http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/texas.execution.ap/index.html

11/20/2005 10:45:02 PM

permanent solution to a temporary problem

11/20/2005 10:59:09 PM

WHOOPS

11/20/2005 11:17:03 PM

So...wait...

A man with a history of violent crime probably isn''t guilty anymore because an illegal immigrant changed his mind?

Alright, that was my cheap shot. Now I'll just say that the death penalty works fine. Various other parts of the system obviously do not.

11/20/2005 11:20:00 PM

yes, the actual death part works just fine

11/20/2005 11:21:58 PM

The death penalty prevents people with a relatively high probability of committing violent crimes from society to the only acceptable extent, which is to say, "totally."

Can it be misapplied? Yes. And changes should be affected to reduce the probability of that. As it is, even the most liberal estimates of how many "innocents" we execute are lower than the number of people who have been killed by repeat offender killers who should have been executed.

There's a thread in which actual numbers were given, but it's a ways back. I'll keep looking.

11/20/2005 11:24:40 PM

Quote :

"The eyewitness, Juan Moreno, told the Chronicle that it wasn't Cantu who shot him. Moreno said he identified Cantu as the killer during his 1985 trial because he felt pressured and was afraid of authorities."

there is no reason to come forward now if its lie

[Edited on November 20, 2005 at 11:36 PM. Reason : - ]

11/20/2005 11:35:50 PM

Maybe it was a lie, and maybe the system failed here.

Or maybe we have only a tiny sliver of the information.

11/20/2005 11:42:39 PM

Further, concluding an entire system fails because of a single event is obviously objective and probably right.

11/20/2005 11:44:49 PM

What's an innocent life here and there, when we have a system that discourages crime ....

hmmm

[Edited on November 20, 2005 at 11:51 PM. Reason : strike]

11/20/2005 11:50:54 PM

who cares about discouraging crime when we can exact sweet revenge!!

11/20/2005 11:51:53 PM

From Anthony Clark

"I've been through Texas and you know they I have the big death penalty there. I think the death penalty is definetely a deterrent. If I'm going to murder someone, I'm definetely going to Oklahoma."

11/20/2005 11:52:59 PM

OMFG A JUDGE SENTENCED A MAN TO 40 HOURS OF COMMUNITY SERVICE WHEN HE ACTUALLY DIDN'T STEAL THE CD FROM WAL-MART! DO AWAY WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM!!

No, the death penalty isn't perfect. It probably never will be. I would rather endorse a system that fails .0001% of the time than waste time and tax dollars on useless, raping, murderers. Kill them. I don't care. They deserve neither mercy nor decency. I think we should use rusty needles to inject the agent.

11/20/2005 11:54:44 PM

KILLING SOMEONE IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOO BAD

that

WE ARE GONNA KILL YOU

[Edited on November 20, 2005 at 11:56 PM. Reason : that makes a lot of sense ]

11/20/2005 11:55:46 PM

Quote :

"who cares about discouraging crime when we can exact sweet revenge!!"

Where have we talked about revenge?

The system doesn't discourage crime in general terms, but it prevents it in very particular terms. The idea is not to punish. It is to reduce the crime.

11/20/2005 11:57:28 PM

Quote :

"The death penalty prevents people with a relatively high probability of committing violent crimes from society to the only acceptable extent, which is to say, "totally.""

and how does a life sentence with no parole in a maximum security prison fail to do this?

Quote :

"As it is, even the most liberal estimates of how many "innocents" we execute are lower than the number of people who have been killed by repeat offender killers who should have been executed."

why should we execute people if a prison term can benefit society just as much as an execution? i could argue that they should've been sentenced to life with no parole, using the same argument as you.

11/20/2005 11:58:12 PM

Quote :

"The idea is not to punish. It is to reduce the crime."

so, why not life in prison with no chance of parole?



[Edited on November 20, 2005 at 11:59 PM. Reason : .]

11/20/2005 11:58:37 PM

oh boy, this debate again. how i dont miss freshman criminology class

11/21/2005 12:01:02 AM

Quote :

"and how does a life sentence with no parole in a maximum security prison fail to do this? "

Escape (Texas Seven), murders and other crimes committed inside prison, the fact that "life without parole" doesn't live up to its name nearly often enough.

As long as a killer is alive, he can kill again. Some criminals can be permitted the possibility of repeat offense. Murderers (or certain kinds of murderers) do not fall in that category.

11/21/2005 12:03:06 AM

it's not freshman until someone actually tries to argue deterrence

death row inmates are still capable of escape. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9922969/

instead of executing, why not solitary confinement?

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:06 AM. Reason : f]

11/21/2005 12:03:40 AM

^^to quote abonorio

Quote :

"Further, concluding an entire system fails because of a single event is obviously objective and probably right."

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:04 AM. Reason : .]

11/21/2005 12:04:38 AM

To quote me:

Quote :

"As it is, even the most liberal estimates of how many "innocents" we execute are lower than the number of people who have been killed by repeat offender killers who should have been executed."

Your system has let more innocent people die than mine has.

11/21/2005 12:06:10 AM

LINK?!?!?!

11/21/2005 12:07:11 AM

so wait, jwb gets the current flawed system as his own, and you get your own hypothetical system?

11/21/2005 12:12:00 AM

Hooray death penalty!!

11/21/2005 12:13:01 AM

Quote :

"907 people have been executed since the penalty was reinstated in 1974. If we apply the highest "wrongful execution" rate we have, 5.6 percent (which is giving you a hell of a leg up, considering all the things wrong with that number I've mentioned so far plus the fact that 49 states have lower rates than that), then I come up with approximately 51 innocent people executed in the last thirty years. Again, I have seen no evidence to suggest the number is anywhere near that high, but OK. A very quick perusal of some anecdotal evidence gives me something on the order of 71 people killed by already convicted murderers, including 11 correctional facility workers who were killed by prisoners in prison and 19 police officers outside. These numbers do not include the lists of inmates killed by their fellows in fights, gang assassinations, etc. Likewise I find an anecdotal list of 50 murderers who escaped but were captured before they could show any recidivistic tendencies -- and that's just in the last 8 years. So there's your figures, 71 known murders and something like 150 prison escapes that could have been prevented as compared to 51 possible (but improbable) innocents executed. Happy now? "

-GrumyGOP,
http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=195796&page=5

11/21/2005 12:13:34 AM

Quote :

"OMFG A JUDGE SENTENCED A MAN TO 40 HOURS OF COMMUNITY SERVICE WHEN HE ACTUALLY DIDN'T STEAL THE CD FROM WAL-MART! DO AWAY WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM!!"

Good thig you can undo the death penalty like you can community service.

Quote :

"No, the death penalty isn't perfect. It probably never will be. I would rather endorse a system that fails .0001% of the time than waste time and tax dollars on useless, raping, murderers. Kill them."

too bad killing them costs more money than keeping them (20 years of appeals).

11/21/2005 12:14:53 AM

The appeals process could probably stand to be streamlined.

11/21/2005 12:17:28 AM

why not rape the rapist?

11/21/2005 12:17:42 AM

^^ oh, faaaaaabulous idea, given the article being discussed in this thread.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:18 AM. Reason : .]

11/21/2005 12:18:06 AM

The large majority of the cases in which the convict in question is later exonerated have certain key factors in common, and I do not think, with a little hard work, that those factors could not be isolated and removed.

11/21/2005 12:20:19 AM

then certainly you are pro-moratorium?

11/21/2005 12:21:30 AM

Quote :

"too bad killing them costs more money than keeping them (20 years of appeals)."

link? I have a hard time believing that a few shots cost more than feeding them 3 times a day, giving them a bed, and providing heatlh services to these people.

But I could be wrong. I'd like to know.

11/21/2005 12:22:14 AM

^^No, I'm pro-"not shortening the appeals process until we've rooted out the bad elements."

^You are wrong. The appeals process (parts of which are mandatory) for a man sentenced to death costs a metric shit-ton of taxpayer money.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:23 AM. Reason : ]

11/21/2005 12:22:55 AM

i can sum up everything to shut the libs and conservs up

Detterence=Does NOT fucking work

Rehabilitation=Dose NOT fuckin work

11/21/2005 12:25:14 AM

noting that there are bad elements to our process, you don't feel these jeopardize innocent people's lives enough to support the moratorium?

11/21/2005 12:26:34 AM

yeah, i'd say that you're about 90% right on both counts


if my career in politics tanks after i get out of the USMC, i want to be a mercenary and executioner.

that or an airshow pilot

11/21/2005 12:27:56 AM

Quote :

"noting that there are bad elements to our process, you don't feel these jeopardize innocent people's lives enough to support the moratorium?"

Have you not read anything I've said in this thread? Seriously, man, just do a quick glance at it again.

11/21/2005 12:30:06 AM

when i say innocent lives, i am talking about falsely convicted death row inmates.

11/21/2005 12:30:54 AM

^^yeah, i cannot possibly fathom how someone could draw that conclusion based on what you've said

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:31 AM. Reason : ^no shit, that's what he's talking about, too. ]

11/21/2005 12:31:14 AM

and i am arguing that he should support a temporary moratorium that would do such things.

11/21/2005 12:32:35 AM

When I say "innocent lives," I mean, "the lives of anyone who is not guilty." I don't see how whether or not they've been convicted of anything enters into the equation.

More innocent lives are lost to killers that you won't let me execute than are to executions themselves.

11/21/2005 12:32:48 AM

why didn't these killers get the death penalty or a life sentence in the first place?

how are you going to execute these people if juries don't think they ought to be even held for life in prison?

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:34 AM. Reason : i meant that too, but felt i had to clarify explicitly]

11/21/2005 12:34:17 AM

Someone explain to me why the government should be in the business of exacting revenge.

11/21/2005 12:35:40 AM

^^Because this "life in prison without parole" thing of yours is largely a fantasy. It does not often get implemented. Because there are other restrictions on what sentences juries can hand down. Because people escape or kill people in prison.

^WHO THE FUCK SAID ANYTHING ABOUT REVENGE???

Jesus Christ, people, quit arguing against fantasy people.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:36 AM. Reason : ]

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:37 AM. Reason : ]

11/21/2005 12:36:08 AM

Quote :

"They deserve neither mercy nor decency. I think we should use rusty needles to inject the agent."

omg strawman abonorio

and it's the only line of reasoning that holds any water

11/21/2005 12:39:21 AM

Well, if there was no death penalty, then the worst punishment would be solitary inprisonment for life, now wouldn't it? and it would get handed down just like your executions.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9922969/
death row inmate escaped.

11/21/2005 12:39:56 AM

while i appreciate the merits of the "good" reasons for the death penalty (which grumpygop is doing a pretty good job of outlining), i'm cool with cold, hard revenge, too.

that's not politically correct, but i love it when shitty things happen to people who deserve it. that's part of the reason i'm in the business i'm in (the other part being the converse...to do what i can to protect people who don't deserve for people to do bad things to them...that and the action/adventure side of it)

11/21/2005 12:42:25 AM

Quote :

"omg strawman abonorio"

Fine, you aren't arguing against fantasy people, you're arguing against the dumbest argument being made in this thread. Here's a cookie.

Quote :

"Well, if there was no death penalty, then the worst punishment would be solitary inprisonment for life, now wouldn't it?"

Oh, thought you'd slip that "solitary" in there, did you? As though we have the prison capacity to not only keep all these people alive, but to keep them in their own cells and constantly separate from the rest of the prison population?

Even if we could come close to making that kind of acommodation (which would cost an ungodly sum of money), and even if it did get handed down, there would have to be a whole lot of other changes made to make sure the sentence was actually enforced.

When you convince all the taxpayers and voters in the land that they want to foot the bill for overhauling the prisons at their large expense to protect murderers, you go right ahead.

Quote :

"death row inmate escaped."

Well no shit. "Death row" is not the end point of the death penalty.

11/21/2005 12:44:18 AM

slipping it in there, as if it's the first time i said it.

well, i'm not going to be protecting murderers, now am I, if they are the ones that are murdering?

Quote :

"When you convince all the taxpayers and voters in the land that they want to foot the bill for overhauling the prisons at their large expense to protect murderers, you go right ahead."

no, it would obviously be protecting them.

i think our current administration is proof-enough that the gov't can get the public to foot any bill. AND get re-elected.

Quote :

"Even if we could come close to making that kind of acommodation (which would cost an ungodly sum of money), and even if it did get handed down, there would have to be a whole lot of other changes made to make sure the sentence was actually enforced."

according to your numbers, we only have to worry about 71 people every 31 years. keeping the violent of the violent in solitary wouldnt put any more of a strain that housing death row inmates. hell, that's where we'll put them. just until they die, not we kill them.

edit:
and if solitary life would be the equivalent of the death penalty, i don't see any change in infrastructure. i don't see the extraordinary cost rocket.

[Edited on November 21, 2005 at 12:56 AM. Reason : f ]

11/21/2005 12:51:35 AM