The most common explaination I hear is that myths about Gods are created by primative peoples to explain the natural forces that surround them. I always found this explaination unsatisfying because such myths create more questions (where do the God's come from? Why do they act that way? Why can't I see them? How do you know?). People also often hold religous beliefs long after they have found more satisfying explainations for the world. Further, some religons do not seek to explain natural forces (Buddhism for example).

Yet, every culture on the planet seems to have some form of religon. Is there some ingrained characteristic in humanity that inspires us to form these religons? Is it genetic? Or is there some unseen spiritual world that actually does exist that we struggle to understand?

7/22/2005 1:27:12 AM

Possibly from the fact that it is (and always has been) rather depressing to think that this is the entire sum of the universe.

Or a need for reason. We desire a reason. Why do we exist?

It's also entirely possible it's a sort of defence against those who are stronger. To believe (and have them believe) in a higher stronger power means they don't have complete control.

7/22/2005 1:49:08 AM

To some extent I think society forces one to feel the need to be religious. Those that don't believe in the Christian God sometimes then find themselves looking into other religions because they are surrounded by people who are supposedly being "fulfilled" by their religion.

So, I guess really I have no idea how to answer your question...which is really thought provoking.

7/22/2005 1:51:34 AM

Quote :

"Yet, every culture on the planet seems to have some form of religon."

Which many of them acquired in the last 400 years through European and Western colonization. I wouldn't say that all of them are ingrained, it's a question that can never be answered, but it is thought provoking

7/22/2005 2:14:43 AM

Recent history:

Christians and others copied earlier religions. Mostly politics, etc.



Pre-history:

Not only religion, but language and logic as well all arose as a result of the consumption of mind-altering plants and fungi by humans and pre-humans. (although it wasn’t that simple…..)




Sorry, I know this may disappoint many of you, but it’s the truth. Deal with it.

7/22/2005 2:29:50 AM

That's wierd, Terence McKenna doesn't have a "Dr." before his name. I'm sure all of his research is still accepted and respected by his peers.

7/22/2005 3:02:11 AM

to reassure us.

that this isnt "all there is"

to provide a sense of justice "that rapist may have gotten off with a 3 year sentence but he'll burn in hell"

to explain the unexplainable

7/22/2005 8:15:09 AM

^^^

HELL YES

terrence mckenna kicks ass

He's nutty, of course, but his stuff is pretty interesting

also I haven't ever heard that you needed to be called "dr." affixed to your name before writing respected research. I'll have to remember that

7/22/2005 8:16:28 AM

I think it's a manifestation of trying to explain the sense of wonder that people feel just being alive. The religion is determined by what is most wonderous at the time.

The earliest religions were fertility religions (who we come to exist), then came wonder at death and rebirth - both in the seasonsand in humans (hence sacrificial religions). Next were the nature religions, moving to Helenistic religions where the Gods were personifications of human conditions. Finally came monotheism. Some say monotheism came with the advent of cities. When people stopped being nomatic they could observer the stars for long periods of time and see that there was a system in it all.

That's my take on it, with a little help from Joseph Campbell.

7/22/2005 9:07:47 AM

Socks, you should read Why God Won't Go Away.

It has some pseudo-scientific conjecture towards the end (not really a big deal if you take it with a grain of salt), but the first 90% or so is all about some studies conducted on the brain-chemistry surrounding religious belief.

I think you'd find it pretty interesting, it talks about the need to resolve problems using our basic cognitive operators, the genetic predisposition to rituals, and the benefit of rituals/religious beliefs to human health and survival.

Although drugs were a big part of some religions (the Vikings took them in order to enter their berserker rages, where they thought they were having a religious experience), I think hempster's assertation is probably more hippy tripe -- another attempt to further justify drug use. Look man, you like to get high. That's cool, I do too, sometimes. Stop trying to turn it into some important experience. It's about as profound as video games.

7/22/2005 9:15:38 AM

Because people die.

7/22/2005 9:18:53 AM

Quote :

"another attempt to further justify drug use. Look man, you like to get high. That's cool, I do too, sometimes. Stop trying to turn it into some important experience. It's about as profound as video games"

I did not express, nor mean to imply that the use of mind-altering substances/drugs in human pre-history, even if it resulted in modern language and religion, in any way justifies the continued use of these substances today. That is an entirely different issue.

Also, don't underestimate the effect "video games" and everything that will become of that technology might have over the next thousand generations. I'd say they are rather "profound".

If you like books on the pre-history and history of religion/consciousness (and can take it with a grain of salt,) I really think you'd enjoy reading Food of the Gods.


But don't take my word for it..........

7/22/2005 9:51:05 AM

Eh. Still, I know plenty of people like you. People that think every stroke of creativity is the result of drug use.

It's disconcerting.

7/22/2005 9:55:03 AM

Quote :

"los paises de bolivia, peru, ecuador, y el norte de argentina cultivan la planta"

Quote :

"Por virtud de su profundo significado mistico y espiritual en la religion... la hoja de coca es un simbolo en la identidad del indigena andino"

From my spanish reading assignment the other night.

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 10:55 AM. Reason : .]

7/22/2005 10:53:15 AM

Quote :

"Because people die."

and we don't want to think of our lives as ending.

7/22/2005 11:01:45 AM

Quote :

"Not only religion, but language and logic as well all arose as a result of the consumption of mind-altering plants and fungi by humans and pre-humans."

Once again, hempster made me LOL.

7/22/2005 11:23:03 AM

I think they said in anthropology class that the first signs of religion and religious rituals came about around the same time we started burying our dead.

7/22/2005 11:26:06 AM

The first gods were not like the new gods like buddhism or jesus or Ra.
They were diffrent...they were emotions and creative forces.
(Please look at cave art).
The secondary gods (Odin, Shinto gods) were designed to explain forces of nature only to justify their authority. Once authority was established to the gods only select few (the shamans) were able to contect these gods.
(See I ching, early taoist practice, and bush man art)
Once authority was established by "rogue shaman" priest the secondary gods transcended into the third generation of gods. The third generation were "gods on earth" (pharoahs, jesus, shiva)
There is no last set of gods. Spirital Religous developement has not surpased this point.

7/22/2005 11:28:00 AM

scientology?

7/22/2005 11:28:52 AM

Buddhism is a god?

7/22/2005 11:35:35 AM

just so you all know, mckenna's main premise stems from the fact (yes, fact) that small doses of hallucinogenic mushrooms cause sexual arousal, feelings of euphoria and brotherhood, and sharper eyesight (whereas large amounts do somethign quite different) came into play when ancient hominids found them and brought them into their diets

obviously, the sexual arousal and feelings of brotherhood and causing keener eyesight would allow these hominids an advantage, and his theory is that therefore they gained superiority and evolved more quickly. this accounts for the lack of a "missing link" fossil and why the hominid brain doubled in size many times over a VERY short period

then, as far as the religions, he uses (and another good book is "Magic mushrooms in religion and alchemy") the idea that maybe ergot (the fungus that lsd is synthesized from) infected grain stocks in the area of the world where these religions all got their starts (the middle east) and therefore caused hallucinations so commonly that they became thought of as religious experiences

not that I think he's necessarily right, but the arguments are sound. some of mckenna's stuff is REALLY out there, but that book (food of the gods) is pretty scientific.

7/22/2005 11:40:58 AM

There are plenty of better explanations for short periods of genetic change like, for instance, the founder effect.

7/22/2005 11:49:12 AM

That sounds like a lot of creative speculation hoping to legitimize drug use.

7/22/2005 11:50:23 AM

Can we get back to how Red Fox said buddhism was a god?

7/22/2005 11:51:59 AM

I've read the mushroom book years ago. It is flawed since it looks for one source of the begining of religion. Looking at mushrooms or first bibles as a root source of all religion or one religion is flawed. Religion is about thought. Thought shared between people and belived true. It is not centered around one emotion such as arousal and sorrow. Religons roots even surpass good and evil in age. The book is a good idea but no where near an answer. Human beings including early hominoids were very creative individuals and did not need drugs. If insanity is natural than so is the possiblity that a misunderstood over active imagination pecieved as real is natural as well. When you are a kid dragons are under your bed. Not until impresses there authority can your imagination be wrong.

"If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha"

Religion is about belife.

All you kiddies that point out typos can eat me, Besides you are wrong im speaking spanish

7/22/2005 11:59:43 AM

Buddhism is a god. The entire RELIGON is based in understanding that buddha is in everything and not just buddha. So to say buddha is god since god is eveywhere is actually wrong. Its okay. I'll ask the Dhali Lama on Thursday he is going to be in the park where I live in Wiesbaden.

7/22/2005 12:02:30 PM

Amanita Muscaria.

7/22/2005 12:07:35 PM

^ precisely. At least, that's one of the more common ones in that part of the world.


holy grail

there's also lots of speculation that the rig veda, which mentioned "soma" as the drink that gave people connections to the gods, was actually a mushroom-based drink

manna from heaven:

Quote :

"(13) ...in the morning a dew lay around the camp (14) And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay thin round crust (NKJ: small round substance) like a hoar of frost on the ground. (From the top we see the roundness but from the side it grows like branches of hoarfrost.) (18) ...he that gathered much had nothing left over, he that had little had no lack (21) ...the sun grew hot, it melted (23) ...Boil/seethe what ye will and lay up for the SEVENTH day (28) Jah say: How long will you refuse to keep MY COMMANDMENTS/LAWS (31) ...MANNA like coriander seed, white; and the taste was like (blue)honey. For had ye believed in Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of ME. -John 5:46 (13-14) Once excessive moisture has lifted the mycellial structures (including fruiting) may flourish in the presence of OX manure. Round mushroom top/cap/crust. (18)Those who wanted the effects of higher dosage did not leave any, and if you had to get to work you were satisfies with just a little. (21) Mushrooms melt. I have seen the Glory in the clouds. (23) Psilocybes can be boiled in water and the resulting tea is particularly potent... thus "don't leave your place". Coriander seed is the texture of the "crust" or cap, while the white represents the "hoarfrost" or stem. They bruise blue. Read the books of Daniel, Isaiah, Micah, Hosea, Jonah, Revalation... it only gets more solid. You have seen the antichrist (post-kenedy), now lets beat the beast. If I have told you earthly things, and you didn't believe, how shall you believe if I tell you of heavenly things? -John 3:12"

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 12:45 PM. Reason : ,]

7/22/2005 12:36:53 PM

How many mushrooms grow in the middle east? As this is where religions originate anyways.

7/22/2005 12:42:52 PM

alot less now than they did then, but before mass deforestation, the middle east/greece/mediteranean were heavily forested. At that time, there were alot more.

7/22/2005 12:45:57 PM

Well how often was drug use mentioned in early literature of that area?

7/22/2005 12:55:45 PM

depends on how you define drug use being mentiond. and no, i'm not being dismissive, it's really just not referred to the same way we'd refer to it.

from the looks of it, the many religious cults that used psychedelics as part of their rituals didn't think of them as drugs in the sense we do - they considered them part of their rituals, and that was that.

however, if you look at the rites and rituals of many prechristian pagan groups or more pagan-like christian groups (essenes, gnostics), you'll find parallels with how they describe their rituals and mushroom or peyote ceremonies that you can still see in modern times.

so, to answer your question, alot - but only if you're not looking for "we ate those mushrooms and tripped our balls off," because they didn't talk about it like that.

http://www.metahistory.org/lexicon_W.php
read some wasson

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 1:00 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2005 12:58:55 PM

There's a lot more to religion than drug abuse.

I think most reasonable people would agree.

7/22/2005 12:59:49 PM

oh, there's plenty more than "drug abuse," like responsibly including entheogens into your diet in sacred rituals.

saying that they abused those substances is like saying that communion wine being taken is "alcohol abuse," which it clearly isn't

also, no, religion isn't JUST stemming from those substances being used in the ancient world. There's alot more to it than that, like wanting to find a purpose in the universe, trying to find your place, etc. However, those plants pushed forward those people into a realm that included rituals surrounding entheogenic plants... then the plants were slowly phased out, either due to social stigma or just lack of availability, and replaced with more docile options: wine and bread, etc

I wouldn't claim that religion exists because of psychedelics. I just think that alot of the ideas and cult-like behaviors associated with modern religions stem from the mushroom rituals that have now been forgotten

seriously, check out videos of a native american mushroom ritual and tell me you don't see the similarities between a wine sacrament and a mushroom sacrament

also, "reasonable people" say alot of things. that doesn't make 'em right



[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 1:05 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 1:05 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2005 1:04:19 PM

It probably has more to do with our need to rationalize and classify phenomena.

Not to downplay drug use in ceremonies, but I don't think somebody hit the cheeba one day and decided there was a god. The idea was probably formulated more due to our nature than drugs.

Edit:

OH okay, gotcha. I was mixing your argument with hempster's. My fault. I actually agree with you, haha.

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 1:09 PM. Reason : ........]

7/22/2005 1:08:09 PM

yeah. that's basically because i kick ass

7/22/2005 1:10:08 PM

hempster's stance basically boils down to justifying drug use, AS USUAL.

7/22/2005 1:12:25 PM

they come from mushrooms and other hallucinogens.

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 1:46 PM. Reason : ^he's right. ]

7/22/2005 1:45:25 PM

I'm not saying that psychodelics didn't create a few religions or get incorporated into religion, I'm just saying that it is highly unlikely that the first religions stemmed from drug use. It is even more unlikely that all religion stems from drug use. Most likely there is an element in our evolution that has caused us to create and believe irrational answers, and most likely it happened well before humans even fully came about.

7/22/2005 1:55:53 PM

eah, and as I explained, I'm not saying that either.

if that's what hempster's saying, I disagree.

7/22/2005 2:09:53 PM

It seemed kind of implied in the discussion, as we were talking about the origin of religion and drugs suddenly comes up. But sorry to misrepresent your arguement.

7/22/2005 2:22:14 PM

nah i was just commenting that hempster's source was pretty good, and saying that I think it makes good points as to the origins of alot of religious ceremonies and ideas, but not religion itself.

7/22/2005 2:23:31 PM

I agree that drugs certainly played a role in some religions, but the notion that use of hallucinogens lead to the creation of all religion and sped the evolution of man is absurd.

7/22/2005 2:35:46 PM

^just over 100 years ago, the idea that everything was made up of tiny microscopic "atoms" was considered absurd. A few hundred years before that, the idea that the Earth was round was considered absurd. etc, etc. stfu.

Read what I said.

Quote :

"Not only religion, but language and logic as well all arose as a result of[they arose as a result of other things as well] the consumption of mind-altering plants and fungi by humans and pre-humans. (although it wasn’t that simple…..)"

McDanger accuses me of saying something I clearly didn't say. He must think he has a crystal ball or something......I respond:

Quote :

"I did not express, nor mean to imply that the use of mind-altering substances/drugs in human pre-history, even if it resulted in modern language and religion, in any way justifies the continued use of these substances today. That is an entirely different issue."

I don't know where you got "Drug use is legitimate." or "Drug use and only drug use is the clear and direct cause of all religion; there were no other variables. Period." Where did I say that?

McDanger, with all due respect, you need to STFU--you fucking h8t0r. Maybe, by putting words in my mouth, it's just easier for you to argue with me. Give it a rest. Why don’t you (and Mr.Joshua,) actually read the book? Oh wait, I forgot—your mind is already made up—you wouldn’t want to challenge your own opinions, now would you?—you might learn that you were wrong! OMF NO!!!!!

DirtyGreek and others in this thread have expanded on the one vague point I made. I agree with DirtyGreek that the subject is anything but simple--he has obviously read the book and knows what the fuck he's talking about.

7/22/2005 2:47:23 PM

Quote :

"just over 100 years ago, the idea that everything was made up of tiny microscopic "atoms" was considered absurd. A few hundred years before that, the idea that the Earth was round was considered absurd. etc, etc. stfu."

I love it when people point that out as if their ideas have equal merit.

Those ideas had scientific proof. As soon as we see some compelling evidence (not speculation) maybe the world will respect this theory. It doesn't help that the person arguing for this theory is named "hempster" and prattles on nonstop about how great weed is.

Quote :

"I don't know where you got "Drug use is legitimate." or "Drug use and only drug use is the clear and direct cause of all religion; there were no other variables. Period." Where did I say that?"

My bad. I just assumed that because your sn is Hempster and thats the point of every single post that you have ever made.

Quote :

"Oh wait, I forgot—your mind is already made up—you wouldn’t want to challenge your own opinions, now would you?—you might learn that you were wrong!"

Ah yes, this is the part where you call everyone else close minded because they don't agree with you. How dare anyone have an opinion different than yours.

Here is your argument:

Quote :

"Not only religion, but language and logic as well all arose as a result of the consumption of mind-altering plants and fungi by humans and pre-humans. (although it wasn’t that simple…..) Sorry, I know this may disappoint many of you, but it’s the truth. Deal with it."

I actually did consider it, but you didn't make a compelling case at all. Then you immediately became hostile to anyone who questioned your notion of religion. Just wake up to the fact that you suck at intelligent discussion.

[Edited on July 22, 2005 at 3:11 PM. Reason : .]

7/22/2005 3:02:00 PM

hempster -- seriously, man. Religions, by and far, didn't arise from drug use. We all know what your motive is for trying to illustrate that they are. It's already been pretty well-illustrated that there are brain pathways and circuitry for this kind of thinking, and it's evolutionarily important.

I don't disagree with drug use, either. Just stop trying to make it sound so damn profound, there are better routes to a good legalization argument.

7/22/2005 4:13:42 PM

Quote :

"McDanger: It's already been pretty well-illustrated that there are brain pathways and circuitry for this kind of thinking, and it's evolutionarily important."

Do you mean for believers, or for those whose experiences form the basis of religions?

7/22/2005 4:41:47 PM

hempster, an interesting idea. but i don't think i'll hold my breath on that one. if that book is at the library i'll check it out.

--

A lot of people mentioned the possibility that people want 1) meaning in their lives 2) a sense of security that they will live on (or at least be at peace) after they die.

I got two complaints with this argument. First, it assumes that people are stupid enough to imagine an afterlife/spirtual world and think that it's true and that others are gullible enough to believe the people that imagine such things. Not a very convincing view of the way people think (do you think you yourself is that stupid or gullible?).

But second, it seems to ignore religous experiences outside of Christianity. Many religons don't have an afterlife, don't provide meaning to life, and don't provide any sense of security. For example, the ancient Mesopitamian religons portrayed humanity as being created as an after thought after a great war between the Gods (our lives are unimportant), that we are subject the changing whims of the Gods (no security), and that we are not garunteed life or peace after death. Ever read the Epic of Gilgamesh? The reason he sought the key to immortality was because his friend told him how horrible death would be (our arms become flightless wings and we eat dirt in the dark).

So, I think we need to come up with another theory for how Religons began. I recomend remembering that not all religons are just watered down versions of Christianity.

7/22/2005 5:18:25 PM

A big part of early religions was the desire people had to personify seemingly random events in their lives. Thats why there were ocean gods, war gods, crop gods, weather gods, etc.

7/22/2005 5:23:47 PM

^^ummm, it thought someone already made the point that there was a progression of god types. early gods were not like the later gods. Mesopotamian(sp?) gods would likely fall into the category of earlier gods. thus, they would be different than the Christian god.

Quote :

"the idea that the Earth was round was considered absurd."

the idea that people once thought the earth was flat is also absurd. but keep saying its true, it only makes you sound smarter!

Quote :

"First, it assumes that people are stupid enough to imagine an afterlife/spirtual world and think that it's true and that others are gullible enough to believe the people that imagine such things."

its not so mach a matter of people being gullible and stupid. rather, its a matter of enough of a religion being "proven true" to a person in order for him to accept that the rest is true. How much needs to be proven to a person varies from one person to another, but once the threshold of proof is crossed, then the person will be way more willing to accept things that on the surface appear less than true.

Thats why its stupid for anyone to call any religious belief irrational or illogical, as both rationality and logic are rather subjective...

7/22/2005 7:25:31 PM