Quote :

"Your point is well made; however, I do wonder whether this sort of emotional attachment to landmarks is ultimately a good thing for society. Chris Matthews made this point on his show last week. He used the Middle East as an example, where it's hard to argue that the presence of "holy sites" and "hold land" has had an overall positive impact on the region. So, while its perfectly understandable that New Yorkers would be emotional about the World Trade Center, I think its probably in the best interest of the city (and the country) to transcend the temptation to fetishize city blocks. So I can't buy that argument. My problem is that I don't think its a particularly great thing to construct a mosque anywhere, let alone one to be run by an imam who blames the U.S. for 9/11, has an ambiguous stance on Hamas, and whose sources of funding are rather opaque."

I think that is a fair point. "Fetishizing" land has certainly caused more harm and good over the course of human history.

8/7/2010 8:35:37 PM

Quote :

"imagine building an American military base at ground zero of Hiroshima or Nagasaki. that would be inappropriate. no matter how benign relations are now between the countries, no matter how 'anti-atomic' the base is."

The key difference here is that the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were carried out by the monolithic entity that is the United States Military.

You can't hope to hold accountable one quarter of the world's population for the evil actions of 19 evil men. Are all Christians to answer for the KKK? The Westboro Baptist church? What is the proper penance to be paid by the 2.1 billion Christians worldwide for the murder of George Tiller? What is the minimum distance a church can exist from the Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta where Eric Rudolph attacked 113 people? If your answer is more than three blocks, I believe a strongly worded letter is in order to the insensitive assholes at the Lindsey Street Baptist Church a mere five minute walk away.

8/8/2010 8:23:58 AM

Quote :

"Across Nation, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition While a high-profile battle rages over a mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, heated confrontations have also broken out in communities across the country where mosques are proposed for far less hallowed locations. In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting. In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby. In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?_r=1&hp


It turns out that Tea Partiers are against mosques in general. That couldn't be though-- I've been told time and again that these people aren't bigots.

8/8/2010 8:47:28 AM

Wait what was that you were just saying about how the actions of a few don't represent the entire group?

8/8/2010 9:41:53 AM

Quote :

"The key difference here is that the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were carried out by the monolithic entity that is the United States Military. You can't hope to hold accountable one quarter of the world's population for the evil actions of 19 evil men. Are all Christians to answer for the KKK? The Westboro Baptist church? What is the proper penance to be paid by the 2.1 billion Christians worldwide for the murder of George Tiller? What is the minimum distance a church can exist from the Centennial Olympic Park in Atlanta where Eric Rudolph attacked 113 people? If your answer is more than three blocks, I believe a strongly worded letter is in order to the insensitive assholes at the Lindsey Street Baptist Church a mere five minute walk away."

who is holding them accountable? I said they will be forever linked....this is something moderate Muslims are going to have to deal with for a long time. its not fair, but its reality.

8/8/2010 11:22:41 AM

Quote :

"Wait what was that you were just saying about how the actions of a few don't represent the entire group"

well played!

8/8/2010 11:23:07 AM

^ so people against mosques are bigots?

8/8/2010 11:28:09 AM

Quote :

"who is holding them accountable? I said they will be forever linked....this is something moderate Muslims are going to have to deal with for a long time. its not fair, but its reality."

this is true. and it isn't fair. but shouldn't it be our responsibility to denounce this link and encourage tolerance? isn't that what this all boils down to? not allowing our tensions and emotions to override what we know to be correct?

8/8/2010 6:07:58 PM

^

"they came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

8/8/2010 6:27:16 PM

I'd be alright with the first two

8/8/2010 10:30:11 PM

Quote :

"Wait what was that you were just saying about how the actions of a few don't represent the entire group?"

I think I'm safe in assuming all mosque-haters hate mosques.

I'm just surprised (or not) to see that they don't just hate this mosque in particular.

8/8/2010 11:14:25 PM

So who here has Muslims in their family/friends?

I do. I'm just wondering how many of you actually know anything real about Islam/Muslims in America.

8/8/2010 11:23:07 PM

I saw a hot muslim MILF at bojangles the other day...

but none in my family/friends that I know of.

But here is an interesting "30 Days" episode:
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/videos/30-days-muslim-in-america.html

About a Christian living as a Muslim in America.

[Edited on August 8, 2010 at 11:40 PM. Reason : ]

8/8/2010 11:38:12 PM

^^^ Wait what was that you were just saying about how the actions of a few don't represent the entire group?

8/9/2010 10:15:48 AM

Not ALL Tea-Partiers are bigots but the ones turning out to protest Mosques are.

LOL

You stupid motherfucking trolls on this site can waste each others' time over the funniest shit

8/9/2010 10:23:58 AM

likewise, not all muslims are right wing extremists, but those ones who have allied themselves with the muslim brotherhood, refuse to condemn Hamas, and advocate for the acceptance of Sharia law within this country are.

LOL

8/9/2010 10:34:44 AM

I've about had it with you anti-American motherfuckers spreading your poisonous ideology in this country.

America's supposed to be about freedom and acceptance of people from all backgrounds. Really getting tired of this Tea Party Fake America bullshit.

8/9/2010 12:35:51 PM

Quote :

"So who here has Muslims in their family/friends?"

I do. my business partner is a Muslim from Pakistan. you should hear him rail on this proposed mosque. you would certainly call him a bigot/racist/hack, etc...

Quote :

"this is true. and it isn't fair. but shouldn't it be our responsibility to denounce this link and encourage tolerance? isn't that what this all boils down to? not allowing our tensions and emotions to override what we know to be correct?"

I agree, and this is why I say, AGAIN, they should be allowed to build.

Quote :

"Not ALL Tea-Partiers are bigots but the ones turning out to protest Mosques are. "

I think it is certainly safe to call someone a 'bigot' protesting all mosques. however, just because someone doesnt like this particular mosque or the circumstances around it doesnt qualify. by doing that, you are oversimplifying the situation.

8/9/2010 1:08:17 PM

Quote :

"I do. I'm just wondering how many of you actually know anything real about Islam/Muslims in America."

I know they subscribe to a false belief system that can lead to destructive behavior. Of course, like Christianity, almost every believer makes their own version of the religion that can be reconciled with their own perception of reality. Because of that, you will find that many Christians/Muslim live their life without religion ever having much of an effect on their actions. Others will spend their life degrading others because their respective holy book tells them to.

I think it's interesting that many of the people that support hate crime legislation are not against these mosques being built. After all, hate crime prescribes an additional punishment, not for the actual harm done to the person the crime was against, but the perceived harm done to the community or society as a whole. If a person of a certain race is targeted because of their race, it follows that they scared all the people of the same race that live in the same area, and the criminal should go to jail for a few more years because of that. Maybe people in New York will be scared by these mosques, and since it's okay to charge people with a crime because they scare (but do not harm) other people, this should be no different.

8/9/2010 1:14:37 PM

Quote :

"by doing that, you are oversimplifying the situation."

Oh okay let's add meaningless distinctions to your racist, weepy hand-wringing

Quote :

"I think it's interesting that many of the people that support hate crime legislation are not against these mosques being built. After all, hate crime prescribes an additional punishment, not for the actual harm done to the person the crime was against, but the perceived harm done to the community or society as a whole. If a person of a certain race is targeted because of their race, it follows that they scared all the people of the same race that live in the same area, and the criminal should go to jail for a few more years because of that. Maybe people in New York will be scared by these mosques, and since it's okay to charge people with a crime because they scare (but do not harm) other people, this should be no different."

LOL Building a mosque = a hate crime now

My hat's off to you

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 1:34 PM. Reason : .]

8/9/2010 1:32:33 PM

Has anyone in this thread actually stated that they wanted the GOVERNMENT to step in and stop this mosque from being built? I'm not saying no one is advocating this position, but the people I keep reading about it from are those who support the mosque.

It seems like the most active opponents of the mosque ITT are against the government blocking it.

Straw man anyone?

8/9/2010 1:35:34 PM

Quote :

"Oh okay let's add meaningless distinctions to your racist, weepy hand-wringing "

whatever you say, mcdouchenozzle.

8/9/2010 1:48:46 PM

Fake-ass Americans ^, ^^.

8/9/2010 3:47:41 PM

McDanger, understand where they are coming from.

They view extreme Islamism as a direct threat to American security. They believe they have evidence that links this new mosque to extreme Islamism. They are not being un-American in showing concern with what they perceive as a direct threat to American security.

I'm not saying I agree with them on these bounds, but in their minds, this is like Soviet spies making a club in downtown New York. Should we be tolerant of organizations and cultures that represent a direct threat to American security?

If Al-Qaeda wanted to setup a clubhouse in the USA somewhere, should we support them?

V, Well, shit, I don't really understand your position.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 4:07 PM. Reason : V]

8/9/2010 3:55:17 PM

I don't believe the mosque is a direct threat to america any more than any of the many other radicalized mosques are...

I just think the placement of it is particularly offensive.

I think we are still allowed to be offended by the actions of right-wing fundamentalists in this country, aren't we?


[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 4:00 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2010 3:59:19 PM

Quote :

"LOL Building a mosque = a hate crime now"

Learn to read.

8/9/2010 4:12:49 PM

Quote :

"I think we are still allowed to be offended by the actions of right-wing fundamentalists in this country, aren't we?"

Only if they're not brown.

8/9/2010 4:16:25 PM

Quote :

"this is like Soviet spies making a club in downtown New York."

I think they did that, it's called the UN

8/9/2010 4:32:27 PM

Quote :

"Should we be tolerant of organizations and cultures that represent a direct threat to American security?"

It literally REQUIRES racism to believe that "Islam" is an organization or culture that represents a direct threat to American security.

8/9/2010 4:36:14 PM

The liberals ITT have no answer to any of the actual arguments being used in opposition to this mosque, so they just make up anti-mosque arguments and shoot them down.

tacit admission of defeat?

Quote :

"Well, shit, I don't really understand your position."

I think I know why you're having a hard time grasping the anti-mosque position. See, you're coming from the perspective of "government is the answer to any problem." You see that we have a problem with the mosque, so you assume a priori that we therefore want government to do something about the mosque. That flies in the face of the first amendment and so you conclude that its a slam-dunk case in favor of supporting the mosque.

In actuality, I am simply offended by the mosque due to the fact that the Imam has allied himself with the muslim brotherhood, refuses to condemn hamas, and when it boils down to it, is a right-wing fundamentalist who is, in my opinion, clearly trying to antagonize the victims of 9/11.

I hope that it is not built due to non-governmental societal pressures. Either by shaming the Imam into moving it, or by boycotts of any companies that are employed in the construction.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 4:53 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2010 4:45:19 PM

There's really no argument here except "we can't tread on the sensibilities of hysterical morons"

8/9/2010 4:50:15 PM

America's new motto is apparently "Don't tread on my racist sensibilities"

Since when have Americans been scared pussies at literally every foreign shadow? Conservatives can be scared pussies if they feel like it, but I hope our country moves beyond this.

8/9/2010 4:51:20 PM

Well, you believe that this Imam is a moderate/liberal muslim.

I do not.

The evidence is on my side, but whatever.

8/9/2010 4:56:31 PM

Quote :

"It literally REQUIRES racism to believe that "Islam" is an organization or culture that represents a direct threat to American security."

Did I ever say Islam? When I say Islamism I'm referring to the movements that wish non-Muslims to die or be converted to Islam and the enforcement of Sharia law.

I think it could be argued quite well that extreme Islamism represents a direct threat to American security. The current status of several World Trade Center towers stand testament to that fact. Now, what level of linkage between this mosque and the Islamism that represents this threat is unclear.

Personally, I think even a mosque that practices moderate Islam is responsible for the extreme Islamists in that they propagate the idea that their religion is worth believing. Call me a racist if you want, but I hold moderate Christian churches culpable for the same. Would I support the government telling them they can't build there? Absolutely not. I just wish humanity would grow up enough to let go of the religious bullshit that breeds groups like those that wish harm on our country.

V, Reason 4: I'm opposed to it independent of anyone's sensitivity.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 5:14 PM. Reason : V]

8/9/2010 5:05:19 PM

Reason #1: The Conspiracy Theory

"They're radical extremists"

If you buy the "evidence" for this, then let me tell you how Bush was a puppet for the Saudi royal family, and how Obama is a Manchurian Candidate for left wing radicals. You see, the imams dad totally knew these guys who...

As for the Sharia thing-- saying that "the Constitution is compatible with Sharia" is a good thing. I already like him more than Pat Robertson, who apparently would like to change a couple things in the Constitution. As for an alternative civil court system-- who cares? It's been shown that the Jews already have it. Even rednecks have the People's Court, which is no different. It's called arbitration; it's already allowed.


Reason #2: Bigotry and/or Stupidity

"It's insensitive because they're Muslim and so were the terrorists"

It's only insensitive if you're too stupid to distinguish between the Unitarians of Islam and the Timothy McVeighs of Islam.


Reason #3: Political Correctness

"It's insensitive because people are offended"

Tough noogies.

8/9/2010 5:05:43 PM

Quote :

"In actuality, I am simply offended by the mosque due to the fact that the Imam has allied himself with the muslim brotherhood, refuses to condemn hamas, and when it boils down to it, is a right-wing fundamentalist who is, in my opinion, clearly trying to antagonize the victims of 9/11. "

You are a liar.

You and your brethren hated this mosque from the beginning because it's muslims, and you are now latching on to anything that justifies your hatred. At least DaBird was honest with himself from the beginning that this was an emotional reaction. You are either lying or deluding yourself by pretending your reasons for being against this mosque was based in special information that you had all along.

You hated the mosque from the beginning, and are rationalizing it however you can.

8/9/2010 5:39:51 PM

I guess you ignored the final most important point that I made, summarizing my opposition:

Quote :

"when it boils down to it, is a right-wing fundamentalist who is, in my opinion, clearly trying to antagonize the victims of 9/11."

That's not rationalization - that's just a simple straight up explanation of the final most important point that I made --- and it doesn't have anything to do with "special information" or whatever the fuck you're saying

I straight up told you motherfucker, "when it boils down to it... in my opinion..." what the fuck else do you want me to say

If you want to talk about facts, how about the fact that this Imam is poking a stick and you guys are just happy about it because conservatives are pissed off.

I've never seen liberals come to the defense of a right-wing fundamentalist with such vigor as you guys have latched onto this Imam. If he simply believed in Jesus instead of Allah you duplicitous motherfuckers would be denouncing him from the rooftops




[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 5:57 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2010 5:51:13 PM

Quote :

"If he simply believed in Jesus instead of Allah you duplicitous motherfuckers would be denouncing him from the rooftops"

Muhammad would probably have been a better comparison, but yes I would.

8/9/2010 6:13:24 PM

^^

Quote :

" Fake-ass American"

8/9/2010 6:28:58 PM

It seems like Solinari is saying that he's morally opposed to the building of this mosque, but doesn't think the government should intervene. See, that's a key difference between statists and non-statists. Statists on both sides of the political spectrum see something they don't like, and want the government to come in and stop it. Liberals see things like racial inequality and want the government to come in and give special rights or privileges to anyone that passes some arbitrary skin color test. Conservatives see people in relationships they don't approve of and want the government to ban it.

It's possible to have progress, i.e. advancements in terms of equality, treating others humanely, social justice, etc., without having an elected body of bureaucrats come in and make legislation. We, as individuals, can make change happen, by discussing these issues with other people and changing minds.

I could say that I'm against the building of churches, mosques, or any place of worship, because I am. I think it's a waste of resources. My parents have thrown away untold thousands paying tithes. Those are thousands of dollars that could have been saved, invested, or just not flushed down the toilet. And yeah, while some of that may have gone to a good cause, a lot of it just went to the running of the church. Believe me, there is pressure on congregation members to cough up that 10%. Millions of Americans waste that kind of money, thinking that it's going to make them a better Christian, or that they're going to receive some kind of blessing from God. I don't know how mosques run exactly, but I suspect they also operate off the donations of their members.

So, there you have it: I'm opposed to religious buildings and organizations. And, what do you know, it has nothing to do with racism. It's disappointing to see people throwing around "racism" in this thread. I knew that the word has been getting tossed around to the point of making it nearly meaningless, but put a little thought into what you're saying before you click post reply.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 7:26 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2010 7:24:46 PM

It's ok... I even it out when i call them out for their undeniable antisemitism whenever they cheer for Hamas terrorists or other anti-Israel groups

8/9/2010 7:29:22 PM

^^ the difference is that solinari opposes this because they are muslims, not because he thinks religion in general is a waste.

And in the context of the discussion, in this section of TSB, what sense does it make to point out that you don't like the mosque, but you think it should still be built?

Because the issue at hand is that there are fake-ass religious-fascist Americans trying to get the government to block the building of the mosque, despite the fact this mentality goes against everything America stands for, and these people are largely your conservative/tea-bag types, as well as main stream Republican politicians.

What is boils down to is that Solinari and others supports Christian-religious-fascism, because he hasn't denounced the people that think religious freedom only belongs to Christians, and is offering them support. He's trying to speak out of both sides of his mouth.

[Edited on August 9, 2010 at 7:36 PM. Reason : ]

8/9/2010 7:36:39 PM

Hahaha yea location has nothing to do with this issue.... Shit I mean i don't even know why gz is even mentioned in the thread title or anything! What's up with that?

8/9/2010 7:41:09 PM

Quote :

"the difference is that solinari opposes this because they are muslims"

that is the key point you are missing. I have no problem with the general building of mosques, or any other religious structure (as long as they dont force their shit on me). I have a problem with the location of this particular one.

again, I think they should be legally allowed to build it. I just dont like it.

8/9/2010 9:11:12 PM

^ I understand that YOU think that, but that's an irrelevant thought.

Do you think the people on your side (who are the subject of this thread) lobbying the government of NY City, NY State, and the federal politicians to fold to the terrorists, or the people who oppose mosques anywhere because of muslims should have their views taken seriously?

Do you really think that I or anyone care what your emotional state is on this issue?

The real issue here is about the spread of right-wing intolerance, being harbored by the mainstream republicans/conservatives. If you want to see a fine example of a country where peoples' emotional whims guide society, then visit Saudi Arabia. The US doesn't need to become a Christian version of Saudi Arabia, which is what a growing number of Republicans and conservatives seem to want.

8/9/2010 9:35:33 PM

people are FREE to lobby whatever they want. just because you dont agree with their opinion, doesnt necessarily make them oppressive. and just because they believe in what they do, doesnt mean they get to subvert the Constitution. its pretty fucking simple. give me a break with your scare-mongering bullshit. your vision of utopia, where personal and private feelings/attitudes are COMPLETELY removed from the opinion-forming process is naive and disingenuous.

THAT is what is irrelevant to this conversation.

8/9/2010 9:47:41 PM

Quote :

"people are FREE to lobby whatever they want."

But it's up to intelligent, thoughtful people to stop the dumb, senseless people from lobbying for dumb, senseless things.

The fact of the matter is that the people so offended by this mosque that they want the government to step in are dumb and senseless, and the Republicans and conservatives and yourself are coddling them. Just like they did Joe the Plumber, and Sarah Palin.

Quote :

"just because you dont agree with their opinion, doesnt necessarily make them oppressive. a"

Haha, true, but in this case, it does.

8/9/2010 9:57:25 PM

oh god, again with the straw man

no one here is advocating that the government stop the mosque

I understand that you wish we were, because it would make it a lot easier for you to prove we were wrong

but sadly, no.

8/9/2010 10:13:57 PM

The same folks who don't want to see this mosque built because "it just doesn't feel right" are all too silent when people bitch about mortgage brokers and bankers signing people up for loans they couldn't afford because hating these institutions "just doesn't feel right" in light of personal responsibility and all.

8/9/2010 10:24:12 PM

8/9/2010 10:25:20 PM