Quote :

"I feel that Mary was phased out of the Gospel to keep women from being powerful in the church at the time and if it all happened in a world of equality like today then women would be a large part of the church but thats just me."

But isn't Mary the queen of Heaven in Catholicism? A coredeemer with Jesus? How is that phasing women out. And Paul said that it is not fit for women to speak during the assembly, does that mean Paul was a liar?

Quote :

"964 Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";502 it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion: Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."503 965 After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."504 In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."505 . . . also in her Assumption 966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:"

Apparently she wouldn't have gone to purgatory when she was a baby.

Quote :

"970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.""

It's nice to see that they at least attempt to disguise the fact that what they are saying blasphemes the name and power of God.

Quote :

"971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515"

Just because you worship an idol differently than you worship got does not mean it isn't idolatry. Do you think the Hebrews (not all of them ofc) worshiped Baal with the same ritual they worshiped Jehovah?

7/26/2011 11:42:28 AM

First of all, I meant the other Mary as an originial apostle.

Second of all, Mary is the Mother of Christ. Of course she should be praised by Christians. I could see why non-christians would view it as blasphemy but not Christians. Jesus came out of her for heavens sake.

7/26/2011 11:48:50 AM

Ok so Jesus was born of Mary, does this mean that she was infallible? Does this mean that she shares in his crucifixion and sacrifice? Does this mean that she shares in his redemption. I don't venerate men or women I venerate the living God. I'll tell you exactly why it is blaspheme. You are taking Mary's rightful place amongst the saints and exalting her to a level that makes her an abomination. The Catholic church worships her like she is a pagan God, saying that she shares in redemptive power with Christ, and has her own abilities and works her own miracles. How is this not obvious to you as idol worship? What part of "you shall have no other God before me" don't you understand? Just because you aren't calling her a God does not mean you aren't defining her along the EXACT lines of how pagans used to define their Gods, i.e as ones who the power to work some miracle.

7/26/2011 11:58:07 AM

So after Indy discovered it they just hid it in some warehouse? I think it deserves more security than that.

Anyways, next question:

How can there exist an alternate faith which grants enough power to its followers to allow them to rip still-beating hearts from innocents?

7/26/2011 12:43:30 PM

Quote :

"Secondly, the canon indicates that when the Pope speaks about doctrinal matters, he does not speak infallibly when he does not intend to."

Besides the fact that the Canon referenced and the items from Vatican I are very ambiguous and not clear cut as the priest suggests. Example:

Quote :

"Therefore, by our Apostolic authority, we reprobate, proscribe, and condemn all the singular and evil opinions and doctrines severally mentioned in this letter, and will and command that they be thoroughly held by all children of the Catholic Church as reprobated, proscribed and condemned. "

-Pius IX Quanta Cura

That sounds like an Ex Cathedra on faith and morals.

Let's look at some of the things condemned in Quanta Cura.

Quote :

"Which false and perverse opinions are on that ground the more to be detested, because they chiefly tend to this, that that salutary influence be impeded and (even) removed, which the Catholic Church, according to the institution and command of her Divine Author, should freely exercise even to the end of the world -- not only over private individuals, but over nations, peoples, and their sovereign princes; and (tend also) to take away that mutual fellowship and concord of counsels between Church and State which has ever proved itself propitious and salutary, both for religious and civil interests."

Quote :

"For you well know, venerable brethren, that at this time men are found not a few who, applying to civil society the impious and absurd principle of "naturalism," as they call it, dare to teach that "the best constitution of public society and (also) civil progress altogether require that human society be conducted and governed without regard being had to religion any more than if it did not exist; or, at least, without any distinction being made between the true religion and false ones." And, against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that "that is the best condition of civil society, in which no duty is recognized, as attached to the civil power, of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except so far as public peace may require.""

And if Pius IX doesn't have Papal Authority how can he offer these people a nice free slice of forgiveness from sins:

Quote :

"By these Letters, therefore, in virtue of our Apostolic authority, we concede to all and singular the faithful of the Catholic world, a Plenary Indulgence in the form of Jubilee, during the space of one month only for the whole coming year 1865, and not beyond;"

The E Man I absolutely love your reference.

Get ready for the real kicker:

First let's establish what the source said:


The claim:

Quote :

"Historically, we could come up with countless examples of doctrinal statements made by previous Popes on matters pertaining to faith and morals. But in centuries past, they were not worded with this sort of unambiguous precision, because that’s simply not the way that the Church used to think."

Quote :

"There are, however, two occasions in history when the Pope did in fact issue a doctrinal statement in exactly the manner described by the First Vatican Council."

The wording:

Quote :

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."

The lie:

Quote :

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. "

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

-Pope Boniface VIII UNAM SANCTAM

That sounds like it applies to faith, is worded the same as the other and is Ex Cathedra. How long will you allow the Catholic church to lie to your face before you actually see the truth. Why don't you read some actual Papal Bulls so you can see your Church for what it really is.

7/26/2011 1:23:33 PM

Purgatory does not exist.

7/26/2011 1:57:15 PM

Signed,

Martin Luther

7/26/2011 1:58:47 PM

40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Luke 23

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 2:07 PM. Reason : ;]

7/26/2011 2:06:48 PM

Quote :

"Just because you aren't calling her a God does not mean you aren't defining her along the EXACT lines of how pagans used to define their Gods, i.e as ones who the power to work some miracle."

Moses worked miracles. Is he God or is it now blasphemy to read Exodus?

7/26/2011 2:17:05 PM

Quote :

"Moses worked miracles. Is he God or is it now blasphemy to read Exodus?"

The Hebrews did not worship Moses.

Example:

Quote :

"8And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: 9The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, 10Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. 11And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. 12And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. 14Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, 15And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: 16Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."

Acts 14


Christianity is not about glory to God, and some glory to the saints, it is about all glory to God, it has always been about that, from the time of Israel to the present. God will glorify the saints in his kingdom, there is no place of glory for them on Earth. That is idolatry because it exalts something (even if it is something with God) other than God. Meaning saint worship, veneration w/e smooth talking name you want to give it is different but equal on the level to worshiping idols. And seeing as most of Catholics venerate statues, icons, symbols of the saints, I fail to see how this is not obvious idol worship.

7/26/2011 4:24:24 PM

Quote :

"The Hebrews did not worship Moses."

Catholics don't admit to worshiping Mary: "Veneration of the saints, including Mary, is not worship. Catholics worship God alone."
http://www.americancatholic.org/features/customs/rosary/mary_worship.asp

You said Catholics worshipped Mary because they claimed she could perform miracles. By that logic, claiming that Moses could perform miracles is idolatry.

Quote :

"That is idolatry because it exalts something (even if it is something with God) other than God."

Something with god that is not god. What?

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 4:58 PM. Reason : asdfads]

7/26/2011 4:47:29 PM

Quote :

"You said catholics worshipped Mary because they claimed she could perform miracles."

My point is that worshiping anything other than God is against scripture, I was saying that they defined Mary according to the fact that she could perform miracles. I assume you didn't read my excerpt from Acts. The idea is that even if you work miracles you should not receive worship. Thus leading to all glory to God. I don't know why they worship Mary I was just positing that their definition of Mary as "herself" being able to protect and create miracles for them is against scripture. They may be claiming that Mary is working miracles through God, but even if that is the claim, which you can never tell do to ambiguity in Catholic doctrine, then it is still against scripture(and the Ten Commandments) to worship Mary. I don't care about your logical point. Maybe I was wrong about why the Catholics worship, that's a moot point however, considering the practice itself is idolatry.

Quote :

"That is idolatry because it exalts something (even if it is something with God) other than God."

This means that if even someone does a miracle they do not receive the "thanks" and whatnot for doing so.

Quote :

"Catholics don't admit to worshiping Mary: "Veneration of the saints, including Mary, is not worship. Catholics worship God alone.""

Classic Catholicism, call it a different name and it most be something different. Do you say: "Hail Mary full of Grace." Not to mention from your own Cacheism, states that Mary somehow took place in the sufferings of Christ, and somehow was preserved free from all sin, which is also against scripture.

Quote :

"514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary."

Marian prayer, Marain feasts, these are examples of idolatry, you are feasting and celebrating the perceived power of someone other than God. I mean come just because they guise it under a different word doesn't make it scriptural. Let's say I go to a feast of Moloch, but hey I don't view Moloch as divine so it's not worship right?

Quote :

"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols"

Acts 15:29

Worship isn't some cut and dry definition, just like their a multitude of manners to shown veneration and worship to God, there are a multitude of ways to show worship and veneration to man made things.

From your source:

Quote :

"Mary is the first saint, and holds high honor today, as she did in the early Church. Over the course of history, devotion to Mary has taken many forms, and even has been confused with worship. Church teaching has consistently placed Mary in the company of the saints, however."

According to Catholic doctrine wouldn't Peter be the first saint since he is the "Rock" which the church is built on? Are is there some more confounding of scripture to explain that?

7/26/2011 5:05:02 PM

So I've only been following this thread with a passing interest.


But here's a question for LeonIsPro: Do you think The E Man or EuroTitToss are going to heaven? I ask because you seem to be taking little pot shots at Catholicism, other Christian sects and people you seem to view as "not real Christians." To me, you seem to be taking a "no true Scotsman" philosophy on this, and I have to wonder:

If your God is as much a stickler for salvation as you seem to think he is, then isn't he really just a dick? That is to say, isn't it dangerous to assume that your interpretation is correct? What if your interpretation on one thing is wrong (even if for completely innocent reasons you somehow misinterpreted the scripture) are you going to go to hell because of it? If life is a test, will only those who score a 100% get in to heaven? Is an A- not good enough?

Also, do you think your God might be getting pissed with your constant need to post Spider man pictures? To me, he seems like a false idol, to me.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 5:33 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2011 5:12:12 PM

Also,

how is it that a knight from the First Crusade would be deemed worthy enough to have his tomb engraved with such pertinent information on the Grail's location?

7/26/2011 5:19:00 PM

Quote :

"I don't care about your logical point."

No, obviously not.

All you can say is everyone else in the world is "against scripture" by which you mean against your interpretation of scripture.

7/26/2011 5:25:42 PM

Quote :

"But here's a question for LeonIsPro: Do you think The E Man or EuroTitToss are going to heaven? I ask because you seem to be taking little pot shots at Catholicism, other Christian sects and people you seem to view as "not real Christians." To me, you seem to be taking a "no true Scotsman" philosophy on this, and I have to wonder:"

When did I ever say this? I'm talking about deep resounding issues within the base of Catholicism I'm not taking pot shots as you call it. According to the Catholic church I am not a true Christian, I am a heretic and luckily I'm not living 500 years ago or they probably would try and hunt me down and kill me for my beliefs.

Quote :

"All you can say is everyone else in the world is "against scripture" by which you mean against your interpretation of scripture."

I never claimed that everyone else was against scripture, and it's not my interpretation, it's the Ten Commandments, I mean look at the secular history of the Catholic church if you must, tell me then if it's something that you want to be a part of.

Quote :

"If your God is as much a stickler for salvation as you seem to think he is, then isn't he really just a dick?"

I am not making any claim that the God of Abraham is a stickler for salvation, he offers salvation freely to anyone who believes, it is the Catholic church which seems to make everyone want to fall inline and blindly obey their doctrine which is confounding salvation.

Quote :

"by which you mean against your interpretation of scripture."

I wish just once someone would actually make a debate about scripture points instead of just saying my "interpretation" which is accepted by many biblical scholars, a variety of saints, Martin Luther...

I'm not just sitting here saying that my word is law, I'm saying that God's word is, if you want to know the truth than read it yourself and tell me what you think. That's what Martin Luther did and look at all he accomplished.



Listen guys, I'm not here to blast anyone's religion or tell them they're going to Hell, but when people defend the Catholic church, while it sits there and lies directly to their face, it troubles me. I don't care about destroying the Catholic church, I just don't want people to be confounded and deceived by false doctrines.

Let me put this into perspective, I spoke with a couple of Mormon evangelicals (I guess that's what they're called) and we talked about scripture and scripture relating to the Mormon Church. And both I and them brought up some great points about scripture, I went home and read some verses to see if they had basis for their arguments and it seemed to be lacking. But nevertheless I spoke at length with them about salvation, works, Christ's sacrifice, and the whole time I thought to myself, these are my fellow saints in Christ.

Before condemning me if you had read my posts you would realize that I believe the saints will come from a variety of different sects, and church denominations including the Catholic church. The problem is that there is such a huge web of lies and intrigue with the Catholic church, that sometimes people lose true faith, and I don't want this to happen.

But needless to say I have yet to see anyone debate with me according to scripture, and until I see this, I see no reason to not state scripture and offer my interpretation of the Word of God, to my best ability, because in the end that's all we can do. But when we stray far from the truth and justify it based on the fact that "Well there can't be just one interpretation" we make God a liar, because we have created falsehood in place of truth, justifying it not according to passages in scripture but how we feel the world should be.


I just wish to exhort others in what I feel is an obvious danger in the blind allegiance to a church.

Let me follow that up with saying, blind allegiance to anything is against scripture, if you blindly followed me and did not test my words, than that would be against scripture. Now let us take this discussion a step higher. If you want to prove the basis for your faith in the Catholic church, then let us find scripture to support it/ condemn it and discuss the ramifications.


I can't determine who is a saint, but when people give me a small testimony, which does not even contain anything about the Lord Jesus, I doubt their sincerity. I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but I wish to expose the lies of the Catholic church, so that people will at least open their minds enough to question their superiors. It's not like I'm making up Bible passages after all.

7/26/2011 6:03:37 PM

Quote :

"What if your interpretation on one thing is wrong (even if for completely innocent reasons you somehow misinterpreted the scripture) are you going to go to hell because of it?"

Sorry, didn't notice this before, you can refer to some of my above writing, but their is a very good passage which describes exactly this. And I have been very wrong about interpretations before. But my claim against the Catholic church still stands as it goes against tenets of Christianity and salvation, and if I was wrong about those, then everyone would be condemned.

Let's refer to 1 Corinthians 3

"11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. "

According to Gill and others this passage is an example of those who have the faith of Christ but through ignorance or mistake build upon it false doctrine against scripture or even a wrong interpretation as you said. They are all saved, but will suffer less of a reward in Heaven then they perceived due to their mistake. Salvation once granted through true faith is not something which departs from the person (I share this belief with others, though some hold it in debate), there is much scripture backing this and to say this (that salvation can be taken away) takes away from the power of Christ.

Here is a nice passage I ran across on the importance of individual interpretation and discussion of scripture:

"15And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished to all good works."

2 Timothy 3

7/26/2011 6:14:49 PM

Yeah, so the Grail was the carpenter's cup. Makes sense.

But where did all those OTHER cups come from?? Surely they have some historical significance as well.

7/26/2011 6:16:06 PM

Quote :

"What part of "you shall have no other God before me" don't you understand? "

Mary doesn't come before god.

Quote :

"and has her own abilities and works her own miracles."

everyone in heaven has the ability to work their own miracles.

Quote :

"Just because you aren't calling her a God does not mean you aren't defining her along the EXACT lines of how pagans used to define their Gods, i.e as ones who the power to work some miracle."

This is the mother of Jesus and you act like its some separate God. Then you quote old testament scripture to say why its wrong. Jesus CHANGED EVERYTHING. The old testament is not obsolete but its all but obsolete since the arrival of Jesus...for Christians. A lot of things are done differently and many condemned Jesus himself for breaking commandments. The game has obviously changed unless you are a jew.

Quote :

"Purgatory does not exist."

Do you really think an all loving God would send most people to hell and send people to eternity in hell over small sins?

Do you think God lets unpure souls into heaven?

Do you really believe if someone dies before getting the chance to repent, they are going to hell?

Purgatory makes logical sense. Its like going to junior college.

Quote :

"And seeing as most of Catholics venerate statues, icons, symbols of the saints, I fail to see how this is not obvious idol worship. "

This is essentially worshiping "Gods posse" of people that are sitting along his side. The statues and symbols just give us something to picture and focus on while we pray.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:11 PM. Reason : k]

Quote :

"If your God is as much a stickler for salvation as you seem to think he is, then isn't he really just a dick?"

Evangelicals love to portray God as a very strict stickler that doesn't want anybody to have fun.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:13 PM. Reason : k]

Quote :

"I never claimed that everyone else was against scripture, and it's not my interpretation, it's the Ten Commandments,"

jesus trumps the ten commandments. He showed us how to live and allegedly walked all over commandments

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:15 PM. Reason : he was punished to death based on the interpretation of thecommandments]

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:16 PM. Reason : k]

7/26/2011 7:09:48 PM

Quote :

"A lot of things are done differently and many condemned Jesus himself for breaking commandments."

Are you saying that Jesus sinned? Because that's what it sounds like.

Quote :

"jesus trumps the ten commandments."

Jesus allowed us to live by rule of Grace instead of under the law, so I guess in a manner of speaking he "trumps" the Ten Commandments, but that does not mean that the law is void, through the law we are still aware of sin, it is just that the structure of the law and manner of the law has no place in the rule of Grace.

I'll go ahead and disregard the Mary argument as you are unwilling to address the issue inline with scripture. I offered up many NT examples and OT examples of where the "God posse" openly rejected veneration of their persons and spoke against feasts and celebrations not given to God, but to an idol.

I'm sorry to say that I can't put much stock in your answers because they are merely a summation of your worldview and not based in scripture. If you wish to find scripture to base them, I'd be happy to discuss it.

7/26/2011 7:23:55 PM

Quote :

"Do you really think an all loving God would send most people to hell and send people to eternity in hell over small sins? Do you think God lets unpure souls into heaven? Do you really believe if someone dies before getting the chance to repent, they are going to hell?"

Yes to 1

No to 2

Yes to 3

I'm interested to here your definition of purity. I'm confused by the fact that though you say the law is irrelevant you appear to be preaching salvation based on works.


Also what does this mean:

Quote :

"The game has obviously changed unless you are a jew. "

Christ was a jew, Peter was a jew.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:29 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2011 7:28:36 PM

Common sense interpretations > word for word scripture

Evangelicals get so caught up in scripture that they forget about the entire point or christianity and they even lose common sense.

Quote :

"Are you saying that Jesus sinned? Because that's what it sounds like."

Thats what you are saying because you said hailing mary is sin because its against the commandment (even though its CLEARLY not)

Quote :

"openly rejected veneration of their persons and spoke against feasts and celebrations not given to God, but to an idol."

look up what an idol is. An idol is a false god. Idolatry involves putting a god before God. We are praising Mary for being with God and allowing him to incarnate and send us Christ. We are not praising her over God or aside from God.

Quote :

"Christ was a jew, Peter was a jew."

Only jews still follow scripture alone. Christians follow Christ

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 7:33 PM. Reason : k]

7/26/2011 7:31:37 PM

Quote :

"Yes to 1 No to 2 Yes to 3 I'm interested to here your definition of purity. I'm confused by the fact that though you say the law is irrelevant you appear to be preaching salvation based on works."

Why is God even in business if he is all loving and all powerful but makes all these people just to send almost all of them to hell? Seems kind of cruel. You believe God makes billions of people just to send them to hell for all of eternity.

Purity is having all of your sins forgiven. Everyone is given a chance to chose God or "not God". There are no unfortunate situations where someone with a good heart that would have sought out forgiveness isn't given a chance. Ignorance is excused as well. This is why most people go to purgatory and pay for their sins. Length of stay in purgatory varies widely. Some say you feel all the pain and suffering you caused.

7/26/2011 7:37:32 PM

Quote :

"Thats what you are saying because you said hailing mary is sin because its against the commandment (even though its CLEARLY not)"

No I never said Jesus was a sinner, I thought you were claiming that.

Quote :

"Only jews still follow scripture alone. Christians follow Christ"

This argument doesn't make sense, does that mean that Christ followed scripture but his followers did not? If that's the case why were they always quoting the OT prophets?

7/26/2011 7:39:25 PM

Quote :

"Why is God even in business if he is all loving and all powerful but makes all these people just to send almost all of them to hell? Seems kind of cruel. You believe God makes billions of people just to send them to hell for all of eternity. "

Our God is a just God, he gives us a choice, you can claim his work is cruel all you want, but who are you to judge God? And God does not make billions of people to send them to hell for eternity, it's like you said, it's a choice. As you said before the unpure cannot stand before God, but those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation to wash away their sins, will be pure, the others cannot have their sins forgiven and will be send to another place which is the absence of God, this absence of God, is hell, because whereas on Earth we have God to support us and keep us, God is not in hell, and thus suffering "wailing and gnashing of teeth."

If purgatory exists then what are the stipulations for it? What is the cut-off for going to purgatory or going to hell?

7/26/2011 7:44:03 PM

If you are truly sorry and seek fogiveness you can go to purgatory. Some obviously spend longer there than others and its not a desirable place. Some people still have the "fuck you" attitude after they die, those are the ones who go straight to hell.

Quote :

"This argument doesn't make sense, does that mean that Christ followed scripture but his followers did not? If that's the case why were they always quoting the OT prophets?"

Christ was crucified for going against scripture.

7/26/2011 7:48:30 PM

Quote :

"3“You shall have no other gods before me. 4“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments. "

So how is having an icon of Mary not against the Ten Commandments?

idol-Hebrew-pesel

"carved image (2), graven image (14), graven images (1), idol (10), idols (3), image (1)."

Apparently looking for the actual meaning of the Hebrew makes me devoid of common sense. As does reading the Bible myself. You'll forgive me if I don't think reading the Bible to determine something as important as eternal salvation, makes me devoid of common sense.

7/26/2011 7:50:15 PM

Quote :

"Christ was crucified for going against scripture."

And how is that? Please tell me how Christ sinned.

7/26/2011 7:51:08 PM

^^that version of the commandment is pretty damn crazy. I've never seen that before but its absurd that the 5th generation of a sinner would be punished. Thats not an all loving God.

Quote :

"And how is that? Please tell me how Christ sinned."

Christ didn't sin just like Catholics aren't sinning for hailing mary. Christ simply went against scripture and people who were hard line with the scripture weren't having it and thought jesus was a false prophet, blasphemer and broke the commandments.

7/26/2011 8:00:20 PM

Quote :

"Christ simply went against scripture and people who were hard line with the scripture weren't having it and thought jesus was a false prophet, blasphemer and broke the commandments."

You're making a gigantic claim, that Christ sinned, or that I'm somehow claiming that Christ sinned, now it is time for you to prove your claim, or retract it. Because I never once said Christ sinned, now you better show some evidence, or stop making claims which fundamentally destroy Christianity.

Quote :

"that version of the commandment is pretty damn crazy. I've never seen that before but its absurd that the 5th generation of a sinner would be punished. Thats not an all loving God."

Here's the King James in case anyone else thinks I'm quoting a bizarre translation:

Quote :

"4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. "

I'd imagine the reason you've never seen this before is because the Catholic church willfully leaves it out of the Ten Commandments and split's the last Commandment into 2.

From the Catcheism:

1.

Quote :

"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3 It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4"

2.

Quote :

"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.72 You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not swear falsely. . But I say to you, Do not swear at all.73"

3.

Quote :

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90 The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91"

4.

Quote :

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.4"

5.

Quote :

"You shall not kill.54"

The Bible: Exodus 20:

Quote :

"2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13Thou shalt not kill. "

Apparently they forgot one, well most of one.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 8:09 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2011 8:08:21 PM

You have implied that breaking a commandment (from your bible) is a sin and there is no gray area.

Quote :

"You're making a gigantic claim, that Christ sinned, or that I'm somehow claiming that Christ sinned, now it is time for you to prove your claim, or retract it. Because I never once said Christ sinned, now you better show some evidence, or stop making claims which fundamentally destroy Christianity."

Do I really need a source to show that Jesus was charged with blasphemy and patronized for "stealing" attention from tax collectors pharisees and sagisees(sp) as well as "working" on the sabbath?

Do I really need to show you that in scripture?

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 8:17 PM. Reason : the part where you say god will punish 5 generations is barbaric. ]

7/26/2011 8:16:21 PM

Quote :

"the part where you say god will punish 5 generations is barbaric. "

I don't say that God does, apparently you think God is barbaric, because even though we are in the time of the law of Grace, this law once held. So apparently at one time God was barbaric(your claim).

Quote :

"Do I really need a source to show that Jesus was charged with blasphemy and patronized for "stealing" attention from tax collectors pharisees and sadducees as well as "working" on the sabbath?"

No you don't, but what I'm saying is that he did not sin according to the law. If he did than how could he be a lamb without blemish.

Quote :

"14And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering? 16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him."

Luke 13

Healing on the sabbath. Christ's point was that healing and doing other helpful tasks or pertinent tasks on the sabbath do would not be considered sin or transgression of the law. His example, is to show that good works are inline with the will of God on any day. Just because the orthodox Jews had failed to fully understand this aspect of the law does not make Christ a transgressor of the Ten Commandments.

Quote :

"10And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

Matthew 12

Why would he care if it was lawful or not, if he could just do w/e he wanted and not just interpret the law as he pleased. No Jesus Christ was the son of God, sent to down to be free from sin, sin defined in the law, if Jesus had sinned then God would have been made a liar because then even he couldn't follow his own rules. But because the Father gave up his son, who had come down from his throne and taken on the flesh of man, we have salvation. The Son took on flesh so that he could bare are sins for us as a blameless sacrifice. To say that Christ sinned or did not follow the law does one of two things, it either makes God a sinner, or it makes God a liar. So my question to you once again, is "How did Christ sin?" or "Is God a sinner or a liar?"

7/26/2011 8:30:42 PM

Look, I didn't die for your sins so that you guys could get on the internet and quibble over minor details like a bunch of faggots.

7/26/2011 8:31:51 PM

Quote :

"I don't say that God does, apparently you think God is barbaric, because even though we are in the time of the law of Grace, this law once held. So apparently at one time God was barbaric(your claim)."

my god is not barbaric but the god portrayed in your quote would be barbaric

Quote :

"If he did than how could he be a lamb without blemish."

because laws always have moral gray area and when Jesus did good things that were literally against the law, that proved that the law was to be used with common sense.

Quote :

" Just because the orthodox Jews had failed to fully understand this aspect of the law does not make Christ a transgressor of the Ten Commandments."

Evangelicals fail to fully understand the law when it applies to hailing Mary.

7/26/2011 8:40:19 PM

Quote :

"quibble over minor details"

Ignoring your mockery of the Christ, I'd like to point out that the fact that Christ died blameless on the cross is a tenet of salvation not a minor detail.

7/26/2011 8:41:20 PM

and I know you are not saying christ is a sinner. You've just been caught in a contradiction and will have to concede that hailing mary is not a sin.

7/26/2011 8:43:40 PM

Quote :

"because laws always have moral gray area and when Jesus did good things that were literally against the law, that proved that the law was to be used with common sense. "

What exactly was literally against the law of Moses. Please pull the scripture for me, as I am too inept to find it myself. Then please explain to me how it against the law of Moses.

Quote :

"Evangelicals fail to fully understand the law when it applies to hailing Mary."

Ok, then explain to me how hailing Mary brings glory to God.

7/26/2011 8:44:25 PM

Quote :

"and I know you are not saying christ is a sinner. You've just been caught in a contradiction and will have to concede that hailing mary is not a sin."

Where is my contradiction?

7/26/2011 8:44:49 PM

You said that catholics sin by worshipping mary since the law says do not worship someone other than God but Jesus doesn't sin for working on the sabbath since he is doing good work. Neither are a sin because they are both done in order to serve the lord. You can't have it both ways though.

7/26/2011 8:48:29 PM

Quote :

"Neither are a sin because they are both done in order to serve the lord."

First, off, the law is clear, that NO IMAGE, whether for the worship of God, or for the glory of God is to be made, this is why often times in the OT, it states that "the high places" were destroyed. They were used to worship God, but were an abomination before him because they transgressed the law. God did not wish to be worshiped in the manner of the other "gods," with statues, elevated temples etc.

This is like saying, well man should be the judge of the Ten Commandments and thus he should do whatever he sees fit for the glory of God. What if I killed a huge number of Jews and Muslims, but did so because I said it was for the glory of God? What if I stole money from the coffers of the Catholic church, but gave it to poor people starving in Africa to help them get food? If this is the case then apparently the law is nothing more than a game of moral relativism.

Baring this obvious disregard for scripture, meaning "good work" is not considered to be working on the Sabbath. The definition of work in the Hebrew is melakah- meaning work or occupation. This is obviously different than "good works or miracles" I don't think I need to use the concordance to show that.

But as I said baring that, show me how venerating Mary brings glory to God.

7/26/2011 8:58:49 PM

Without mary there was no Jesus

7/26/2011 9:04:24 PM

Quote :

"Without mary there was no Jesus"

Without King David there was no Jesus, with Saul's son there was no King David, without Abraham there was no Jesus, without Jesse there was no Jesus, without Adam there was no Jesus, without Isaac there was no Jesus, without Judah there was no Jesus.

You have a lot of statues to erect if that is your only response.

[Edited on July 26, 2011 at 9:10 PM. Reason : ]

7/26/2011 9:10:23 PM

How many people has God incarnated himself through?

7/26/2011 9:11:36 PM

Quote :

"How many people has God incarnated himself through?"

What do you mean incarnated? Do you mean Mary being pregnant without knowing a man?

7/26/2011 9:14:21 PM

There is no such thing as purgatory because of the scripture that I quoted earlier.

7/26/2011 9:15:58 PM

Quote :

"There is no such thing as purgatory because of the scripture that I quoted earlier."

He's just going to say that is your interpretation. Great passage to quote though, it shows the basis of salvation, belief in Christ. It also shows that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, but instead a baptism with the Holy Spirit. And yes, it is scriptural evidence against purgatory.

7/26/2011 9:18:03 PM

I mean Mary being immaculate and specifically chosen by God to conceive Jesus with the holy spirit, and carrying God in her womb for 9 months.

7/26/2011 9:18:31 PM

Thanks Leon. You have done a good job explaining Christianity

7/26/2011 9:22:24 PM

Quote :

"I mean Mary being immaculate and specifically chosen by God to conceive Jesus with the holy spirit, and carrying God in her womb for 9 months."

Are you claiming that Mary was without sin?

7/26/2011 9:25:17 PM

Explain how in Beowulf the speaker makes seemingly Christian asides. Why do these seem to be tacked on ex-post facto? And if Beowulf were indeed a Christian - considering the majority of converted Christians at the time - would he truly be worthy of the most promising afterlife?

If so, what does this say about the funeral pyre at his burial? Also, how does the custom of burying a king with all his possessions affect the ability for said king to maintain a Christian life?

7/26/2011 9:29:37 PM