Packpride linked this article this week:

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=news&Story=7230413#previous

and it got me thinking about the recruiting around here.

Now, I know a lot of you don't like Herb, but I'm starting to think the man's a genius.

Let's go back four or five years, when we were installing the Princeton O. If we had instead gone with a Duke or UNC style of play, where are the top recruits going to go--the school that hasn't so much as won the conference since '87, or the schools that have won a national championship and competed for others very recently? So Herb puts in this unique spread offense, and all of a sudden we have a real selling point to recruits--and it nets us a brilliant baller from Harlem, a tall guy who likes to shoot the three, and three other good players.

And so he's steadily taken us back up. Now we've enrolled two straight recruiting classes of guys who are not only versatile, but that any school would be happy to have even just to play one position. And with the selling point of four straight tourney appearances culminating in a Sweet 16, now we're on target to get one of the top PGs in the class of 2007.

We've taken four big men in this class and the last one, and the reason they came here is because not only are they great in the post, but they want to--and can--do more. So Herb gets what we need, and they get what they want. A guy like Brack is the prototype for our system; he's 6'10" and (especially with the added bulk this year) would have no problem playing the 5 anywhere, but he's a good shooter too and wants the chance to show that off.

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 12:10 PM. Reason : the]

11/8/2005 12:10:35 PM

Quote :

""I took pride in just making him stay there," Robinson said. "I'm thinking, 'He might get Stackhouse. But he's going to have to sit up here.' I enjoyed that immensely. One of the legends in basketball couldn't leave as long as I was there.'" 'Les, you dumb #$%' A week later, Stackhouse took his official visit to Chapel Hill, returned home and announced his intentions to play at Carolina. "

and people get on Herb....bahahaha

11/8/2005 12:40:08 PM

I'm a Herb fan.

11/8/2005 1:22:57 PM

Think about it. If you are an athlete that wants to run the floor and play in a fast pace offense, why would you want to come to NC State? I know I wouldn't. His system was the reason Damien Wilkens left, the reason Cam is thinking that he should have left. Then again, he got Courtney Fells, so lets see how that works out.

11/8/2005 1:35:03 PM

My understanding is that Wilkins tried to come back and Herb said no.

Grant, Fells, and Davis are all recent recruits that are capable of playing run-the-floor style, but decided to come here.

And Cam has an entirely different set of issues...

Chris Wright (the #6 PG I was talking about earlier) said this last month:

Quote :

"“NC State, that’s the school that I’m most comfortable with right now. I’ve gotten to know their coaching staff the best. I’ve been there a couple of times. I really like their program and their style of play.”"

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 1:43 PM. Reason : Wright]

11/8/2005 1:41:28 PM

Quote :

"was the reason Damien Wilkens left,"

Wilkins left for the NBA draft b/c his dad and uncle had convinced him that he wasn't getting enough playing time. When he didn't get selected, he tried to come back(he did not have an agent), but Herb wouldn't take him back, so he had to transfer.

11/8/2005 1:42:18 PM

Basically what I am saying is, if your a guy like Eric Hicks, Kevin Swinton, or Trent Stickland, why would you consider coming to State to play basketball. I think this causes us to be much less athletic and causes us to rely on outside shooting too much. Maybe all of our in state players know this and choose to go elsewhere (except for Ced).

11/8/2005 1:47:34 PM

What I was implying was that Wilkins had motivation for trying to go to the NBA because Herb's system was holding him back.

11/8/2005 1:52:29 PM

Wake recruits heavily in-state. Herb happens to have connections up north, so we've been drawing a lot from up there recently.

If you look at Wake, all they do is play run-the-floor offense. Prosser doesn't coach defense at all. Last year, they had one of the most prolific offensive rosters in the country.

But then they proceeded to do absolutely nothing with it (losing to us in the ACC tourney and then getting knocked out by WVU in the second round), and I think that's going to have a big effect on their recruiting over the next few years. They're one of those programs that has a big year every once in awhile, but there's no consistency.

11/8/2005 1:52:53 PM

Hodge proved that an NC State player can get taken in the first round.

He wasn't all that great, but his versatility (that he probably couldn't show if he went to another school) made him stand out.

If I was one of the top high school players in the country, and was NBA ready, I probably wouldn't go to NC State. If I was a great high school player who's not quite NBA ready, I'd go to NC State.

I'd give it to Herb, he's pretty good about the fundamentals and he can turn a player into a complete one. Think you're just gonna score all day? Herb will make you ride the pine if you can't play D. To do well in the offense, you'll have to be able to shoot well (if you're a big man, that's definitely important in the pros), you have to pass well, you have to play defense, and rebounding is a must. You may not fill the stat sheet points-wise, but the better players do get noticed. Scouts aren't stupid. Yes, they love to get the freak with "tremendous upside", but they also go after the fundamentally sound players.

And to be honest, if Herb has the right compliment of players, I'm sure he'd play an uptempo "run-n-gun" game.

11/8/2005 1:59:26 PM

I'm not saying they have a better program, I'm just saying they get better athletes.

11/8/2005 2:00:43 PM

Quote :

"Basically what I am saying is, if your a guy like Eric Hicks, Kevin Swinton, or Trent Stickland, why would you consider coming to State to play basketball."

First, I don't think we actively recruited any of those guys...so it doesn't really matter if they would consider coming here. Second, Strickland sucks, Hicks isn't that great, and Swinton hasn't even played a college game yet. You could have used some better names.

Quote :

"What I was implying was that Wilkins had motivation for trying to go to the NBA because Herb's system was holding him back."

Herb's system didn't hold Wilkins back...Wilkins shitty play held him back. Wilkins' one million missed layups and three pointers and the fact that he was too slow and too poor of a shooter to play SG and too small to play PF or SF in the league is what held him back. You forget that Wilkins wasn't that great at Georgia either (did he even start his two years there??). Damien has finally developed a decent game in the NBA...but it wasn't Herb's fault that he sucked when he was here.

11/8/2005 2:09:02 PM

^But Damien had da killa pump fakez!!!

11/8/2005 2:12:03 PM

Herb is not playing style of NBA basketball. Let's face it, almost all of the highschool players want to play in the NBA. Why do you think they're all go to UNC?

11/8/2005 2:17:41 PM

YEAH, OR DUKE

11/8/2005 2:26:04 PM

Dude.

Herb has excellent basketball IQ and understands the game very very well. On top of that, he's an excellent tactician and can scout any team in America and pin point their weakness.

My only complaint are the intangibles -mainly- what happens when the other team gets really hot and gain momentum? What happens when they start shooting 70% from three feet behind the arc in the face of a defender? How do you keep your guys focused on the game and make them believe that if they keep playing hard they will win? I haven't seen Coach Sendek do particularly well in those situations just yet but I will say he has gotten progressively better (turning 3-8 to a S16 appearance).

11/8/2005 2:31:20 PM

Quote :

"I'm not saying they have a better program, I'm just saying they get better athletes."

I think Amato has shownt hat why athletically gifted individuals are great, they aren't the answer for everything. Sport IQ, teachability, passion, etc. are things that can beat out athleticism when handled correctly.

11/8/2005 2:32:40 PM

Quote :

"Herb is not playing style of NBA basketball. "

ACTUALLY....

NC State's offense has a lot of aspects that are used in NBA offenses.

ACTUALLY...

Big men who can shoot, pass, and dribble are all over the place in the NBA. You rarely find a "true" center anymore. That's what most of our big men have to do to play in our offense. If I was a big man trying to get into the NBA...I would love our system.

ACTUALLY...

There are very few pure point guards in the NBA anymore. You are seeing a lot of shooting guards who are now playing the point for a lot of teams.

11/8/2005 2:37:05 PM

ACTUALLY.. you don't see teams passing for the entire shot clock at mid-court and then shooting a three pointer in the NBA either.

I get what you're saying.. but you cannot seriously sit there and say we play a NBA style offense

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 2:50 PM. Reason : .]

11/8/2005 2:49:23 PM

nba shot clock doesnt allow enough time to work a ball around and try to take advantage of a defensive mistake on a backdoor....not saying it doesnt happen, but you cant really have an offense centered around it.

11/8/2005 2:52:44 PM

the nets and the spurs both run the princeton offense

ours is pretty close to that

i <3 herb

11/8/2005 3:08:38 PM

"ball motion" isn't the same thing as "Princeton."

The Pistons under Brown and the Spurs ran something more like Smith's system, where you spread the ball around but you still have pretty clearly defined position roles.

PGs tend to flourish in that style of system (see Larry Brown, Phil Ford, Chauncey Billups).

11/8/2005 4:52:52 PM

no team with this style offense will never shoot well enough for that long to win the championship. if we ran the same style off as duke or unc it would actually make ncstate more attractive for recruits. most players main goal isnt to win a national championship its to showcase their ability and get to the nba, why go be the 2nd 3rd 4th 5th guy at one of those schools when you can go to ncstate and be theee star, have all the playing time and pad your stats while still playing in the spotlight and against the powerhouses. this is why there has been a trend to more of a level playing field in college basketball recently.

i agree with most of the stuff and it has gotten us uniquly good quickly but it wont win a championship

11/8/2005 5:24:20 PM

I tend to think this style of offense will bring a championship to NC State quicker than a duke or UNC style would, simply because we aren't recruiting the best players quite yet...although our players are getting better. The thing is, the NCAA Tourney gives a chance to anyone who is hot. If we can havea hot streak like we did in 2004 when we won like 5 or 6 acc games in a row and topped it off with a W against Duke (although lost to clemson 3 days later), we have a chance. Thats why getting to the NCAA tournament is such a big deal. Anyone with players capable of playing at that high of a level has a chance, and thats why I dont mind seeing us play mediocre ball durring the regular season as long as we're hot in march.

As far as Herb developing NBA players, I think the offense would do that if it was more fast paced. We play way too much slow down ball, even though there are times when we can run the floor with the best of them...and we do. I think we play better ball when we push the tempo(see Duke game last year before we started playing with the clock, see wisconson, see MD 2 years ago in the acc tourney, see uconn last year...almost fucked that up). We built up big leads in all of those games, but lost when we slowed the tempo down. Thats also the reason we seem to play better from behind sometimes. But as far as player development is concerned, you have to play that kind of basketball constantly for it to pay off in the future.

I'm not claiming to know anything about NBA player development though...I fucking hate watching the NBA untill late may/june.

11/8/2005 6:46:17 PM

People tend to write off anything they don't already know as being useless.

Valvano's defenses were "junk"...until they shut down one of the strongest offenses in the country. He took a team that won based on its three-point shooting into a tournament that didn't have the 3-point line and still won it.

11/8/2005 6:58:30 PM

Thats also the reason you cant bitch about the coach if you're getting to the tournament every year. Hell, wasn't Syracuse or MD (cant remember which one) a 7 or 8 when they won it in 02 or 03?

11/8/2005 7:03:55 PM

^Maryland was a #1 seed when they won it

Syracuse was a 3


I believe only 2 teams have made it to the Final Four as a #8 seed and they were both in 2000... it seems like both Florida and UNC were #8 that year... the year Peppers and Curry joined the team late...



I have no idea if a #7 seed has ever won it....? Don't think an 8 has... could be wrong though

EDIT

Just looked it up. It was Wisconsin that was the other #8... not Florida. Florida was a 5. Both Wiscy and UNC lost in the Final Four. Michigan State beat Florida in the final. I'm pretty sure that's the only time a #8 seed has been to the Final Four.

The team that lost in the championship game to Maryland was #5 Indiana.... maybe that's what you're thinking of?

As far as a #7... ya got me. Hasn't happened recently. I think I went back to like 1997 looking
The lowest seed winning it in that timespan was #4 Arizona in 97

[Edited on November 8, 2005 at 7:32 PM. Reason : sdsd]

11/8/2005 7:08:39 PM

Lowest seed to ever win was Nova at #8.

State in '83 and Kansas in '88 were both #6 seeds.

11/8/2005 8:43:14 PM

Ah...maybe I was thinking MD was lower...I dont know why. My bad.

11/8/2005 8:49:13 PM

^^ Interesting... did not know that.


What year was it (Even though I'm sure nova hasn't won many... I just dont want to look it up)

11/8/2005 9:38:24 PM

nova won in 85

11/8/2005 10:28:53 PM

In my eyes Herb > Chuck and State bball > State fball

11/8/2005 11:37:35 PM

^Me too for the last 3 years. One is going downhill and one is going uphill.

11/8/2005 11:40:41 PM

is it just me or does it seem that both of our coaches recruit good talent and then have mediocre teams.....why cant we get a coach that can actually, well..............coach

11/8/2005 11:46:34 PM

^Great another Herb hater.

11/8/2005 11:55:21 PM

im cool with herb....just always hoping for more i guess

11/8/2005 11:57:52 PM

i think herb is a good coach and doesnt have nearly as much talent. chuck has great talent (except 1 position) but has trouble coaching it. if herb was a chuck equivalent recruiter or chuck was an herb equivalent manager it would be one hell of a coach

11/9/2005 3:54:00 AM

yeah, i've been saying the exact same thing all along. we couldn't get this kind of talent if we played just like everyone else did.

11/9/2005 4:06:59 AM

wheres all the talent? weve had a handfull of good recruits under sendek/

11/9/2005 4:59:51 AM

wheres all the talent? weve had a handfull of good recruits under sendek/

11/9/2005 5:13:09 AM

Top 20 Recruiting Classes:

Inge's Class (top 5)
Grundy's Class(top 15)
Wilkins's Class(top 15)
Scooter's Class(top 20)
Hodge's Class(top 3)
Brackman's Class(top 20)
Costner's Class(top 20)

11/9/2005 7:07:32 AM

These are our new basketball commitments:

SG 6-3 Larry Davis, Middle Village (N.Y.) Christ the King; SF 6-7 Dennis Horner, Absecon (N.J.) Holy Spirit; SF 6-7 Dan Werner, Lincroft (N.J.) Christian Brothers

[Edited on November 9, 2005 at 7:34 AM. Reason : c]

11/9/2005 7:29:40 AM

^ And **** Nikitta Gartrell


Committed last night and will be signing today as well. I started a new thread on it

11/9/2005 7:36:42 AM

^ That would be a commitment for the girls team buddy.

11/9/2005 8:06:14 AM

Yeah, I just figured that out.


I never actually knew that Scout.com kept up with girls

The more you know

11/9/2005 8:23:43 AM

Build traditon takes time.

11/9/2005 9:53:39 AM

Umm... I can not figure out why NC State is not recruiting Mcmillan's kid.

The dude is a damn four-star point gaurd, that's just what we need, right?

11/9/2005 5:59:52 PM

^We're recruiting him...just haven't offered.

We are leading for a 5-star point guard Christ Wright. If we get him, no point in taking two point guards in one class. If we don't get him, we can turn to Jamelle and a few other point guards on our list. I think we're siting pretty well with the point guards of 2007.

11/9/2005 8:15:02 PM