What, are they going to make people take a test or something and be naturalized, even if they are born here?

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051103-115741-1048r.htm

Quote :

" "There is a general agreement about the fact that citizenship in this country should not be bestowed on people who are the children of folks who come into this country illegally," said Rep. Tom Tancredo, Colorado Republican, who is participating in the "unity dinners," the group of Republicans trying to find consensus on immigration. Birthright citizenship, or what critics call "anchor babies," means that any child born on U.S. soil is granted citizenship, with exceptions for foreign diplomats. That attracts illegal aliens, who have children in the United States; those children later can sponsor their parents for legal immigration. Most lawmakers had avoided the issue, fearing that change would require a constitutional amendment -- the 14th Amendment reads in part: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States." But several Republicans said recent studies suggest otherwise. "There's been recent scholarship that says we can do it by statute, and we ought to try," said Rep. Jeff Flake, Arizona Republican, who usually finds himself on the opposite side of immigration issues from Mr. Tancredo. "

11/4/2005 10:54:30 AM

does this mean i'm irish again?

11/4/2005 10:56:34 AM

sounds to me that if your parents arent here legally, then you dont get the benefits.

problem?

11/4/2005 11:16:06 AM

This.

Is.

Funny.

11/4/2005 11:16:21 AM

I think the key distinction is the children of illegal immigrants. For those who's parents migrated legally to the United States, they should be given citizenship by birth. However, if their parents are here illegally, they should not be granted citizenship. The entire "anchor baby" loophole has been exploited far too long.

I would be tempted to even expand it beyond illegals and apply it to non-permanent residents. I know in South Korea, there's a thriving business of sending expectant mothers to the United States on tourist visas so they can give birth to their children here and thus grant them protections from South Korean conscription laws as well as making it easier for them to come to the United States for college and apply for federal loans and grants.

11/4/2005 11:25:54 AM

This is a good idea. We should not reward illegal citizens with US citizenship. Ireland passed a law in the 90's revoking the citizenship of the children of illegal immigrants. This should have been done a LONG time ago.

11/4/2005 11:27:38 AM

Quote :

"those children later can sponsor their parents for legal immigration."

How? My son is an American citizen. Can he sponsor me please? I'm tired of dealing with American embassies?

This is bullshit. Having a kid with a citizenship does not give you any rights as far as legalization. We stil have to go through the process independently. The only advantage that we could think of is not having to drag the little baby to the embassy as well as not having to pay an extra $100 or whatever is the current processing fee for a visa.

11/4/2005 11:27:39 AM

fuck, you pro-created??

11/4/2005 11:29:20 AM

Have to agree with MathFreak on this one.

That and I don't see much utility in punishing a kid for the mistakes of their parents...

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 11:32 AM. Reason : ---]

11/4/2005 11:31:41 AM

exactly, it's freaking stupid.

11/4/2005 11:32:56 AM

would it not discourage the people who 'jump the fence' just to pop one out?

11/4/2005 11:35:51 AM

^
which is how many, compared to the millions who jump the fence to make $texas?

11/4/2005 11:36:45 AM

^ dont know, but this isnt the first that ive heard about the issue so its gotta be a considerable amount I would think.

11/4/2005 11:41:36 AM

It will not discourage anybody because there's no real advantage of having a kid who has a citizenship. You still have to go through the process independently, and once you get legalized al your dependants get legalized anyway. And if you get kicked out of the country, your American kid will be too for all practical purposes, cause who's gonna take care of him?

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 11:44 AM. Reason : .]

11/4/2005 11:43:34 AM

i actally agree w/ GOP members and think this should be passed

11/4/2005 11:44:29 AM

I haven't formulated an opinion on this yet. I just wanted to flip this coin:

Quote :

"That and I don't see much utility in punishing a kid for the mistakes of their parents..."

But they can receive benefits for the mistakes of their parents and that is just fine?

11/4/2005 11:56:18 AM

if they're receiving benefits, it doesn't sound like their parents made a mistake

11/4/2005 12:03:12 PM

see now THIS is an interesting issue. ive read it and thought about it...still dont know where i fall.

11/4/2005 12:03:38 PM

Quote :

"jbtilley: But they can receive benefits for the mistakes of their parents and that is just fine?"

jbtilley, meet strawman. strawman, jbtilley.

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 12:09 PM. Reason : ---]

11/4/2005 12:09:24 PM

Quote :

"But they can receive benefits for the mistakes of their parents and that is just fine?"

Again, they really cannot. When it's established that a "mistake" has occured, you can deport the parents. In which case the child will have to leave, too. S/he may come back like 18 years later but don't tell me that's your overwhelming concern.

11/4/2005 12:19:54 PM

as long as that kid pays taxes!!!!

11/4/2005 12:25:32 PM

TGD, meet . , TGD. Just trying to put a different light on it.

Seems unfair in many ways that someone can come here illegally and have their children receive legal benefits - which were obtained in an illegal manner. Compare that to people that come here legally through provided channels. They put in the work, they earn the benefit.

I still have to think about the issue. I'm sure it has greater implications than just the obvious.

Quote :

" S/he may come back like 18 years later but don't tell me that's your overwhelming concern."

I don't have an overwhelming concern. Guess you all mistook sheding a different light on an issue as an attack on your views.

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 12:29 PM. Reason : -]

11/4/2005 12:26:55 PM

I was actually thinking about this the other day ...

... and I agree with it.

If they are not here legally, their children should be either unless they naturalize.

11/4/2005 12:30:19 PM

I'm all for this law to pass. As far as I'm concerned coming to the United States specifically to give birth and make sure your child is a citizen is bullshit.

Its money out of our pockets that could be far better spent on something else.

11/4/2005 1:01:00 PM

^ How is it money out of our pockets for an illegal to have their child be born here?

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 1:11 PM. Reason : f]

11/4/2005 1:11:30 PM

^b/c then thats another citizen that has the benefit of public services and the use of everything public in the US.

are you kidding?

11/4/2005 1:14:30 PM

you realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes, also, right?

not all of them work at a small business and get paid under the table. some of them have fake SS#'s, which means the money still goes into the system to pay for their kids.

11/4/2005 1:24:50 PM

Quote :

"How is it money out of our pockets for an illegal to have their child be born here?"

Grabbed this from a site. Not sure how accurate it is:

Quote :

"In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery)."

My first thought was. What a deal! I know we paid close to 13K for a delivery a few years ago. I guess inflation + footing the bill for people that can't pay (welfare recipients as well) are to blame.

That said... It's not like taking away the citizenship bonus will prevent people from coming over to get a free delivery.

11/4/2005 1:28:42 PM

^^not all of them, and even so this law would help control immigrant more, something this country desparately needs.

^true, but the more we can stop it the better. Its one big incentive to take away

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 1:29 PM. Reason : k]

11/4/2005 1:28:55 PM

cracking down on their ability to work is the only thing that is going to stop illegal immigration.

they don't come here to have kids so they can be citizens. they come here to make money to send back to their family.

11/4/2005 1:35:07 PM

Quote :

"^b/c then thats another citizen that has the benefit of public services and the use of everything public in the US. are you kidding?"

Yeah, but if the kid is born here, and his family finds a way to stay, the kid IS going to be an American. They will probably speak english as good as their peers, and like American things and American values, and there's a good chance they grow up to be a productive member of society (hispanic kids statistically already do a bit better than blacks around here in school, IIRC). Why SHOULDN'T they get benefits their American peers have?

11/4/2005 1:39:35 PM

b/c they got here illegally.

nothing I say is gonna make sense to you if you don't understand that uncontrolled immigration is bad for this country.

11/4/2005 2:00:32 PM

^ The parents got here illegally, but current laws, the kid is here legally.

Also, the US has only been getting better for the past few decades. Poor immigrants serve a valuable role in society by doing MANY jobs very cheaply (that real Americans would complain about or be too proud to do). I don't think you realize the benefits of cheap labor. I'm not convinced that immigration is hurting the US.

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 2:08 PM. Reason : 3]

11/4/2005 2:08:11 PM

Quote :

"I don't have an overwhelming concern. Guess you all mistook sheding a different light on an issue as an attack on your views."

My views are actually the the borders need to be shut. For illegal crossers, that is. If you wanna come to this country, and there's a job waiting for you, go through a brief security check and welcome aboard.

I just hate when people refuse to address the real problem and instead divert everyone's attention to non-issues.

11/4/2005 2:23:00 PM

^well put

Quote :

"The parents got here illegally, but current laws, the kid is here legally."

Yes I know its legal. But you're kidding yourself if you can't see the loophole!

11/4/2005 2:49:36 PM

Quote :

"My views are actually the the borders need to be shut. For illegal crossers, that is. If you wanna come to this country, and there's a job waiting for you, go through a brief security check and welcome aboard."

very good point

11/4/2005 2:52:44 PM

^^ I see the loophole, I don't see how it's a problem though.

^^^ How do you check if they have a job waiting?

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 3:07 PM. Reason : ]

11/4/2005 3:06:58 PM

^Good question. Especially since unemployment is nearly always close to 5%.

11/4/2005 3:09:23 PM

Dude, how do people get H1B visas? They have a standing offer.

11/4/2005 3:12:33 PM

At what point do you say the 5% of citizens that are unemployed have had a fair crack at getting the job so we are now opening it up to foreigners?

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 3:20 PM. Reason : w]

11/4/2005 3:20:04 PM

Immediately. Being born at a particular point on the globe doesn't make you more entitled to a job than anyone else. Completely open borders are a moral thing to do but is impractical so long as the state has any sort of a welfare system. But once a person proves s/he is not gonna be a financial burder to the rest of the society, you have no legitimate reasons to keep him(her) away.

11/4/2005 3:24:30 PM

Quote :

"But once a person proves s/he is not gonna be a financial burder to the rest of the society, you have no legitimate reasons to keep him(her) away."

That's pretty much my opinion also.

11/4/2005 3:34:06 PM

^^^^ So you're saying that farmer joe looking for a temporary tobacco picker, or the Motel 6 managed by Mr. Patel should have to go through the bureaucratic process of getting official documentation for an mexican to get a job? Or are you hoping that this involved process will force the people hiring illegals to find legal workers?

I think your plan is good, but I don't see how it would change things, as far as leeches on society. There seems to be too many loopholes so that things stay the same. I could see "businesses" popping up to "legally" hire a bunch of mexicans just to get them here and do what they do now (whatever it is they are doing that people hate).

Our social and economic system though depends on leeches. America didn't become the country it is today, by NOT taking care of the poor. It's one of the reasons it's such a great place to live, because we manage our poor population fairly well. We need poor people for various tasks in society. People's hatred towards illegals (mostly targeted to the spanish kind) seems to be sourced more in cultural clashes, than any practical social or economical reasons. The money spent taking care of poor illegals is FAR less than money wasted elsewhere, but illegals garner more than their fair share of the attention. I realize this is a much bigger problem in border states though, but I don't really know too much about their issues. Here in NC, i don't see why people cry about it so much.

If someone wanted to completely shut the borders, I would support this measure, only because it would show them conclusively what a stupid thing that would be to do. A completely open border is a security time bomb, but a system that doesn't leave people stuck for years through the legal process, where if you pass a security check, you can enter would be better.

maddox has funny cartoons about this here: http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi?p=1#CLUETRAIN and here: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 3:49 PM. Reason : d]

11/4/2005 3:40:39 PM

Quote :

"I could see "businesses" popping up to "legally" hire a bunch of mexicans just to get them here and do what they do now (whatever it is they are doing that people hate)."

Well, that's how it has worked in the IT industry for the last 15 years. Google up "bodyshops". So it's not hard to predict that. As you correctly answered to yourself, no farmer will have to go through the paperwork because there will be businesses who will take care of that. If they hire an illegal worker, they should be fined.

See, it's wrong to punish someone for not being happy with the choice which is limited by the government. If on the other hand the government is concerned just with basic security of the process and hence the help is in abundance, I don't see a problem with demanding a business to hire legals and enforce it. Though clearly I don't even hope to see a reasonable immigration policy in my lifetime.

[Edited on November 4, 2005 at 4:18 PM. Reason : .]

11/4/2005 3:57:07 PM

Quote :

"Immediately. Being born at a particular point on the globe doesn't make you more entitled to a job than anyone else. Completely open borders are a moral thing to do but is impractical so long as the state has any sort of a welfare system. But once a person proves s/he is not gonna be a financial burder to the rest of the society, you have no legitimate reasons to keep him(her) away."

agree 100%

11/4/2005 4:12:51 PM