i wonder how many people 15 years ago would be adamantly arguing that Stockton should get MVP awards over Jordan

4/7/2007 8:02:19 PM

You're comparing one hall of famer to another.

4/7/2007 8:30:44 PM

so? nash and kobe will both be in the hall of fame too

4/7/2007 8:37:42 PM

Kobe top three basketball players all time

4/8/2007 1:02:11 AM

Jason kidd is awesome and in his prime, he's better than Nash. but if you putt Kidd on the suns, they'd be much worse. Their offense is based on spacing. The spacing is created by the ability of the 1-4 spots to knock down 3 pters. Kidd is a horrible shooter. Kidd is a great defender, rebounder and a good leader but the Suns would be significantly worse with him instead of Nash.

Kobe is obviously the best player in the league. Wade is the only other player that should get a vote.

Am I the only one that thinks Dirk is somehow overrated?

4/8/2007 2:16:59 AM

The only thing Wade is the best in the league at is going to the ground.

Well, strike that. Ginobli gives him a run for his money.

4/8/2007 3:05:48 AM

I think we've just seen recently how good a team the Miami Heat actually are. Some very nice players that also make Wade look better. Well they look pretty good without him!

4/8/2007 1:23:52 PM

Quote :

"there should be no argument over who is the best player right now"

Nobody is arguing this you fucking n00bs. It is the MVP debate. And I think that Nash is still the MVP player.

Quote :

"i wonder how many people 15 years ago would be adamantly arguing that Stockton should get MVP awards over Jordan"

Stockton had Malone, Mark Eaton, Greg Ostertag, Jeff Malone, and Jeff Hornacek would be you fucks answers. To most of you its not about the one player in debate, it's about who is on their teams.

4/8/2007 1:30:47 PM

The only reason i mentioned Wade is because I figured somebody would say something about his finals performance. Though he got some calls, it deserves some serious praise. He also leads the league in PER this year.

Treetwista, i like the Stockton/jordan comparison....except stockton played with the greatest power forward of all time and people realized that. (apologies to Tim Duncan) Nash is better than stockton was offensively. Just slightly.

4/8/2007 1:30:49 PM

Quote :

"Treetwista, i like the Stockton/jordan comparison....except stockton played with the greatest power forward of all time and people realized that. (apologies to Tim Duncan) Nash is better than stockton was offensively. Just slightly."

See this guy proved my point less than a minute after I posted.

4/8/2007 1:31:52 PM

Quote :

"Of all the bummers inflicted on NBA fans this season (check the sidebar to the right), a flaccid MVP race received the least attention because everyone seems happy to hand Dirk Nowitzki the trophy and call it a day. Statistically, Nowitzki submitted superior seasons in 2005 and 2006, and his 2007 stats ranked behind Larry Bird's best nine seasons, Charles Barkley's best 10 seasons and Karl Malone's best 11 seasons. Nowitzki's shooting percentages were remarkable (50 percent on field goals, 90 percent on free throws, 42 percent on 3-pointers), but his relevant averages (24.6 points, 9.0 rebounds, 3.4 assists) look like a peak season from Tom Chambers. He can't affect games unless he's scoring, doesn't make his teammates better and plays decent defense at best. If you're giving the MVP to someone because of his offense, he'd better be a killer offensive player. You can't say that about the 2007 Dirk Nowitzki. The argument for the big German is simple: He's the most reliable crunch-time scorer in the league and the best player on a 69-win team. Of course, when the '97 Bulls won 69 games, you could have described Michael Jordan the exact same way ... and he finished second to Malone. Same for Jerry West on the '72 Lakers when they won 69 games (he finished second to Kareem). Then again, maybe we should scrap the historical comparisons after Steve Nash's back-to-back trophies transformed the award into what it is now: a popularity contest. It's a 900-number and Ryan Seacrest away from becoming a low-key version of "American Idol." And since people want the big German to win the award this year, he's going to win it. In the irony of ironies, Nash played his greatest season at a time when everyone took him for granted and paid more attention to Nowitzki. This makes no sense to me, but few things about the NBA make sense these days. Regardless, neither of them is getting my vote."

Quote :

" Question No. 2: In a giant pickup game with every NBA player waiting to play and two fans forced to pick sides with their lives depending on the outcome of the game (I think this is how the annual Rucker League tournament works), who would be the first player picked based on the way everyone played that season? Answer: If you'd honestly pick Nash or Nowitzki over Kobe, I don't know what to tell you. There's no other acceptable answer for this question."

[Edited on April 23, 2007 at 12:52 AM. Reason : a]

4/23/2007 12:30:52 AM

I really do believe Kobe and Nash are both more deserving than dirk.

4/23/2007 1:32:30 AM

half of rally's posts are just copy and pastes of bill simmons quotes

4/23/2007 2:02:00 AM

Bill Simmons is sorta God-Like

4/23/2007 2:52:48 AM

The other half of his post are wikipedia, all day long with him posing as if they're his words. Fact.

This thread is a joke btw. Where is Kobe when his team is being victored all over??? I thought MVP's were supposed to win BIG games for their teams? Not just victories over the timberwolves in which he scores like 60 pts.

If not Nash, then Dirk all day. Nash should get it (AGAIN) but I get the feeling politics are the only things preventing the reigning champion.

4/23/2007 2:56:56 AM

^^^^^Good thing the MVP isn't about who you'd want on your team in a pick-up game.

Great 4th quarter there by Kobe, btw. 1-10 to end a crucial playoff game is a great way to show just how clutch you are.

PS, if you're gonna quote Bill Simmons, you might as well quote the rest of the article, where he says what everybody else knows, that Nash is much more valuable a player.

Quote :

"10. Gilbert Arenas 9. Carlos Boozer 8. Kobe Bryant Averaging 41 points in the past 31 days, a stretch that featured two 40-point games, four 50-point games and two 60-point games. Absolutely remarkable, even if the Lakers went 8-8 over that stretch and will get slaughtered by Phoenix in Round 1 because they reverted back to "Let's stand around and wait for Kobe to take over" mode. So much for the round of "Mr. Team Play" stories (can I have that two months of my life back?). And for anyone arguing that Kobe deserves MVP consideration for carrying an obviously mediocre team ... um, isn't he the same guy who pushed Shaq out of town and created this mess in the first place? (I can't stick him higher than eighth. I just can't.) 7. Chris Bosh This season's Elton Brand: Right place, right time, feel-good story, and he's not quite as good as this ranking. 6. Tim Duncan After 850 regular-season and playoff games, three 100-game seasons and more than 32,000 minutes logged on his odometer, he's not the player he was five years ago. But you know what? In a weird way, he's just as effective. He's a smarter defender and a much better leader, he knows how to pick his spots, he's insanely competitive and one of the most unexpectedly entertaining players to see in person for anyone who gives a crap about basketball. Nobody communicates with his teammates as well, nobody commands more respect, and there's never a second when you forget he's out there. There's not another player in the league quite like him. By the way, I seriously considered giving him the MVP for helping to rid the world of Joey Crawford last weekend. So long, Joey. Don't forget to downgrade from first class to coach on your flight back to hell. 5. LeBron James You know somebody's good when he can spend the first half of the season on cruise control and still manage to crack the top-five of an MVP ballot. 4. Tracy McGrady The lost MVP candidate this season. Lemme know if any of these tidbits interest you: A. The Rockets were 50-21 when he played this season and 2-8 without him. B. When Yao went down for 32 games with a fractured kneecap, T-Mac carried the team to a 20-12 record and boosted his stats to a 29-6-6 for that stretch. C. Other than Yao, his best teammates were Shane Battier, Luther Head, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes, Juwan Howard, Dikembe Mutombo and Yugoslavian gunner Turdo Sandowicz. D. On a personal note, I don't trust basketball stats beyond a certain level because they can't interpret somebody's general impact on a game. Tim Duncan averages a 20-10 every night with two blocks ... does that measure everything he does for the Spurs? Of course not. Along those same lines, T-Mac and his cousin finished this season with almost identical numbers (a 25-5-6 for T-Mac, a 25-6-5 for V.C.), but unless you watched the games, you wouldn't know that Vince happens to be a streaky offensive player, a moody teammate and a defensive liability, and T-Mac happens to be a great teammate and superb all-around player who only goes for his numbers when absolutely necessary (like when he recently bumped his numbers to push Houston into the fourth seed). If you asked 100 NBA players who they'd rather play with between Kobe, Vince, Arenas and T-Mac ... T-Mac would win the vote in a landslide. You win with Tracy McGrady. Wasn't always the case, but it's the case now. He's a true superstar. Now he needs to prove this in the playoffs. Please. 3. Dirk Nowitzki A well-done and thoroughly efficient season. I enjoyed it. He took the Fist Pump/Sneer to new heights. I just don't think he was the MVP. 2. Steve Nash Other than Kobe, the one star who consistently gets the "Look, There's No Way We're F------- Losing This Game!" look on his face, an absolute staple for any MVP candidate. He also navigated an arduous situation in Phoenix those first few weeks, back when the Suns were figuring out how to incorporate everyone into the mix and Amare and Marion were embroiled in a silly alpha-dog battle. As I described in my column about the Suns three months ago, they were on the verge of imploding and Nash wouldn't allow it to happen. He raised everyone else to a higher place. Which brings me to the Nash/Dirk thing. You could have switched Dirk with Duncan, KG, Bosh, Brand or any other elite forward and the Mavs still would have won 55-65 games. But the 2007 Suns were built like a complicated Italian race car, with specific features tailored to a specific type of driver, and Nash happened to be the only person on the planet who could have driven the car without crashing into a wall. The degree of difficulty was off the charts. So yes, this was my favorite Nash season yet. At the same time, I watched too many smart teams attack him defensively (Dallas, New Jersey, Golden State and Chicago, to name four, and even the Kings figured out to exploit him recently) and can't accept my MVP being such a liability on one end of the floor. I felt this way two years ago; I felt this way last year; and I feel this way now. Anyway, I wish we handled MVP awards, the Oscars and the Emmys the same way -- if there's no deserving candidate in a given year, let's roll the award over to the following year and make it worth two awards, kinda like how golfers roll over a tie in a Skins match and count the next hole for twice as much. I never understood the concept of dispensing awards out of obligation over anything else. An award should be earned, not handed out. Unfortunately, those aren't the rules. And since somebody needs to win this year, my vote goes to ... 1. The Fans Why can't we win for putting up with such a brutal season? Aren't we the real MVPs? If Time Magazine can name "Us" as the 2006 Person of the Year, then "The Fans" can win the 2007 NBA MVP, dammit. And you know what? After enduring Tankapalooza 2007, a wasted trade deadline and a regular season best described as "apathetic," we deserve it. Bring on the playoffs. Please. (PS: Congrats on your first MVP Award.) "

[Edited on April 23, 2007 at 2:58 AM. Reason : 2]

4/23/2007 2:57:08 AM

^Hahah great find. Can you say PWNT by your own methods?

4/23/2007 11:24:23 AM

How are you going to say I was pwnt by that?

Every point I've made all along about Nash is demonstrated in that article.

He's a great PG but he is defensive liability and won the past two MVP awards because its degenerated into a popularity contest.

This was definitely his best season yet, and people are arguing maybe he shouldn't be the MVP because they realize how dumb it is to give a guy 3 MVP awards when he was undeserving of all of them.


I've used wikipedia one time you idiot. That was dig up Ed Cota statistics to prove what a donkey you were. Sorry I didn't have Ed Cota's 3-pt % from 8 years ago memorized.

4/23/2007 12:01:07 PM

ummm Steve Nash should win it if he won it last year. The problem is, he only won the last two years because he is white. Not to start a racial debate, but he is "popular" because he's short and unathletic, an underdog.

I've always believed Kidd was a much better PG in his prime (one of the best defenders and still the best rebounding 1 in the league)....but watching the way Nash gets whatever he wants on offense is making me rethink that.

Nash is a defensive liability because of his lack of lateral quickness, but he is a great team defender. He helps on the middle and seems to coordinate the other four players on both ends of the court. Granted, he can't keep Jason Terry or Tony Parker in front of him or stop Baron Davis from backing him down, but he is somewhat underrated on the defensive end. I'm not even saying he is average, he just simply isn't bad enough to disqualify him from winning the MVP.

4/23/2007 12:56:30 PM

Quote :

"The problem is, he only won the last two years because he is white."

Please stop saying this bullshit.

If Dirk wins this year is it because he is white too?

They are both fucking foreigners. I mean come on. The press, which is AMERICAN would not vote for a guy just because he is white if they are foreign.

4/23/2007 1:02:18 PM

canadien is not really "foreign"
even though it is

[Edited on April 23, 2007 at 1:06 PM. Reason : kj]

4/23/2007 1:06:35 PM

^ok, then we'll use the fact that he was born in south africa.

4/23/2007 1:15:47 PM

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

4/23/2007 1:36:27 PM

Quote :

"Not to start a racial debate, but he is "popular" because he's short and unathletic, an underdog."

Quote :

"unathletic"

????? WTF ?????

because althleticism is only defined as the ability to jump, right? It's not being a good shooter, one of the fastest and best ball handlers, unbeleivable dexterity and coordination, and unmatched vision?

none of those are components of an upper level athlete?

YOU SIR, ARE A MORON.

4/23/2007 1:40:59 PM

4/23/2007 1:41:46 PM

LOL.

FUCK KOBE.

BUT, LOL.

4/23/2007 1:47:30 PM

athleticism is not just jumping. There are other aspects of athleticism that Nash doesn't posess and who is a moron? becuase i used athleticism in its accepted form? ok troll.

Nash is one of the three or four best shooters in the league. So that retard J Mac who hit the 3s in High school is more athletic than Amare stoudamire because he can shoot?

Don't just be a dick. Especially if I'm advocating for Nash to be the MVP. Nash can't play D because he is unathletic. Everyone in this thread knew exactly what that meant except for you.

Though David Thorpe of ESPN.com goes against the grain and considers "mind, vision, handle" as a part of athleticism." but he prefaces his columns with "unlike others I believe athleticism is...."

4/23/2007 5:34:31 PM

^Way to dig your hole deeper. Now you just sound stupid.

Quote :

"Which brings up the biggest misconception about Nash: that he is an overachieving nonathlete who has made good mostly on smarts and hustle. But to suggest that Nash isn't a good athlete is to define athlete in the narrowest fashion. In many ways Nash is one of the best athletes in the NBA. He probably could have played professional soccer (his brother, Martin, does), and he was an excellent youth hockey player. "He wins at pretty much everything he does," says Whitley, who lists arm wrestling and beer chugging as the only two events in which he can take Nash. "He won't pick up a golf club for nine months, and then he'll shoot in the low 80s. His hand-eye coordination is amazing." To Nash, the rap on him is a matter of semantics. "In our business people always equate athleticism with explosiveness, not with coordination, agility, footwork or creativity," he says. "I know I could learn to do anything, basically. I've always been able to pick things up athletically, even though I might not be dunking the ball." Even that last statement is not entirely true. At a practice two months ago Nash surprised teammates by dunking twice, once with his left hand off his right foot and once off two feet on an alley-oop from Raja Bell. Neither dunk, Nash takes pains to point out, was what one would call thunderous. "But," he says, "just barely still counts." "

from this weeks SI

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/chris_ballard/04/17/friendly.fire0423/index.html

4/23/2007 8:40:48 PM

4/23/2007 8:41:53 PM

^^^^^^^^^however many

hahahahahahahah
that picture is fucking hilarious

4/23/2007 10:57:01 PM

Good article. but you have a quote of Nash's brother calling Steve athletic. I'm sure he's impartial. Then you have Steve Nash calling himself athletic. I agree that all of those traits (coordination, dexterity, vision) should be considered a part of athleticism, but as Steve Nash says in that quote "In our business people always equate athleticism with explosiveness.." I merely described Steve Nash's game the way most analyst, coaches, fans or other people in the "business" would describe it.

Jumping ability aside, I really believe Nash should be the MVP this year. It is a shame Dirk is being rewarded because he's on a team full of stars. Replace Dirk with Chris Bosh, Elton Brand, hell even zach randolph and they win 60 plus games. Nobody could replace Nash and do what they do.

4/24/2007 12:09:08 AM

Quote :

"Nobody could replace Nash and do what they do."

4/24/2007 12:12:48 AM

What a JOKE this thread is.

4/24/2007 11:37:29 PM

the nba is fucking racist

its like 90 percent negro and people talkin bout dirk or nash getting it...they are fucking honkies in a freaking 90 percent negro league

4/24/2007 11:40:27 PM

nash plays with 2 allstars and 2 six men of the year

stockton played with a hall of famer

jordan played with a hall of famer

kobe plays with....lamar odem?

4/24/2007 11:59:37 PM

Who is Lamar Odem?

I love how some of you idiots cannot even spell names right.

In here arguing sports and don't know jack shit.

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 12:06 AM. Reason : ^Who is the one that ran Shaq off? Tell me that, he had help]

4/25/2007 12:06:04 AM

if he was better i could probably spell his name. thats how you know he's not that good. luke walton would not start for ncstate.

4/25/2007 12:11:51 AM

gtfo

kobe had his career set paired with the most dominating big man ever

he wanted the spotlight and the L's apparenty

4/25/2007 12:13:04 AM

shaq was always overated and demanded it be "his team". shaq is the one that left.

4/25/2007 12:16:11 AM

Quote :

"luke walton would not start for ncstate."

Suspend this douche.

Luke Walton is a solid NBA player and starred in college.

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 12:17 AM. Reason : ^How has Shaq done since he left BTW???]

4/25/2007 12:16:47 AM

hes just a 3 version of mcroberts. hes not a great shooter, he can't post or drive so his great passing ability is useless in the nba. and now he's not even playing defense.

then kwame brown is your best big man(beating out a 16year old)? yes the same kwame brown from the wizards is an nba starter. what a joke of a team.

^shaqs on a loaded team with one of the best players in hte nba and about 7 or 8 other solid nba starters and getting swept by the bulls right now

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 12:26 AM. Reason : in other words shaq aint shit]

dwayne wade
antione walker
jayson williams
gary payton
alonzo mourning
posey
eddie jones
jason kapono
udonis haslem

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 12:30 AM. Reason : lmao any legit nba all-star would have no problem winning it all in <20 games with that supporting c]

4/25/2007 12:24:38 AM

the suns have two all stars...that have inflated stats because of nash. they also play more minutes they most nba starters. they are good, but neither has their own defense....marion gets his points from fast breaks and rebounds...because he can't create for himself and is only a decent spot up shooter. neither him or stoudamire have any sort of post game. Amare scores from pick and rolls courtesy of Nash. I'm not saying they aren't both good players, but they both should give Nash a portion of their pay check. Nash has a better supporting cast than Kobe obviously....but he wins with it. Dirk has a better supporting cast than Nash though.

I'm guessing tonight doesn't prove anything in this argument.

Shaq? overrated? that thought is just retarded.

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 1:19 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on April 25, 2007 at 1:39 AM. Reason : .]

4/25/2007 1:14:20 AM

Aristotle

Quote :

" shaq was always overated and demanded it be "his team". shaq is the one that left."

Wow, that's a whole lot of stupid in one short post.

I don't even know where to start with this one.

4/25/2007 1:21:20 AM

how can you be considered the most dominant player in the game when you shoot 40% fts and are a no-factor late in the game?

4/25/2007 2:06:08 AM

you just are if your name is shaq

4/25/2007 2:17:41 AM

Shaq will undoubtedly go down as one of the top 5 players ever to play the game.

The jury is still out on Kobe's place in history.

4/25/2007 2:21:49 AM

I'm not gonna lie shaq is a great. he has perfected the ability to exploit what the refs have allowed him to get away with but when you look at guys in top ten discussion they could dominate a game AND crunch time AND make clutch free throws. i don't understand how you can put a guy who is a late game liability amongst the greatest to ever play the game. it just doesn't make sense.

4/25/2007 2:27:35 AM

look...if tmac could have made it a habit of at least making the second round he would be considered the best ball player in the land

4/25/2007 2:36:07 AM

look...if my aunt had balls then she'd be my uncle

4/25/2007 2:39:27 AM

I don't usually agree with Prawn Star

but that was pretty fucking funny

4/25/2007 2:44:19 AM