great feedback...yea I couldnt decide between an entry level Savage rifle or scoping the shotgun

11/28/2010 8:45:28 PM

well, a Savage rifle plus base/rings/scope is going to cost more than a shotgun scope, but it will do a shitload more for you than a scoped shotgun.

I'd either do that and leave the shotgun alone, or save my money and leave the shotgun alone.

11/28/2010 9:08:59 PM

A scope on a 12ga is a scope waiting to break. At least that's my experience.
I think a rifled slug out to 75 yards, or even 100 yards in perfect conditions is doable. Anything farther and you're having to compensate too much for trajectory. Since it's that short I think other sights are better options than a scope. A nice red dot would work as long as it's not one of those $40 walmart deals. Cheaper red dots dont hold zero well. I think the best are ghost ring sights followed by rifle sights. Ghost rings are faster and almost as fine in aiming. I can hit a 10" plate out to 100 yards pretty consistently with Mossberg factory ghost ring sights and cheap Brennekke KO slugs.

On the long range thing...slugs pack a lot of punch at short range but I wouldn't use them on bear or hogs. They simply don't penetrate well because of the soft lead used and they lose a lot of energy the farther you get. You'd be much better off to get a rifle.

11/29/2010 12:38:58 AM

utility deer rifles are cheap enough that the only reason you should ever deer hunt with a slug gun is if laws or club rules make it your only option. i might would consider slugs or even buckshot if i was hunting in the woods and knew i wouldn't have a shot longer than 40 or 50 yds.

doesn't take more than $300 in a rifle set up that will put deer on the ground.

11/29/2010 12:55:05 AM

Quote :

"utility deer rifles are cheap enough that the only reason you should ever deer hunt with a slug gun is if laws or club rules make it your only option. i might would consider slugs or even buckshot if i was hunting in the woods and knew i wouldn't have a shot longer than 40 or 50 yds. "

Exactly my thoughts, and I'd rather have a 12-gauge full of buckshot and be limited to 40 yards or a little more than to have slugs but still only have 75 yards to work with.

Quote :

" A scope on a 12ga is a scope waiting to break. "

You think? My 7mm REM recoils harder than a 12-gauge, and my scope has held up just fine after many hundreds of rounds.

Quote :

"Ghost rings are faster and almost as fine in aiming. I can hit a 10" plate out to 100 yards pretty consistently with Mossberg factory ghost ring sights and cheap Brennekke KO slugs."

Yep, I once hit 9/10 human-torso silhouettes at 500 meters with an open-sighted M16A2. You don't need a scope at any distance at which a shotgun slug is a viable option. The thing probably would only hold, what, 4-5 MOA accuracy if you shot it from a vise...I'd rather have the ruggedness, simplicity, fast acquisition, and lower expense of iron sights.

...but what I'd really rather have is pretty much any other option besides a slug gun.

11/29/2010 6:42:04 PM

anybody got one for sale

11/29/2010 10:35:59 PM

a what?

11/29/2010 11:01:52 PM

rifle.

11/29/2010 11:03:19 PM

Quote :

"You think? My 7mm REM recoils harder than a 12-gauge, and my scope has held up just fine after many hundreds of rounds."

That might have been a stretch as there are lots of scopes that can handle the recoil.

Having said that, the recoil impulse on a rifle is different than a shotgun.
Much of the powder in a rifle is burned in the first half of the barrel, but it's still burning powder and accelerating the bullet right as it leaves the barrel. It's "gradually" applying pressure over the length of time that the bullet is in the barrel.
In a shotgun almost all of the powder is burnt in the first couple of inches of barrel. All of its energy is developed in just a fraction of the time a rifle takes.
A shotgun gives you a super fast smack vs a relatively long push in a rifle.
That big recoil over such a short duration is hell on optics.

And...if you do the math (which I will not do, but I'll point you to the numbers) then you'll see the recoil energy of a 12ga is still more than a 7mm. It just doesn't feel like it recoils as much because you're not physically pushed as far, you're just pushed faster.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

11/30/2010 8:53:31 PM

I can't speak to the impulse, but I'm pretty sure a 7mm REM delivers more muzzle energy than any normal 12-gauge load.

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 9:00 PM. Reason : not sure what that "recoil energy" represents.]

11/30/2010 8:58:24 PM

More muzzle energy, yes...but the calculation for energy gives more weight to velocity (it's velocity squared in the equation) than mass. With the 7mm making over twice the velocity it makes sense that it has higher energy despite only having 1/4-1/5 the mass.
Muzzle energy is calculated at the muzzle. It doesn't really tell you anything about how the projectile got to that velocity.

12/1/2010 10:38:29 PM

Right...that's the impulse.

It does, however, equal the amount of energy imparted to your shoulder.

12/1/2010 11:36:03 PM

i think what he's saying is the amount of time over which the energy is delivered matters more than how much energy is delivered to your shoulder

12/1/2010 11:49:09 PM

Yes, that's what he's saying.

12/2/2010 12:16:03 AM

Quote :

"i think what he's saying is the amount of time over which the energy is delivered matters more than how much energy is delivered to your shoulder"

Yeah.
It's kinda neat playing with a bunch of different guns. I was at the range with my boss who has a 458 winmag; I brought my Mossberg 500.
It took about 10 rounds of regular 12ga slugs before I decided to take a break for fear that I'd start flinching from shoulder pain. It took about 10 rounds of 458 before I decided to take a break for fear of my retinas detaching or teeth rattling loose. The 12ga is like being hit with a little league bat in the shoulder while the 458 feels like being dropped on your face from a short distance off the ground. Two different feelings but about the same amount of energy.

12/2/2010 2:06:57 AM

I made some ballistics gelatin yesterday and took it to the range today. It was really cool to see the cavity made by a 45ACP hollow point compared to the conical shaped punchout made by a 223. I also got to test my theory on birdshot vs buckshot at 5 yards. birdshot made a nasty wound, with what appeared to be well over a hundred pellets embedded about 6-8 inches into the gelatin. The buckshot made the gelatin explode and left it shredded.

I'm looking forward to making the gelatin again sometime and taking some cross-sectional pictures.

12/5/2010 4:21:14 PM

Did you calibrate it with a BB?

12/5/2010 4:37:54 PM

no, I don't own a BB gun or a chronograph. I wasn't trying to be overly scientific about the whole thing; it was just more intesting to shoot something reactive as opposed to a paper target.

12/5/2010 5:47:15 PM

Quote :

"I made some ballistics gelatin yesterday and took it to the range today. It was really cool to see the cavity made by a 45ACP hollow point compared to the conical shaped punchout made by a 223. I also got to test my theory on birdshot vs buckshot at 5 yards. birdshot made a nasty wound, with what appeared to be well over a hundred pellets embedded about 6-8 inches into the gelatin. The buckshot made the gelatin explode and left it shredded. I'm looking forward to making the gelatin again sometime and taking some cross-sectional pictures."

Go here to read as much as you want about self-defense ammo and ballistics gel:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Some good info in these links too:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot42.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot44.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45.htm

12/5/2010 5:55:41 PM

Sorry for the shitty photo, but, Im very excited for my new mk iii. Never had a 22 pistol before so Im ready to blast through some cheap ammo this winter. The gun feels great -- nice solid construction. Little bit heavy, but, I really dislike the way the shorter barrels look in comparison and the p22 just felt cheap. Buckmark was OK, was my second choice.

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 8:34 PM. Reason : verbs help comprehension]

12/5/2010 8:33:38 PM

^^^^How hard is it to actually make the Ballistics Gel? I have seen different mixtures, and it looks to be a little harder than its worth.

12/5/2010 8:37:48 PM

Without searching through 92 pages...anyone have recommendations for a shotgun to have in the house for home protection?

I've shot before but it's been a while. I don't anticipate having to use it but it would be nice to have one if the unfortunate happened and someone tried to break in.

Thanks for your recommendations.

12/5/2010 8:43:37 PM

just get a remington 870 express

cheap and solid all around shotgun

you can slickdeal it and it comes up to around $230

12/5/2010 8:44:41 PM

mossberg 500 will do the job reliably. about $200 at a pawn shop. i like the location of the slide release on the mossberg better than the remington, but both are just fine for home defense.

12/5/2010 8:48:39 PM

^ This. The 500 is good enough for the Coast Gard, its good enough for me. Slide release is better on the 500 as stated before IMO.

12/5/2010 9:03:56 PM

Quote :

"How hard is it to actually make the Ballistics Gel? I have seen different mixtures, and it looks to be a little harder than its worth. "

it took a lot of mixing, but it wasn't that difficult otherwise.

12/5/2010 9:48:02 PM

That's pretty cool.

The brassfetcher websites are very good for gel tests too.

12/5/2010 10:19:01 PM

Quote :

"anyone have recommendations for a shotgun to have in the house for home protection?"

I have a Saiga 12 with a 10-round mag. I mean, how can you go wrong with essentially a 12-gauge AK47? You can run anything from a 5-round mag to a 20-round drum, too. They're also fairly inexpensive (prob $450-500 brand new).

Quote :

"The 12ga is like being hit with a little league bat in the shoulder while the 458 feels like being dropped on your face from a short distance off the ground. Two different feelings but about the same amount of energy."

This is the mechanical engineer in me speaking:

I know what you are trying to say, but the energy of those two rounds isn't even close. The 12-gauge isn't even playing the same sport as a .458 when it comes to energy.

Quote :

"birdshot made a nasty wound, with what appeared to be well over a hundred pellets embedded about 6-8 inches into the gelatin. The buckshot made the gelatin explode and left it shredded."

I'd like to add that this ignores the effects of bone, etc. I certainly wouldn't want to get hit with birdshot, especially at close range, but ribs, sternum, etc would go a long way towards absorbing the impact of the pellets. It would suck, for sure, but I'm not convinced that it would drop an assailant in his tracks. I have no such doubts about, say, #1 or #0 buckshot.

12/5/2010 10:57:18 PM

Quote :

"Without searching through 92 pages...anyone have recommendations for a shotgun to have in the house for home protection? I've shot before but it's been a while. I don't anticipate having to use it but it would be nice to have one if the unfortunate happened and someone tried to break in. Thanks for your recommendations."

I will second the Mossberg 500, more specifically, a 590A1 (pump action, 18.5" barrel, 6 shot). there are lots of used ones that are very affordable. additionally, many have optional/extra features which may suit your needs/wants right off the bat (such as an adjustable stock, pistol grip, pistol grip + adjustable stock, etc). Check out Fuquay Gun & Gold, they normally have several there (assuming you're looking for used).

12/5/2010 10:58:26 PM

I know the owners of http://www.hyattguns.com/ so I'll probably go there (and I'm in Charlotte), but thank you for the recommendations so I don't sound like a complete idiot when I go in.

Would this be a good option?

http://www.hyattgunstore.com/mossberg-500-persuader-12-gauge-pump-shotgun-parkerized-finish-pistol-grip-kit-heat-shield-18.5-barrel.html

12/5/2010 11:07:13 PM

yeah that'd be fine

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 11:11 PM. Reason : dfas]

12/5/2010 11:11:18 PM

yeh, that would be fine. The heat shield on that gun is really just for looks, so if you don't care for it and can save a few bucks (if you wanted to), you could go with one without it.

also, that does come with both butt stock and pistol grip which is nice, though I prefer a combo adjustable stock+pistol grip (this is completely user-dependent, so go with what you feels right). anyways, that's a good deal from what I can tell and should serve you well.

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 11:12 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2010 11:11:56 PM

i would recommend sticking with the standard butt stock, especially for a novice shooter. a lot more stable and easier to aim imo

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 11:15 PM. Reason : the combos like ^ is talking about are good too. like he said it's personal preference.]

12/5/2010 11:15:09 PM

Quote :

"a lot more stable and easier to aim imo"

this is why I say depending on what feels right; I think the combo is much more stable and easier to aim. I also think it would perform better in a tactical situation... but I'll stop there

of course, this may be due to shooter style; if you're used to long guns, maybe the butt stock is best; while coming from handguns, the combo feels best (which is my case)


[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 11:30 PM. Reason : .]

12/5/2010 11:18:26 PM

yeah, i was just saying to use the standard stock over the pistol grip (the two options that package comes with)

you're right. i like the standard butt stock b/c it's what i'm used to from small game hunting.

[Edited on December 5, 2010 at 11:26 PM. Reason : JUST PRETEND THE BAD GUY IS A RABBIT, OK?]

12/5/2010 11:25:40 PM

haha. and oh yeh, I see what you're saying. I certainly agree with a standard butt stock over just a pistol grip (ewww) if you're not going with a combo.

12/5/2010 11:29:33 PM

Quote :

"I know what you are trying to say, but the energy of those two rounds isn't even close. The 12-gauge isn't even playing the same sport as a .458 when it comes to energy."

Ok...let me get this straight. The muzzle energy of a 7mm is more than a 12ga. This is fact and I'm not arguing it's not true.
The recoil energy of almost any 12ga load is more than a 7mm. This is fact and I am arguing that this is true. Are you saying this is or isn't true?

projectile's muzzle energy =/= firearm's recoil energy
projectile's momentum = firearm's recoil
12ga momentum (438gr*1300fps) > 7mm momentum (150gr*3100fps)

Here's some other evidence if you didn't look at the first links I posted. We'll take out the 12ga altogether.
7mm 150gr@3110fps, muzzle energy=3221 ft-lb, recoil energy in 8.5 lb rifle=19.2 ft-lb
458Win 500gr@2100fps, muzzle energy=4850 ft-lb, recoil energy in 9 lb rifle=62.3 ft-lb

The muzzle energy of the 458 is 50% more than the 7mm yet the recoil energy is over 3 times more, even in a heavier rifle. If muzzle energy = recoil energy then the 458 should recoil less.

[Edited on December 6, 2010 at 1:32 AM. Reason : http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm]

12/6/2010 1:18:02 AM

I've got a nylon shotgun shell bandolier, a synthetic inside the waistband holster for a glock 19 and another suede leather holster for a glock 19 for free. PM me if you want to come pick them up. (I don't think any of these have any great resale value)

12/7/2010 10:49:39 AM

pm sent

12/7/2010 12:04:31 PM

i plan on going to a 3 gun match@ DPRC tomorrow. anybody wanna car pool? if not anyone else gonna be there? PM me ur contact info if you wanna meet up.

12/10/2010 9:07:49 PM

This applies to about 80% of gun people on the internet and is why I don't go to ar15.com or places like that anymore.

http://community.greygrouptraining.com/2010/12/14/internet-gun-forumseverything-you-need-to-know.aspx

12/14/2010 4:15:19 PM

lulz

12/14/2010 5:07:52 PM

lol

The only gun forum I'm active in anymore is thehighroad.org
The moderators do a pretty good job of keeping the stupidity out.

12/15/2010 12:38:36 AM

10-8 is a good one, posting is done under real names, verifiable ID.

12/15/2010 7:36:22 AM

For real good conversation among competition shooters, you may try http://www.thegunvault.org
It is a small board with maybe 200 users, and half of them live in the pacific NW.

12/16/2010 6:29:20 PM

Does anyone have first-hand experience with the Walther P22? Forgive me if it has been discussed previously

http://anthonybove.com/Walther%20P22.jpg

[Edited on December 16, 2010 at 11:39 PM. Reason : f]

12/16/2010 11:39:39 PM

^I got one several years back, it's a little picky on ammo.

12/17/2010 7:21:27 PM

I imagine it's like any other plinker pistol- fun and cheap to shoot (although I, too, have heard it is picky about the ammo it chooses to cycle)

I went with a Ruger (specifically the 22/45) because I liked the size, weight, and feel of it. Any of the MK series are fine IMO though

12/17/2010 8:17:58 PM

I've got one. It's a fun little pistol to shoot. Like a number of .22s it's actually tricky to get tight groupings due it's very light weight so I'd recommend getting the little counterweight for the muzzle.

^^ I haven't had any issues with ammo.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/walther%20p22%20weight/alandp/waltherp22/P22_Target_5_B_lrg.jpg

12/17/2010 9:16:22 PM

the ruger 22 or 22/45 is a good gun, have 2, love both. The 5 inch Walther I just got cycles bulk box just fine, all the posts say the 4 inch sucks with bulk box, 5 inch gets enough back pressure to cycle with more or less any 22 LR ammo

12/17/2010 11:23:58 PM