http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2005/12/eu-vs-usa-two-years-of-economic-data.html

Quote :

"Earlier this year, Political Calculations noted a study by the Sweden-based free-market advocacy group Timbro, which compared the relative wealth of the nations of Western Europe (the 15 members of the European Union prior to the EU being expanded in May 2004) against individual U.S. states. The key finding in Timbro's report (available as a 958KB PDF document) was that: If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia."

National data was taken as reported by the respective national governments, state data originated here:
http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/regional/gsp/help/About_Gross_State_Product/About_Gross_State_Product.cfm

US State or EU Nation______GSP or GDP-PPP per capita (US dollars)
EU - Portugal _____________17930
EU - Greece _______________21263
EU - Spain ________________23277
US - Mississippi ___________26237
US - West Virginia _________27242
EU - Italy ________________27714
EU - 15 (Members pre-2004)_27864
EU - Sweden _______________28420
EU - Germany _____________28656
EU - France _______________28747
EU - Finland ______________28996
US - Arkansas ______________29391
EU - Netherlands ___________29482
EU - United Kingdom ________29567
US - Montana ________________29650
US - Oklahoma ______________30537
EU - Belgium ________________30556
US - Alabama ________________30869
US - Idaho __________________31273
EU - Austria ________________31304
EU - Ireland ________________31842
US - New Mexico ____________32056
EU - Denmark _______________32216
US - South Carolina _________32426
US - Maine ________________32899
US - Kentucky ______________32911
US - Louisiana ______________33869
US - Florida ________________34435
US - Utah __________________34579
US - Arizona ________________34812
US - Vermont ________________35277
US - Missouri _______________35327
US - Oregon ________________35638
US - North Dakota ___________35763
US - Kansas ________________36171
US - Indiana _______________36484
US - Ohio __________________36641
US - Michigan _______________36802
US - Tennessee _____________36880
US - Iowa __________________37609
US - Pennsylvania ___________37730
US - South Dakota ____________38120
US - Wisconsin _______________38413
US - Rhode Island ___________38569
US - Georgia ________________38862
US - Nebraska ______________39024
US - Texas ________________39312
US - North Carolina _________39385
US - Hawaii ________________39848
US - New Hampshire _________39916
US - All States _____________39959
US - Maryland ______________41020
US - Illinois ________________41050
US - Washington ____________42160
US - Nevada ________________42967
US - California ______________43204
US - Colorado ________________43458
US - Minnesota ________________43878
US - Virginia ________________44147
US - New York ________________46639
US - Wyoming ________________47340
US - New Jersey _____________47828
US - Massachusetts __________49528
US - Alaska ________________51909
US - Connecticut ___________53032
EU - Luxembourg ____________59003
US - Delaware _______________65362
US - District of Columbia _____138540

12/14/2005 3:38:46 PM

Obligatory "OMF your info is biased!!1 There's no mention of free time!!1"

12/14/2005 3:43:59 PM

I had no idea D.C's gdp per capita would be that high

Their GINI index must be through the roof

I think I posted this study in a thread a while back but I cant find it

12/14/2005 3:45:46 PM

^
gentrification'll do that before too long. hell most of northern VA is the same, all the rich politicians using teh g0v to run the poor people out...

12/14/2005 3:56:22 PM

Goes to show that

Liberal California >>> Liberal Europe

Score one for America.

12/14/2005 4:05:16 PM

not that I support the Swedish system but look at all the stupid shit they throw into GDP numbers:
http://www.redefiningprogress.org/media/clips/040701_csm.html

12/14/2005 8:27:02 PM

Luxembourg

12/14/2005 9:37:40 PM

oh yeah, well, OUR POOR PEOPLE ARE ALOT POORER! #1!

[Edited on December 14, 2005 at 11:13 PM. Reason : .]

12/14/2005 11:01:22 PM

Capitalism is just a better system, duh. If we would have more open banking laws then we could have a GDP/capita like Luxembourg.

12/14/2005 11:43:55 PM

Europe has a completely different lifestyle than America

you can't really compare the 2 like this

12/15/2005 12:04:47 AM

^winner

how much does europe even manufacture these days, anyway? its all service sector. at least we still have some commodities to ship.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 12:34 AM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 12:21:59 AM

^the service sector makes up a larger a percentage of our labor force than that of the EU

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 1:50 AM. Reason : ]

12/15/2005 1:45:26 AM

And yet europe is still much safer and a better palce to live.

Someone posted something a while ago where it had the 25%th percentile GPD. Most of the west europe nations kicked the shit out of the US. This country has a LOT of poverty.

12/15/2005 2:13:57 AM

Yeah we don't give out as many hand outs to stupid lazy people

12/15/2005 2:15:32 AM

right, which is reflected in the much greater number of people not working or doing anything usefull in Europe.

wait...

12/15/2005 2:16:52 AM

Unemployment rates in Europe are often in the double digits.

wait...

12/15/2005 2:18:16 AM

i cant speak for the rest of europe, but i know britain has a heavier % in the service sector than the US does. aside from wool, theres really know substantial industrial exports left there.

id like to see russia and the former SRs thrown into this comparison out of curiosity. my dad's employer has started selling (oddly enough) sweet potatos to distributors over there, and apparently their distribution co.'s and supermarkets are really doing very well right now.



[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 2:27 AM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 2:25:17 AM

Quote :

"i cant speak for the rest of europe, but i know britain has a heavier % in the service sector than the US does"

not really, theirs is about the same is ours

besides being lower in gdp per capita, the UK and the US have comparable statistics and their income inequality isnt even that much lower than ours (40 vs 36 in the GINI index and they have a larger % living under the poverty line)

And overall the general structure of the British as well as the Irish economy is more similar to ours than it is to the rest of Western Europe


[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 2:41 AM. Reason : ]

12/15/2005 2:37:27 AM

^^No, thats not true.

The service sector accounts for approximately 75% of Britain's GDP, versus 80% for the US

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 2:41 AM. Reason : 7]

12/15/2005 2:41:17 AM

Interesting.

12/15/2005 2:41:25 AM

WOW

THIS INFORMATION SHOWS THE US CONSUMES MORE THAN EUROPE

IM AMAZED!

12/15/2005 2:42:13 AM

gtfo you crazy communist

12/15/2005 2:42:56 AM

^^ You would be shocked, you damn communist (I expect you to take this as a compliment).
Capitalism is simply more productive.

12/15/2005 9:44:40 AM

That, or our culture values consumption more than others

12/15/2005 10:40:33 AM

Nobody ever argued that the EU was richer then the US but I would really like to see the distribution of Wealth in Europe as opposed to the distribution of wealth in the United States.

12/15/2005 11:17:43 AM

well, fascist movements are on the rise in europe these days, maybe youll get your wish soon.

12/15/2005 12:26:32 PM

Nepal or Bhutan has a "Gross National Happiness" index

someone with time plz dig that up

12/15/2005 1:42:45 PM

tired of using seperate jars of mustard and mayonaise?

use mayostarmustardayonaise!

12/15/2005 2:08:53 PM

Quote :

"That, or our culture values consumption more than others"

Well, probably not. You see, a lot of the earnings difference between the average American and European would go away if not for high European unemployment and under-employment.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 4:37 PM. Reason : .,.]

12/15/2005 4:36:53 PM

you missed my point

12/15/2005 4:44:39 PM

totally missed the point there, gg

this is like apples and oranges

sure, everyone loves mickey mouse, but that doesnt mean everyone wants to live in disney world

12/15/2005 4:58:21 PM

^^ Then perhaps you could rephrase it? It sounded like your point was that europeans favor free time over additional consumption and therefore work less. The answer to this would be to simply demonstrate that much of the reduced consumption in Europe is due to structural problems in the economy, such as I stated.

12/15/2005 5:20:01 PM

Former German Chancellor Shroeder works for Russia now. So Europe becomes more and more interesting to me.

12/15/2005 5:21:33 PM

what you see as structural problems in the economy, they see as 3 weeks in the french riviera



and because i know you aren't going to drop it, explain legally enforced 35 hour work weeks in france, 2 hour siestas in spain, and across europe on average 2-3 times as much vacation time for workers compared to the US



and because i know you are going to bring up taxes, explain why they simply don't vote in government representatives that lower taxes

12/15/2005 5:26:32 PM

do people not understand the Europe is capitalist too?

hey guys i tossed all these numbers together and i found out the information i wanted to find. what are the ODDS!

12/15/2005 5:35:42 PM

Quote :

"Capitalism is simply more productive."

The GDP doesn't show that. You are interpreting it as a representation of the respective economies. That is generally better represented by the balance of payments, which will show that most of the US GDP arises from consumption.

The problem here is you don't know what the GDP is.

12/15/2005 5:35:55 PM

LoneSnark apparently doesnt know anyone thats ever lived in europe. Reduced consuption is due to

1) people live closer to where they need to go, thus they dont spend all that money on personal transportation like we do, b/c they dont NEED to. Its stupid to drive to the store to get milk when its less than a mile away, and the arrangements of their cities allows for that. of course, one would think theyre more healthy, but thats what smoking does to you.
2) they choose free time over consumption and overworking.

just b/c you arent buying a buncha shit doesnt mean your economy is broken, thats just silly. its the culture. having family living over there at various times in Brussels and Northhampton, Eng. has taught me this. maybe im biased b/c im conservative in the sense that im a tight-ass w/ money, but still, you dont need things to make you happy, and most, but not all, other world cultures realize that a little better than we do. numbers wont tell you that, tho, so it might be hard to see. sure, everyone wants things, but theres a line b/w having what it takes to make you happy and being a glutton who eats 3 burgers at a meal.

and yes, they are capitalist, they just choose to focus on social programs more than we do as opposed to a bloated defense budget and money for useless programs like bridges to nowhere. we could afford this stuff too if we were better at managing money (not saying they're necissarily any better, but i digress).

hooray for the social sciences!

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 6:02:19 PM

Quote :

"Someone posted something a while ago where it had the 25%th percentile GPD. Most of the west europe nations kicked the shit out of the US. This country has a LOT of poverty."

The US has much lower unemployment rates than most European countries, and Canada.

12/15/2005 6:59:17 PM

US- 5.5%
Sweden- 5.6%
UK- 4.8%
Ireland- 4.3%
Spain- 10.4%
France- 10.1%
Belgium- 12%
Norway- 4.3%
The Netherlands-6%
Germany- 10.6%

Basically, the trend here is that in the EU, youve got unemployment thats either = to the US or slightly lower, or ~5% higher, so you cant really make a blanket statement and compare the EU and the US. Northern Europe seems to be winning this category by a slight bit. Maybe its the French influence in the low countries

And Canada is at 7%, FWIW.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Shit, some Eastern European countries are still up around 30%.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 7:17 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 7:14:39 PM

Quote :

" and because i know you aren't going to drop it, explain legally enforced 35 hour work weeks in france, 2 hour siestas in spain, and across europe on average 2-3 times as much vacation time for workers compared to the US"

Do you want me to drop it?
Anyway, why do I need to explain anything? You said it yourself, legally enforced 35 hour work week, legally mandated vacation time, etc. You have no choice but to take a vacation, no choice but to work only 35 hours, no choice, no choice. So we have no idea if the french people prefer working less or not, government agents swoop in to make sure no one is violating the legally mandated work week. Taking a second job is also illegal. If you have two kids in college, had an unforseen financial burden, relatives in financial trouble, an unexpected baby, whatever, you can do nothing about it. Maybe you can begin selling off property to cover the shortfall. At least in America you can ask for overtime or take a second job. Some speculate that this flexibility in the American job market allows us to save less than our French counterparts because we have options of getting more if we absolutely need it, they do not.

Quote :

"and because i know you are going to bring up taxes, explain why they simply don't vote in government representatives that lower taxes"

While I'm sure Europes high taxes are a major burden I doubt they are the most debilitating. Best I can tell Europe, on average, suffers far more from its closed labor market (resulting in high structural unemployment), high tarriffs (resulting in poor productivity growth), and a general degree of governmental meddling (I find it hard to believe the new A380 is being manufactured in the most cost effective means).

As for PinkandBlack, I think you are looking at Europe and America and seeing "culture" when, in reality, geography would be a better explanation. Of course Europe is layed out more densely with more stuff in walking distance, population density is far higher.
You apparently don't know anything thats ever lived in New York. Everything is in walking distance, maybe you take the subway, but that doesn't mean you must live in a small apartment without air-conditioning. In some cases, these are things you need to live, and American's can afford such "luxeries" as not dying when a heat-wave settles in. More than 3000 Frenchmen died in the heatwave of 2003, hurricane Katrina claimed less than 1/3rd that number. When a far more severe heatwave hit Chicago in 1995 the deathtoll was in the hundreds, the vast majority of which were the result of a power outage in the affluent North Side.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 9:28 PM. Reason : .,.]

12/15/2005 9:21:07 PM

somehow i dont think an "overwhelming tax burden" was what killed them. then again, its france, and i already said that theyre pretty much silly.

apples to oranges.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 9:38 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 9:35:34 PM

^ Who are you quoting? (just curious) It wasn't me, because I said French taxation was "a major burden" but obviously not overwhelming. As a matter of being correct, to the best of my knowledge high tax rates do encourage illegality, but that is about it.

Add this to the fact that France is obviously NOT overwealmed. It may have a GDP 2/3 that of the US, but it is obviously far richer than Africa which, I think we can agree, should be the default example of a country "overwealmed."

My point is merely that France does not operate at maximum efficiency, which I suppose is kinda silly. Who cares about 2% vs 5% economic growth? Any society that doesn't nightly have people rioting in the street is a resounding success. I'm just talking for the sake of hearing myself type, I assumed everyone else was here for the same reason (hearing themselves type).

12/15/2005 10:42:57 PM

Quote :

"As a matter of being correct, to the best of my knowledge high tax rates do encourage illegality"

Prove it. Note we aren't talking about sales taxes.

Quote :

"My point is merely that France does not operate at maximum efficiency"

The GDP doesn't neccesarily reflect effciency.

12/15/2005 11:26:02 PM

Quote :

"scottncst8: and because i know you aren't going to drop it, explain legally enforced 35 hour work weeks in france, 2 hour siestas in spain, and across europe on average 2-3 times as much vacation time for workers compared to the US"

didn't those used to be called "spread the work" fallacies?

---

Quote :

"Kris: Prove it. Note we aren't talking about sales taxes."

http://www.lib.ncsu.edu/journals/

Go digging. His argument was straight from Econ 101...

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 11:36 PM. Reason : ---]

12/15/2005 11:35:40 PM

Quote :

"You said it yourself, legally enforced 35 hour work week, legally mandated vacation time, etc. You have no choice but to take a vacation, no choice but to work only 35 hours, no choice, no choice."

You may be unaware of this fact, but France is a democracy. I assure you that the general populace has quite a bit of choice regarding the limitations set on work hours. Every now and again under dire circumstances someone may need to work a little more, and I'm sure they find a way to make ends meet. Saying no one works more than 35 hours there is like saying no one in the US works for less than 5.25. However, the French culture as a whole has decided that the 35 hour work week is best. The point here being that they prefer the 35 hour work week. It's not some disease or useless leftover archaic custom. The French are fully aware of the fact that if they worked 5-10 more hours a week they would have more "stuff", and they have selected not to work those extra hours. The US economic system isn't "better" because we make more stuff, its just different strokes for different folks.

Quote :

"In some cases, these are things you need to live, and American's can afford such "luxeries" as not dying when a heat-wave settles in. More than 3000 Frenchmen died in the heatwave of 2003, hurricane Katrina claimed less than 1/3rd that number. When a far more severe heatwave hit Chicago in 1995 the deathtoll was in the hundreds, the vast majority of which were the result of a power outage in the affluent North Side."

I'm going to go ahead and guess you've never lived in Europe. You can go ahead and make the arguement that deaths from the heatwave were caused by the "inefficient" european economic system, but be prepared to be laughed at by anyone with half a brain who has lived in europe. And comparing deaths from a heat wave on one continent to a hurricane on another continent? You can't be serious.


TGD: I promise you, the economic minister of France isn't sitting around hoping that the limitation on work hours per week is somehow decreasing his unemployment.

[Edited on December 15, 2005 at 11:55 PM. Reason : .]

12/15/2005 11:50:33 PM

Quote :

"I promise you, the economic minister of France isn't sitting around hoping that the limitation on work hours per week is somehow decreasing his unemployment. "

The non existing economic minister isnt doing a damn thing but the budget and finance ministers are bitching that the law has been disastrous for the economy.

[Edited on December 16, 2005 at 12:24 AM. Reason : ]

12/16/2005 12:21:44 AM

Quote :

"His argument was straight from Econ 101..."

I took econ 101. Never once did I hear that "raising taxes causes crime". In fact, never once did I hear anything about crime, mainly because it has nothing to do with the subject matter that ECON 101 covers.

Now please, don't just give me a link to google,

Quote :

"Prove it. Note we aren't talking about sales taxes."

12/16/2005 12:48:20 AM

Comparing France to South Carolina on the same scale is preposterous. One does not generally drive around France and get the overwhelming sense that "this is a shithole." Perhaps they are directly comparable in that both income measures are likely driven down by the local minority legacies.

As to the 35 hour work week: well, the French are the French, after all. South Carolina would secede from the union tomorrow and wallow in their own economic isolation forever if they were given the choice. It's a bit difficult to compare cultural standards on the basis of per capita income; it being, after all, basically an average measure.

12/16/2005 1:03:18 AM

Quote :

"The non existing economic minister isnt doing a damn thing but the budget and finance ministers are bitching that the law has been disastrous for the economy."

Despite my not going and looking up the official title for the finance and budget minister, my point still stands.

12/16/2005 8:50:23 AM

So, scottncst8, what we have here is the people of France got together and decided, collectively, that "we want fewer choices!" So be it, I never said "why" they had such labor restrictions, it was not my intention of doing so. My intent was to point out the effects such policies have on a minority of French citizens. The numbers speak for themselves, take them or leave them. My point was that I believed the restrictive labor practices were examples of tyranny of the majority. "We voted to legally secure about 80% of our jobs, all we had to do was sacrifice about 10% of the population to permanent unemployment!" Of course they have a majority of the vote, who wouldn't vote to protect themselves?

Quote :

"And comparing deaths from a heat wave on one continent to a hurricane on another continent? You can't be serious."

You couldn't read ONE more sentence? I am comparing the heatwave in Paris of 2003 to the heatwave of Chicago in 1995. The Chicago wave was worse and lasted longer with a death toll in the hundreds (mostly from a power outage in the affluent North Side). Meanwhile, the French authorities reported a death toll in excess of 3000 citizens (mostly the less well off and not attributable to a power failure).

Quote :

"You can go ahead and make the arguement that deaths from the heatwave were caused by the "inefficient" european economic system,"

Well, you've heard my theory. The mean summer temperatures in Paris are very close to those of Detroit, Chicago and Denver, yet residential air-conditioning rates in these American cities is dramtically higher. What is your theory? American's are simply more adverse to uncomfortable temperatures?
When you say "they have simply chosen to consume less" you must realize we are not just talking about new cars or bid TVs or fancy computers. We are taking about kitchen appliances, food choice, and living space. Is it not curious why America's poorest 10% on average have a larger home than the average French citizen? To quote Olaf Gersemann, "They brush their teeth in the kitchen sink."

Was it a democratic decision? Of course. That doesn't make it the right decision. If allowed to work longer hours I'm certain the average French workweek would remain below America's or even the UK's. But to argue that bad economic policy is good economic policy simply because the people agreed to it is equally silly. Of course, you could argue that even if freedom resulted in better economic outcomes it would result in a poorer political situation, but I digress.

12/16/2005 10:11:31 AM