Okay, this argument has always cracked me up. It's a truth that a vast majority of professors (outside of Economics) are liberal. To me, it doesn't come as a shock that educated people also tend to be liberals; this makes sense.

Anyway, my argument is simple:

Where are these qualified, Ph.D.-holding conservatives lining up to teach? Do people really believe that there's this wealth of well-educated conservatives looking to both work harder and earn less than before?

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 6:32 PM. Reason : TYPOS GALORE!]

9/13/2005 6:31:52 PM

There's always that fucking blowhard at UNC-W who likes to run his mouth.

9/13/2005 6:33:31 PM

it is possible to both hold an opinion and not let that opinion seep into what should be an objective class. The number of conservative professors has little to do w/ that... nice strawman, though.

9/13/2005 6:39:02 PM

Quote :

"To me, it doesn't come as a shock that educated people also tend to be liberals; this makes sense. "

This line cracks me up. Mostly because its bullshit, but also because of the pretentiousness of the statement. You're probably one of those people that believed the bullshit chain-mail about how blue states have higher average IQ's than red states.

Highly educated people in fields such as liberal arts and the pseudo-sciences of the university system tend to be liberals. Highly educated people in the business world tend to be conservatives.

Most educators I've met seem to have a liberal slant based on their idealistic views in life. The idea of government helping people and solving all the problems of society seems to mesh well with their personal philosophies. They also feel underpaid and under appreciated as a whole, and education spending has usually been a priority for the liberals.

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 6:45 PM. Reason : !]

9/13/2005 6:44:01 PM

^Fuel, you forgot a whole bunch of disciplines like engineering, design, natural sciences, physical sciences, enviornmental sciences, education, etc...DON'T SPLIT THE COLLEGE WORLD INTO LIBERAL ARTS AND BUSINESS...THERE'S A LOT MORE TO IT THAN THAT. ARE YOU REALLY WILLING TO BET THAT THERE ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE PHDS THAN LIBERAL PHDS?

Quote :

"it is possible to both hold an opinion and not let that opinion seep into what should be an objective class. The number of conservative professors has little to do w/ that... nice strawman, though."

Give me an example of this "objective class" situation.

I'VE ALWAYS FELT THAT HEARING AN OPINION ON SOMETHING IS A GOOD THING, ESPECIALLY IN COLLEGE. WE'RE CERTAINLY MATURE ENOUGH TO LISTEN TO LECTURE AND RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE, RIGHT? BTW, THE NUMBER OF CONSERVATIVE PROFESSORS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT. IF THERE WERE MORE CONSERVATIVE PROFESSORS, WE MIGHT GET TO HEAR THEIR OPINIONS, TOO, WHICH WOULD ALSO BE BENEFICIAL.

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 6:53 PM. Reason : sss]

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 6:54 PM. Reason : sss]

9/13/2005 6:49:14 PM

^ hey, hearing an opinion is great, I'll give you that. But when every opinion is liberal, don't you think that is "biased?" or, when every discussion is moderated by a liberal, don't you think thats biased? especially when you get GRADED on said discussion. by said liberal.

and again, it is possible to hold an opinion and moderate a discussion fairly. However, when you have people of the same political beliefs dominating the moderation, then the summation of those who don't moderate fairly ends up being biased towards the aforementioned political beliefs. And AGAIN, the number of conservatives in the profession shouldn't matter. Teachers should be taught how to moderate and teach in an unbiased manner.

thats akin to saying "this textbook is biased by white thinking. Clearly we need more pictures of black people to get rid of the bias." OR, you could just make sure that whoever wrote the damned book didn't do so w/ bias.

IF you want to try to argue that only liberals are smart, then I'll refer you to the post above while also saying get over yourself.

9/13/2005 6:52:17 PM

^Should they blatantly disregard what they feel, and sometimes KNOW, to be true in order to avoid seeming biased?

Again, give me an example of a classroom situation where this "bias" stuff has become an issue.

9/13/2005 6:55:43 PM

^ fact is not biased. so your question is moot.

oh, I don't know, maybe when I had a teacher who said "Bill Clinton scares me" in my 7th grade social studies class. I know, I know, thats conservative opinion, the point still remains. it happens. I've also been apprised of situations in class where the teacher went on a long ass rant about how evil dubya is or how dubya's policy on such and such is stupid.

The teacher can have the opinion, but the teacher saying "dubya is evil" is never right. AND, its not punished if it happens. If conservative-opinion or errors of a conservative nature happen in the classroom, it gets punished HARSHLY. Just witness the class that had a section that stated that slaves enjoyed being slaves. Most people would argue that this statement shows a "conservative bias." But on the contrary, when a teacher called a student a racist and a bigot and a chauvinist, what happened? Most people would agree that such an outburst would occur from a liberal and not a conservative.

And, how punishment is meted out or not is a huge indicator of bias.

9/13/2005 6:58:13 PM

So no classroom example of liberal bias?

9/13/2005 7:00:27 PM

I'm a conservative getting a PhD at NCSU. This is a tiresome argument.

Buncha liberals in academe? - Welcome to reality.
Does it fucking matter 99.94% of the time. Fuck no.

Is the army conservative? Yep.
How about Fortune 500 boardrooms? - Yep.

It's the environment, and to be expected. I honestly think that people get their panties in a wad when they don't hear what they want to hear. Are there occasional problems? Sure, just like any industry. My department's pretty diverse, and no one gives a shit about the politics - its a good thing to behold.

You want more conservatives in the academy? Sack up and go to school for 9 years. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.

9/13/2005 7:04:24 PM

how about my 11th grade english teacher who would deduct points if she didn't agree with your THESIS. not if you didn't provide supporting details or if you had bad grammar, but rather that your thesis went against her ideology. is that good enough for you?

9/13/2005 7:04:33 PM

Did you take that shit to the school board or did you just whine like a bitch?

9/13/2005 7:05:29 PM

nope. I just made sure she agreed with my thesis before I wrote the paper.

9/13/2005 7:07:10 PM

Quote :

"you forgot a whole bunch of disciplines like engineering, design, natural sciences, physical sciences, enviornmental sciences, education"

Its the liberal arts and business classes where the professors love to expound on their political philosophies and encourage dialogue within the classroom. The majority of disciplines quoted really have nothing to do with this topic.

Quote :

"ARE YOU REALLY WILLING TO BET THAT THERE ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE PHDS THAN LIBERAL PHDS?"

I would bet that the percentages of liberals and conservatives with post-graduate degrees is pretty comparable.

9/13/2005 7:08:45 PM

I'd take that bet, but I'm not sure where to get the info. This pops up in The Chronicle of Higher Education every once in awhile. I'll see if we've got a copy with more info.

9/13/2005 7:13:28 PM

HEY IF I TYPE LIKE THIS DOES IT MAKE MY SHITTY GENERALIZATIONS BETTER?

9/13/2005 7:24:27 PM

What's that saying again?

Those who can, do....

9/13/2005 8:07:20 PM

Quote :

"Its the liberal arts and business classes where the professors love to expound on their political philosophies and encourage dialogue within the classroom. The majority of disciplines quoted really have nothing to do with this topic."

In the humanity classes I've taken, the opinions of the professor seem to become part of their lesson plans.

Whereas in my other classes, political views seem to be more apparent in the methodology and policies of the class, not in the actual class content.

9/13/2005 8:07:41 PM

Quote :

"Those who can, do...."

Anyone who believes that hasn't taught.

Education is a practice, and teachers "do" it. We also happen to specialize in our subject matter.

9/13/2005 8:16:31 PM

This thread really lowered my opinion of Bridget. Usually she at least backs up her opinions with something other than all caps and a bunch of unfounded statements.

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 8:46 PM. Reason : !]

9/13/2005 8:37:21 PM

This thread is one hell of a braintrust.

9/13/2005 8:48:33 PM

Quote :

"ARE YOU REALLY WILLING TO BET THAT THERE ARE MORE CONSERVATIVE PHDS THAN LIBERAL PHDS?"

According to the Center for Political Studies at the University of Michigan, Education has the following breakdown by %:

Conservative, Moderate, Liberal
Less than High School 39 39 39
High School 43 35 35
Some College 47 27 27
Bachelor's Degree 48 21 21
Advanced Degree 42 25 25

On a related note, I have taken 4 CHASS classes, and I would say that 2 of them did have very liberal bias. I have taken one business course, and did not feel it was conservative or liberal.

Quote :

"This thread really lowered my opinion of Bridget. Usually she at least backs up her opinions with something other than all caps and a bunch of unfounded statements. "

When has she ever provided back up for her opinions? I must have missed it.

[Edited on September 13, 2005 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

9/13/2005 10:15:37 PM

we dont talk about it in engineering

opinions dont matter

facts do




I can usually note a slight bias in CHASS courses but it does not bother me. There is always some dumbshit liberal to argue with some dumb shit conservative and waste class time. Why they feel the need to voice their opinions is beyond me, i guess it comes with the feeling their opinions matter.


cheers

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 12:48 AM. Reason : .]

9/14/2005 12:47:39 AM

Quote :

"come as a shock that educated people also tend to be liberals; this makes sense. "

Made me vomit.

9/14/2005 7:54:21 AM

the truth hurts

9/14/2005 8:10:07 AM

^^ Isn't disproving that notion.

Quote :

"how about my 11th grade english teacher who would deduct points if she didn't agree with your THESIS."

I'd believe it-- because knowing you, and knowing that you were probably 5x worse at this in high school than you are now, I can understand the teacher's feelings.

There are viable theses, and there are ones created by aaronburro

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 8:17 AM. Reason : .]

9/14/2005 8:16:16 AM

Quote :

"Conservative, Moderate, Liberal Less than High School 39 39 39 High School 43 35 35 Some College 47 27 27 Bachelor's Degree 48 21 21 Advanced Degree 42 25 25"

Quote :

"the truth hurts"

indeed it does, troll

9/14/2005 8:17:01 AM

the conservatives arent satisfied with a tenured professor's salary...they go for the big bucks

9/14/2005 10:27:42 AM

I had a number of openly conservative business professors. I had a number of openly liberal business professors. I also had some that never expressed their ideological affiliations.

IMO, it doesn't matter. One of my favorite business teachers was a die-hard conservative. He knew the subject well, taught it mostly unbiased, and graded fairly.

9/14/2005 11:49:51 AM

Quote :

" we dont talk about it in engineering opinions dont matter facts do"

I occassionally here politically biased statements in engineering, but 95% of the class aren't even American citizens so it doesn't really matter.

9/14/2005 12:37:50 PM

Quote :

"I had a number of openly conservative business professors. I had a number of openly liberal business professors. I also had some that never expressed their ideological affiliations."

I call shenanagans. Four years in Management and the only vaugely political statement ever made in class was Huggard telling us that his wife could pry his gun collection from his cold, dead hands. Which could be interpreted as a conservative statement, I suppose.

9/14/2005 12:51:40 PM

that's not conservative in my opinion

its libertarian

9/14/2005 1:49:14 PM

Quote :

"According to the Center for Political Studies at the University of Michigan, Education has the following breakdown by %"

Link plz.

9/14/2005 1:51:13 PM

Quote :

"BridgetSPK Okay, this argument has always cracked me up. It's a truth that a vast majority of professors (outside of Economics) are liberal."

The majority of professors in Economics vote democrat—roughly 75%.

The issue isn’t about liberal v. conservative. It’s about basic professional standards, or a lack thereof.

An overwhelming number of computer science and mathematics professors are liberal—in fact, staunchly liberal. This does not bother me because these fields keep the overt politicking to a minimum—at least in the curricula and research. A field like woman’s studies, on the other hand, consists of little more than political drum beating. Several of the niche fields in the humanities follow along the same lines. The problem isn’t with liberals but the lax academic standards and political drum-beating that characterize—for whatever reason—several fields in the humanities.

An example of this academic unprofessionalism can be found in the field of Middle East Studies. Daniel Pipes, a research professor at Harvard, put together a nice website documenting some of the leftist crap expounded in this field: http://www.campus-watch.org/.

Quote :

"BridgetSPK Where are these qualified, Ph.D.-holding conservatives lining up to teach? Do people really believe that there's this wealth of well-educated conservatives looking to both work harder and earn less than before? "

I agree: there aren’t many conservatives lining up to teach. But again, the problem is not with the lack of conservatives, but with lax academic standards.

Moreover, the same can be said about the lack of women and minorities in sciences. For the most part, these two groups gravitate towards easier, less rigorous fields of study. Yet, the university crowd is constantly pushing to recruit both minority students and professors in technical fields.

This is especially the case in the corporate world. Relatively few blacks and females are assertive or motivated enough to take leadership roles in business. As a result, large companies have implicit hiring quotas and programs in which women are basically fast-tracked into management positions. People like BridgetSPK support these programs in the name of diversity. If a company’s management has a male to female ration of 30-to-1, then people like BridgetSPK are the first to cry foul.

Yet, oddly enough, when a sociology department has a liberal-to-conservative ratio of say 30-to-1, people like BridgetSPK dismiss it as being the natural order of things.

Funny how that works.

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 3:37 PM. Reason : edit]

9/14/2005 3:29:40 PM

Quote :

"Relatively few blacks and females are assertive or motivated enough to take leadership roles in business. "

Or that the momentum and buddy structure that gets you into coveted positions does not exist in those demographics.

I guess its all about what you want to believe.

9/14/2005 3:35:29 PM

Quote :

"I call shenanagans..."

Ok, call it, but it's true. Both Henard and Baumer both openly admitted to be Republicans (and the NC Voter Search confirms this). Hell even Baumer has it listed on his web site:

Member of the Lincoln Forum, an Assocation of Republican Attorneys in North Carolina
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~baumerdl/professional.htm

On the other side of the spectrum, Kimbrough never came out and said it, but appears to be pretty liberal and is a registered Democrat. Padilla is also a registered Democrat.

That's just in business, I won't go into classes in other departments...

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 3:41 PM. Reason : .]

9/14/2005 3:40:51 PM

Quote :

"the truth hurts"

OH FUCK YA - UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE, ECONOMIC POLICIES AND TAX LAWS THAT PUNISH SUCCESS. REALLY FUCIKING Intelligent! UBER ENLIGHTED! No wonder you fucktards win every election?!?!?!

9/14/2005 3:59:00 PM

Quote :

"Okay, this argument has always cracked me up. It's a truth that a vast majority of professors (outside of Economics) are liberal. To me, it doesn't come as a shock that educated people also tend to be liberals; this makes sense. Anyway, my argument is simple: Where are these qualified, Ph.D.-holding conservatives lining up to teach? Do people really believe that there's this wealth of well-educated conservatives looking to both work harder and earn less than before?"

Neither the topic nor your "argument" are arguments. The first is just a claim and the latter is a group of 2 points in the guise of questions that come off as perhaps being smartass and rhetorical. I suggest that you take a logic course or atleast study it on you own because your "argument" isn't put together very well and you don't support any of your claims.

I'm not sure if you are trying to discuss that some people say public Univ. systems only hire liberals (and then you're argument being that it's not so much that "they only hire liberals" but that conservatives aren't applying for the jobs) or just that most professors are liberal?

The socond I hear all the time, but I've never heard anyone say that universities themselves are only hiring liberals, but I can work with that if that's what you're claiming some people say.

Quote :

"To me, it doesn't come as a shock that educated people also tend to be liberals; this makes sense.""

By saying this you're veering the discussion away from teachers. Professors aren't the only educated people. There are a lot of said people in industry, which is going to provoke responses that don't have much to do with your specific claim and it's going to become a discussion about whether or not liberals are as smart as conservatives or vice versa.

The points which you posed in the guise of questions could have been better stated by just saying "The majority of college professors are liberal because said occupation does not appeal to conservatives. The reason probably being that they do not want to work harder with out being compensated." - If that's not what you are claiming then please correct me.

So anyhow, do you have sources for these claims or are you just basing them on your observations during classes? I could see a lot of students knowing that thier professors are either lib. or cons. in humanities courses because personal beliefs are more likely to come up but not in science, business or foreign lang. courses. There's typically not room for that sort of info. to come out through interpratation of the content in those courses. So unless they specifically come out and say something to indacte their position I wouldn't assume either way. (I agree that most teachers are probably liberal, but that doesn't change the fact that it needs to be backed up).

A teacher can certainly present material in a non-bias manner. The easiest way is to discuss both sides. And specifically from both sides. This is college (and in life in general), you have to think for yourself, not just regurgitate what some professor said in class. Realize that people have different opinions which come from their belief systems. You may not agree with them. You have to be able to seperate fact from their and your own opinion.

9/14/2005 4:09:40 PM

noone's punishing success

they're punishing greed, one of the 7 sins

its what God wants





[i don't really think that, i'm just getting a rise out of you citizens of Myopia]

9/14/2005 4:09:54 PM

^^^maybe people would take you seriously if you actually attempted to sound like an intelligent person instead of just punching buzzwords into your keyboard.

^pretty much sums up what i was going to say. greed and success are two different things. a more regulated economy can still allow for success, but looks to curb greed.



[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 4:12 PM. Reason : .]

9/14/2005 4:10:56 PM

sdfsdfsdfsdf

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 4:17 PM. Reason : sdfsdfsdf]

9/14/2005 4:12:02 PM

Quote :

" ssjamind Or that the momentum and buddy structure that gets you into coveted positions does not exist in those demographics. I guess its all about what you want to believe."

Please explain a few things to me:

You’re saying most companies are being unfair towards women and minorities. But the lack of minorities and women in leadership positions isn’t simply a problem in the US, but throughout the industrialized world—in places like France. So basically most companies in the industrialized world are unfair to women for well…the hell of it.

Secondly, it presumes that most companies are simply turning down over-qualified employees en masse for well…the hell of it. Nevermind that whole profit margin thing. We are to believe that between all the different companies and different corporate cultures, only an enlightened few are willing to promote qualified women. I guess we should ignore the fact that is a horrible way to run a business. Also, are all of the stockholders and private equity firms out there somehow oblivious to this? Or are they in on it too?

Even if this is the case, then where are all of the female entrepreneurs? After all, what is preventing them from simply starting up their own companies? Are financial intermediaries in on it too?

Finally, explain this to me. You may have heard of this nifty thing called “globalization” or as Mr. Friedman dubbed it “flat world.” In short, companies are willing to jump over cultural--, language-, and geographical hurdles in order to increase profit margins by a few points, if by that much. In other words, the decision makers in many of these companies have shown they care surprisingly little about “buddy systems” based on demography.

Yet, by the some miraculous lack of reasoning, firms in the developed world have yet to tap into an overqualified segment of the labor right under their noses—women.

Is this really what you are arguing?

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 4:42 PM. Reason : edit]

9/14/2005 4:31:14 PM

No, I am pretty much in agreement with you.


However, the converse of the notion you and I agree on does not support the argument that

"Relatively few blacks and females are assertive or motivated enough to take leadership roles in businessassertive or motivated enough to take leadership roles in business".


I'm just saying, discussing why blax and baby-factories women are not business leaders in high numbers, is an exercise in subjectivity.

9/14/2005 4:42:16 PM

Quote :

"In other words, the decision makers in many of these companies have shown they care surprisingly little about “buddy systems” based on demography. "

So the guys named Ramesh at the call centers are "business leaders" now.


I expected better from you.

9/14/2005 4:50:22 PM

Quote :

"People like BridgetSPK support these programs in the name of diversity. If a company’s management has a male to female ration of 30-to-1, then people like BridgetSPK are the first to cry foul. Yet, oddly enough, when a sociology department has a liberal-to-conservative ratio of say 30-to-1, people like BridgetSPK dismiss it as being the natural order of things. Funny how that works. "

yep.

9/14/2005 4:59:55 PM

there are few things more human than hypocrisy.

9/14/2005 5:01:32 PM

Quote :

"The majority of professors in Economics vote democrat—roughly 75%."

Source?

Quote :

"For the most part, these two groups gravitate towards easier, less rigorous fields of study."

Prove that the fields in question are "easier" and "less rigorous."

9/14/2005 5:04:01 PM

generally when i ask for sources, i never hear from people on that topic again

9/14/2005 5:07:34 PM

Yep, that is the standard.

TWW debating is a pretty rigorous field, and most users aren't up to it.

9/14/2005 5:12:22 PM

^^^well, you could look at the failure rates

ever seen an English class with with >50% Ds and Fs?


and this isn't really hard evidence, but i took a couple of history classes (including senior/graduate level), and several psychology classes (including at least one junior level). actually, i graduated with 168 credit hours...i kinda took a little of everything. no humanities course i ever took could hold a candle to ANY mechanical engineering class i took.

for what it's worth, i'm fairly well balanced across different fields, too, so i don't think it was just an issue of my capability. i got a 710/700 on the SAT in math/verbal, respectively. i know that's a half-assed measurement, but it's the best i have.

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 5:16 PM. Reason : ^depends on who you are and what you say. i hardly ever cite sources, and rarely get called out]

[Edited on September 14, 2005 at 5:18 PM. Reason : asdfasdfad]

9/14/2005 5:14:51 PM