awesome.

4/7/2008 3:26:23 PM

i'm looking forward to the Dinner Party, but something that has bothered me for about 1.5 seasons now (i've probably commented on it a couple times in this thread already) is that in an effort to mix things up and show us the characters outside of the office, the "documentary crew" has to follow them to some weird places - Dwight's farm for Jim and Pam's sleepover, Dwight's farm with Ryan, to the woods in Surviorman, Michael's apartment for his house closing, Jim's apartment for a part (when dwight and angela first hooked up), Michael's apartment for Halloween, camped out in Oscar's driveway, to Poor Richard's Pub, etc.

Most of these outings are pretty fun, but it really breaks the realism of the hand-held camera, documentary style when the characters go to these places, but they don't even acknowledge that a camera is present. In the office, characters are always looking at the camera and playing off of it, usually with awareness that it is always present, but whenever they get into an atmosphere like a house party, no one even looks at it. It seems totally bogus to me that you'd walk into someones apartment for a party and have a camera crew there (at least 2 camera-men, judging from the angles, but I guess just 1 if you ignore the shots and angles) and not even take a 2nd glance at it.

4/7/2008 3:55:05 PM

^^ thats how i would describe page 9

[Edited on April 7, 2008 at 3:55 PM. Reason : shit.]

4/7/2008 3:55:19 PM

^^in branch wars, when jim was hiding from karen, the documentary camera dude gave away his position. jim popped the camera and looked at the camera guy like "wtf?"

i don't care- as long as it's funny

4/7/2008 5:29:11 PM

^^^
If you want a documentary, watch a documentary. If you want a reality tv show, then watch one of those.

This is the Office. It's a comedy. When they want to make an aside or a joke about the "camera crew", they make that joke. When the jokes don't need the "documentary" style, it is conveniently ignored.

I'd be rather annoyed if they tried to make up some excuse for why the camera crew is at certain locations. This show is in season four, you can't expect them to never leave the office. (Otherwise you would all bitch about how it gets too repetitive or isn't creative enough.)

Comedy > Realism

Besides, half the comedy in the show is Jim's realistic reaction to the craziness around him. Who cares if the camerawork isn't realistic as long as the acting is. (Of course, certain characters are pretty unrealistic, but that's beside the point.)

[Edited on April 7, 2008 at 5:36 PM. Reason : ^ exactly]

4/7/2008 5:35:50 PM

^^ yeah, i liked that, and i would like to see more things similar to it.

i just can't get the picture out of my head of a camera guy following all these people around on all their personal business, and they just go on with their normal (often very private) conversations like no one was there. I think it's just a personal thing that I need to get over, but for the first 1.5 seasons or so, they were very careful about how they worked the cameras to make it like a realistic documentary.

Lately, though, they've been fudging it and taking several unrealistic and artistic camera angles. Like when Dwight took Ryan out to his farm, at one point I think I counted 5 distinct camera angles, each requiring a different cameraman (obviously shot in different takes, but if it was live-action, it would have required 5 camera, most of them showing one or more of the others in their frame). Then last season when Michael was depressed (or maybe earlier this season) and he ran out to the train, there was at least 3 or 4 angles. There were long shots of both of them, close ups of each, angles from the back inside the car, then "artistic" shots looking lengthwise down the train at their feet, again of course never showing any of the other cameras.

So, again, still funny, but I guess i just need to accept the fact that to keep things fresh and mix it up, I need to stop thinking of the cameras/cameramen as another character.

[Edited on April 7, 2008 at 5:41 PM. Reason : .]

4/7/2008 5:40:26 PM

i like to think of it as life going on outside from work

sometimes it's hard to keep the two seperate, and some people do hang out with their coworkers away from work. that's how i rationalize it at least.

^also in branch wars, remember the car ride over? there were numerous camera angles. just makes for better presentation

[Edited on April 7, 2008 at 6:00 PM. Reason : Ø]

4/7/2008 5:58:49 PM

^^I know exactly where you're coming from, I fell in the same trap. Early on it was obvious it was supposed to be shot like a documentary, then as the show progressed they seemed to make an effort to drop that angle. So then just when I would get comfortable not having to rationalize where the camera crew was, etc. they'd have a scene re-introducing the documentary aspect.

For instance, I forget which episode it was but one morning the cameraman was the first to enter the office so he had to turn the office lights on and found Dwight sleeping on the couch. My girlfriend and I shared a confused look after that scene before we both realized who actually turned the lights on

4/7/2008 6:14:55 PM

yea i agree. i think the realistic documentary style camerawork has always been the best part of the show.

there is really no point in watching without it.

i guess i'll have to find some other show to nitpick and complain about.

4/7/2008 7:17:31 PM

I loved in the Branch Wars episode where Karen sees Jim because the camera person looks up while he's ducking and she sees them, haha.

4/7/2008 7:53:02 PM

Quote :

"^also in branch wars, remember the car ride over? there were numerous camera angles. just makes for better presentation"

yeah, i actually meant to mention that earlier.
Whenever they go somewhere in a car, I think they actually do try to retain the documentary style, because there seems to be 3 cameras mounted in the front of the car - one on each column and one wide view in the middle of the dash. Whenever they do this, the video quality is worse and the lighting is bad, and there is no panning and zooming. I think this is intentional, like the crew has just set up stationary cameras inside the cars (I'm willing to overlook the absurdity of the employees mounting multiple cameras in their car) instead of the more traditional camera mounting outside the side windows or on the hood looking into the windshield.

of course when they're in a car, often the cameraman is in the backseat, like when Michael and Jan were driving to HQs for her deposition or when Dwight and Ryan went out to his farm. But whenever they go out in a car, there seems to be another car just for cameramen, because they always have additional shots not taken by the backseat camera or the dashboard cams.

again, i'm willing to overlook all this for the sake of comedy, but unfortunately it's now something that's stuck in my head and I just can't stop myself from counting the camera angles or thinking about how many cameras must, for example, be inside Michael's office at all times.


Actually - the one thing I can't forgive is the episode when Michael and Dwight went out on a call and ended up driving into a lake (i think S4E01?). There was a backseat camera who was interacting with Michael and Dwight. When they came to a stop, and the GPS was saying turn right and Michael and Dwight were arguing over whether to turn right or go to the next road, the camera conspicuously never panned to the right, of course to hide the (obvious) joke. That was very forced, because in the amount of time Michael and Dwight were arguing, it would have been completely natural for the camera to look to the right, but it stayed trained right on Michael.
oh well, no big deal really.....

4/7/2008 10:49:07 PM

oh
my
fucking
god


i cant believe people have typed this many words about the camera direction and realism of a comedy

4/7/2008 10:52:51 PM

i don't understand the train of thought that says if you're a fan of something you can't be critical of it.

This happens, in particular I think, to fans of The Office and Lost. As soon as you critique one of them in any way, implying that they're not perfect, people will tell you to fuck off and go watch something else if all you're going to do is complain.

4/7/2008 11:41:44 PM

Yeah at the end of my rant I thought about adding "but don't get me wrong, it's an excellent show all around and I'm a huge fan, I'm just adding to the discussion"

But I figured anyone reading would be smart enough to pick that up. Obviously I was mistaken.

4/7/2008 11:49:19 PM

its not that you cant be critical it is just that i can't believe you wast that much (internet) breath complaining about something so trivial as the realism of a comedy show. comedy shows should be judged on their comedy not on rather their camera direction.

i mean it is all a matter of opinion i guess i just cant believe there were multiple posts of multiple paragraphs about that.

4/8/2008 12:18:07 AM

i'm not complaining about the "realism of a comedy show". But, the entire premise of this show, right from the beginning, was that it was being filmed in a documentary style by a documentary crew inside Dunder Mifflin. Of course this premise was taken from the UK version, and it worked fine for them because they only had a 13-episode run. The nature of TV in the US, where shows can go on indefinitely, really makes this whole premise a bit difficult to work with. However, for the first 1 or 2 seasons, they stuck to it pretty closely. I'm just commenting that while I'm still enjoying the show and still think it's very good and very funny, the divergence from the hand-held single camera point of view is distracting to me personally.

4/8/2008 8:04:34 AM

Wait, The Office isn't a reality show?

4/8/2008 10:04:40 AM

Ok, I've thought about it some more and I think I've pinpointed my problem (with the show, at least).
Since season one, I've basically thought of the camera as another character in the show.
1) The camera has a reason to be there - it is filming some kind of documentary. It's not like other sitcoms where the camera is an invisible, all-seeing point of view
2) The other characters interact with the camera regularly, through the one-on-one interviews and by generally being aware that the camera is there and adjusting their behavior accordingly.
3) The camera moves, and often it's (intentionally) obvious that it is shoulder mounted, so you feel in close contact with the other characters via the camera

So given all that, I have grown accustom to just viewing the camera/cameraman as just another character. Therefore, when the camera starts acting differently, I can't help but notice and it feels like it is going "out of character", just like when Jim or Pam does something that is completely out of character for the personalities we've grown used to from them.
Now, if you were watching another sitcom (take Friends, for example), and all of a sudden Joey started talking to or making faces at the camera, this would bother you, right? Or if Rachel jumped into a cab, and the camera jumped in behind her and jostled around like it was hand-held, that would seem weird, because usually there would just be multiple angles and they would jump straight from shot to shot.

I'm happy to accept Duncan's view that when it's appropriate, the camera is used a secondary character, and when the story needs to advance otherwise, the documentary style is "conveniently ignored". That doesn't mean that I won't notice when it happens, though.

4/8/2008 10:28:40 AM

Quote :

"oh my fucking god i cant believe people have typed this many words about the camera direction and realism of a comedy"

i agree.

it's just a fictional tv show. if you like it, watch it. if not, don't. there's no reason to read so much into camera views and perspectives.

it's a comedy, don't think about it so hard.

i LOVE the show and cannot wait until thursday. i've missed everybody

[Edited on April 8, 2008 at 10:42 AM. Reason : ]

4/8/2008 10:42:07 AM

Quote :

"if you like it, watch it. if not, don't. "

again with the "you're not allowed to critique a show that you like" attitude....

4/8/2008 10:53:44 AM

i don't care what your opinion on the show is, i'm just saying you're getting too worked up over insignificant shit.

4/8/2008 11:01:11 AM

I'm fine with the camera work, I consider it a hybrid that they have come to find works best for the show. <-- this should be the length of someone's critique of insignificant shit. Half a thread is a bit much....

I just saw the preview for this episode on NBC and LOL at Dwight choking himself up about not being invited to the dinner party.

4/8/2008 11:31:33 AM

This one time I was watching saved by the bell, and zach turned and talked to the camera and my head exploded.


but seriously, if you overthink it yeah, the camera doesn't make sense at times. To take it even further who the hell would do a documentary on a paper company? But it works, and it is funny, and you have every right to critique but we already get it. To continue to bring it up to people who have accepted the inconsistancy just gets redundant.

4/8/2008 12:25:15 PM

the point of the show is to be funny. It is. Nothing else matters

4/8/2008 1:20:15 PM

cant wait

4/8/2008 1:33:38 PM

so when does the office return?


http://brentroad.com/images/kiss.gif

4/8/2008 1:38:16 PM

Thursday, new 30 rock too.

4/8/2008 1:47:56 PM

So maybe after so many years filming the "office" the documentary crew decided to up thier budget and add a few extra cameras. A documentary doesn't always have to be shot with a single camera. Maybe they simply wanted to expand thier ability to film the characters. This would explain the evolution of the single camera documentary style to a more diverse multi-camera style. I mean they still make sure the audience knows that the camera is there (like in Branch wars in the car, the lower quality car mounted cameras, and the character commentaries).

But i do agree that the characters seem less distracted by the camera crew as compared to earlier seasons. Maybe they just got used to it? I mean they still have the character commentaries every episode which is a direct example of the documentary style filming, and jim still looks at the camera every now and then with that face. So it seems like they just got used to the camera, rather than sloppy writing techniques.

Quote :

"but whenever they get into an atmosphere like a house party, no one even looks at it. It seems totally bogus to me that you'd walk into someones apartment for a party and have a camera crew there (at least 2 camera-men, judging from the angles, but I guess just 1 if you ignore the shots and angles) and not even take a 2nd glance at it."

But almost all of the people at the house party already knew about the camera. If you notice during the bar-scene while they're watching the commericial, the non-office characters recognize the camera a bit more.

I guess maybe they realize they're not at work anymore and thus not being as seriously filmed, so they relax and let the camera do its work. I mean seriously, if you're at work sitting at your desk, your attention is obviously going to wonder towards the camera, but if you're at a party and distracted, then you might not pay as much attention to the camera crew. Just one explanation i guess. If you compare the work related trips (like branch wars) to non-work related trips then you'll see the camera crew plays a bigger part in work related trips than non-work related trips.

[Edited on April 8, 2008 at 6:29 PM. Reason : .]

4/8/2008 6:21:50 PM

within the context of the universe of the show, at what point is the documentary crew's footage going to see the light of day? they've been filming for 3+ years so it can't be too long before the footage makes it way to either television or film. and what effects will this have on the characters? will their newly found mini-celebrity status make them less relatable/likable or will it enliven the series and open up potentially hilarious comedic possibilities?

[Edited on April 8, 2008 at 6:35 PM. Reason : ...]

4/8/2008 6:32:45 PM

^ well, on that (facecious) point, i think it would be cool at some point to work in a storyline where footage from earlier seasons come into play somehow.
This happened briefly in the episode where Pam and Jim were caught, where the cameraman followed one of them outside of the office and caught them kissing, then showed it to them back in the conference room. I thought that was some cool self-referential work, and it'd be fun to see it happen, at least once, in the future.

actually - it would be funny if, for example, Ryan used some of the old footage to show his bosses how messed up Michael's office is or something

4/8/2008 6:41:19 PM

^my comment was sincere. like you, i'm down with unnecessary (according to some) analysis. and i too, find people who say things like "it's a comedy, don't think about it so hard" to be kind of dumb. its not thinking "so hard," its just thinking.

4/8/2008 7:06:12 PM

ah, ok. i thought you were jumping on board with the stop-over-analyzing crowd by presenting a pretty unlikey scenario.
however, i would like them to explore at least some aspect of self-referencing video or documentary-on-TV or something

4/8/2008 7:40:43 PM

In the British version, although I've never seen it, after the season is done they do a "follow up" episode that takes place after the documentary aired on television.

So what I would guess is that whenever the show ends, the final episodes might actually address what is done with the footage and how it changes the characters and crap like that.

4/8/2008 11:22:36 PM

The BBC "Life after the Office" episode was PERFECT.

The way Garth ran the company and seeing David Brent trying to hold on to the last bit he had with the office.

I admit I got choked up when Dawn and Tim got together at the end.

4/9/2008 11:25:53 AM

^^yeah david brent was doing pathetic appearances at bars and stuff. they definitely took the doc part of the show more seriously in england. but as has been said before, it doesn't really make sense given how sitcoms are given FAR longer runs here than on the bbc.

4/9/2008 11:36:37 AM

So does anyone watch the show "Extras"?

4/9/2008 3:40:42 PM

I've read Creed's blog...

EXCITED ABOUT TONIGHT!!!

4/10/2008 9:45:47 AM

5 MINUTES AND COUNTING!!!

HAHAHA Michael sleeps at the foot of the bed.

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 9:09 PM. Reason : .]

4/10/2008 8:57:11 PM

this isn't funny, at all, thus far.

i'm disappointed.

4/10/2008 9:13:39 PM

Maybe i'm just in the right mood or something, because i'm rollin' over here...

4/10/2008 9:19:30 PM

disappointing

4/10/2008 9:31:45 PM

i think they pushed the limit a little too much.

4/10/2008 9:32:30 PM

Quote :

"disappointing"

agreed

4/10/2008 9:33:18 PM

wasn't horrible. had some good laughs, but weak overall.
obviously they are trying to make it as awkward and uncomfortable as possible. They do this great when they're in the office, especially in the earlier seasons, but they (the writers, actors, directors, someone) are just not able to take that same kind of atmosphere to the romantic relationships or outside of the office.

btw, Angela is about 7 months pregnant. you wont' see her stomach for the rest of the season

4/10/2008 9:35:24 PM

simply awful.

4/10/2008 9:38:24 PM

we waited 5 months for this garbage

4/10/2008 10:05:33 PM

I wouldn't call it garbage but something just seemed off about it. WAAAY too much looking at the camera.

4/10/2008 10:08:53 PM

It was pretty well received at my apartment.

Tom Cruise!

4/10/2008 11:00:42 PM

One of the worst Office episodes I can remember.

Seems every show that has come back from the strike has been off so far. Nothing close to like they were pre strike. Seems like they are just throwing anything out there to get an episode ASAP.

4/10/2008 11:18:54 PM

But I thought:

Quote :

"the very next show after we went on strike was going to be the best show ever"

Not a funny episode.

[Edited on April 10, 2008 at 11:43 PM. Reason : -]

4/10/2008 11:42:35 PM