...where he complained about having to pay student fees that go to athletics.

He's also made it clear that--even though it comes at a greater economic cost than life in prison--he prefers the death penalty.

How can we argue with someone like this? How can I ever be expected to live peacefully with a man who would rather put his money towards killing folks over student athletics?

12/24/2005 2:11:58 PM

I think you're oversimplifying...a lot

and wouldn't you rather him have reasons for supporting the death penalty besides the economic bottom line? THAT would be scary.

12/24/2005 2:14:30 PM

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/composition.html

12/24/2005 2:18:12 PM

theDuke, you're a smart man. Maybe you can get inside GrumpyGOP's head and explain to me his thinking.

Can you give me a better interpretation of his opinions? One that doesn't make him look scary as fuck?

12/24/2005 2:24:49 PM

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:29 PM. Reason : gg]

12/24/2005 2:26:10 PM

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:29 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 2:26:34 PM

Okay, so I reread your link, and it doesn't apply here, TGD. Nice try though.

I'm not assuming things about GrumpyGOP, and I'm not trying to stuff him in a box where I get to apply characteristics to him. These are characteristics that he has revealed himself. The fact that you think this is a fallazy of composition frightens me. Maybe you posted the wrong link or something?

These (death penalty/athletics) are two views that he has expressed, and I'm trying to rationalize them. I can't.

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:31 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 2:29:09 PM

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: I'm not assuming things about GrumpyGOP, and I'm not trying to stuff him in a box where I get to apply characteristics to him. These are characteristics that he has revealed himself. The fact that you think this is a fallazy of composition frightens me. Maybe you posted the wrong link or something?"

The Composition Fallacy isn't just about characteristics: it's drawing a conclusion for a whole based on conclusions of the parts, with no justification for the inference.

---

Quote :

"BridgetSPK: These (death penalty/athletics) are two views that he has expressed, and I'm trying to rationalize them. I can't."

yes, hence the fallacy because you're conflating the two.

has he ever said that he'd prefer his money going to executions rather than student athletics?


[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:34 PM. Reason : ---]

12/24/2005 2:31:31 PM

Hmmmm...

He made it clear that he doesn't want any of his money going to student athletics at a public school.

He also made it clear that, regardless of the cost, he thinks society needs the death penalty.

So...help me out, TGD, what conclusions can we draw about GrumpyGOP from these two assertions?

Am I the only one who thinks something doesn't add up here?

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:38 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 2:36:38 PM

that he doesn't want to pay for student athletics. at the same time, he is OK with killing violent criminals. wow, what a crazy fucking concept!

12/24/2005 2:38:51 PM

Okay, folks, a man is willing to support the death penalty with his taxes but not student athletics.

Apparently this idea makes perfect sense to some of you.

It does not make sense to me at all.

If you're like me, and think GrumpyGOP seems insane, post here so I can find out how far off I am.

(By the way, thanks for explaining the composition fallacy to me, TGD.)

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 2:49 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 2:48:23 PM

Quote :

"Okay, folks, a man is willing to support the death penalty with his taxes but not student athletics. Apparently this idea makes perfect sense to some of you. It does not make sense to me at all."

It's called preference. You are assuming that the reasoning for supporting one item and not another is based on the exact same reasons, when it's clear that it isn't the case.

12/24/2005 3:00:45 PM

^No, I get that. TGD helped a playa out.

Now, does it make sense to you, 1337b4k4? Are you conservative enough to oppose public-funded student athletics and simultaneously "moral" enough to wanna shell out loot for the continued use of the death penalty?

12/24/2005 3:08:17 PM

this thread boggles my mind, however, im not surprised grumpy hasnt bothered replying.

12/24/2005 3:23:27 PM

Are you being sarcastic when you say this thread boggles your mind?

12/24/2005 3:25:39 PM

lets just say im not a fan of your conclusions. read any other post in the thread to see why.

12/24/2005 3:32:11 PM

i dont understand where the conflict it
i mean i dont agree with him, but i dont understand why his opinion is so confusing

12/24/2005 3:32:20 PM

Quote :

"Now, does it make sense to you, 1337b4k4? Are you conservative enough to oppose public-funded student athletics and simultaneously "moral" enough to wanna shell out loot for the continued use of the death penalty?"

What the fuck does being conservative or moral have to do with anything. Here's how it works:

I don't participate in school athletics, nor do I derive any direct or indirect bennefit from having them or paying for them, therefore I don't want to pay for them to be executed.

I do derrive an idirect bennefit from killing murderers, namely one less murderer in the world, therefore I don't mind paying for them.

Just like presumeably you don't mind paying to go to school, but you have issues with paying for me to go to school.


PS: If you don't mind paying for me to go to school, please contact me for instructions as to how you can send me my $8,000 tuition.

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 3:43 PM. Reason : ps]

12/24/2005 3:42:46 PM

See...that's where you look like an idiot. EVEN IF YOU DON'T WATCH SPORTS, PLAY THEM, ENJOY THEM, OR WHATEVER, YOU STILL DERIVE INDIRECT BENEFIT FROM THEM. EXPAND YOUR MIND AND THINK ABOUT IT. GET BACK TO ME.

As far as the benefits of the death penalty go, I don't see them. It seems to me like life in prison benefits society more than the death penalty because life in prison is cheaper. Life in prison removes the threat from society and is also cheaper. What more could you ask for? Besides rehabilitation...

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 3:50 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 3:48:09 PM

Quote :

"EVEN IF YOU DON'T WATCH SPORTS, PLAY THEM, ENJOY THEM, OR WHATEVER, YOU STILL DERIVE INDIRECT BENEFIT FROM THEM. EXPAND YOUR MIND AND THINK ABOUT IT. GET BACK TO ME."

How so? Do they reduce crime by giving students something to do? Or maybe they increase it by giving us something to get angry about...

12/24/2005 3:51:36 PM

Quote :

"See...that's where you look like an idiot. EVEN IF YOU DON'T WATCH SPORTS, PLAY THEM, ENJOY THEM, OR WHATEVER, YOU STILL DERIVE INDIRECT BENEFIT FROM THEM. EXPAND YOUR MIND AND THINK ABOUT IT. GET BACK TO ME."

And those bennefits being what? Recall that for something to be a bennefit I actualy have to care about having it.

Quote :

"As far as the benefits of the death penalty go, I don't see them. It seems to me like life in prison benefits society more than the death penalty because life in prison is cheaper. Life in prison removes the threat from society and is also cheaper. What more could you ask for? Besides rehabilitation..."

Quote :

"See...that's where you look like an idiot. EVEN IF YOU DON'T WATCH SPORTS, PLAY THEM, ENJOY THEM, OR WHATEVER, LIKE KILLING MURDERERS OR THINK THEY SHOULDN"T BE KILLED YOU STILL DERIVE INDIRECT BENEFIT FROM THEM. EXPAND YOUR MIND AND THINK ABOUT IT. GET BACK TO ME."

V Probably, but that would just prove my point.

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 3:55 PM. Reason : V]

12/24/2005 3:52:33 PM

Maybe she doesn't care about the effects of the killing murderers.

12/24/2005 3:53:44 PM

Okay, GoldenViper and b4k4, I'm about to say something stupid:

What's the difference between killing someone and locking them away forever?

How does the killing come with benefits that the locking away can't provide?

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 4:05 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 4:00:51 PM

Not stupid, IMNSHO.

IIRC, the grumpster is worried about murderers escaping and killing again.

12/24/2005 4:04:12 PM

Wow! I didn't know that was a concern. It takes us fifteen years to kill them.

Do you know whether or not he's concerned about an escape during those 15 years?

Does he want to skip the lengthy appeals process in order to ensure these guys have no chance to escape and kill again?

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 4:08 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 4:07:43 PM

Btw, I guess there's also the revenge/justice thing.

Some folks find it more emotionally satisfying if the murderer dies.

12/24/2005 4:12:42 PM

athletics that shouldnt be in college get a free ride, to get there Afro American Studies degree, or there Parks, Tourism, and Recreation degree, or even communications, or maybe something in PE....


we help them get noticed, then they go to the PROs and make lots of money....

12/24/2005 4:16:06 PM

^Hey, roddy, your ass is bare. You better cover it up. Quick.

^^I wish I could find the stats with regards to victim's families that are disgusted when the death of a loved one is compounded by the death of the criminal.

I was hoping someone woud mention the revenge factor because I don't think the government should be in the business of doling out revenge.

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 4:19 PM. Reason : sss]

12/24/2005 4:18:06 PM

Quote :

"I was hoping someone woud mention the revenge factor because I don't think the government should be in the business of doling out revenge."

Well I agree of course.

It is one of the "benefits," though, at least for some folks.

12/24/2005 4:21:01 PM

roddy, for every unqualified black student that's here because of race, there's an unqualified white student who's here because he grew up in the country.

12/24/2005 4:22:19 PM

If they play good basketball we don't really give a damn what race they are or where they come from.

12/24/2005 4:24:56 PM

roddy seems to be getting his arguments mixed up. Unqialified students who play sports make huge sacrifices. It's the unqualified students who don't play sports that he should object to.

12/24/2005 4:26:50 PM

Quote :

"Unqialified students who play sports make huge sacrifices."

They also often end up making $texas and probably do well with the ladies.

12/24/2005 4:29:31 PM

check out the wolfline student fee

do you ride that?

12/24/2005 4:34:14 PM

GoldenViper, please tell me you're joking. Going pro is a pipe dream for most of these students.

12/24/2005 4:36:31 PM

I bet they still have a better chance of making millions than people in my major do.

And folks on the basketball team are hella popular.

Sorry, no way anyone could make me feel sorry for 'em.

EDIT: They are getting paid less than they should be, though, at least according to those economists claiming the NCAA is a cartel.

[Edited on December 24, 2005 at 4:55 PM. Reason : cartel]

12/24/2005 4:42:08 PM

haha, Grumpy's ignorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrin u

12/24/2005 4:49:05 PM

id say killing murderers frees up some prison space too, which we could use.

12/24/2005 4:54:57 PM

changin the drug laws would free up some space, too

12/24/2005 4:56:58 PM

Quote :

"What's the difference between killing someone and locking them away forever? How does the killing come with benefits that the locking away can't provide?"

1) Last I looked up the numbers (and it's been about a year) the average life sentence is served in about 20 years. And that isn't because most of them wind up dying in prison.

2) Theres the whole one less body to house, mouth to feed, person to worry about.

3) It can be quick and more efficient.

Quote :

"Does he want to skip the lengthy appeals process in order to ensure these guys have no chance to escape and kill again?"

Yes and no.

Quote :

"I was hoping someone woud mention the revenge factor because I don't think the government should be in the business of doling out revenge. "

But, the government should be in the business of protecting it's citizens and serving it's citizens.

Quote :

"changin the drug laws would free up some space, too"

Irellevant to the conversation at hand.

12/24/2005 5:02:55 PM

Didn't you start a thread yesterday about the death penalty, Bridget?

12/24/2005 5:04:51 PM

haha irrelevant

african or asian?

12/24/2005 5:09:32 PM

yeah, i was listing it as more of an added bonus than anything else. im against the death penalty more to avoid incorrect convictions than anything else (that matters more to me than most other factors in the case, sorry if i like to simplify). i understand the counterpoint of criminals being released to kill other innocents, but i dont weigh that the same. not an easy issue, but this thread isnt really discussing that anyway.

12/24/2005 5:12:45 PM

chembob, I did not start a thread about the death penalty yesterday.

12/24/2005 5:28:53 PM

Quote :

"1) Last I looked up the numbers (and it's been about a year) the average life sentence is served in about 20 years. And that isn't because most of them wind up dying in prison. 2) Theres the whole one less body to house, mouth to feed, person to worry about. 3) It can be quick and more efficient."

1) That's why God invented life without parole.

2) I would mention the economic differences, but I'm sure you've heard them before.

3) If we ARE going to kill people, we better be goddamn sure they did what we think they did. Due process is a bitch.

12/24/2005 5:41:52 PM

^Thank you.

Those are all typical arguments that b4k4 should have known, but he didn't. Why?

12/24/2005 5:47:22 PM

He knows them, but the death penalty has a considerable value to him so they don't matter.

It's pretty fucking simple.

12/24/2005 5:50:04 PM

Quote :

"1) That's why God invented life without parole. "

I should have made it clear that that number included ALL life sentences including without parole.

Quote :

"2) I would mention the economic differences, but I'm sure you've heard them before. 3) If we ARE going to kill people, we better be goddamn sure they did what we think they did. Due process is a bitch."

That doesn't mean the current system is efficient or optimal.

12/24/2005 5:52:31 PM

Do you have a source for that statistic? I'd be interested in seeing it.

Do you think a person convicted of murder at 18 deserves to be in prison when he's 90? I'm not saying I don't, I'm just curious as to your position on the matter.

12/24/2005 6:00:04 PM

Quote :

"Do you have a source for that statistic? I'd be interested in seeing it. "

I don't at the moment, it was a almost a year or so ago when I last looked up the numbers.

Quote :

"Do you think a person convicted of murder at 18 deserves to be in prison when he's 90? I'm not saying I don't, I'm just curious as to your position on the matter."

In my personal opinion, it depends on the circumstances surrounding the murder but in most cases, particularly where we're talking about first degree murder, yes. When you chose to kill someone, you chose to spend the rest of your life in jail (or idealy you chose to forfit your life).

12/24/2005 10:20:40 PM