Crazy dude puts someone's life in danger and tells them they can get out of it if they use a hacksaw to cut off a limb. Yeah, no connection.

3/9/2009 6:10:06 PM

A guy on fire chopping off his hand with a butchers knife versus a guy trying to escape a room sawing off his foot. I know Saw well, and I doubt I would have thought that.

But aside from my preference for the original scene; chopping the dude in the forehead graphically showing every whack was not necessary. If that were the reason why they chose to change the scene, why go with brutal mutilation over something more like the original? They just wanted the gore.

[Edited on March 9, 2009 at 6:13 PM. Reason : sp]

3/9/2009 6:13:17 PM

i would not make a connection to Saw at all either, however the original scene from the comic did make me immediately think of Mad Max, which had almost the exact same scene

3/9/2009 6:21:46 PM

There's an effort, perhaps a misguided one, to make everything that Rorschach does a little more brutal to try and round out the psychosis of his character because we don't get to see the number he does on the psychiatrist and things like that. As an example, Big Figure's henchman gets his head slammed into the toilet to break it and trigger the electrocution a moment later, as opposed to the original version where the guy comes in to grab Kovacs and he breaks the toilet with a kick.

3/9/2009 6:24:19 PM

Quote :

"Think of it like Jaybee's stance on thinking for himself. Why bother when you can be spoon-fed every answer?"

haha, this guy is talking shit... I point out potential holes that he just blindly accepts and I am the one being spoon fed


I run rap, tell MCs to watch their backs

[Edited on March 9, 2009 at 6:47 PM. Reason : d]

3/9/2009 6:41:28 PM

i think the point of showing every whack with the cleaver was to illustrate that this was the point that rorschach really lost his shit. He was so disgusted with what the guy had done that he killed him, and just killing him wasn't enough. It drove him way over the edge.

I believe the scene even started with him saying how young he was then, yada yada yada..... enter scum of the earth child murderer. And from that you got full on psycho rorschach who we had been following along with in the story.

3/9/2009 8:26:33 PM

Yeah I can see how it makes up for not being able to see more about him to be able to understand his extreme sense of justice. That's a good point about the psychologist, and even though I loved that part of the book, I thought the "What do YOU see now" was bad ass. I'm also thankful that they still had most of the side characters, like the comic reader, news stand guy, and the psychologist. I wish they were able to fit in the interactions between Rorschach and the news stand guy. When I pointed out that Rorschach was the guy holding the sign people had a hard time remembering who that was.

3/9/2009 10:27:05 PM

Quote :

"I point out potential holes that he just blindly accepts and I am the one being spoon fed"

In a movie where there is a character with every super power imaginable, where his past and present and future are one, where his very thoughts on the existance of life trivializes what many people hold dear and close...
You chose to babble on about how long mail has been sitting in a crate, a scene is simply meant to be an "Uh-oh" type cliffhanger. Really?

-------

Moving on to the people who actually cared to pay attention to the movie, I am probably gonna pick up the book / graphic novel and I was just curious after the past couple of pages...
Is the movie much more graphic than the novel? I had wondered if a lot of the 'brutal' scenes were built up with more blood than the novel. I had heard the novel was more situational than action.

Just curious.

3/9/2009 11:21:12 PM

once again, weird, supernatural, crazy shit doesnt excuse poor writing/plot points. I am happy for you that neat explosions and guns are enough to satisfy you, but its not enough for me.




I dont care if they have George Burns shooting flaming hammers out of his ass, as long as they are consistent and logical within their own defined world

[Edited on March 9, 2009 at 11:52 PM. Reason : d]

3/9/2009 11:48:03 PM

^^ Yes. The novel isn't tame by any means. 95% of the shit that goes on in the movie took place in the novel, they just took it a little further.

3/10/2009 12:35:48 AM

^^

3/10/2009 12:53:16 AM

Here is the original version of when Dr. Manhattan leaves earth for the final time (some of the dialogue is the same, but who each person is speaking to is different). I wish it had been left as it was written because it gives Adrian a deeper character and shows doubt within himself if he did the right thing. This is right after Jon vaporizes Rorschach:

Adrian: Hello, Jon. I was hoping we'd have the chance to talk. I know people think me callous, but I've made myself feel every death. By day I imagine endless faces. By night...well, I dream, about swimming towards a hideous...no, nevermind. It isn't significant. What's significant is that I know. I know I've struggled against the backs of murdered innocents to save humanity...but someone had to take the weight of that awful, necessary crime. I'd hoped you'd understand, unlike Rorschach.

Jon: You needn't consider Rorschach, I strongly doubt he'll reach civilization...but yes, I understand, without condoning or condemning. Human affairs cannot be my concern. I'm leaving this galaxy for one less complicated.

Adrian: But you'd regained interest in human life...

Jon: Yes, I have. Perhaps I'll create some. Goodbye Adrian.

Adrian: Jon, wait, before you leave...I did the right thing didn't I? It all worked out in the end.

Jon: In the end? Nothing ends, Adrian. Nothing ever ends.

Adrian: Jon? What do you mean by... {Jon vanishes, Adrian stands alone}

3/10/2009 3:14:22 AM

I don't recall them mentioning it the movie, but why is it that the Comedian kills Kennedy?

3/10/2009 9:51:09 AM

to further vietnam/get nixon elected

3/10/2009 10:02:28 AM

That wasn't in the comic, right?

3/10/2009 4:22:48 PM

fuck it i'm just going to download this shit, its not worth my 7$ to watch some x-men wannabe shit

3/10/2009 4:24:37 PM

you have no idea what you're talking about. it's nothing like xmen, except that you'll find them both in the same section at the book store.

3/10/2009 4:29:33 PM

I didnt quite get why the comedian had to die... was he in on it with Adrian but started to crack? (they mentioned something like that), or did he somehow find out?

3/10/2009 4:32:35 PM

^He figured out Adrian's plan (he was not in on it) and wanted to prevent it I think.

[Edited on March 10, 2009 at 4:51 PM. Reason : Clarification]

3/10/2009 4:50:48 PM

Outside of the opening title sequence, which I thought was excellent, the rest of the movie was pretty mediocre. Overdone fights, crap characters, and too much blue dong. There were some interesting elements to the story, the overall theme was good, but throughout the whole movie all I could think was "I really just don't give a crap about anything that's happening here". Seems like it was more fan service to people who read the comic book than anything else.

3/10/2009 5:02:39 PM

^^ how did he figure it out? he seems like the last person that could figure something that big out

3/10/2009 5:10:26 PM

Blake had been working for the government for years and was keeping tabs on all of the other costumed adventurers. He flew over the island where the "squid" was being created in the book, but since the squid doesn't exist in the movie that explanation doesn't work. I don't remember them spelling out exactly how he found out in the movie. I guess I just sort of filled in the blank in my head since I knew the story.

3/10/2009 5:29:44 PM

Yeah, I don't understand how he could fly over the island and see that they were working on a bomb with Jon's energy signature to it. The squid, however, would be totally visible.

3/10/2009 5:33:43 PM

Well the point is that there was no mention of how he uncovered the plan in the movie. It's fair to assume that he learned of it through his work with the government, but exactly how he learned of it was not covered in the film.

3/10/2009 5:37:45 PM

What's the squid?

Why was Adrian watching all the tv's?

3/10/2009 6:45:44 PM

In the original ending, Veidt had teleported a squid-like creature into New York City. The creature was a genetically-engineered creation that contained the brain of some recently deceased psychic. The teleportation that Veidt used results in the death of the target upon destination. Upon its death, it releases some kind of psychic-based attack that kills everybody in New York. Those who are not killed are implanted with the knowledge that had been crammed into the squid's brain.

During it's construction, Veidt had invited all of the world's premier artists and the like to conceive of an inter-dimensional alien species; culture, reasons for wanting to attack earth, etc. This information was then crammed inside of the squid's brain, and dispersed when the squid died. The end result was that the rest of the planet came to believe that the squid really was an alien that had been sent to destroy the earth. This deception would then cause the nations of the world to set aside their differences and unite against a common enemy.

As for watching all of the tv's, that is simply suppose to demonstrate Veidt's superior intellect by showing him paying attention to multiple channels at the same time. This was explained and shown in the graphic novel.

[Edited on March 10, 2009 at 7:02 PM. Reason : blah]

3/10/2009 7:01:47 PM

^That squid thing is really out there. I'm glad they changed it, although its certainly a much different ending considering the foe that the world unites against.

3/10/2009 7:14:03 PM

Quote :

"He figured out Adrian's plan (he was not in on it) and wanted to prevent it I think."

He didn't want to prevent it. He knew it had to be done, but he did have an inner conflict about it. Hence the conversation he had with Moloch a week before his murder.

3/10/2009 7:28:33 PM

^IIRC when he broke down to Moloch it was because he knew the plan would work, and in the new world there would be no place for a man like him

Quote :

"As for watching all of the tv's, that is simply suppose to demonstrate Veidt's superior intellect by showing him paying attention to multiple channels at the same time. This was explained and shown in the graphic novel."

he says something about being able to tell the future by paying attention to them all

3/10/2009 7:39:32 PM

Why is it that the woman always stands there beating the fire with a jacket while the man simply gets the extinguisher?

3/11/2009 12:12:37 PM

She doesn't know where the extinguisher is.

3/11/2009 12:59:12 PM

Thought it was a great movie, but damn the music selection throughout kind of irked me. But it did not deter me from the movie to much.

Will be in my collection.


III

3/11/2009 1:34:10 PM

I really liked the music. Made it seem less comic bookish and more like a sample of popular, but not necessarily always the best, songs of each era... reminded me of Forest Gump.

3/11/2009 1:48:14 PM

I guess it was ok but I do not see how this story rates as the best graphic novel ever. Any X-men storyline would blow it out of the water. They are all humans trying to be superheroes except Manhattan who can do whatever he fucking wants and apparently Ozymandas (sp) can catch bullets and leap 10 ft. Its pretty gay if you ask me.

3/11/2009 7:16:33 PM

^ Go die in a fire. Marvel wishes they write as good and detailed characters as are in Watchmen. Characters, not just faces with powers. Most comic books gloss over the psychological impact of being a hero.

I mean, there has to be something really wrong with you to think you can put on a costume and solve all the world's problems, powers or not. Manhattan's detachment from society, Nite Owl's clinging to blind idealism, and The Comedian's eventual degeneration into sociopathy strike me as being logical results from that choice. Or, you just start out nuts like Roscharch, and you don't really get effected that much. The only "normal" person in the bunch is Laurie, who'd been raised with the expectations that she'd eventually take up her mother's mantle, so she didn't change when she became Silk Spectre, like the other characters did. But, even she is detached, with no friends who don't know that she's a hero.

It's a much more in-depth psychological play than anything Marvel puts out, because they have to maintain continuity, and keep the same characters in perpetuity. None of their characters can ever truly develop, or the story might have to end some time, and there goes the cash cow.

3/11/2009 8:01:02 PM

Who cares its fucking stupid. If Dr. Manhattan is so fucking smart he could destroy the cancer cells in his old gf'd body. He could destroy all the nukes before they are ever launched. He would know what Oxymandas is going to do with the things he is creating. Apparently he didn't even realize he was building bombs instead of alternative energy. The costumes look stupid and the whole storyline is mediocre.

3/11/2009 8:06:37 PM

yeah because dudes shooting lasers out of their fucking eyes makes more sense.

3/11/2009 8:13:46 PM

^^^someone took the troll bait with the quickness

[Edited on March 11, 2009 at 8:19 PM. Reason : ^]

3/11/2009 8:18:49 PM

How can a comic with such crappy art be so popular and very little action. If you're so interested in story go read a novel. I read comics for action and story that's why the Messiah War going on right now with X-men owns your watchmen shit.

3/11/2009 8:26:20 PM

Wow lets spontaneously combust someone, fuck Dr. Manhattan can't you come up with something a little more creative? Why are you running after Ozymandias like a fucking n00b, I thought you were a god. What a fucking idiot, quit walking around naked when you are the size of a toddler you small cocked d-bag. Wow lets make a stupid crosshair on the forehead, whats the symbology there? Oh so Rorschach became Rorschach when he butchered a child molester? How about biting some dudes face as a kid you fucking psycho. Manhattan can make oxygen from nowhere on mars why can't he fucking stop a few nukes. You're telling me he can't destroy a few million cancerious cells in a human body, what is he not that good yet? Fuck your stupid comic go suck Manhattans blue cock you fucking fanboy bitch.

3/11/2009 8:46:49 PM

Finally saw it. I was thoroughly entertained but a little disappointed. Rorschach looked and sounded perfect. His journal entries gave me chills. They reproduced those so faithfully, yet truncated his critical speech to the psychologist. Instead of encapsulating nihilism, he recounted a mere loss of faith that hardly explained the mask and its significance. He didn't say anything about the world's lack of meaning allowing him to embrace his subjective morality. Without that angle, Rorschach's just another badass vigilante. The entire scene with the psychologist felt rushed. I hope they expand on it in the DVD, including more of the philosophy.

Rorshach's death scene bothered me as well. Why the hell did he remove the mask? That's his face. He wanted it back so desperately, but pulls it off for Jon? What's going on? Why did he beg for oblivion? That's a major departure from his stoic demise in the comic. I have mixed feelings about how called Jon out for not caring about humanity earlier. Should Rorshach care? In the beginning of the movie, he seems pleased at the thought of societal collapse. He won't save them. Is the movie trying to suggest that he longed for Doctor Manhattan to truly play God?

I echo complaints about the violent action scenes. Laurie should not be stabbing random thugs through the neck. As always thought of her and Dan as traditional heroes, punching people out but not killing. In the movie, what separates them from Rorschach? He didn't used to kill criminals; they butcher muggers. I don't get it. I also wished they'd showed how Rorschach's interrogation techniques fail as often as they succeed. Without the balancing scene, the movie conveys popular notions about torture magically working. Particularly in the current political climate, that's unfortunate. And it's another piece missing from Rorschach character.

Jon was breathtaking. I'm glad the kept the nudity. I didn't find it remotely distracting. I liked ditching the giant squid and instead having humanity unite against him. However, I thought Dan getting to beat up Adrian was too pleasant. The ending's emotional weight comes from the infuriating acceptance of immorality. Acting on that rage dilutes the impact. No, you can't stop the evil mastermind from saving the world. You can't do anything about it. You have to compromise. He wins, at least for now. As Jon says, nothing ever ends.

3/11/2009 8:49:20 PM

I can't remember exactly what movie it was...

But http://GroundBeef proved that he actually somewhat mentally retarded in the discussion thread. I'm too lazy to look it up, but it was like arguing with an 8-year old.

3/11/2009 8:53:16 PM

I'm smarter than you d-bag.

3/11/2009 8:59:17 PM

How come no one tried to recreate Manhattans creation in that experiment? Plot hole shit.

3/11/2009 9:01:00 PM

so hey, is there a picture of billy crudup and his digitally enhanced penis in this thread???

3/11/2009 9:18:33 PM

Quote :

"It's a much more in-depth psychological play than anything Marvel puts out, because they have to maintain continuity, and keep the same characters in perpetuity."

I'm not sure that you mean "continuity" so much as you mean "status quo." How many times has a Marvel character been killed off, and a huge deal was made out of it, only for that character to be resurrected through magic or technobabble, or they just said the death was faked? It's not about maintaining consistency within an established universe's history, it's about making sure that there aren't any permanent consequences because most writers today are afraid that changing something will cause their subscribers to stop liking the series.

3/11/2009 9:19:07 PM

^ True. That's a much better way of putting it than I did. How can it be a real story if nothing ever changes?

3/11/2009 9:27:09 PM

GoldenViper, you called it out right - it is the only time that Rorshach gets emotional throughout the story. The reason was that Rorshach understands the world in black in white. Murder is wrong and saving the world is right - he cannot understand murdering to save the world. The reason he can kill criminals is because to him he is not commiting murder but providing justice. It is interesting to compare this to his first journal entry (that we see) since by not accepting what Veidt did is in essense he was saying "no" to saving the world - which is what he said he'd do in the journal.

Also, Rorshach's heroes are his absent father and President Truman. Truman effectively did what Veidt did by dropping the A-bombs on Japan (unless that didn't happen in that universe) - so you'd expect him to laud that effort, but he doesn't. It could be showing further that he doesn't know his heroes - which is true since he doesn't know his father.

As far as taking off his mask - I think that was a movie device since we could not see him crying through his mask. In the graphic novel you see his face but they don't show whether or not he took off his "face."

Rorshach is as detached from his world as Manhatten - he just didn't have the ability to leave.

3/11/2009 9:40:49 PM

Quote :

"Rorshach's death scene bothered me as well. Why the hell did he remove the mask? That's his face. He wanted it back so desperately, but pulls it off for Jon? What's going on? Why did he beg for oblivion? That's a major departure from his stoic demise in the comic."

Might want to go pick up the comic again. That was exactly how it went down in the book.

3/12/2009 12:58:13 AM

^ Yeah, I remembered wrong. Still confuses me. Don't know why I didn't catch it in the comic. But they did add lines, having Walter wish Jon had cared about humanity earlier.

Quote :

"Truman effectively did what Veidt did by dropping the A-bombs on Japan (unless that didn't happen in that universe) - so you'd expect him to laud that effort, but he doesn't. It could be showing further that he doesn't know his heroes - which is true since he doesn't know his father."

In the comic, Walter wrote a letter/essay supporting Truman dropping at the atomic bombs. However, I don't think it's quite the same as the giant squid or Manhattan bombs. Veidt killed his own people and lied about it. Truman killed enemy civilians as part of a declared war.

3/12/2009 9:51:04 AM