645

Quote :

"14. (C) Regardless of the merits of Zelaya's alleged constitutional violations, it is clear from even a cursory reading that his removal by military means was illegal, and even the most zealous of coup defenders have been unable to make convincing arguments to bridge the intellectual gulf between 'Zelaya broke the law' to 'therefore, he was packed off to Costa Rica by the military without a trial.'"

Quote :

"19. (C) The analysis of the Constitution sheds some interesting light on the events of June 28. The Honduran establishment confronted a dilemma: near unanimity among the institutions of the state and the political class that Zelaya had abused his powers in violation of the Constitution, but with some ambiguity what to do about it. Faced with that lack of clarity, the military and/or whoever ordered the coup fell back on what they knew -- the way Honduran presidents were removed in the past: a bogus resignation letter and a one-way ticket to a neighboring country. No matter what the merits of the case against Zelaya, his forced removal by the military was clearly illegal, and Micheletti's ascendance as 'interim president' was totally illegitimate."

^^^^

Quote :

"Other reasons include things like our support for Israel and our supporting East Timor's independence."

Did you mean to say "East Timor's genocide"?

I wasn't even aware that Bin Laden had beef with our involvement in East Timor.

12/3/2010 7:54:36 PM

Quote :

"McDanger is pwning the fuck out of you losers"

he isnt "pwning" anyone. he is trolling with incoherent, nonsensical, illogical statements only intended
to anger the person he is "debating" with, vs. actually trying to present a point.

12/3/2010 9:55:02 PM

Come on, the new and improved McDoucher is a raging dickhead that more than a couple folks here would probably relish bitch slapping, but he isn't any of what you just posted.

12/3/2010 10:02:17 PM

well, maybe not.

12/3/2010 11:04:20 PM

Quote :

"I did ask for your take on 9/11, and I'll take whatever wisdom you can impart on associated topics as well. So I'll be waiting for that."

Do you seriously want me to give you a history of post WW2 American involvement in the middle east / Israel?

Quote :

"I don't think anything should be covered up. If there is wrong doing, it should be exposed"

It's funny how you argue that atrocities be covered up, and then when pressed, claim you want atrocities exposed. What's going through your head?

Quote :

"Rational people say things like that. Fanatical people do things like call people fascists on the Internet all day."

Hmm yes rationality is a matter of tone.

Quote :

"our supporting East Timor's independence"

roflmao I want to hear this one

12/4/2010 2:23:37 AM

Quote :

"Do you seriously want me to give you a history of post WW2 American involvement in the middle east / Israel?"

I'm interested in hearing your alternative version of the story, since you seem to think one exists.

Quote :

"It's funny how you argue that atrocities be covered up, and then when pressed, claim you want atrocities exposed. What's going through your head?"

I'd like to know exactly where I said atrocities should be covered up.

Quote :

"roflmao I want to hear this one"

So now it's you who needs the history lesson?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+did+Osama+bin+Laden+say+about+East+Timor%3F

12/4/2010 8:15:35 AM

Quote :

"From the small mountain of diplomatic cables that WikiLeaks is now slowly putting up at their website, one significant historical document has so far gotten only scant mention. It’s dated February 6, 2007 and directed to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. It reflects a meeting between John M. Koenig, the senior career diplomat at the U.S. Embassy in Berlin, and Rolf Nikel, the deputy national security advisor for Germany. The subject was the criminal investigation into the kidnapping and torture of Khaled El-Masri, a German greengrocer from the town of Neu-Ulm, seized in a case of mistaken identity. Koenig, aware that German prosecutors had issued arrest warrants against thirteen U.S. government agents who were involved in El-Masri’s abduction and torture, and that an effort would shortly be made to enforce them internationally, was pressing the German government to block this effort. It would have a “negative impact on our bilateral relationship,” he apparently told Nikel. While Koenig mouthed formulas about respect for the “independence” of the German criminal justice system, he noted that there was also a “political” element—unlike their colleagues in Italy and Spain, German prosecutors are subject to direction by the government on a political basis. Though this cable is framed in typically diplomatic politesse, the underlying message seems clear: it was a demand that Chancellor Merkel’s government intervene to block the criminal investigation, coupled with a threat of negative consequences if it failed to do so."

Quote :

"Over the Christmas-New Year’s holiday in 2003, Khaled El-Masri traveled by bus to Skopje, Macedonia. There he was apprehended by border guards who noted the similarity of his name to that of Khalid al-Masri, an Al Qaeda agent linked to the Hamburg cell where the 9/11 attacks were plotted. Despite El-Masri’s protests that he was not al-Masri, he was beaten, stripped naked, shot full of drugs, given an enema and a diaper, and flown first to Baghdad and then to the notorious “salt pit,” the CIA’s secret interrogation facility in Afghanistan. At the salt pit, he was repeatedly beaten, drugged, and subjected to a strange food regime that he supposed was part of an experiment that his captors were performing on him. Throughout this time, El-Masri insisted that he had been falsely imprisoned, and the CIA slowly established that he was who he claimed to be. Over many further weeks of bickering over what to do, a number of CIA figures apparently argued that, though innocent, the best course was to continue to hold him incommunicado because he “knew too much."

http://harpers.org/archive/2010/11/hbc-90007831

The cables didn't reveal any wrongdoing. Just business as usual! lol sorry we tortured your grocer don't tell anybody pls

12/4/2010 12:19:13 PM

^CAREFUL THAT IS A DIRECT THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY!!!!!!!!!!! I guess we will have to appeal to baby infant jesus to save us from the terrorists.

12/4/2010 12:23:16 PM

12/4/2010 5:08:05 PM

Quote :

"However, various officers on the ground have ordered "circle sweeps" and there have been documented revenge-killings of civilians."

and yet these are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Thus, suggesting that this is evidence of "corruption" is absurd.

Quote :

"Do you really think I believe the military's secret agenda/goal is to slaughter civilians? "

Well, troll, that is what you said they were doing... why bring it up?

12/4/2010 5:11:53 PM

^
They are doing it--it doesn't mean it's their goal, just shows what they're willing to do to reach their goal.

12/4/2010 7:25:07 PM

^^ So where exactly are these "threats to national security" that will "get americans killed"

12/4/2010 8:43:35 PM

Pakistan is a more open and free country than America.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Lahore/04-Dec-2010/Plea-to-ban-WikiLeaks-in-Pakistan-dismissed

12/5/2010 11:21:08 AM

You know they banned Facebook a couple months ago because people were posting drawings of Muhammad, right?

12/5/2010 12:04:06 PM

Quote :

"You know they banned Facebook a couple months ago because people were posting drawings of Muhammad, right?"

Yeah and it was ridiculous and wrong. Next.

12/5/2010 12:11:37 PM

^^
this is smc you're talking to. he is a crazy person.

12/5/2010 12:13:10 PM

Slurp

12/5/2010 12:18:47 PM

I am very thankful wikileaks is there since journalism in the US has long since died.

12/5/2010 12:37:10 PM

william randolph hearst's model continues to thrive

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 1:08 PM. Reason : +]

12/5/2010 12:41:07 PM

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 1:15 PM. Reason : The GIMP threshold function sucks. Slurp.]

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 1:20 PM. Reason : slurp slurp]

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 1:20 PM. Reason : slurp]

12/5/2010 1:15:22 PM