http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007761#1

Quote :

"If we told you that an organization gave away more than $65 million last year to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, Amnesty International, AIDS Walk Washington and dozens of other such advocacy groups, you'd probably assume we were describing a liberal philanthropy. In fact, those expenditures have all turned up on the financial disclosure report of the National Education Association, the country's largest teachers union."

1/3/2006 9:18:45 PM

OH DEAR

[Edited on January 3, 2006 at 9:26 PM. Reason : I'm not sure if this is a bad thing or a good thing or just a thing that happened.]

1/3/2006 9:26:00 PM

and?

1/3/2006 9:33:16 PM

and?

1/3/2006 9:38:18 PM

and?

1/3/2006 9:42:08 PM

youre either advocating the teacher's union for NC, or youre saying its a bad thing that they gave money to an alliance against defamation and to help fight AIDS. The emphasis on Jesse Jackson leads me to assume that they are trying to pain this as a BAD thing (cause conservatives cant get enough of talking about him and hillary).

if youre saying its bad to fight defamation, human rights violations, and AIDS, then fuck you.

1/3/2006 10:05:01 PM

Quote :

"AIDS Walk Washington and dozens of other such advocacy groups"

Stupid AIDS bashers

1/3/2006 10:07:29 PM

WHY WOULD TEACHERS EVER SUPPORT TOLERANCE, DIVERSITY, HOPE, OR THE FUTURE???

1/3/2006 10:45:15 PM

man, I'm glad they got that school thing all fixed up so they can spend money on these things...

1/3/2006 11:29:54 PM

i think most organizations give money like this every year

1/3/2006 11:32:19 PM

I am outraged by this for one reason: Teacher salaries are already too low before they are forced to hand over this $65 million to causes they may or may not support. Whether they support the cause or not is not at issue, but this money could have been spent on teaching supplies or better living standards.

1/3/2006 11:37:14 PM

Quote :

"WHY WOULD TEACHERS EVER SUPPORT TOLERANCE, DIVERSITY, HOPE, OR THE FUTURE???"

If it is their primary goal then they should shut the fuck up about pay raises and school conditions. This union was supposed to promote a better education system and teachers' benefits, but they are diverting money to political targets with realistic tie to said goals. This is the problem with special interest groups that get too large: bloat and abuse. I'd be pissed if I was a teacher and saw money going to something other than what I would logically assume it would go to.

Quote :

"I am outraged by this for one reason: Teacher salaries are already too low before they are forced to hand over this $65 million to causes they may or may not support. Whether they support the cause or not is not at issue, but this money could have been spent on teaching supplies or better living standards."

What should teacher salaries be at, just curious what you would consider fair for a national average?

[Edited on January 3, 2006 at 11:38 PM. Reason : .]

1/3/2006 11:37:26 PM

Quote :

"This union was supposed to promote a better education system and teachers' benefits, but they are diverting money to political targets with realistic tie to said goals"

ok
you're either one of two things here

1. naive
2. hopelessly optimistic

the teachers support the (_______)
then (_______) supports the teachers

now, you can replace "the teachers" with

"politicians"

and thats how the whole thing works!

gotta pay to play

1/3/2006 11:53:02 PM

OMG FAGOATRY!

1/4/2006 12:31:34 AM

only the government should be able to waste money gained from extortion

1/4/2006 12:34:48 AM

Public teachers average about $60k in California, and they are almost impossible to fire after they get their tenure. Tenure only takes 2 years.

Plus they get a shit-ton of time off.

This past summer in California, the teachers union in conjunction with nurses and firefighters spent over $100 million dollars in an aggressive ad campaign to slander and defame Arnold Schwartzeneggar. Why? Because on Arnold's special election, he called for changing the tenure process to 5 years and allowing teachers to opt out of having to pay union dues for political reasons. Once he threatened their money supply, the unions went apeshit.

Recently a study came out blaming major problems in the public school system on shitty teachers who just get shipped from school to school because schools can't fire them. The California Teachers Union lambasted the independent study, saying that it would just add to "hysteria" when the "real problem" is underfunding.

1/4/2006 1:03:34 AM

that special election in California pissed me off

because I simply dont understand how anyone who wasnt directly self-interested could have been against those proposals

1/4/2006 1:18:19 AM

100 Million plus in attack ads will kill a guy's reputation.

So will frontpage LA Times articles everyday for 2 months leading up to the election about Arnold's connections to evil billion-dollar corporations.

In the end, the special election was billed as a power grab for Arnold, and the people voted [no]

Just shows that people will believe anything they see on TV.

1/4/2006 1:25:17 AM

^well it did show, once again, how stupid and easily fooled the general public is so at least that means the republicans will probably continue to gain seats in 06

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 1:41 AM. Reason : ]

1/4/2006 1:33:58 AM

AIDS is a liberal cause

From what I've heard the NC Teachers' Association is pretty good at getting things done. It pretty much serves as our union since we're disallowed from forming a real one.

1/4/2006 2:31:26 AM

Quote :

"I am outraged by this for one reason: Teacher salaries are already too low before they are forced to hand over this $65 million to causes they may or may not support. Whether they support the cause or not is not at issue, but this money could have been spent on teaching supplies or better living standards."

I agree with this. I don't know why anyone would be against any of these causes or against the teachers association donating to them, but my girlfriend's a teacher, and for working almost straight through every day, barely getting a chance to pee, and not getting anywhere near a 30 minute lunch break, and getting paid less than $30,000, they deserve ALOT more.

Now, the nc gov. is trying to get nc teachers up to the national average, and that's good, but they're still underpaid.

1/4/2006 9:08:52 AM

Quote :

"WHY WOULD TEACHERS EVER SUPPORT TOLERANCE, DIVERSITY, HOPE, OR THE FUTURE???"

That being said...

Do you HAVE TO be in the union if you're a teacher in California?

1/4/2006 10:25:20 AM

Wait, so DirtyGreek agrees with me that it is wrong for low paid teachers to have their meager salaries extorted away and spent on "other things"?

I have the clear this up, I might need to say three hail-marrys tonight.

1/4/2006 10:25:42 AM

Quote :

"Do you HAVE TO be in the union if you're a teacher in California?"

Probably not, but if it operated anything like my graduate student union, UAW Local 2322, even if you don't join the union, you still have to pay them a small percentage, at our school somewhere between .5% to 1% (can't remember exactly), since you "benefited from the collective bargaining agreement."

They get your money either way. Might as well pay the extra couple of bucks each month and get the parking discount.

1/4/2006 11:03:19 AM

Quote :

"I agree with this. I don't know why anyone would be against any of these causes or against the teachers association donating to them, but my girlfriend's a teacher, and for working almost straight through every day, barely getting a chance to pee, and not getting anywhere near a 30 minute lunch break, and getting paid less than $30,000, they deserve ALOT more. Now, the nc gov. is trying to get nc teachers up to the national average, and that's good, but they're still underpaid."

Yep, that's pretty much my wife's daily life as well.

1/4/2006 11:07:01 AM

Quote :

"Probably not, but if it operated anything like my graduate student union, UAW Local 2322, even if you don't join the union, you still have to pay them a small percentage, at our school somewhere between .5% to 1% (can't remember exactly), since you "benefited from the collective bargaining agreement.""

WTF? What if I think I lost because of that? Do I have the right to have that opinion?

1/4/2006 11:35:54 AM

Teacher, with no additional degree should make around 28-30k.

Masters get 40,

PH'D get 50.

If you don't agree with that then go back to school and get those degree's. Most of the teachers I've had in school, including college, do not deserve what they are getting paid.

To have the gaul to think that a teacher with no additional education or degree's should get $40,000 a year in NC is retarded in my opinion.

1/4/2006 11:36:00 AM

Quote :

"Teacher, with no additional degree should make around 28-30k. "

look up what they actually make here, chief. especially the first 10 years.

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 11:40 AM. Reason : *]

1/4/2006 11:40:02 AM

Here is how union dues work in California according to a teacher here:

http://educationwonk.blogspot.com/2005/01/union-nonsense-california-teachers.html

Quote :

" * Even if I choose to not formally join the union, because nearly all California school districts are "closed shops" I cannot withhold dues. An equal amount will be taken out of my paycheck by the district, whose hands are tied by the law. Since dues have been going up every year, the combined union dues will reach well over $900.00 this year. *The rank and file have no say in how much those dues will be, as we are never given an opportunity to vote for any proposed increase. * Union officers are not elected by the membership at either the state or national levels. A secretive (and appointed by the President) "nominating committee" prepares a slate of "approved" candidates for union office. The slate of "candidates" is then presented to a convention of union activists who rubber-stamp the nominees. As only one candidate appears on the ballot, all union "elections" are uncontested and therefore mere formalities. * Neither national, state, nor local unions ever poll their membership regarding dues increases, political positions, or endorsements of political candidates. (Almost always, both CTA and NEA endorse candidates of the Democratic Party. The union will not disclose to its membership how much those candidates receive in the form of P.A.C. money.) * The salaries of union officers and operatives are not disclosed to the membership, and we here at the 'Wonks have been trying to learn how they receive in compensation for several months, but to no avail. * Both national and state unions refuse to disclose their expenditures to members, despite repeated requests by ourselves and others. * Salaried Union honchos (and this includes national and state officers as well as full-time operatives) enjoy lifetime free health insurance, a benefit that very few classroom teachers receive, even after decades of service."

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 11:52 AM. Reason : ]

1/4/2006 11:51:54 AM

I really really think the whole closed shop thing, for teachers or not, is completely wrong. I'm all for the right to organize, but I think part of that includes the right to choose to not organize if you don't want to.

1/4/2006 11:53:36 AM

^^ That is outrageous! Surely someone can put a stop to this!?!?

Quote :

"you still have to pay them a small percentage, at our school somewhere between .5% to 1% (can't remember exactly), since you "benefited from the collective bargaining agreement.""

So, if I am rendered unemployable by union activity, am I entitled to compensation?

1/4/2006 12:04:53 PM

The solution is simple. Right to work laws, like we have in NC. Unions die when people have the choice to participate financially, or not.

1/4/2006 12:28:36 PM

Quote :

"Wait, so DirtyGreek agrees with me that it is wrong for low paid teachers to have their meager salaries extorted away and spent on "other things"? I have the clear this up, I might need to say three hail-marrys tonight."

why in the WORLD wouldn't I agree?

1/4/2006 12:34:52 PM

Quote :

"WTF? What if I think I lost because of that? Do I have the right to have that opinion?"

I can hear their response now: "You have the right to that opinion, but you still have to cough up the money." Maybe if you opt out of all TA and RA positions funded by the University, or that's what the unions would say. At least UAW 2322 charged us less if we didn't join (the .5% - 1% versus 3%... wish I could remember the amount). It sounds like California's teachers don't get that option.

1/4/2006 12:49:02 PM

Well, it's not really a "response" if the latter is required to come with some substance. It's pure extortion. Unions are generally evil. I think it has been well understood for quite some time.

1/4/2006 12:58:47 PM

Quote :

"To have the gaul to think that a teacher with no additional education or degree's should get $40,000 a year in NC is retarded in my opinion."

And this is one of the biggest reasons that NC is so far behind in education. I mean, you have college students who can't even spell four letter words like "gall" correctly.

1/4/2006 1:00:44 PM

Quote :

"Teacher, with no additional degree should make around 28-30k. "

Base pay in NC is well below that. Wealthy counties will add money on top of that, but some won't.


And why do some of you think that teachers with bachelors should get less than everyone else who gets a bachelors, even when our job is more demanding than 90%* of what's out there?


*I'm basing this on what teachers who have come in from gov't, business, and industry have told me.

1/4/2006 1:09:55 PM

Okay, with the power of the mighty Google and a few union and university websites, I've got some information to help clarify the entire "Agency Fee" concept.

Agency Fees are collected by the Union to help recoup the cost of negotiating and administering the collective bargaining agreement. The amount they charge you is supposed to cover your share of just these costs and isn't supposed to go to the Union's other activities. Depending on state, if you opt out, you should get an annual report certified by a CPA from the Union explaining where the Union spent it's money that year (oddly, Union members typically do NOT get a copy of this).

The idea is that since they negotiated on your behalf for your salary and benefits, you have to pay at least for the negotiation and administration portion. Most, if not all states, enforce this by law. Dues are automatically garnished from your wages like Social Security and Medicare.

For most states, the only way you can opt out is to be a member of a religious organization that has traditionally spoke out against joining these sorts of civic organizations. In that case, you still have to cough up the money, but you can donate it to charity instead.

Oh, and UAW 2322 of Amherst, MA charges 2% dues to Union members or an 1.52% Agency Fee to non-union members.

1/4/2006 1:16:13 PM

^^don't private school teachers typically make less than their public school counterparts

Im not sure how anyone would be able to tell what the actual market wage for teachers should be considering how distorted the picture is but given that I would imagine that teachers do recieve more pay than they would if they were operating in a competitive environment

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 1:24 PM. Reason : ]

1/4/2006 1:23:34 PM

Quote :

"To have the gaul to think that a teacher with no additional education or degree's should get $40,000 a year in NC is retarded in my opinion."

Quote :

"look up what they actually make here, chief. especially the first 10 years."

http://www.ncpublicschools.org/salary_admin/salsched05-06.pdf

Below is what people earn with 10 years of experience. First number is what they earn for 10 months salary and the second is if they worked a full 12. It also shows the National Board for Professional Teacher Standards certification. This does not include any extra earnings from teaching summer school or heading other programs in the school.

			10 mo.	12 mo.
Batch/Cert		35,220	41,090
Batch/Cert+NBPTS	39,450	46,025
		
Masters/Cert		38,740	45,197
Masters/Cert+NBPTS	43,390	50,622
		
Adv/Cert		40,000	46,667
Adv/Cert+NBPTS		44,650	52,091
		
PhD/Cert		41,270	48,148
PhD/Cert+NBPTS		45,920	53,573

1/4/2006 1:32:49 PM

technically "gaul" is spelled right

if you're talking about french shit

1/4/2006 1:42:10 PM

Quote :

"And why do some of you think that teachers with bachelors should get less than everyone else who gets a bachelors, even when our job is more demanding than 90%* of what's out there?"

I would say most of it has to do with personal experience with teachers in the past. Like the Anatamoy and Physiology teacher I was a Lab Tech for back in High School. She had a Lab Tech for 5 of her 6 classes. We graded every homework and quiz, entered them in the book and the computer, and of course set up and took down every single lab. All of her transparencies that she used were the same ones she has always used in the 20 years she'd been teaching. She would get pissed as hell if one got a smudge because it meant she actually had to do something (rewrite 2 words). Every quiz, test, handout, worksheet, etc. that she uses is the same one she used the previous years. Her job never changes and she literally doesn't do anything other than stand up there and rotate the transparencies.

Now of course she was probably the worst end of the spectrum in terms of laziness but to some degree people see similar things in other teachers (repeated nature of their materials and such). My favorite (and best) teacher never had any transparencies or handouts. He simply stood up there and talked about history. He did have a PhD and knew his shit backwards and forwards. He did tests like a college professor: would write 10-20 random subjects for ID's and then 2 essay questions. But to be honest he had very little "work" because there wasn't really homework and he didn't have to prepare for lessons (would just ask the last thing he mentioned the day before).

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 1:58 PM. Reason : .]

1/4/2006 1:46:06 PM

well that's a damned sight more than she's getting in gaston county schools, i'll tell you that. her take home pay is downright pitiful.

1/4/2006 3:09:19 PM

^^omg there's a few bad apples! They don't deserve anything! If only we could apply this rationale to business executives!

Also, your experience has been colored by the fact that you've probably only taken honors/AP. All these teachers that didn't have to do much work for your class had to do a significant amount of work for their standards classes.

Standard classes wouldn't sit through (to paraphrase) "some gay-ass history teacher lecturing on and on and on about stupid crap they don't even need to know." You need to babysit them and come up with activities to effectively teach them w/o boring them to death.

Also, there's a very significant difference between first year teacher salaries and 10th year. Why don't you post the former? Disregarding even that, if a private business wanted to pay me just barely over 50k when I had a terminal degree, certification in my field, and 10 years experience, I'd laugh at them. Same goes for 35k with a BA and ten years experience.

Let me ask you this for comparison purposes:

If I were a private sector manager with ~120 workers under me, how much should I expect to earn?

1/4/2006 4:00:22 PM

Quote :

"If I were a private sector manager with ~120 workers under me, how much should I expect to earn? "

Thats going to be true for any type of public service job, generals are not going to make as much as CEOs, public defenders and prosecutors are not going to make as much as lawyers at a large firm, IRS accountants dont make as much as private accountants

And even though those jobs are much closer to thier private sector equivalent and the pay discrepancy is actually larger they dont seem to complain nearly as much as teachers.

[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 4:22 PM. Reason : ]

1/4/2006 4:17:10 PM

Accountants and Generals are still payed well, even if it's below what they could make in the private sector. The key here is that there is a viable private sector available to these professions.

Public defenders are indeed paid way below what they deserve, but again, there's a very viable private sector to enter whenever they want to. One that will more than cover the few years they spent in "poverty," making teachers' wages.

1/4/2006 4:35:22 PM

look folks, I watched my gf teach music to 1st graders for 45 minutes monday, and I felt more tired WATCHING her do that than I usually do after half a day at my job. she deserves like twice what she makes, if not more, and I'm not just saying that because I'd reap the benefits

1/4/2006 4:47:27 PM

Quote :

"^^omg there's a few bad apples! They don't deserve anything! If only we could apply this rationale to business executives! Also, your experience has been colored by the fact that you've probably only taken honors/AP. All these teachers that didn't have to do much work for your class had to do a significant amount of work for their standards classes."

Anatomy and Physiology is not honors/AP. Not every class I took was AP/honors. If all a person experiences in a system are bad apples and the stories that his or her acquaintances share involve mostly bad apples then one starts to wonder about the condition of the rest of the apples in the bushel given that so many apples seem to be bad. Perhaps if the apples were subject to a more rigours screening process their wouldn't be so many bad ones and people wouldn't mind paying for the higher quality produce.

Quote :

"Standard classes wouldn't sit through (to paraphrase) "some gay-ass history teacher lecturing on and on and on about stupid crap they don't even need to know." You need to babysit them and come up with activities to effectively teach them w/o boring them to death."

The history teacher you are talking about was in a standard class, onewhere he'd sometimes have to break up a couple of black kids that were rolling dice in the seats behind me.

Quote :

"Also, there's a very significant difference between first year teacher salaries and 10th year. Why don't you post the former? Disregarding even that, if a private business wanted to pay me just barely over 50k when I had a terminal degree, certification in my field, and 10 years experience, I'd laugh at them. Same goes for 35k with a BA and ten years experience."

I posted 10th year because that was what someone commented on. Starting salaries are always low and you see more standard pay with experience, shocking I know. Plus, an extra 2 months off ain't that bad of a deal. Once again, the average salary for teachers in NC is $44,000/$46,000 a year and that ain't exactly piss poor. Well known to have the best benefits too.

Quote :

"Let me ask you this for comparison purposes: If I were a private sector manager with ~120 workers under me, how much should I expect to earn?"

Depends on your field of business. We talking Food Lion with 120 stockers, baggers, and clerks or are we talking a software development company? Also, who do you think stands to lose their job quicker: a private sector manager who's sales staff who continuously fails to meet projected numbers or a teacher whose students fail to get acceptable test scores on a continued basis?

You can't blanket compare salaries with different professions. Its like saying an English or Psych major should have the same earning potential as a ChemE major out of college. There are just too many outside factors. When all is said and done teaching does not require specialized skill sets, unique training, or extensive knowledge. Nearly any professional can go into teaching with little effort (in terms of job requirements) but you can't just become a PE or Veterinarian overnight (oh and most vets make less than the average teacher despite being doctors). Plus, there are pretty much always jobs of some type available for teachers but if you are something like a CSC or BUS major then there is a good chance you work at Best Buy out of college.

Quote :

"Accountants and Generals are still payed well, even if it's below what they could make in the private sector. The key here is that there is a viable private sector available to these professions. Public defenders are indeed paid way below what they deserve, but again, there's a very viable private sector to enter whenever they want to. One that will more than cover the few years they spent in "poverty," making teachers' wages."

There is a viable private sector available for teachers They have their specific field of study and they have higher education. Heck, we just had one of our software developers leave to go teach electrical engineering crap at Nash County CC where he will be making his same pay (about $55,000) but working fewer hours and for only 9/10 months out of the 12 he had to work before.

Quote :

"look folks, I watched my gf teach music to 1st graders for 45 minutes monday, and I felt more tired WATCHING her do that than I usually do after half a day at my job. she deserves like twice what she makes, if not more, and I'm not just saying that because I'd reap the benefits"

Just because the job is taxing doesn't mean it deserves more pay. Hell, cops deal with far worse and make less than teachers. RN's, social workers, insurance adjusters, truck drivers, etc. all deal with stressful situations all day that are taxing but that alone does not dictate what they should be paid. Besides, dealing with clients and management is pretty much like handling a room full of 1st garders!



[Edited on January 4, 2006 at 5:01 PM. Reason : .]

1/4/2006 4:59:01 PM

Quote :

"Perhaps if the apples were subject to a more rigours screening process their wouldn't be so many bad ones and people wouldn't mind paying for the higher quality produce."

Perhaps if the states paid the apples a little more, and didn't fill each classroom with 35 little apples, they'd have more qualified apples apply.

Here's my anecdote: I just graduated from State with my teaching licensure. I went through a semester of student teaching, and did very well. However, I'm not planning on teaching if at all possible. Luckily my grades were good enough so I have other options available, and I'll pursue them before I even consider babysitting an overcrowded classroom for meager pay. Meager pay would be fine if I had low class sizes and could actually engage my students in learning, rather than babysit them. On the other hand, overcrowded classrooms would be ok, too; if they payed me enough. Both are not ok. So there; low pay and poor classroom environments has thus far kept at least one very qualified teacher out of our schools.

Quote :

"The history teacher you are talking about was in a standard class, one where he'd sometimes have to break up a couple of black kids that were rolling dice in the seats behind me."

Then this teacher was clearly not doing his job-- i.e. teaching all his students, not just the ones with enough self-motivation to pay attention to an hour long lecture.

Quote :

"Once again, the average salary for teachers in NC is $44,000/$46,000 a year and that ain't exactly piss poor."

It actually is, given teachers' charge.

Quote :

"Well known to have the best benefits too. "

The benefits are better than the pay, but that isn't saying much. They don't get optical or dental.

Quote :

"When all is said and done teaching does not require specialized skill sets, unique training, or extensive knowledge. Nearly any professional can go into teaching with little effort"

That's where you lost all credibility. Teaching in and of itself is a skill set. One that's much, much more important than subject knowledge. Have the average NCSU professor teach his subject in a high school and see how things go. Adolescent psychology, educational psychology, teaching methods, classroom management, etc... are not things that you can make up as you go.

1/4/2006 11:54:37 PM

Quote :

" Perhaps if the states paid the apples a little more, and didn't fill each classroom with 35 little apples, they'd have more qualified apples apply. "

This is backwards, teachers would get paid more if the job required more qualifications such as a more rigourous screening process. Higher qualifications increase the barriers to entry, reduce the supply of labor and in the end drive up wages.

1/5/2006 12:14:00 AM