to enforce it?

For example, should the police be able to speed to catch speeders?

If they should, then why? Isn't the act in itself the thing we're trying to prevent?

I'm looking for moral arguments here, I understand the practical nature of the problem (you can't catch speeders unless you're willing to chase 'em down).

8/1/2005 6:05:39 PM

it depends on what you mean by "break the law"

8/1/2005 6:07:24 PM

umm...if the law says don't do X, then the cops do X to prevent civillians from doing X.

8/1/2005 6:09:34 PM

fuck no the cops shouldn't be able to break the law to enforce it. well, first thing that comes to mind is entrapment with prostitution stings, but i guess there isn't too much debate on that point.

but on a broader perspective, what is the ideal result that comes out of cops breaking laws to enforce them? everyone toes the line, except for the police, who shit on everyone, just to make sure they keep it together. you could get to the point where the police monopolize crime... and the free market will prevail, so that situation would bring anarchy.

discuss

8/1/2005 6:09:59 PM

Quote :

"umm...if the law says don't do X, then the cops do X to prevent civillians from doing X."

well then no

but its not that simple for me, i think its ok in some situations

8/1/2005 6:11:20 PM

Quote :

"should the police be able to speed to catch speeders? "

Dude...They have like weeks of driver training and some of the sweetest handling cars on the road. They can do it safely unlike you and I.

But really...It's not that I care about them speeding. I just don't believe in the current highway speed limits.

8/1/2005 6:13:49 PM

no. the cops should never be allowed to break the law in order to enforce it.

in most cases where one could rationally assume that the popo are breaking the law, the popo actually isn't. Take speeding for instance. I am almost 100% certain that the law forbidding speeding does not do so blanketly. Rather, it forbids going over the speed limit for unauthorized people. There would also likely be a list of cases which would describe who is authorized, and at what time said person would be authorized. In such a scenario, the policeman chasing the speeder would not be breaking the law, as the law actually allows the policeman to speed.

Are you instead meaning "should the popo be allowed to do acts which are normally illicit for the average citizen in order to enforce the law?" If so, my response would be that such a question should be handled on a case by case basis, as one could easily see how a blanket yes or no answer could be bad.

8/1/2005 6:17:44 PM

Ummm...yeah...I don't think he meant "illegal" in a technical sense.

8/1/2005 6:20:27 PM

if thats the case, then he shouldn't have said "break the law"... its generally not a good practice to use different definitions than the commonly used ones for words or phrases when starting a public discussion... thus, the reason I gave both responses and will allow him to further explain what he means.

Socks, although I generally differ with him on most opinions, is not usually one to engage in such intentional chicanery

8/1/2005 6:27:15 PM

Quote :

"They can do it safely unlike you and I."

i didn't realize when i go 63 in a 55 i was being "unsafe"

8/1/2005 7:11:09 PM

Speeding doesn't kill people, stoping does. Police have to be able to respond to calls in a hurry and save lives. They can speed but the are liable if people get hurt because of an officers actions, i.e. Officer hits another car while driving fast. But there are precautions taking to prevent accidents like this, lights, sirens, "move over" laws, EVOC, etc.

Police speed on high ways so they can cover more ground, its called "patrol speed." You've all seen it on the beltline, one cop is driving and there is like 10 cars around him because they don't want to pass him. How is an officer suppose to catch speeders if he just sits at the speed limit. If he moves faster then the flow of traffic he can cover more cars.

8/1/2005 7:56:49 PM

Quote :

"They have like weeks of driver training and some of the sweetest handling cars on the road. They can do it safely unlike you and I."

what the fuck ever...Ford Crown Victoria, one of the sweetest handling cars on the road? i think not...and yeah, they're trained more than your average sorority girl, but we're not talking about Michael Schumacher, here.

I'm probably a better driver than the vast majority of cops, and either of my modded-to-death sports cars (turbo Miata on Tokico/KYB suspension with 4 piston Wilwood brakes or supercharged S2000 with 225/40-18 front and 255/35-18 rear tires) would accelerate, turn, or brake CIRCLES around a police car. furthermore, if i DID hit somebody, it would be with 2200 or 2800 lbs of car, instead of 4500.

yet, i get the tickets. no problem...it's stupid and gay, but i just look at it as a supplemental usage tax (i.e., i'm a premium member of the public roads system. i get to drive fast for an additional fee). let's just not pretend that speeding tickets are about safety instead of revenue, or pretend that a cop in a Crown Vic is more capable of hauling ass than a skilled driver in a high performance sports car.

8/1/2005 8:37:48 PM

I don't think people mind their ambulance speeding. Emergencies are important. I don't law enforcement and other civil service jobs having special case laws as long as they are regulated by the choice of the people (which they are). Cops do get in trouble for excessive/unnecessary speeding, believe it or not.

8/1/2005 8:53:14 PM

^ but again, I'll bet there are laws or regulations that determine when speed is excessive. Thus, even then, the cop, as long as he is following the regulations, is following the law.

8/1/2005 9:09:53 PM

^^^Sorry Duke, you may feel like you are better driver then a police officers but you haven't spent weeks in EVOC training where you practice life or death snap judgements in a car and how to handle a car at high speeds. Like I've said before, most anyone can drive fast but its snap judgements, quick stops are life/death man lane changes that kill people.

8/1/2005 10:31:17 PM

Quote :

"let's just not pretend that speeding tickets are about safety instead of revenue"

And let's not pretend that people aren't much more likely to be killed in an accident if they are speeding either. Speeding tickets are in place for a reason, and you are putting others at risk if you drive like an idiot.

Additionally, I think the whole speeding arguement is moot as a cop probably doesn't have to speed to catch someone who is speeding, they just need to flip on their lights.

8/1/2005 10:36:39 PM

Should the police induce a speed chase in an attempt to recover a stolen car?

8/1/2005 10:39:29 PM

Quote :

"a cop probably doesn't have to speed to catch someone who is speeding, they just need to flip on their lights."

Yes, because most speeders are caught by speeding past a police car going the same way. </sarcasm>

In every instance of being pulled over that I have heard about the cop was either stopped on the side of the road, going the other way, or just getting on the highway. Either way, the cop was way back there and the only way for him to pull the perp over was to catch him.

8/1/2005 11:17:42 PM

Quote :

"what the fuck ever...Ford Crown Victoria, one of the sweetest handling cars on the road? i think not...and yeah, they're trained more than your average sorority girl, but we're not talking about Michael Schumacher, here."

I guess my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough Duke.

8/2/2005 12:37:37 AM

Quote :

"In every instance of being pulled over that I have heard about the cop was either stopped on the side of the road, going the other way, or just getting on the highway. Either way, the cop was way back there and the only way for him to pull the perp over was to catch him."

eh I was just refering to the time I was pulled over.

8/2/2005 12:39:05 AM

Quote :

"you are putting others at risk if you drive like an idiot. "

driving like an idiot is not the same thing as exceeding the speed limit. driving like an idiot is bad.

Quote :

"Sorry Duke, you may feel like you are better driver then a police officers but you haven't spent weeks in EVOC training where you practice life or death snap judgements in a car and how to handle a car at high speeds. Like I've said before, most anyone can drive fast but its snap judgements, quick stops are life/death man lane changes that kill people. "

i have to disagree. i'll wager that i know so much more about vehicle dynamics than your average cop, and have probably spent more time handling vehicles at or near their limits that it more than evens out. furthermore, snap judgements don't have to be learned in the classroom. for example, i can tell that i've gotten MUCH better as a car driver as a result of all the miles i've ridden on sportbikes. a little bit of it is reflexes and stuff (a sportbike can make things happen a LOT quicker than a car...even a fast car), but you a lot of it is making you really good at observing EVERYTHING, predicting what other people are gonna do, thinking 3 steps ahead, and reacting quickly.

and if you just want to measure vehicle control, i'll be more than happy to run a randomly selected cop around the road course circuit of your choice. technically, for the purposes of this argument, i should drive my S2000 and he should drive the Vic, but i'll be nice and agree to have us both drive the same car (neither S2000 or Vic, to eliminate familiarity advantage. if the cop can average quicker laps than me, i'll concede the point).

Quote :

"eh I was just refering to the time I was pulled over. "

i've probably been pulled like 40 times, and i'd guess that the cop had to speed at least half of those times.

[Edited on August 2, 2005 at 1:53 AM. Reason : asdf]

8/2/2005 1:50:17 AM

I'd like for pigs to turn their bluelights on when they speed in the right (not left) fucking lane.

8/2/2005 2:29:13 AM

They usually speed in the left lane so slower traffic doesn't have to merge into faster traffic.

^^Duke, you haven't had the practice like they have, period. When is the last time you went out on the beltline and practiced crash avoidance techniques or turned the TKE parking lot into a skid pad and worked some drills in there?

8/2/2005 8:13:32 AM

^ you're a goddamned idiot if you think the vast majority of police officers are expert drivers

8/2/2005 8:40:19 AM

regardless of training, as proven many times over, cops endanger other drivers, as well as the suspect, by pursuing a high speed chase.

i mean google police high speed chase and see how much you get.

all the chase does is escalate the conflict. if the suspects dont pull over for the blue lights, chances are they arent gonna care about hitting other vehicles, or opening fire. abandoning the chase may lose a stolen vehicle for the time being, but its better than endangering or killing innocent motorists.

8/2/2005 8:52:39 AM

morals get in the way of pragmatism alot

8/2/2005 8:59:57 AM

Perhaps I can fix this discussion.
Police Officers and EMS are specifically exempt from the law. Hence, they are not breaking the law when they speed. So, no, police should not be able to break the law for any reason, but the legislature is obviously able to exempt them from laws which hamper their ability to perform their duties.

8/2/2005 9:11:59 AM

I have some distant family members that are brothers in Forsyth County. One is a Sheriff's Deputy. He got involved in a high speed chase near W-S one time and ended up flipping his patrol car in the sheriff's front yard. Needless to say he was reprimanded. They took him off patrol for a long time and made him do desk work unti he passed a long series of driving courses.

My point is, even though LEOs speed, they aren't exempt for the results of their actions and will be punished if they harm life or property during a high speed chase.

8/2/2005 10:19:00 AM

arent exempt for the results of their actions, huh?

did he fix the car out of his pocket or off of his insurance?
did he get a ticket for reckless endangerment, with a handfull of other shit tacked on?

because thats what anyone else's consequences would have been...

8/2/2005 11:10:24 AM

^ Well that's like saying that, for instance, I make a mistake at my work that cost the company $1000. It doesn't come out of my paycheck and I'm not fired because of it, but my boss has a little talk with me and maybe I don't get a big raise. It's part of the job, the department knows that there are going to be losses like this and they don't make the employee pay out of pocket for the damages.

8/2/2005 11:34:21 AM

except that it was more like a 30,000 mistake

and it doesnt cost the "company" (govt), it costs the taxpayers.

if i lost my company 1000, im pretty sure they would come looking for it, or there would be consequences of some sort.

8/2/2005 12:55:31 PM

With regards to driving better than the cops and what not, I won't deny that there are many individuals who could probably handle their cars better at high speeds compared to your rank and file patrol officers. Nevertheless, you are still a danger on the road not because you can't drive but because the people around you may not be able to react properly to someone driving very fest. The same applies to the police. However, when the police are speeding, they are doing so in service of the public; they are taking a risky action to apprehend an even greater threat to society. Unfortunately, you or I don't have the same reason 99% of the time we speed (and for those few truly legitimate reasons, such as medical emergencies and whatnot, I have yet to see an officer penalize someone for it; if anything, they'll provide escort if they know what's going on).

My two cents.

8/2/2005 1:18:09 PM

Quote :

"driving like an idiot is not the same thing as exceeding the speed limit. driving like an idiot is bad."

Speeding is driving like an idiot. When you speed you are putting your life and the life of every driver around you at risk. First off, wrecks happen, you can be the best driver in the world and not avoid some wrecks. Secondly, the faster you are going when you wreck the greater chance you have of being killed and killing the person you wreck with.

Speeding is dangerous.

Quote :

"i've probably been pulled like 40 times, and i'd guess that the cop had to speed at least half of those times."

Then you are an idiot for driving like that. And you are also a huge ass for putting my life at risk just because you like to drive fast.

Quote :

"regardless of training, as proven many times over, cops endanger other drivers, as well as the suspect, by pursuing a high speed chase."

What's the other option? Let them go? Abolish all law and allow the land to drift into chaos? I think the police do a pretty good job of minimizing the dangers, well the best that they are able to do.

Quote :

"all the chase does is escalate the conflict."

Guns also escalate conflict and they endanger the lives of civilians, perhaps we should equip all our police officers with Super Soakers.

8/2/2005 1:33:24 PM

Quote :

"What's the other option? Let them go?"

nope. you already got the make, model, plate, vin, owner, etc. go to their registered address and apprehend them. it's enough for a redlight ticket, it should be enough for a speeding ticket.

now if they just robbed a bank or killed a judge, by all means. but that story about the biker going 125 or so, and starting a chase requiring use of multiple cars and a helicopter, is fucking ridiculous.

Quote :

"Guns also escalate conflict"

nope, they offer means of resolution, and protection. if a cop sees a shoplifter, he doesnt go waving his gun and firing randomly.

[Edited on August 2, 2005 at 1:45 PM. Reason : gun]

8/2/2005 1:44:18 PM

If the city council doesn't want police officers to engage in high speed persuits, they can make it illegal for them to do so.

Police officers have statutes to follow, much like rules of engagement which were written and voted upon by the local democratically elected representatives. The rules often provide ample lee-way for the officers judgement. An obvious example is when a cop pulls you over he still has leeway on whether or not to issue you a ticket, the law gives him that discretion.

So give up on this thread, the question is irrelevant. No government is (knowingly) letting any police officers break the law, they are simply being provided loop-holes in the name of justice.

8/2/2005 1:49:44 PM

Quote :

"nope. you already got the make, model, plate, vin, owner, etc. go to their registered address and apprehend them."

hell all they have to do is jump in a car to get you to pussy out

Quote :

"nope, they offer means of resolution, and protection."

Perhaps, but they DO escalte conflict. You can't really have a gunfight unless both parties have a gun. I think you see the point though, the police have to have some way to apprehend people who become beligerent, otherwise no one would listen to them.

8/2/2005 1:51:40 PM

Quote :

"Nevertheless, you are still a danger on the road not because you can't drive but because the people around you may not be able to react properly to someone driving very fest. "

i don't drive fast around other people. 10, maybe 20 mph (and only then when traffic is going close to that speed) at most over the limit when other people are nearby.

Quote :

"Then you are an idiot for driving like that. And you are also a huge ass for putting my life at risk just because you like to drive fast. "

i've had zero car wrecks related to speed (and the car wrecks i have had were due to other people fucking stuff up...the only collision i've had at more than parking lot speed was because someone stopped a pickup truck in the middle of the road just over the crest of a hill on wet pavement), and the motorcycle wrecks i've had were all single vehicle accidents, away from traffic.

Quote :

"Speeding is driving like an idiot. When you speed you are putting your life and the life of every driver around you at risk. First off, wrecks happen, you can be the best driver in the world and not avoid some wrecks. Secondly, the faster you are going when you wreck the greater chance you have of being killed and killing the person you wreck with. Speeding is dangerous. "

well, we could make the speed limits 5mph on the interstates, and nobody would ever die in a car wreck. furthermore, i guarantee you that i'm 10x less of a risk to you at 15 mph over the speed than 95% of the people on the road are at the speed limit.



and Restricted, when was the last time you saw a cop clicking off perfectly matched heel & toe downshifts, braking into a corner, nailing the apex, and accelerating out while setting himself up on a proper line for the next corner? (all in areas where i can clearly see that there's nobody around that i could possibly hit, and only pushing to the absolute limits of adhesion when i have room to recover if i overcook the corner)? what about the zillions of people who regularly compete in SOLO I and SOLO II racing (SOLO I being time trials around a road course, SOLO II being time trails around a cone course in a parking lot) or actual whee-to-wheel racing?

this argument that there aren't a number of people on the road who are FAR AND AWAY better drivers than the vast majority of cops is ludicrous, and my offer to settle it on a racetrack still stands.

___________________________

all of that said, i think that there are certainly times when cops need to speed to pull people over. i just maintain that speeding tickets are more about revenue than safety, and there are tons of other things that people do far more dangerous than speeding that cops overlook, simply because writing speeding tickets is the status quo.

[Edited on August 2, 2005 at 4:49 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/2/2005 4:47:30 PM

ATTN: EVERYONE IS THIS THREAD....SPEEDING DOESN'T KILL

8/2/2005 4:55:17 PM

Quote :

"i've had zero car wrecks related to speed"

And I've never gotten cancer from smoking.

Quote :

"and the car wrecks i have had were due to other people fucking stuff up...the only collision i've had at more than parking lot speed was because someone stopped a pickup truck in the middle of the road just over the crest of a hill on wet pavement"

And even though it wasn't your fault you still could have died if you were going fast.

Quote :

"furthermore, i guarantee you that i'm 10x less of a risk to you at 15 mph over the speed than 95% of the people on the road are at the speed limit."

Does that justify you putting my life unneccesarily at risk? Some people not being able to drive well doesn't justify you driving as fast as you want. You do put peoples lives in danger when you speed, don't imagine you don't.

8/2/2005 4:59:30 PM

i put people's lives in danger when i don't speed. so do you.

you can die in a 65 mph crash, too. like i said, if we were in the risk eliminating business, we'd govern all cars to a top speed of 5 mph, mandate full cages and 5 point harnesses, and build the rest of the car out of rubber.

but we're not in that business. we're in the risk managing business, which i do perfectly well. furthermore, speed limits are somewhat arbitrary and not on pace with today's technology. the 55 mph restriction was originally enacted as a gas-saving measure during the gas crunch a few decades back. furthermore, a 1970 Buick and a 2005 Honda are not even remotely comparable from safety, handling, or braking standpoints. finally, if it's all about safety, how come i get a ticket for 11 over in one of the most modern, capable sports cars ever built, but some housewife who doesn't know jack shit about about driving can go by the cops all day at 10 over in an Expedition? now, i know the cop can't detect our respective driving abilities, but how much difference does 1 mph make?

if it was all about safety, cops would write you tickets for doing stupid shit in your vehicle that endangered people, not when you broke the magic number.

Quote :

"And even though it wasn't your fault you still could have died if you were going fast. "

no shit, which is why i wasn't hauling ass in those instances.



and again, tickets will never cause me to change my driving habits. i just look at it as a premium membership to the road system.

[Edited on August 2, 2005 at 5:29 PM. Reason : asdf]

8/2/2005 5:28:23 PM

Quote :

"tickets will never cause me to change my driving habits. i just look at it as a premium membership to the road system."

Pure Gold hahahah

8/2/2005 5:32:02 PM

Quote :

"nope. you already got the make, model, plate, vin, owner, etc. go to their registered address and apprehend them. it's enough for a redlight ticket, it should be enough for a speeding ticket."

Exactly! They can also arrest them in their home for failure to comply and resisting arrest, as well as speeding. Arrest them at 4am.
[insert law and order DUN DUN sound here]

[Edited on August 2, 2005 at 5:40 PM. Reason : []]

8/2/2005 5:40:17 PM

Quote :

"i put people's lives in danger when i don't speed. so do you."

But by speeding you add an UNNECCESARY risk.

Quote :

"furthermore, speed limits are somewhat arbitrary and not on pace with today's technology."

Cars are still just as deadly in high speed collisions. Secondly, people still drive cars 30 years old.

Quote :

"the 55 mph restriction was originally enacted as a gas-saving measure during the gas crunch a few decades back."

And all the advertising of "speed kills" and such?

Quote :

"a 1970 Buick and a 2005 Honda are not even remotely comparable from safety, handling, or braking standpoints"

This doesn't justify YOU putting THEIR lives at an unneccesarily high level of risk.

Quote :

"if it's all about safety, how come i get a ticket for 11 over in one of the most modern, capable sports cars ever built, but some housewife who doesn't know jack shit about about driving can go by the cops all day at 10 over in an Expedition?"

Because the cop can't detect your respective driving abilities. You can't try and argue down a ticket because you can drive well, the same laws apply to everyone. Secondly, this STILL doesn't give you the right to put other peoples lives at an unneccesary level or risk.

Quote :

"if it was all about safety, cops would write you tickets for doing stupid shit in your vehicle that endangered people"

They do.

Quote :

"and again, tickets will never cause me to change my driving habits. i just look at it as a premium membership to the road system."

Then you should by all means continue to speed even more and see if you don't lose your license. Then you can explain to the cop how you have a right to go as fast as you want.

8/2/2005 5:59:02 PM