this is brutal.

I passed up Rasheed over 7.5 pts+rebs because I was worried Doc might bench him after he missed his first bad shot. Instead he dominated.

I passed up Mo Williams under 15.5 points because it just looked too suspiciously easy. Instead it was just easy.

I passed up Lebron under 40.5 pts+rebs because he's been brutalizing people with easy buckets and putting up big rebounds.

I totally misread this game, no doubt, but my Cleveland in 7, 6:1 odds bet now looks ridiculously sick. I have to stop being such a doucher and just put 3 months worth of pay on my hunches.

5/3/2010 10:51:09 PM

Quote :

"lebron is clearly not a top 5 player"

lol at your stupid ass claiming lebron isn't a top 5 player

just like i lol at rally claiming kobe isn't a top 5 player

are yall fools watching the same NBA me and the rest of the world are?

5/3/2010 11:22:23 PM

steve freaking nash...17 in the 1st

5/3/2010 11:25:40 PM

^^wow I was clearly mocking rally

5/3/2010 11:33:50 PM

well ok, sorry, sometimes its tough to tell

5/3/2010 11:36:25 PM

Maybe I'm missing something.

On an "off" game by Lebron he put up 24 pts, 7 rebs, 4 ast, 3 stl, and 2 blk on 7-15 FG.

Thats the kind of game Kobe can only dream of and it's considered an "off" game for Lebron.

Let me know when Lebron starts taking entire games off beause he relies on other stars like Bynum, Gasol, and Odom.

Remember when Kobe tried to lead a team to the title? I'll fill you in, they werent able to advance past the first round for three consecutive years which happened to coincide with his prime.

Kinda weird isnt it?

5/3/2010 11:42:39 PM

Eh, Lebron is obviously better at this point. Anyone with a brain can see that.

But come on... Kobe had fucking Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic playing 30+ minutes a game on that team. Jesus himself couldn't carry that team to a legit playoff run.

5/3/2010 11:45:43 PM

Where have you been these past few playoffs (sans last year.. he had an off year, I'll give you that)? Vujacic has been one of the Lakers' most clutch 3 point shooters. To say that he actually acts as a burden is ridiculous. In the past 4 playoffs, he averaged 16 min/game with a 3 point percentage of 38.3%. That's definitely not too bad for a bench player... he's definitely not Leandro Barbosa, but he's a good weapon when they need him.

5/3/2010 11:57:34 PM

Quote :

"Jesus himself couldn't carry that team to a legit playoff run."

Yet somehow Lebron did more with less as a ~23 year old.


I'm not making the Lebron = jesus argument.


Again, Kobe is the 3rd best SG in NBA history, he just isn't in the same breath as an NBA legend like Lebron...


C'mon stop reading your Jimmy Dean sausage cards and start evaluating the sport for what it is..

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 12:01 AM. Reason : a]

5/4/2010 12:00:30 AM

^^ Did you see where I said he was playing 30 minutes a game when the team had Kobe/Odom and no one else? He's fine in limited bench duty but when he is playing starter minutes he isn't exactly a premium player.

Plus lets not make out like he is an outstanding shooter. He's a career 37% three point shooter and not much better overall from the field.

^ I'm not a Kobe ball-licker like some people, but I just can't hold those teams not advancing against him. Sure Lebron made that finals before being steamrolled by the Spurs (and really the Top 6 teams in the West that year probably beat the Cavs in 5 or less), but that Eastern Conference was just pitiful.

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 12:03 AM. Reason : x]

5/4/2010 12:02:12 AM

^ thats not true. Detroit was a HEAVY favorite in the East that year and to say they were pitiful after the way they throttled the Lakers (when Kobe was still the 2nd banana) is disingenuous.

The West is weak this year so Kobe might get to the Finals without being tested but its hard to imagine him really leading a team to a championship the way Jordan did throughout his career.

Kobe in his prime never reached the level of a Wade, Mcgrady, etc.

He's had some longevity and he's in the argument with guys like Ginobili for scoring a lot on a few title teams, but let's not pretend he ranks amongst the true greats like Magic, MJ, Bird, Shaq, etc.

Have some integrity and admit that after 14 seasons he is what he is... a great but not true legendary basketball player.

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 12:36 AM. Reason : he was well marketed though ]

5/4/2010 12:34:30 AM

rubbish to say kobes not a great player. rubbish to say tmac was better. rubbish to say clyde was better. rubbish to say the west is weak when just a few nights ago many thought dallas or denver would win it all. OK city would be the 4th best team in the east by far. The west is strong.

5/4/2010 12:37:27 AM

Quote :

"NASH IS BEAST"

5/4/2010 12:46:03 AM

Quote :

"But come on... Kobe had fucking Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Sasha Vujacic playing 30+ minutes a game on that team. Jesus himself couldn't carry that team to a legit playoff run. "

yeah but that team lebron took to the finals was terrible too

5/4/2010 2:23:42 AM

Quote :

"thats not true. Detroit was a HEAVY favorite in the East that year and to say they were pitiful after the way they throttled the Lakers (when Kobe was still the 2nd banana) is disingenuous."

Come on. Detroit was the ONLY team worth a damn. To get to the ECF, they beat two 41-41 teams that wouldn't have even been in the playoffs in the West.

Do you really think that Lebron would have led that team to the finals playing against the likes of the Suns or Spurs in the first round? The Cavs would have been a SIX seed in the West, playing the Spurs in the first round!

Again, I'm not arguing on behalf of Kobe over Lebron. I agree with you. Kobe is a HOF player while Lebron is on his way to becoming a LEGEND of the game... but I really think you are being a bit unfair to Kobe here.

(of course I realize there are all sorts of variables and the Cavs playing a Western Conference schedule would probably result in even fewer reg season wins)

5/4/2010 9:33:42 AM

Just came in here to comment on how bad ass Steve Nash was last night. That was awesome.

5/4/2010 10:11:49 AM

Nash had a very un-Nash-like game. It's filthy how he can explode like that every game, but he decides to pass the ball and settle with 15-20 points/game.

5/4/2010 3:54:44 PM

He couldn't do that every game. He's one of the best shooters in league history, and that YMCA lay up is crude but effective. But he only scores 30 points when the opposition is overly focused on shutting down Amare and the spot up shooters like Dudley, Richardson, etc. (of course last night, the Spurs couldn't stop anyone). He doesn't have the Lebron or Durant ability to get buckets no matter the defense.

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 4:06 PM. Reason : x]

5/4/2010 4:05:45 PM

Quote :

"OK city would be the 4th best team in the east by far."

I don't know if this is a troll attempt or not, but if so.... I don't think OKC would win in a best of 7 against Boston, and I know they wouldn't dominate them.

5/4/2010 4:06:11 PM

Quote :

"Kobe in his prime never reached the level of a Wade, Mcgrady, etc."

hahaha lol at T-Mac ever being better than Kobe

5/4/2010 4:24:16 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4VL96dKdcg&feature=related

at that moment McGrady was as good as anyone ever

5/4/2010 4:36:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhCy8q2p5Jw

at that moment Rodney Rogers was as good as anyone ever

5/4/2010 4:39:26 PM

Quote :

"13 points in 35 seconds"

Reggie Miller scored 8 points in 8 seconds...I'd say thats more impressive

^oh shit thats even better...9 in 9

5/4/2010 4:50:55 PM

Reggie Miller's looking good

5/4/2010 4:51:56 PM

Kobe scored 81 points in 2880 seconds

Quote :

"He doesn't have the Lebron or Durant ability to get buckets no matter the defense."

unless of course the defense is Ron Artest, in which case Durant shoots 35% from the field and 28% from the arc

5/4/2010 4:55:03 PM

Quote :

" I don't know if this is a troll attempt or not, but if so.... I don't think OKC would win in a best of 7 against Boston, and I know they wouldn't dominate them."

Atlanta is the 5th best team in the east. you people that think the best teams go in order of their regular season record and the best players go in order of their regular season stats are a joke. I applaud your attentiveness but the playoffs is a different beast.

5/4/2010 7:37:16 PM

Atlanta is the 4th best team in the East is what you meant to say I guess. You can make the argument they are behind Boston and I may even agree with you. But #5 what a misstep on your part.

Only thing i took tonight was over 15.5 three pointers in the magic game. havent had time to look at west props yet.

Big game for my Magic tonight. They are going off at 3:1 to win the champ after the latest Cleveland debacle... nice

5/4/2010 8:05:57 PM

MVP race

http://www.wagesofwins.com/MVP2010.html

5/4/2010 8:26:26 PM

After seeing Orlando beating Atlanta so bad, and seeing Howard with at least 5 blocks already, I don't feel as bad about the Bobcats losing

Although Howard's complete lack of any offense aside from dunking still obviously keeps him out of the top 5 players in the game...thats like saying Nash is a top 5 and ignoring his complete lack of defense

Quote :

"you people that think the best teams go in order of their regular season record and the best players go in order of their regular season stats are a joke"

agree...thats like saying Felton is a better PG than Nelson LAWLZ

5/4/2010 9:03:57 PM

Howard is top 3 in the game

Shaq, Wilt and Bill Russell never had jumpshots

Shit on them, too

I dare you

5/4/2010 9:06:24 PM

they had hook shots and 6' jumpers...Howard doesn't even have those

when Howard scores 100 points in a game or averages 50 points in a season or wins 10 titles, then you can compare an unpolished defensive specialist with some of the best players in basketball history

omg Jordan never shot 50% from behind the arc and 90% from the line, Nash is better!

Quote :

"Howard is top 3 in the game"

Kobe, Lebron and D-Wade, among others, disagree

5/4/2010 9:10:10 PM

To say that Kobe is better than Howard disqualifies you from any legitimate discussion.

It's just not even debateable.


Howard just shit all over the Hawks who won 53 games this year.


At this point in his career Kobe is almost dead even with Roy and Ginobili (actually he's never been MUCH better than Ginobili) and he's pretty far behind Dwyane Wade.

Let's be serious about things for a minute.

5/4/2010 9:15:54 PM

Howard is a top 3 player cause he is big and strong and can dunk!

You've already been disqualified from legitimate discussion countless times, by saying things such as Kobe isn't a top 10 player, and T-Mac was better than Kobe, and Felton is better than Nelson...I doubt anybody on this website would agree with your view on either of those three topics

except amac but he just loves him some Tracy

You seem like more of a statistician than a basketball fan

But I bet you could put together a hell of a fantasy basketball team!

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 9:21 PM. Reason : until you get rid of your deep rooted hatred of Kobe, you'll never be objective]


[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 9:23 PM. Reason : I've hated Kobe since he dissed the Hornets...but I'm not too dumb to recognize his talent]

5/4/2010 9:16:58 PM

I will say that once Howard does develop a decent low post offensive game, he will be scary good...but he hasn't done that yet...same reason you can't put Lebron on a pedestal yet until he gets a consistent jump shot and wins a title

Both of them have all the talent in the world, but still have a lot of maturation to bring to their games

I don't know why you can't see that

5/4/2010 9:27:06 PM

Ginobili vs Kobe is an interesting argument, and one I'd like to get into further when I have more time. Manu has only played around 28 minutes per game throughout his career...on a per minute bonus, he's incredibly close to Bryant. However, since he only plays about 75% of the time Bryant does, even if they were statistically equal, he would only be 75% as valuable, which is still damn good.

5/4/2010 9:28:30 PM

McGrady in his prime was better than Kobe in his prime, that's obvious to even the most casual NBA observer so I don't get your point. Kobe has been remarkably consistent over his career but he's never had a signature season where he dominated.

Think about if you were a foreign exchange student who didn't know any history of the sport. If you saw this season you'd immediately identify Lebron and Howard as the two stars of the league. If you happened to catch a few Lakers games you'd notice they were pretty damn good across the board and would probably first notice Pau Gasol because he's so terrific on both ends. Kobe might catch your eye as a good role player or scorer but obviously you wouldn't change your facebook status just because you saw him make a layup in person...

Felton had a tremendous season so yes this season he was better than Nelson who was pretty bad for the most part.

Nelson was the better player last season before his injury, no argument there.


P.S. using dunks against a player is a really poor argument. Last I checked dunks went in about 98% of the time while off balanced fade-aways were significantly less accurate. This isn't ice skating, you don't get points for degree of difficulty. Stop daydreaming and checking Kobe out all day and wake up to reality.

5/4/2010 9:29:18 PM

Anyone watching Atlanta getting massacred by Orlando?

5/4/2010 9:31:39 PM

Quote :

"Felton had a tremendous season so yes this season he was better than Nelson"

did you watch the playoffs? yeah you did

yet somehow instead of realizing what your eyes were seeing in the CHA/ORL series, where Nelson COMPLETELY abused and dominated Felton

you choose to base a better player on what they do in the regular season?

the regular season means precisely jack shit...its a way for over half of the league to make the playoffs

once you make the playoffs, the true players come to play...like Nelson...like Kobe dropping 13 in the 4th quarter...like Artest completely shutting down Durant

all your regular season efficiency stats simply don't hold as much weight as what players do in the playoffs

which is another reason your T-Mac > Kobe argument is completely retarded...what has T-Mac ever done in the post season? Nothing.

Quote :

"P.S. using dunks against a player is a really poor argument"

I'm simply pointing out Howard's current offensive limitations...he's pretty one dimensional offensively...catch, turn/spin, dunk...nothing wrong with that...but Shawn Kemp was never a top 3 player in the NBA either (although like I said, once Howard does finally develop a multi-dimensional low post offense, he will be a complete beast)

I already got you to admit earlier ITT that Kobe was indeed the most talented player on the Lakers...yet you still put "better regular season stat efficiency" ahead of "better player" when talking about....better player

Quote :

"Think about if you were a foreign exchange student who didn't know any history of the sport."

I don't think anybody is trying to argue with you that one player had a better regular season, this year, than another

I've simply been arguing that that doesn't dictate who the better player actually is

5/4/2010 9:32:36 PM

It's blindingly obvious to even the most retarded monkey that Shaun Livingston in his prime is far greater than Magic Johnson ever was.

5/4/2010 9:34:03 PM

we gotta calm down and GET BACK INTO OUR GAME

5/4/2010 9:36:10 PM

Let's just end all of this LeBron vs. Kobe bitching... ESPN's SportsNation poll: Which player would you rather have for the rest of the playoffs? Kobe Bryant - 34%; LeBron James - 66% (24,440 answered).

5/4/2010 9:40:08 PM

^why would they even put Kobe in that poll as one of the choices when he's not even a top 10 player???

I'm not going to try to convince people that Kobe is better than Lebron, although I think he is until Lebron wins a title...I just don't know how any basketball fans who watch basketball would argue that both of them aren't two of the most elite players in the whole league

5/4/2010 9:40:39 PM

At this point Kobe isn't better than Lebron.

Kobe is greater than Lebron though.

5/4/2010 9:43:05 PM

again I think you could argue either way on that one...they're both superstars...I think they're the top two players in the NBA...Lebron certainly had a better regular season than Kobe, some of that had to do with Kobe's injuries...but like I said earlier, having a great regular season doesn't mean anything once you get to the playoffs, and it doesn't mean you are a better player...it simply means you had a better regular season...by that rational Raymond Felton had a better regular season than Chris Paul...so what, Paul is better

but I will say that while Lebron will get you more boards and probably points throughout the game, I'll bet 95% of SportsNation voters would rather have Kobe taking the last shot with the game on the line

Quote :

"MVP race http://www.wagesofwins.com/MVP2010.html"

I see Amare, but no Nene...whats up with that? I thought Nene was clearly better?

Here's a serious question for you rally...is Kobe one of the top 5 or 10 most talented players in the NBA? Also, when you countlessly say "X is a better player than Y", are you going off talent, ie who is the better player...or are you for some reason equating "2010 regular season efficiency" to "the best basketball player"

Cause that is great for MVP voting, which should be based on the individual season...but its not the best metric for arguing who the best players are

5/4/2010 9:44:34 PM

44-87

who let the girl scouts into the second round of the nba playoffs?

5/4/2010 9:54:59 PM

Anyone with eyes and at least a partially functional brain can see that Chris "Birdman" Anderson is far superior to Amare in all facets of basketball AND LIFE

5/4/2010 9:59:14 PM

damn this game is just a straight up ass whipping...will be interesting to see how Atlanta comes out in Game 2, not that they need to win it, but they need to at least show up

5/4/2010 10:04:26 PM

I dont know why you are taking on this weird "regular season vs postseason" argument as if the two are SIGNIFICANTLY different.

There has never been any statistcial proof that certain players are significantly better in the postseason than the regular season.

Of course if you take a tiny statistical sample (say 4-6 games) there will be some players who performed better and some players who performed worse than they did in the regular season.


San Antonio isn't significantly better in the postseason because they weren't tryinf during the year. They are a little sharper, but mostly they are better because their star players Ginobili and Duncan are playing more minutes.

Same thing with Boston of course they will be better when Garnett is on the floor rather than Glen Davis.


It's just ridiculous after Dwight Howard puts up a truly dominant performance like tonight to pretend that Kobe (who has been average thus far in the playoffs) is a better player than him.

The Lakers are an elite team because they have three terrific big men Gasol/Bynum/Odom. Kobe is a good player, but most of the teams they are squaring off against have a perimeter guy that is just as efficient offensively. The real mismatch is the Lakers frontline. That is what other teams are concerned about. Kobe is an afterthought almost when it comes to gameplans...

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 10:06 PM. Reason : if i was nice id let you off the hook, but i prefer intellectual honesty...]

5/4/2010 10:05:23 PM

Quote :

"There has never been any statistcial proof that certain players are significantly better in the postseason than the regular season."

Quote :

"You seem like more of a statistician than a basketball fan"

Do you really think Kobe's poor (relative to him) stats in the 2nd half of the regular season are completely a result of him getting old? Cause elite players don't drop off 15% from their FG% over the course of a season from getting old

They do it when they have finger and ankle injuries, and can't grip the ball as comfortably or elevate properly for jumpers or drives...yet somehow they drain 13 points in the 4th quarter of a playoff game because the playoffs are a completely different intensity level than the regular season...ask any former NBA player with playoff experience...I've heard former players on TV and radio say that, and I've asked other former players in person...its a completely different game, plain and simple

Did Dave Berri ever play in the playoffs? No, he was too busy sitting in a computer lab trying to ignore the intangibles of the game of basketball.

When you say Gasol is better than Kobe, I bite my tongue since they're both past their primes...but when you say Odom is better than Kobe I have to assume you're either trolling are a complete dumbass...yet I think the answer is really a third option...you have absolutely no comprehension of basketball and instead put 100% of your faith into certain statistics, even when some of them completely go against all rationale and logic

Quote :

"Dwight Howard: That's why he (Kobe Bryant) is the best"

straight from the horse's mouth

[Edited on May 4, 2010 at 10:17 PM. Reason : .]

5/4/2010 10:08:41 PM

I certainly agree that Kobe's finger cause him to have a HUGE dropoff this year.

He went from being a pretty good player to being an above average shooting guard on a team that relies on their size to win games.

According to reports his finger is healed now from the fracture and he's still struggling in the playoffs to score.

It took a near riot to get him to stop taking jumpers that he can't hit and he can't get to the free throw line anymore. He's a 31 year old man. I still love watching him play because he has flair and he gives a good effort to overcome his physical limitations.

That doesn't mean he'll ever be the player that Lebron and Howard will. He simply can't, he's on the downside of his career and Lebron and Howard are right in their primes. There is no way he can impact a basketball game the way they can, period.

5/4/2010 10:17:10 PM