The classless world can never be a human one. A group of protestors in a chinese village were gunned down by chinese security forces for protesting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/10/world/main1115796.shtml

Quote :

"(AP) China on Saturday made its first official comment on a clash between authorities and demonstrators in a southern Chinese village in which an unknown number of people were killed, saying hundreds of armed villagers “incited by a few instigators” had assaulted police. Residents of Guangdong province's Dongzhou village, northeast of Hong Kong, have said authorities killed up to 20 people Tuesday when they fired on demonstrators protesting allegedly inadequate payments for land taken for a power plant. "

I like how everyone conforms so quickly, of course, I mean the government speaks for them.

Quote :

" It quoted the city government as saying that hundreds of villagers “incited by a few instigators” had violently attacked a wind power plant on Tuesday and assaulted police in a “serious violation of the law.” The villagers used knives, steel spears, sticks, dynamite, petroleum bombs and fishing detonators to attack the plant, Xinhua said. "

Quote :

"The province has formed a special group to investigate the incident, the official Xinhua New Agency said. "

HAHAHAHA


[Edited on December 10, 2005 at 2:59 PM. Reason : Link]

12/10/2005 2:58:10 PM

if mcdanger posted instead of lurked he'd be all over this thread

12/10/2005 3:02:54 PM

sounds more authoritarian than communist

12/10/2005 3:05:14 PM

yeah those communists...

12/10/2005 3:13:01 PM

Quote :

"The province has formed a special group to investigate the incident, the official Xinhua New Agency said."

Like this is any different than how our government investigates it's own mistakes.

Quote :

"The classless world can never be a human one."

I agree, but I don't assume that this means that we should get rid of the classless world part, instead get rid of the human part. It is the root of all of our problems, and it has held us back for so long.

Quote :

"A group of protestors in a chinese village were gunned down by chinese security forces for protesting."

This hasn't ever happened in an american college a few years ago or anything.

12/10/2005 3:50:40 PM

Or at the DNC in '68...

12/10/2005 3:51:46 PM

^^ what's your point?
You are right, America is not perfect and fucked up shit happens.

However;

When this happened in the US in '68 it was the fault of inexperienced/young/ignorant national guardsmen. Assuming the same in China, there is still one BIG difference.

In America we have freedom of the press, so everyone knew the truth about what happened.
In you beloved Communist( Progressive Socialist with Chinese Characteristics--or what the fuck ever they can think of to sound better) China has kept a lid on the incident. They control the media/internet and every ones thoughts, so this behavior can go unpunished, and further suppress the poor peasants. That town is now on lock-down, and they continue to terrorize the village.

Kris, you should not defend the authoritarian Chinese government. They are not communist and they give a bad image to the name.

America is fucked up, and you know it because of our rights to press,speach, etc... So hopefully through criticism we can change.

12/10/2005 6:43:41 PM

at least they're not peeing on rugs anymore

12/10/2005 6:55:09 PM

is there a parody thread or did i read this as "thank god for communion" the first time?

12/10/2005 7:45:04 PM

Quote :

"You are right, America is not perfect and fucked up shit happens."

China is not perfect and fucked up shit happens, in fact, I'll go ahead and extend that to every country. Thus your point is null.

Quote :

"In America we have freedom of the press, so everyone knew the truth about what happened."

Chinese will be able to find out too, whether they have freedom of the press or not.

Quote :

"China has kept a lid on the incident."

America keeps lids on it's incedents as well, in fact I'll extend that one globally as well.
Ex. the war in mexico, the south american wars, etc.

Quote :

"Kris, you should not defend the authoritarian Chinese government. They are not communist and they give a bad image to the name."

You are trying to act like this same situation is worse than similar ones that happen elsewhere and blame it on communism. It's not any worse, and it's certain;y not the fault of communism.

12/10/2005 8:35:37 PM

Quote :

"China is not perfect and fucked up shit happens, in fact, I'll go ahead and extend that to every country. Thus your point is null."

That was my point. when you said

Quote :

"This hasn't ever happened in an American college a few years ago or anything."

trying to justify the incident in China. YOUR point is moot.

Quote :

"Chinese will be able to find out too, whether they have freedom of the press or not. "

Care to explain how? Many still don't know who Zhao Ziyang is, or why he was under house arrest. As CNN's Mike Chinoy reported from the streets of Beijing, when Mr. Zhao died earlier this year.

Quote :

"America keeps lids on it's incidents as well, in fact I'll extend that one globally as well. Ex. the war in mexico, the south american wars, etc."

Few can murder their own people and get away with it. If that' sthe kinda place where you want to live, then I understand your unquestioning support for dictatorships.

Quote :

"You are trying to act like this same situation is worse than similar ones that happen elsewhere and blame it on communism. It's not any worse, and it's certain;y not the fault of communism."

You put words in my mouth.
1. I did not say China was Communist or that Communism was bad.
2. I did not say one incident was worse than the other. It was the reaction to the incident.
China's reaction was further suppression of the people.


If you support Communism how can you support China's current government? Maoism in China is long gone. Sorry to break the news to you. China is just a dictatorship, and you seem to support that just because they call themselves communist.

12/10/2005 9:38:37 PM

didn't read it...but i'm a fan of the commies

12/10/2005 9:56:20 PM

It's a god damned mockery, marko.

12/10/2005 10:23:35 PM

Quote :

"trying to justify the incident in China. YOUR point is moot."

My point was both didn't matter because this shit happens everywhere

Quote :

"Care to explain how?"

It'll get out, there are plenty of different sources they can find it through

Quote :

"Few can murder their own people and get away with it."

Many can and have.

Quote :

"I understand your unquestioning support for dictatorships."

I never said I supported dictatorships.

Quote :

"You put words in my mouth."

You directly implied it through your thread title

Quote :

"If you support Communism how can you support China's current government?"

It's a much better implementation of communism than Mao instituted.

Quote :

"China is just a dictatorship, and you seem to support that just because they call themselves communist."

They are communist.

12/10/2005 10:51:41 PM

unless it is an alias the problem ur having here kris is that he isnt the thread-starter.

i think we can all agree that it isnt communism so blaming it on such is stupid...as pretty much everyone has said.

12/10/2005 11:44:29 PM

Quote :

"Many can and have."

Maybe many authoritarian governments. I should have adjusted my statement.

Quote :

"You directly implied it through your thread title"

I didn't start this thread.

Quote :

"It's a much better implementation of communism than Mao instituted."

Ah, but I never said that. What mao implemented was an utter failure.
I think you know my opinion of Mao from our last bout.
Maoism (his ideas not implementations) on the other hand, was very true to communism. The current government has little communism in it, though they call their one party system a "communist state".

Quote :

"They are communist."

No, they are not. It's more like an authoritarian government that is more capitalist than socialist.
Their success is not based on Communism, it's based on capitalism, private ownership, and the exploitation of the poor rural villagers. My beef with China is that they have gone backwards politically.

Quote :

"It'll get out, there are plenty of different sources they can find it through"

Care to name a few?
I don't think you understand the extent to which China controls the internet. Hell, even their text messaging. Why do you think Microsoft and Google took so much heat in the US, and by reporters around the world, for helping China gain control over the content people can find using their search engines. This was necessary for MS&google to do if they wanted China's business.

12/11/2005 1:34:17 AM

Quote :

"unless it is an alias the problem ur having here kris is that he isnt the thread-starter."

I honestly didn't notice that, my mistake.

Quote :

"Maybe many authoritarian governments."

Assainations are not a new thing, to democracies or dictarships, if you want some examples, I'll provide them.

Quote :

"I didn't start this thread."

My mistake, I didn't notice the name.

Quote :

"Ah, but I never said that."

I know, I did.

Quote :

"What mao implemented was an utter failure."

Yet it was still much better than the government in place before him.

Quote :

"Maoism (his ideas not implementations) on the other hand, was very true to communism."

Mao did not believe in Lenin or marx's ideas of communism. He had a much different approach which one can easily see.

Quote :

"No, they are not. It's more like an authoritarian government that is more capitalist than socialist."

This is where one can really discern the marx reader from the marx assumer.

Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844
Communism still political in nature – democratic or despotic; with the abolition of the state, yet still incomplete, and being still affected by private property, i.e., by the estrangement of man. In both forms communism already is aware of being reintegration or return of man to himself, the transcendence of human self-estrangement; but since it has not yet grasped the positive essence of private property, and just as little the human nature of need, it remains captive to it and infected by it. It has, indeed, grasped its concept, but not its essence.
http://mia.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm

So many people assume that communism requires some form of advanced socialism. Indeed that is the goal, as marx has pointed out, but it is not a requirement. The only requirement is that goal. One can still be capitalist and be considered communist from their end goal.

Quote :

"Care to name a few?"

Word of mouth for one. If china was so restrictive, it wouldn't allow immigration or free trade. As even Friedman will shout, these allow for exchange of ideas.

Quote :

"I don't think you understand the extent to which China controls the internet."

I didn't intent to talk about the internet, as that was obviously the snare you intended for me to step into.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 1:57 AM. Reason : ]

12/11/2005 1:57:01 AM

Just to make my initial disclaimer, this is a drive-by posting so...you know...get over it.

I think that there are a few blatantly obvious things here that it looks like both of these acting-geniuses seem to forget. China is a Communistic state. This doesn’t mean that they are following Marxism to the letter of the law, but they are an acting Communistic state the same as every other Communistic state, a small core group of people regulating a nation oppressively and regulating the economy through forcing industrial practices and setting their currency rather then letting it into the global market. Second of all, China is little more then a country of fucktards that thinks they can take on the world because they got a bunch of young, untrained, and ill-equipped soldiers and pass it off as the worlds largest army when really its just the worlds largest mob.

This entire argument is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen on here because you guys have basically made up this idea of what China is in your mind. Have you ever been to China? Seen how the public officials acted? Actually, been to that part of the world and looked at what other Asian countries think of the economy? Talk about over-heating… Anyway, you guys have fun pretending to be smart.

-Pack

12/11/2005 1:59:07 AM

Quote :

"China is little more then a country of fucktards that thinks they can take on the world because they got a bunch of young, untrained, and ill-equipped soldiers and pass it off as the worlds largest army when really its just the worlds largest mob."

China's international power does not reside militaristically, but economically. We owe them a LOT of money. If they wanted war with us, they'd do it by cashing in bonds, not by firing missles.

12/11/2005 2:03:13 AM

why dont we just take all our stuff back then and not let them have our money

12/11/2005 3:34:52 AM

12/11/2005 3:47:39 AM

Quote :

"This entire argument is probably the stupidest thing I have ever seen on here because you guys have basically made up this idea of what China is in your mind. Have you ever been to China? Seen how the public officials acted? Actually, been to that part of the world and looked at what other Asian countries think of the economy? "

I have been to that part of the world; Japan, China, and Taiwan. I have studied mandarin for 3 years and followed the politics of Taiwan and China very closely for 4. I am by no means an expert, but I can hold my own.

Quote :

"Yet it was still much better than the government in place before him."

I know you are referring to the Nationalist, I probably have to agree with you on that.
China had many great dynasties. Some bad but, those usually didn't last long, e.g. Qin Shi Huang di. Who, by the way, established the legal system, which is very close to the current form of government.

Quote :

"The only requirement is that goal. One can still be capitalist and be considered communist from their end goal."

China has given up the goal of true communism, a long time ago. That is common knowledge.
Every statement and action coming out of China supports that. Even pro-communist propaganda sites agree with me on that. http://www.marxist.com/china.asp/

feel free to retort, I'll let you have the last stab.

12/11/2005 4:29:39 AM

well i mean if china thinks they are so big economically why dont they try to do something, i mean i'd like to see what happened to their economy if we didnt buy from them

12/11/2005 4:52:49 AM

because it'd be like shooting yourself in the foot...

12/11/2005 11:44:06 AM

Quote :

"I know you are referring to the Nationalist, I probably have to agree with you on that. China had many great dynasties. Some bad but, those usually didn't last long, e.g. Qin Shi Huang di."

Regardless, Communism had done a great deal for modernizing china.

Quote :

"China has given up the goal of true communism, a long time ago."

That's a VERY bold statement. You'll need to prove it.

Quote :

"Every statement and action coming out of China supports that."

No, it may look that they are moving towards privatization in the short run, but this is all part of a better plan to slowly resocialize their industries.

Quote :

"Even pro-communist propaganda sites agree with me on that. http://www.marxist.com/china.asp/"

We communists disagree with one another just like anyone else. You can even see the disagreement on that very page. You can disagree with marx thought, but you cannot disagree with what marx said. You have done so and I have proven you wrong.

Quote :

"feel free to retort, I'll let you have the last stab."

You didn't give me a lot to work with, only two weak responses. I didn't expect much, I throughly destroied your arguement on China not being communist. I've gotten into this arguement several times, and I know how to win it.

Quote :

"well i mean if china thinks they are so big economically why dont they try to do something"

Why? China is a bit different from america. They don't start that many wars out of baseless fear or whatever the hell reason we went into Iraq and started the Cold War. What reason does china have to go into economic war with us? It'll hurt us both.

Quote :

"i mean i'd like to see what happened to their economy if we didnt buy from them"

What you have to keep in mind here is if they called in their loans, we wouldn't be buying anything from anyone. I'm sure they'll get their money from us one way or the other. It would be tough for us to default on our loans as a big member of the IMF, which has made sure to hold poor south american countries in debt.

12/11/2005 11:44:47 AM

Quote bombs like this belong in Soap Box.

12/11/2005 12:00:12 PM

animals belong in the zoo

12/11/2005 12:12:23 PM

Quote Bombs

ahahahahaha

-ZiP!-

12/11/2005 12:13:32 PM

Quote :

"-- The commander of forces that shot and killed people protesting land seizures in a southern village has been detained, the Chinese government said Sunday, as police in riot gear patrolled the community and appealed for order."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/12/11/china.protest.ap/index.html

so that's good, right

12/11/2005 1:54:38 PM

Quote :

"has been detained"

Haha, yah

12/11/2005 2:59:07 PM

you expect them to hold someone responsible when the US won't even hold anyone responsible for torture and prisoner abuse?

I mean what happened was wrong, but the fact is, this shit happens, and you can't really expect an authoritarian government to be a beacon for human rights.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 4:15 PM. Reason : ]

12/11/2005 4:14:21 PM

Quote :

"We communists disagree with one another just like anyone else."

Aight, man, lets go ahead and figure about how well of a grasp on reality you have. You are a self proclaimed communist. Lets see, communism. Communism leads to (a) minimal profit, (b) the opportunity for a corrupt government to seize control, (c) a large over-worked and under paid lower class, and (d) takes down other countries with it. China's economy is booming but trust me, that is not too much of a concern for many because their economy is over-heating. The only threat they pose to the US is purhaps a militaristic one and at that they can't hold their own against higher weapondry. Military Industrial Complex, b*tches.

On top of that, honestly, why are you Communist. Is it because you really feel the color red pulsing through your veins or because its an edgy way to identify yourself. Ever wonder why we havn't elected any Communists to Congress? Mostly because they all end up as poor or as crazy guys with unkept beards who drink to keep warm and talk about the blackhawk heli's behind their house watching them.

One day you'll do what all the other college-commies do and join the Democratic Party and talk about how Americans are stupid and don't know who to pick for President.

...or you'll end up like Gary, so whatever. Have fun with that whole "I'm a proud commie" thing. Hope it works out better for you then it has for...well, actually, if it works out in the least for you, then you're ahead of the pack. Go for it, man.

[Edited on December 11, 2005 at 6:49 PM. Reason : ...whatever]

12/11/2005 6:48:55 PM

Quote :

"Communism leads to (a) minimal profit, (b) the opportunity for a corrupt government to seize control, (c) a large over-worked and under paid lower class, and (d) takes down other countries with it."

Prove this.

Quote :

"China's economy is booming but trust me, that is not too much of a concern for many because their economy is over-heating."

You might be able to say this if they didn't have interest-aquiring bonds from the US. The only way they could take a blow economically is if we do.

Quote :

"The only threat they pose to the US is purhaps a militaristic one"

You obviously know nothing about the US balance of payments deficit.

Quote :

"why are you Communist"

That requires a very long answer

I go into it on this thread:
message_topic.aspx?topic=307067

Quote :

"Is it because you really feel the color red pulsing through your veins or because its an edgy way to identify yourself."

I am a bit to pragmatic to feel nationalistic feelings of communism, and few people know I am communist outside of my online political discussions, mainly because I like to be idenntified as who I am rather than simply the communist guy.

Quote :

"Ever wonder why we havn't elected any Communists to Congress?"

Once agian you misunderstand communism.

You seem to feel it neccesary to put me and an entire idealogy down, both of which you niether know nor understand. This probably explains why you joined the military.

12/11/2005 7:09:12 PM

I lack the skills to quote something, and argue against it without making any progress

12/11/2005 7:57:37 PM

Sadly you will be used as decoys

But your children's children will know that you fell for a noble cause.

12/11/2005 8:11:43 PM

Quote :

"Prove this."

Go talk to Dr. Hyman.

Seems like you are the one who is ill-informed on communism if you are following it. As previously said, you will end up growing up one day, joining the Democratic Party after realizing you wasted your younger years following this dead and ignorant philosophy, or you will become one of those nuts who thinks you can set up a eutopian society.

And dont start with the whole "you can't stereotype" us thing cause you know that defense is complete crap and anyone who uses that defense is just huddling in their associations with whatever group you are in.

And don't stereotype the military. You obviously don't understand us so don't stereotype us

And I'm not in the military...good try.

12/11/2005 8:44:23 PM

Quote :

"Go talk to Dr. Hyman."

Who the fuck is Hyman?

Quote :

"Seems like you are the one who is ill-informed on communism if you are following it."

You don't even know what it is, how can you assume it is wrong?

Quote :

"eutopian society"

Did you mean to say Ethiopian society? Because I think we have one of those already.

Quote :

"And don't stereotype the military. You obviously don't understand us so don't stereotype us"

Yeah, that would be like you stereotyping communism, oh wait....

Quote :

"And I'm not in the military...good try."

Oh deferred? Let me guess, erectile dysfunction?

12/11/2005 10:10:35 PM

man you knew he meant utopian

12/11/2005 10:21:52 PM

well that just ruins the joke

12/11/2005 10:30:25 PM

I laughed.

12/11/2005 10:39:13 PM

Quote :

"sounds more authoritarian than communist"

Authoritarian socialism to be exact. There has never been a communist society on a large scale and never will be.

12/12/2005 1:15:45 AM

I WILL VIOLENTLY OPPOSE ANY ETHIOPIAN SOCIETIES

12/12/2005 1:19:31 AM

Quote :

"There has never been a communist society on a large scale and never will be."

Please don't say that after I've just quoted the manuscripts here.

Communism isn't defined by an advanced level of socialism. It is merely that goal that defines it.

[Edited on December 12, 2005 at 1:21 AM. Reason : ]

12/12/2005 1:21:02 AM

is it possible to like have a democracy and a communist government at the same time?

12/12/2005 1:23:57 AM

Yep

Communism still political in nature – democratic or despotic; with the abolition of the state, yet still incomplete, and being still affected by private property, i.e., by the estrangement of man.
http://mia.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/comm.htm

In fact there were a few experiments with this and very good and fair democratically elected communist leaders in south america, unfortunately they were swiftly squashed and replace with more US friendly dictatorships.

12/12/2005 1:31:34 AM

I'm not understanding something. It says the abolishment of the state, yet still incomplete. What is meant by that?

12/12/2005 9:01:25 AM

It is saying that the society has not erraticated the government yet. Another stupid misconception people (generally anarchists) have is that since marx discussed the abolition of the state, that he required it for a country to be communist. This isn't true. A country can be communist while having a government, and while not yet implementing levels of socialism.

12/12/2005 11:00:12 AM

^as in people implement it on their own, correct?

12/12/2005 4:01:56 PM

generally the government implements it slowly moving closer to the true essence of communism, but this isn't a requirement, the path towards communism is different for every country, it can include democracy, despotism, capitalism, or socialism. Basically marx is saying that the goal is what makes a country communist.

12/12/2005 4:06:12 PM