We just need a Point Guard (PG). Once we get PG, we're going to be running with the big dogs. Everything starts and ends with the PG. We don't have a Point Guard. PG is the most important position. Once we get a PG, we'll be able to win with 4 other walk ons. We just don't have a PG!!1 Nobody on the team can play PG. Point Guard.

2/11/2009 2:34:33 PM

^you make some great points. whether you're being sarcastic of not.

2/11/2009 2:35:37 PM

Quote :

"We just need a Point Guard (PG). Once we get PG, we're going to be running with the big dogs. "

I agree with your general theory on PGs, but you can't honestly think after losing over 60% of our offense next year should Costner leave, that bringing in a PG will make us a top-half ACC team, can you?

It's going to get worse before it gets better next year unfortunately, in my opinion. But it will get better eventually...

2/11/2009 2:47:11 PM

Quote :

"lol, you're the only one's playing a game. I don't have go to any lengths to tell you why an 11-28 record is crap, because it is crap. I'm not the one coming up with a laundry list of weak excuses as to why such a poor record somehow doesn't reflect poorly on the coach. "

A little perspective here:

Lowe's overall winning % is .53...If we're talking in absolutes here and the record is an absolute reflection on the coach with no other considerations, where is the TOB credibility watch, with a winning % of .44 so far...

I think everyone will agree he is going to be a good coach for us, dispite the poor start.



[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 3:08 PM. Reason : /]

2/11/2009 2:47:19 PM

did anyone read that article...i mean, it actually has some positives

2/11/2009 2:49:55 PM

^^Yeah, you're absolutely right. Obviously I should take Sidney Lowe's record against the Loyola's and UNCG's of the world into account. Tom O'Brien doesn't have the luxury of playing half his games against the deaf and dumb. The sad thing is the fat fuck couldn't even be bothered to be beat two of the cupcakes on our schedule last year.

Great argument there ace. I swear to god our fanbase is full of fucking retards.

2/11/2009 3:08:06 PM

^from the guy who just said:

Quote :

"I'm not the one coming up with a laundry list of weak excuses as to why such a poor record somehow doesn't reflect poorly on the coach"

so the record does reflect poorly sometimes, but not others?

Quote :

" swear to god our fanbase is full of fucking retards."

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2009 3:10:25 PM

Quote :

"I swear to god our fanbase is full of fucking retards."

and you are one of them, shrike

calling our coach a "fat fuck" isnt cool, ace

2/11/2009 3:11:34 PM

Quote :

"lol, you're the only one's playing a game. I don't have go to any lengths to tell you why an 11-28 record is crap, because it is crap. I'm not the one coming up with a laundry list of weak excuses as to why such a poor record somehow doesn't reflect poorly on the coach. The funniest part of this whole thing is after every win you guys are like "lol, see we were right!". When we try to point out what was wrong with the team in a win where we blew a huge lead and had to hang on to win the game in overtime, you guys call it nitpicking The sad fact is that as of right now, Sidney Lowe is exactly what his W-L record says he is, and no amount "nitpicking" on your part can justify that record as being anything other than unacceptable."

I never give the "we were right" bullshit after a win. And as much bullshit as you think the excuses are, the point guard situation, the scholarship situation, and the injury situation are unavoidable, and out of Lowe's control. I didn't say the 11-28 record isn't shit. I said there is a reason we have a shit record, and thats not 100% on Lowe. If you're ignoring the so called "excuses", you don't have our programs best interest at hand.

I fucking hate you people. You're putting words in my mouth. You're assuming that everyone who defends Lowe is OK with our record. You couldn't be farther off target.

The most frustrating thing is, that no matter how much it makes it to the print media, a portion of our fans don't realize that what you say on a message board does matter. If a bunch of fucks like yourself continually come out hating on Lowe, as stupid as it seems, that shit makes it to the media. 4 fucking articles in 2 days. Is it fair? no, because some of you (not everyone in this thread) are fucking retarded....and have no logical basis besides our record to bash Lowe. The evidence against your argument is vast, and not one person has come up with a good reason why Lowe deserves the outlash that has occured against him.


And for the record, this bullshit that the Lowe' lovers throw out about "he's done so much for the university" and "he won us an NC" and what not, pisses me off too. Those are the people you're refering to, I'm just here to try to set the record straight. I recognize his apparent shortcomings, but I'm not going to talk shit about him until he shows the inability to adjust by year 5. So suck my dick, k?thx.

2/11/2009 3:15:10 PM

Well

I mean

He isn't skinny.

2/11/2009 3:15:58 PM

but he is far from fat...he lost something like 20 lbs in the off season

Ralph Friedgen is a fat fuck

2/11/2009 3:19:23 PM

Quote :

"so the record does reflect poorly sometimes, but not others?"

I'll answer this. Yes. Absolutely it does.

2003-2004. We have a 20 win regular season. We finish 11-5 in the ACC, good for 2nd place. Was that a huge accomplishment that got the fanbase pumped up? Nope. After we lost to Vanderbilt everyone wanted Herb fired.

2008-2009 hypothetical. We win 20 regular seasons games and finish 10-6 in the ACC, good for 4th place. Would that be a huge accomplishment and get the fanbase pumped up? Good God, people would be saying Lowe is a better coach than K and Roy.

Records mean different things, based on circumstances. TOB has shown CLEAR improvement and there isn't ANYONE who does not think he is building a good program.

Lowe has regressed since year one. Regardless of the factors, there is a CLEAR regression and as he gets more of his players in this regression has plateaued or even got worse (we started last years ACC play better than this years).

2/11/2009 3:20:13 PM

Quote :

"so the record does reflect poorly sometimes, but not others?"

WOW YOU GOT ME.

Wait, no you didn't, you're just being an idiot because you have no real argument. I didn't only quote Lowe's ACC record by accident. I hope you would have figured that out on your own instead of making an ass of yourself while trying to "pwn" someone on the internet. Jesus christ.

Quote :

"calling our coach a "fat fuck" isnt cool, ace "

Yeah, I'm sure I hurt his feelings

Quote :

"I said there is a reason we have a shit record, and thats not 100% on Lowe. If you're ignoring the so called "excuses", you don't have our programs best interest at hand."

Thing is, there will ALWAYS be factors out the coaches control. Hell, I can't remember a single Herb season where something didn't go wrong. Watkins injury, Evtimov injury, Powell leaving early, Bethel getting ass aids, Costner injury, etc..... The point is that coaches have to adjust, lineups and personnel will never be exactly perfect, and you have to make to do with what you've got. The frustrating part is that Lowe did exactly that his first season and has since regressed horribly.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 3:42 PM. Reason : :]

2/11/2009 3:28:42 PM

Quote :

"I'll answer this. Yes. Absolutely it does"

which is what i'm getting at. record alone doesn't tell the whole story.

Quote :

"WOW YOU GOT ME. Wait, no you didn't, you're just being an idiot because you have no real argument. I didn't only quote Lowe's ACC record by accident. I hope you would have figured that out on your own instead of making an ass of yourself while trying to "pwn" someone on the internet. Jesus christ."

not trying to get anyone buddy. simply pointing out you said:

Quote :

"I'm not the one coming up with a laundry list of weak excuses as to why such a poor record somehow doesn't reflect poorly on the coach"

then promptly came up with excuses for why its different for TOB (who is a great coach)....Simple yes or no question w/o getting your panties wadded in your ass:

is a coach

Quote :

"exactly what his W-L record says he is"

or not?

2/11/2009 3:48:00 PM

Quote :

"Thing is, there will ALWAYS be factors out the coaches control. Hell, I can't remember a single Herb season where something didn't go wrong. Watkins injury, Evtimov injury, Powell leaving early, Bethel getting ass aids, Costner injury, etc..... The point is that coaches have to adjust, lineups and personnel will never be exactly perfect, and you have to make to do with what you've got. The frustrating part is that Lowe did exactly that his first season and has since regressed horribly."

since that was a somewhat reasonable response, I'll dignify it with one of my own.

My question to you is, why are you ignoring it an chalking it up to an "excuse" with Lowe? In reality, Lowe is less equip to deal with those injuries than Herb was because of his scholarship situation, which he inherited...he did not create this mess. He did go out on a limb to recruit guys like Javi, Johnson, etc, but he had to do that or we'd be playing 6-7 guys deep and when Farnold gets hurt, we have Grant playing point last year, or this year we can't bench a guy if he's playing poorly in a game.

I'm telling you, I haven't said that anyone is wrong to question Sidney's coaching abilities to this point, but you can't question it without looking at the shitty hand he was dealt. Regarding his first season, he had an experienced veteran leader playing the most important position on the floor, and without Atsur in the lineup, his record is probably worse his first year than it has been the past 2 seasons. I actually think we're playing better basketball right now than we have since the tournament in 07, but unfortunately we don't have the wins to show for it.

I just think that if you're going to question him, you also have to give him the chance to prove himself with guys he recruited with a full recruiting effort (...which means the 09 class). Our problem has been PG, and my only comeback to that argument has been that he's already recruited 1 for next year and signed him (brown), he had another one committed for the next year (Harrow), and he probably has a 50-50 chance to land the #1 pg in the 09 class, also a top 2-3 player nationally regardless of position. So if PG is the problem, and you blame lowe for not recruiting a pg so far, can we not all agree to wait till next year (when he gets those recruits) to judge him?

2/11/2009 3:54:43 PM

Quote :

"The frustrating part is that Lowe did exactly that his first season and has since regressed horribly.""

actually, our success that year correlated pretty strongly with atsur being able to play.

2/11/2009 3:59:50 PM

^^^

Quote :

"Honestly, the lengths you guys go to defend a guy who is a combined 11-28 in conference games is ridiculous."

Quote :

"I don't have go to any lengths to tell you why an 11-28 record is crap"

Quote :

"Sidney Lowe is exactly what his W-L record says he is"

There, I bolded it for you. I never mentioned his overall record, or Tom O'Brien, or anything but Lowe's poor showing against ACC competition and how you people are constantly making excuses for it. You're asking me to defend a point I never made. Tom O'Brien has shown improvement, has shown the ability to have success even with an almost unprecedented rash of injuries. Sidney Lowe has not. Until he does, then yes, HE is exactly what his record says he is.

And seriously, the way you guys regard Engin Atsur, you'd think he was the starting PG for an NBA playoff team or something. He was serviceable but no world beater. Does he even get minutes on whatever Euro league team he's on now? Going from a team with Engin Atsur to a team without Engin Atsur but with a power forward who is getting minutes on one of the best teams in NBA right now should not equate to a worse record. There is no excuse for that and no way to spin it otherwise.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 4:12 PM. Reason : :]

2/11/2009 4:04:25 PM

atsur for heisman

2/11/2009 4:05:10 PM

tl;dr

2/11/2009 4:07:41 PM

^^^that's not a yes/no answer.

but, to be fair, when lowe has a sub .500 acc record with a core of players that were recruited to run his offense i'll be right there with ya.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 4:10 PM. Reason : .]

Quote :

"And seriously, the way you guys regard Engin Atsur, you'd think he was the starting PG for an NBA playoff team or something. He was serviceable but no world beater."

nobody ever said he was the best ever, but atsur had somewhere around a 2-1 assist to TO ratio in his last year....nt stellar, but if we had that in a pg this year where would we be? I don't know for sure, but I'd say we're somewhere around 1-2 this year.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 4:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2009 4:08:20 PM

beck is the worst pg evar!

2/11/2009 4:13:51 PM

Quote :

"Tom O'Brien has shown improvement, has shown the ability to have success even with an almost unprecedented rash of injuries. Sidney Lowe has not."

haha Shrike, you're awesome. Seeing as how TOB didn't recruit the '08 First team All-ACC QB, I'd say that's a pretty good hand to be dealt, coming into a school as a new coach. O'brien has shown some improvement, but he stepped into a better situation than Lowe. So your argument is not that fair given the circumstances.

2/11/2009 4:29:34 PM

Atsur was a guy you could give the ball when everything was breaking down and he'd make something happen. He could shoot, he could pass, he didn't turn it over, and every once in a while his slow ass would take it to the hole and surprise me.

We have nobody who can do that on this team with any reliability. Tons of players can do that without being NBA caliber. He's not in the NBA because he's not athletic...not because he doesn't know how to play basketball. He's probably a better player fundamentally than many major contributors in the league right now, but he's slow as fuck.

2/11/2009 4:32:33 PM

how about we get a lockdown defender too!!!!!!!!!
how about we get a lockdown defender too!!!!!!!!!
how about we get a lockdown defender too!!!!!!!!!
how about we get a lockdown defender too!!!!!!!!!
how about we get a lockdown defender too!!!!!!!!!

im sick of players have their career field days against us

im sick of players have their career field days against us
im sick of players have their career field days against us
im sick of players have their career field days against us

2/11/2009 4:35:02 PM

The reason McCauley and Costner were better when they were Soph's is because they had Atsur. In college you must have a point gaurd that can control the game and not turn it over. This is what we have been missing. It's not that hard to figure out. If we would have a gaurd, like Atsur, that we could rely on we would be NCAA bound. Remember what happend when Atsur was hurt during his senior year? That has been us since he left.

2/11/2009 4:41:56 PM

yep, this thread is still retarded

2/11/2009 4:42:03 PM

So, should asking for a PG be in the 'Sidney Lowe credibility watch' thread? Meaning, is it really his fault that we don't have a better PG?

2/11/2009 4:46:10 PM

This thread should be locked and only opened for 30 minutes after the last game.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 4:47 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2009 4:47:20 PM

Quote :

"Atsur was a guy you could give the ball when everything was breaking down and he'd make something happen."

Wut?

I'm not saying Atsur didn't do some good things for us (I mean...we would have been wretched that year without him)...but I think the ineptness of our current point guards is making him seem a lot better than he really was.

Atsur was a great floor general and leader. He didn't turn the ball over a lot, made some smart decisions, and was adequate offensively (could hit the open jumper and drive on occasion). But he ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT the guy you could give the ball to when everything was breaking down to make something happen. Grundy, Hodge, Grant (except his last year), CC, etc. were those kinds of guys. Shit...I'd rather have the ball in Bethel, Gainey, or Clifford Crawford's hands when the play was breaking down than Atsur's. Loved the guy...but he was never athletic enough to pull up in another guard's face off the dribble or drive to the hoop and take it to another team's bigs.

2/11/2009 4:49:05 PM

Quote :

"O'brien has shown some improvement, but he stepped into a better situation than Lowe. So your argument is not that fair given the circumstances."

I would love to hear how Lowe was dealt a worse situation than TOB.

2/11/2009 4:51:37 PM

it's nice to have a quarterback

2/11/2009 5:01:43 PM

It's also nice to have 2 McDs All-Americans and top 100 recruits.

TOB went 5-7 with Evans and the team played WAY better than the year before under Chuck.

2/11/2009 5:02:51 PM

Quote :

"I would love to hear how Lowe was dealt a worse situation than TOB."

Well, as he stated, he did inherit Russel Wilson. (and nate irving...)

Quote :

"So, should asking for a PG be in the 'Sidney Lowe credibility watch' thread? Meaning, is it really his fault that we don't have a better PG?"

As has been stated, most top-caliber pgs are recruited for years. Sid didn't have that luxury. He had to do some quick recruiting. Result? Javi, Farnold, and Marques.

2/11/2009 5:04:18 PM

Are you guys seriously arguing that Sidney Lowe inherited a worse team then TOB?

Do you remember why Amato got canned?

Do you remember that Herb peaced out of town?

Sidney inherited part of a team that made the NCAA-T.

TOB inherited a ball club that got waxed by UNC and ECU and was trying for the world record on false starts. Not to mention its FOOTBALL. You have two teams, offense and defense, that you have to sort out before you've got a prayer at being good. We may not be good in football, but we're terrible in basketball.

Not that you can even compare two drastically different sports, or should the coach comparison there have been made in the first place.

Like really, there's being positive, and then there's vehemently arguing the absurd.

2/11/2009 5:13:08 PM

Quote :

"Sidney inherited part of a team that made the NCAA-T."

a very small part. in between herb and sidney that team lost: cam bennerman, tony bethel, illian evtimov, cedric simmons and andrew brackman.

2/11/2009 5:16:36 PM

Marques and Degand were both being recruited by Herb FWIW.

2/11/2009 5:17:40 PM

nope, fwiw.

2/11/2009 5:17:59 PM

yeah, that's not true at all.

[Edited on February 11, 2009 at 5:53 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2009 5:52:54 PM

i'm telling ya, you guys need to rewatch the UNC game from sid's first year. Engin didn't have a mind-blowing stat line, but when you watch the game, you notice that he is always involved. the offense starts and thrives with him, just like with any good point guard. how well our offense run was almost entirely because of engin. if you don't believe me, watch that game and notice how different that offense was compared to anything we have seen since his departure. it shows you how much we really are missing a good college point guard and how much better we would be if we had one.

so haters stfu until you go watch that game again.

2/11/2009 5:56:10 PM

Quote :

"Wut? I'm not saying Atsur didn't do some good things for us (I mean...we would have been wretched that year without him)...but I think the ineptness of our current point guards is making him seem a lot better than he really was. Atsur was a great floor general and leader. He didn't turn the ball over a lot, made some smart decisions, and was adequate offensively (could hit the open jumper and drive on occasion). But he ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT the guy you could give the ball to when everything was breaking down to make something happen. Grundy, Hodge, Grant (except his last year), CC, etc. were those kinds of guys. Shit...I'd rather have the ball in Bethel, Gainey, or Clifford Crawford's hands when the play was breaking down than Atsur's. Loved the guy...but he was never athletic enough to pull up in another guard's face off the dribble or drive to the hoop and take it to another team's bigs. "

I didn't say he was Hodge. I basically said the exact same thing you just said. The thing about atsur, is that he WAS a guy you could give the ball to in crunch time and not worry that something bad was going to happen....in addition, he made plays. Was he flashy? did he break guys down off the dribble? no, but he hit big shots, and even if he didn't hit shots, you had to respect his ability to shoot. In addition, that composure and lack of turnovers that you yourself saw in him is what made him that guy. He could get the ball where it needed to go. Thats what we're missing right now, and thats why the legend of atsur grows.

2/11/2009 6:27:52 PM

This topic needs more point guard. Point Guard. PG

2/11/2009 6:34:26 PM

I remember last year after a Bobcats game I was shooting the shit with Steve Martin, and made a joking comment to him about "we need you to commentate more games" and I told him something about us winning the last one that he called...and matter of factly he said "you NEED a POINT GUARD"

2/11/2009 6:45:11 PM

Just good enough to keep it questionable. Epic collapses, questionable decisions, but no bad losses.

2/11/2009 9:03:00 PM

Gotta give Sid a shit ton of credibility with his defensive assignments on teague

PGs played pretty solid besides that epic little stretch where we turned it over 3 straight times leading to 10 WF points

2/11/2009 9:08:53 PM

Quote :

"Gotta give Sid a shit ton of credibility with his defensive assignments on teague"

i was about to come in and say one thing that people (including me) dont give sid enough credit for is his D's

2/11/2009 9:21:59 PM

yeah the box and one and all those other 'junk' defenses did a damn good job on exploiting Wake's weaknesses like crazy

Sidney gets mad credibility on his defensive sets and drawing things up

Sidney loses mad credibility by our obvious weakness, the total inability to close out games and maintain intensity down the stretch

I think we need to work specifically on 'run the clock' offensive sets because it's pretty obvious that we're never able to set anything up in the last seconds

still not a bad way to start the second half of the season, if we were firing on all cylinders like this from the beginning we'd have notched Florida, Marquette and VT, 16-9 really isn't that far away for this team, even Davidson was close

even with our gaping glaring flaws we're on the edge, it's like reaching for the grail in The Last Crusade................'i can almost touch it'

2/11/2009 9:33:10 PM

^yeah, and she fell into a bottomless pit.

i never post in this thread but i will make one observation. this team, despite stupid losses and terrible collapses, has improved overall since the beginning of the season. at least that's progress.

2/11/2009 9:44:23 PM

2/11/2009 9:45:33 PM

^^^ absolutely, the box and one with Fells on Teague was really affective

Also I hope Lowe noticed that the offense was working very well when we had Javi and Degand in the game at the same time. But please please please when we get a big lead don't shut down the offense and start playing like your trying not to lose. Keep going strong to the basket and extend the lead, especially if the other team is already over the foul limit. We looked like we were scared to take a shot after about the ten minute mark. But HELL YEAH, we beat a team in the top ten.

2/11/2009 9:55:43 PM

Quote :

" Sidney loses mad credibility by our obvious weakness, the total inability to close out games and maintain intensity down the stretch "

closing out games falls on the players... sid doesnt turn the ball over


this was a great coached game, hands down

2/11/2009 9:57:20 PM