Kobe was not washed up when he was 25 years old. I have no idea where you get this stuff.

5/7/2012 10:14:07 PM

27? 28? he's 34 right now (i think) and you've been saying on here for years that he's done

its ok though, he doesn't mind you doubting him, he just keeps winning titles

5/7/2012 10:19:19 PM

he's been overrated nearly his entire career but i wouldnt say he's been "washed up" until this year really.

At this point he's a marginal player and certainly not someone you can build a team around.

5/7/2012 10:23:28 PM

at 34, he's obviously not someone you build a team of the future around, the Lakers decided to build the team around him when they traded Divac to us for him 15 years ago, and they won 1/3 of the NBA titles since then...should've been 6 but i guess Detroit's cumulative team WP48 was better than LA that series

saying Kobe has been overrated the majority of his career is pretty dumb though since he's pretty much been the best player in the league for the majority of his career

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 12:46 AM. Reason : marginal players lead the league in PPG most of the season]

5/8/2012 12:46:16 AM

That simply isn't true. Kobe has been overrated for most of his career, and to my knowledge has never been the best player in the NBA at any given time.


You've heard of Shaq right? He had a thing or two to do with a few of those titles. And yes, you are correct that the Pistons were superior to the Lakers that year, although I'm guessing you were being sarcastic.

Quote :

" The real oddity in all of this is the fact that people still think Kobe is relevent. He’s still on several MVP rankings. The impact of his clutchness is still being discussed. Lost in all of this is that Kobe is playing terribly this season and that’s even using Kobe’s own stats as a barometer. We can use the NBA Geek comparison engine to quickly explain why Kobe is bad: His shooting is average and his turnovers are really high. Let’s look at Kobe’s numbers in relation to his career to help complete the story: * Kobe is shooting a 52.6% true shooting percentage. This is the worst of his career behind 2001-2002 (54.3%) * Kobe is taking 25.1 true shots per 36 minutes. This is the 2nd most in his career behind 2005-2006 (27.9) * Kobe is getting 3.6 turnovers per 36 minutes. This is the 2nd worst of his career behind 1996-1997 (3.7) * Kobe is getting 1.2 steals per 36 minutes. This is a career low for him tied with with 2004-2005. * Kobe’s 4.4 assists per 36 minutes are the lowest he’s had since 2005-2006. Kobe is shooting the worst he ever has but is still taking a lot of shots. It turns out Kobe also used to do more than score. However, we can see his steals, turnovers and assists have all been getting worse. This of course leads us to the final most important fact: * Kobe is getting 28.3 points per game. This is the fifth highest of his career. Kobe’s numbers and efficiency have dropped! By keeping his shots up he is keeping his points per game up. It seems this very simple trick has worked. It’s also important that Kobe is also on a winning team. As we’ve pointed out, players that score lots of points but don’t win can be discovered. As long as Bynum, Gasol, Barnes and Sessions keep playing well then Kobe can keep taking lots of shots. And by keeping his scoring totals high people will think he is still a good player, even though he has clearly lost a step. Of course, readers of this blog are different and we’ll simply laugh loudly at anyone that is insane enough to say they’d take Kobe over Dwyane Wade."

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 12:54 AM. Reason : a]

5/8/2012 12:50:21 AM

5/8/2012 1:01:39 AM

thats talking about this year, right? doesnt at all dispute that kobe has been the best in the game for over half his career...when is that from anyway? kobe isn't mvp material this year (he already got shafted out of one of nash's) but he's been playing great the last month (and most of his career)

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 1:03 AM. Reason : You've heard of Pippen right? You've heard of Cousy right?]

5/8/2012 1:02:05 AM

I'm not disputing that Kobe Bryant used to be a great player.

Based on longevity he's clearly the 2nd best SG of all-time behind Drexler.

5/8/2012 1:03:19 AM

no love for dr. j huh

how come you value wins produced so much more than championships produced?

so much of a gambler that you can't see the big picture?

5/8/2012 1:05:43 AM

Is Robert Horry a better forward than Karl Malone or Dominique Wilkins?


Has Kobe ever even been the best player on his own team when they won the title? Obviously not the first 3 when they had Shaq. Gasol was when they beat Orlando. For god's sake Kobe was 6/24 FG when they beat the Celtics.


Can we please remember for one second that during Kobe's PRIME the three seasons after Shaq left the Lakers were below .500 collectively.

Lebron can win 55 games with a bunch of scrubs, but Kobe could't go .500 with a decent team? Why are we conveniently ignoring that?

5/8/2012 1:12:22 AM

you know what, maybe Lebron can do more individually for a team than Kobe ever could during a regular season

his fingers are butt naked though, and he likes to get in the fetal position in 4th quarters when it actually matters

i just don't get how you put so much all of your stock in regular season wins produced and none into world championships

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 1:18 AM. Reason : Thomas Robinson is the next Mailman]

5/8/2012 1:18:31 AM

are you really going to say Lebron choked last year and just ignore the epic disgrace that Kobe was in the playoffs last year?

Lebron did choke in the last few games, no argument. But he also went absolutely nuts against Boston and Chicago.

Kobe was a total disaster against Dallas. His WP/48 was negative IIRC.

5/8/2012 1:21:08 AM

the only player whose chicken i'm choking last year is dirk, yours is chandler, i'm talking about kobe career wise, and by the way, they're still in position to make a deep run this year, though obviously bynum is a big part of that

the bottom line about last year is neither kobe nor lebron won a title, kidd and dirk and chandler and cuban and Jerry Jones and JR and George Bush and steers and queers won

5/8/2012 1:25:20 AM

Quote :

"Table 1: 2011 Los Angeles Lakers Round 2 vs. Dallas Mavericks Player Pos G MP MPG WP48 WP Andrew Bynum 5.0 4 134 33.5 0.072 0.2 Derek Fisher 1.0 4 123 30.8 0.078 0.2 Lamar Odom 3.8 4 117 29.3 0.082 0.2 Pau Gasol 4.4 4 142 35.5 0.068 0.2 Shannon Brown 2.5 4 68 17.0 0.071 0.1 Matt Barnes 3.1 4 49 12.3 0.000 0.0 Ron Artest 2.9 3 91 30.3 0.000 0.0 Joe Smith 4.0 2 8 4.0 -0.600 -0.1 Kobe Bryant 2.0 4 148 37.0 -0.032 -0.1 Luke Walton 4.0 1 4 4.0 -1.200 -0.1 Trey Johnson 1.0 1 5 5.0 -0.960 -0.1 Steve Blake 1.1 4 69 17.3 -0.139 -0.2 Grand Total 3 39 960 24.6 0.005 0.1 In four games, the Lakers barely managed to eke out 1/10 of a win and not a single player was able to get into the average range (WP48 of 0.100 or higher) The reigning Finals MVP (that would be Kobe) put up negative numbers, the offseason additions of Barnes and Blake fell flat, and the dominant front court of Odom, Gasol and Bynum fizzled"

5/8/2012 1:25:35 AM

cool, last years stats

5/8/2012 1:26:58 AM

Look, Harden is going to absolutely dominate Kobe in this next series.

You'll see the difference between an elite SG and a has been.

5/8/2012 1:29:26 AM

Harden isn't even the best player on his team!!1

btw face, who are your top 5 Spurs on this year's roster, i'll get you started:

1. Ginobli
2. Parker
3. Duncan
4.
5.

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 1:40 AM. Reason : why didnt CP3 just right jab conley in the satchel to get space for a shot?]

5/8/2012 1:32:14 AM

You got Ginobili correct.

Look Harden, Durant, and Ibaka are all about equal. And they are all far, far above Kobe "Washed Up" Bryant, period.


And Harden is inarguably the best SG in the league right now. You're being ridiculous. Alright, I'm out.

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 1:45 AM. Reason : a]

5/8/2012 1:45:07 AM

you're out with 2:26 left in the game? what are you, dweedle's coworker at the Nats game?

Harden is a really nice player and will get even better

but saying either him or Ibaka are as good as Durant is pretty silly

as for them all being "far, far" above Bryant, we'll see over the next 2 weeks

5/8/2012 1:49:27 AM

No, it's not silly. Durant is one of the best players in the league. As are Ibaka/Harden.

They are all pretty much interchangeable.

5/8/2012 1:50:21 AM

you'd think they'd all start then, but we're not the coach

5/8/2012 2:09:25 AM

Good games last night. The Jazz almost made an epic comeback. They are a good shooter/dynamic scoring guard away from being a contender in the West. Jefferson and Favors form a solid frontcourt and I've always liked Harris. They've got some good "pieces"...just need a better backcourt scoring option.

Griffin was aggressive last night as well and Paul took over in overtime. I would like to see them advance.

5/8/2012 7:44:30 AM

Stats are still mainly for people who don't know how to watch games. Kobe is on a post oriented team which means they shove him the ball with 3 on the shot clock all game. The fact that he shoots as well as he does is spectacular. Its also got something to do with the fact that they know he is Kobe. Kobe takes more difficult shots than anyone. That has to be factored in when evaluating his efficiency.

5/8/2012 7:57:47 AM

No other SG ever takes shots at the end of the shot clock.

Look, you picked a Memphis - Chicago final so you'd be well served to listen to anyone other than your own logic

5/8/2012 9:54:05 AM

Hard to get on him for picking the Bulls. Losing Rose and Noah (a bit) is impossible to predict. Memphis, in that conference, was a terrible pick.

Anyway, I'd love to see the Lakers beat OkC.

5/8/2012 11:03:59 AM

Memphis a terrible pick? They're the only team in the conference with a legit three man rotation in the paint, two excellent perimeter defenders, and three guys who can create their own shot at any time. The fact that they're losing to the Clippers doesn't preclude the fact that they match up well with any team in the league. Beyond the obvious top 3, they were probably one of the best bets to win the whole thing.

5/8/2012 11:08:10 AM

I think they're a terrible pick because they are not OKC/Miami (obviously no Chicago since Rose is out). Those two teams, I feel, are head and shoulders above the rest of the league and no one has a shot to beat them in a 7 games series. LA has a small outside shot because Kobe can go off and they have two great big men...and possibly San Antonio because the big three are all playing well right now....but I think you're reaching pretty hard to be have Memphis as a trendy pick before the playoffs started.

5/8/2012 11:14:24 AM

You're going to seriously say that anything besides the obvious best two teams in the league was a terrible pick? Of course I picked them to meet in the Finals, because in most series, they're going to have three of the best four players. But San Antonio is playing lights out, and its always been more about the sum than the individual parts with them. Memphis beat them last year, and probably should have beaten OKC if not for some terrible late game execution. Those two teams are legit contenders, and Boston will always have a fighter's chance in any series worth Miami. You never have just two contenders at the outset of a 16 team tournament; thats just an incredibly myopic POV. You have the two clear cut favorites (though I still think SA/OKC will be incredibly close), then about 3-4 other teams like I've mentioned who could give either of the aforementioned a run for their money, and even take the series with a few breaks. Its never two teams...and everyone else except in a sport like college football.

5/8/2012 11:34:41 AM

Which means I think they are a terrible pick. If you include Chicago pre-Rose injury...then Memphis is not even in my top 5. You sound like you would have them right outside of OKC/Miami as a favorite...I disagree.

You also said "last year" a lot...which a lot has changed since last year. Friggin Dallas just got swept.

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 11:39 AM. Reason : .]

5/8/2012 11:38:43 AM

Memphis has gained Rudy Gay, lost some of Randolph's effectiveness, and Speights has doubled his minutes, points and rebounds. If anything, they're better than last year.

Its not like I'm pulling this out of my ass.

http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/220869/The_Most_Dangerous_Team_In_The_Western_Conference

5/8/2012 11:44:34 AM

Didn't they play better last year after they lost Rudy Gay?? Probably one of face's famous addition by subtraction guys.

Gasol also hasn't been playing up to his 2011 playoff self (or regular season self for that matter).

There's a reason why they're a middle of the pack Western Conference team this year.

[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason : .]

5/8/2012 11:52:19 AM

yeah Gasol was great in the playoffs last year which is starting to look like a fluke considering he didn't do that either of the last two regular seasons.

Rudy Gay is very overrated but he's not bad. He was .100 WP/48 this year which makes him an average (by the mean, but above average by the median) player.

The real reason Memphis isn't the same team this year is that Randolph is just an average big man this season. It's probably fair to blame that on the injury he suffered early in the year.






SAS is playing at an unbelievable level right now. It's weird how Stephen Jackson/Boris Diaw are suddenly competent players after sulking and playing like they didn't give a shit in Charlotte.

LAC has been terrible on the glass, and VDelNeg's stubborn refusal to address this by playing Jordan/Evans is going to make it very tough for the Clips to upset SAS now.

OKC should wipe the Lakers face off. You can't trust Kobe to do the right thing and let the offense run through Gasol/Bynum.


It's too early to count the Bulls out of their series since they have 2 games at home. I hedged by taking Bulls +425 so I don't slit my wrists if Philly loses 3 straight.


[Edited on May 8, 2012 at 12:07 PM. Reason : a]

5/8/2012 12:02:03 PM

Does it anger anybody that "hard fouls" have become a part of basketball, and that some people watch the game to see a guy get clobbered while defenseless in the air?

It just makes guys like Lebron and Blake easy targets to tackle them by "going for the ball".

5/8/2012 12:24:35 PM

Lol, are you joking? YouTube a Pistons game from the 80s/early 90s for real fouls. Or a Lakers/Celtics game.

5/8/2012 12:34:15 PM

Quote :

"It's weird how Stephen Jackson/Boris Diaw are suddenly competent players after sulking and playing like they didn't give a shit in Charlotte."

i never really saw a lack of effort from SJax in Charlotte, but Diaw obviously didn't give a shit in Charlotte...his issues are all mental, he doesn't want to be a top option like they wanted him to be in Charlotte, he's a french pussy who just wants to be a role player on a winning team...I do think the fact that the guy giving him the ball in San Antonio is also French might help him as well

i don't see anything weird about it though, its just yet another dynamic of basketball that you can't quantify, how shocking you can't plug effort and motivation into a formula as if the players were robots

5/8/2012 12:44:41 PM

^^ It just seems unnecessary. This isnt hockey.

5/8/2012 1:08:38 PM

Actually its not that difficult to quantify. You just adjust their value to be based on their current level of production.

The only damage done is that we are now working with a smaller sample size so your margin of error is slightly greater.

5/8/2012 2:07:30 PM

Its also hard to measure relative value when you go from the worst team in league history to a team thats always at the top. One of Diaw's strengths is his interior passing, but this was rendered moot with Charlotte as easy assist after easy assist bounced cluelessly off Diop's and Bismack's head. Boris is a guy that will always fare better on a better team because his skillset is more of a distributor than a go to guy. Asked to be "the man" in Charlotte, he failed miserably, but as we saw on Phoenix and as were seeing now with SA, the dude can play.

Jackson is different in that he never obviously mailed in games like Diaw, but again, we were asking him to be our best player, which doesn't work when you're not a top 50 guy. He's excelling as the 7th man playing 20 mins a night because his strengths (defense, running the offense when Parker's out) mesh perfectly with SA's blueprint, while his weaknesses (shooting, rebounding) are mitigated, because thats precisely what the rest of the Spurs second unit excels at. They're both ideal fits.

5/8/2012 2:16:30 PM

according to my eye test, somebody like Diaw is giving more effort in a new environment, an environment where the culture is winning championships and making deep playoff runs...he's the same person he was in Charlotte, but he has a reason to try harder now, and his increased productivity is a result of his new team's attitude and his effort

but, according to your interpretation of WP48, Diaw has improved his basketball abilities and has become a much better player than he was a month or two ago...his production differences from Charlotte to San Antonio simply show that Diaw is now a better basketball player than he was with Charlotte...he must have learned some new skills since he is a much better basketball player than he was in March

5/8/2012 2:19:09 PM

Quote :

"eye test"

I thought we'd evolved from such primitive means of evaluation

5/8/2012 2:24:46 PM

The back and forth between face and TT is getting a little old. We get it. Face is correct 90% of the time and TT's broken clock gets that time right every now and then. Just quit posting the same shit over and over again.

(IBTpot.kettle.black)

5/8/2012 2:25:04 PM

^^yeah, watching basketball is meaningless, however plugging numbers into a formula is foolproof

5/8/2012 2:27:58 PM

Basing your 'analysis' from watching basketball makes sense when you have an educated understanding of what exactly is happening. Folks like John Hollinger and Jonathan Tjarks fall into that category. Folks like Slave Famous and TreeTwista10 don't. Thus, I can't fathom why one would possibly take an interest in the 'eye test' of some random asshole on his couch. Thats why the rest of us use facts to support our arguments, and routinely triumph.

5/8/2012 2:32:13 PM

'facts' like WP48 in the Spurs/Jazz series 'prove' that Boris Diaw is a better player than Manu Ginobli

if your eyes don't tell you that its silly to think Diaw is a better player than Ginobli, i don't know what to tell you except that you're wrong

5/8/2012 2:36:20 PM

And I'll continue to defer to the folks who know what they're talking about

5/8/2012 2:39:06 PM

which folks that know what they're talking about think Diaw is better than Ginobli?

5/8/2012 2:41:32 PM

No one's saying that. Even face agreed with you putting Ginobili at the top. It appears you're grasping for straws at this point.

5/8/2012 2:46:07 PM

Diaw has a higher WP48 than Ginobli this series

therefore he's a better player than Ginobli

i'd argue that Diaw is just having a little more efficient series and Ginobli is still the better basketball player

but thats just based on my crude caveman eye test, not a sports economist's formulas

5/8/2012 2:50:12 PM

Quote :

"Diaw has a higher WP48 than Ginobli this series"

does not equal:

Quote :

"therefore he's a better player than Ginobli"

but maybe you do get it....

Quote :

"i'd argue that Diaw is just having a little more efficient series and Ginobli is still the better basketball player"

So WP48 would support this...but you're also an expert...

Quote :

"but thats just based on my crude caveman eye test"

5/8/2012 2:52:55 PM

Quote :

"Diaw has a higher WP48 than Ginobli this series therefore he's a better player than Ginobli"

i knew i should have mentioned face in one of these two lines so it'd be obvious that thats not what i think, but what he bases his entire player rating scale on

i like how in Sports Talk nowadays, watching sports and sharing your opinions based on watching sports is frowned upon, in favor of in depth statistical analysis trumping everything

5/8/2012 2:57:13 PM