Quote :

" Mexico gives migrants road map to U.S. MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- -- A Mexican government commission said Tuesday it will distribute at least 70,000 maps showing highways, rescue beacons and water tanks in the Arizona desert to curb the death toll among illegal border crossers. The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency with independent powers, denied the maps -- similar to a comic-style guide booklet Mexico distributed last year -- would encourage illegal immigration. Officials said the maps would help guide those in trouble too rescue beacons and areas with cell phone reception. The maps will also show the distance a person can walk in the desert in a single day. "We are not trying in any way to encourage or promote migration," said Mauricio Farah, one of the commission's national inspectors. "The only thing we are trying to do is warn them of the risks they face and where to get water, so they don't die." Russ Knocke, a spokesman for the U.S. Homeland Security Department, questioned whether the maps would keep those crossing the border safer. "It is not helpful for anyone, no matter how well intended they might be, to produce road maps that lead aliens into the desolate and dangerous areas along the border, and potentially invite criminal activity, human exploitation and personal risk," he said. Some advocates of greater immigration control were irritated by the map announcement. "What's next? Are they going to buy them bus tickets to Chicago?" said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based think tank. "It's clearly a bad thing for Mexico to be encouraging illegal immigration." The comic booklet for migrants was distributed by the government in early 2005 and warned of the perils of crossing illegally into the United States, while offering tips to stay safe. The booklet, of which about 1.5 million were printed, enraged some advocates of stricter immigration policies in the United States, who argue that it encouraged illegal migration. Farah said his commission was trying to prevent deaths and estimated that around 500 Mexicans died trying to cross the border in 2005. Many die in the desert, where summer temperatures soar above 100 degrees, and many drown while attempting to cross the Rio Grande. The commission plans to hang the poster-size maps in March in places where migrants will see them, such as migrant-aid groups, the commission's offices and in Mexican border towns. They were designed by the Tucson, Arizona-based rights group Humane Borders, which operates some of the desert water stations. The group previously distributed about 100 posters in the Mexican border town of Sasabe. The Rev. Robin Hoover, president of Humane Borders, said maps are needed in southern Mexico so migrants can weigh the risks before leaving home. Some of the posters have warnings, such as "Don't go. There isn't enough water," but officials conceded many migrants were unlikely to heed the advice. Knocke said the United States had increased personnel and surveillance along the border to discourage illegal crossings and immigrant smugglers. "Our message should be clear: we are securing our borders and we're dramatically increasing the likelihood of apprehensions," he said. Farah said migration "is a human right" and that "the United States should be grateful" the commission is doing something to curb the death toll, because "hundreds of thousands of Mexicans help maintain their economy." Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports, according to the country's central bank."

I don't visit the soap box that often, so this subject may have been beaten to death before, but now we're providing MAPS for illegal Immigrants? Are you kidding me?

Of course they try and cover themselves by saying it's not meant to be used, but just in case.

That's like saying, "here's the vault code to a bank in case you try and rob it, but remember, it's against the law to do it, but if you decide to, we don't want you to waste time"

Instead of just throwing more money at supporting illegal immigrants, maybe we should spend that money on new ways of keeping them out.

And like I said, if this topic has been done several times, I apologize.

1/25/2006 7:15:08 AM

Quote :

" Mexico gives migrants road map to U.S. MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- -- A Mexican government commission said Tuesday it will distribute at least 70,000 maps showing highways, rescue beacons and water tanks in the Arizona desert to curb the death toll among illegal border crossers."

1/25/2006 8:10:52 AM

well at least we will know where they are headed....border patrol i hope your listening

1/25/2006 8:23:43 AM

Way to get the country wrong, d00d...

1/25/2006 9:34:39 AM

Maybe he's a Mexican, racist

1/25/2006 9:36:16 AM

Signs point to no.

1/25/2006 9:40:33 AM

Quote :

"The comic booklet for migrants was distributed by the government in early 2005"

I wonder how much Coyote #1 is worth now? Anyone got an Overstreet?

1/25/2006 10:14:17 AM

I got mine signed by Vicente Fox before I jumped the border

1/25/2006 10:17:57 AM

theduke's point may need revising...

Quote :

"The commission plans to hang the poster-size maps in March in places where migrants will see them, such as migrant-aid groups, the commission's offices and in Mexican border towns. They were designed by the Tucson, Arizona-based rights group Humane Borders, which operates some of the desert water stations. The group previously distributed about 100 posters in the Mexican border town of Sasabe."

Do we really think these maps are just a safety measure? I'm inclined to.

[Edited on January 25, 2006 at 11:14 AM. Reason : sss]

1/25/2006 11:13:57 AM

this is one of those damned if you do damned if you dont... you either let people die un-informed, or you risk lessening the deterrance for movement ( which we assume is bad)

1/25/2006 11:19:41 AM

And by lessenning the deterrent, even more people may die.

Example: the maps aren't very good, but do reduce the risk of death from, say, 80% to 40%. However, Mexican's now believe entering America is safer, so many more attempt the trip, say three times more.
Well, if 1000 people tried before, and 800 died, now 3000 will try, and 1200 will die. All in all, releasing the maps increased the death toll by 50% in this purely theoretical example.

1/25/2006 12:55:52 PM

Quote :

"Instead of just throwing more money at supporting illegal immigrants, maybe we should spend that money on new ways of keeping them out."

Or how about instead we just fucking save all that money and let them into the country? You know, do something that's a little bit in line with American ideals for once in our fucking immigration policy.

Until we do that, you're goddamned right that I'll do what I can to help people who are just trying to find a better, safer life do so with a lower risk of dying in the process.

1/25/2006 2:53:48 PM

why would the mexican govt want their citizens to leave? don't they pay taxes or contribute to society?

maybe it's cause they come to the US and make money and send it back to family in mexico?

1/25/2006 2:55:16 PM

^You're right...but why should we care how they spend their earnings? They provided the cheap labor, right?

[Edited on January 25, 2006 at 4:05 PM. Reason : sss]

1/25/2006 4:04:42 PM

Make them legal immigrants and I'll be fine with it. But if we open up the border to Mexico, should we not also open it up to elsewhere?

1/25/2006 6:55:21 PM

Quote :

" why should we care how they spend their earnings?"

should I take the obvious shot here, or can we just agree that I have a point?

1/25/2006 7:08:51 PM

dude, its not like its a huge fucking concern. Did you read how many people died last year? FIVE HUNDRED FUCKING PEOPLE! So the mexican government is really just concerned about FIVE HUNDRED FUCKING PEOPLE and they aren't really trying to encourage immigration? suuuuuuuuuuure.

1/25/2006 9:10:44 PM

Quote :

"So the mexican government is really just concerned about FIVE HUNDRED FUCKING PEOPLE"

Yes.

They are.

More accurately, they're concerned about the thousands who attempt the crossing each year, each of whom takes great personal risk in doing so.

Quote :

" But if we open up the border to Mexico, should we not also open it up to elsewhere?"

Obviously. The only requirement should be a basic security and background check.

Quote :

"Make them legal immigrants and I'll be fine with it."

Bullshit position. If a law is unjust it must be broken.

1/25/2006 10:04:49 PM

How is it unjust? I have no problem with legal immigration. I have a BIG problem with illegal immigration. I don't care why they are coming here, they are doing it illegally. Considering they are doing it ILLEGALLY, I have ZERO sympathy for what happens to them in the desert. Serves them right for trying to cross illegally into our country.

1/25/2006 10:20:28 PM

have you ever been to Mexico? if you ever go, you may still hold the same positions on immigration, but i doubt you will ever blame another Mexican for doing whatever it takes to come here.

1/25/2006 10:30:05 PM

Sounds like a lot of tempest-tossed Mexicans are yearning to breathe free.

America is a nation of immigrants. Let them in...Check 'em over real good first...but let them in.

1/25/2006 11:46:44 PM

Quote :

" How is it unjust? I have no problem with legal immigration. I have a BIG problem with illegal immigration. I don't care why they are coming here, they are doing it illegally. Considering they are doing it ILLEGALLY, I have ZERO sympathy for what happens to them in the desert. Serves them right for trying to cross illegally into our country. "

You don't seem to understand what GrumpyGOP is saying.

Suppose a law was passed that banned smoking. Do you think this is a just law? Would it be morally "wrong" for someone to violate the law?

Is it morally wrong to cross a border?

Murder is morally wrong, assault is morally wrong, stealing is morally wrong, even abortion is at least ethically wrong. But, illegally crossing a border is not immoral.

1/26/2006 12:57:10 AM

Quote :

"How is it unjust?"

Pffft!

Excuse me, I just spit beer all over the keyboard, give me a moment.



OK, I'm ready now.

How is it unjust that the US immigration policy is blatantly biased towards people that have the time (and thus, they money) to devote towards going through the process, to the exclusion of people that have the greatest need of entry into the country?

You're an absolute bastard. It's as though the question of whether or not immigration laws are just never entered your mind. You just inherently equate illegal with wrong. You're not only on one of the most primitive levels of moral and logical thought, you're also an oppressive son of a bitch about it.

If there were a law against Jews going to Synagogue, you wouldn't say, "Considering they are doing it ILLEGALLY, I have ZERO sympathy for what happens to them."

I'll have ZERO sympathy for you if the time comes when someone slaps a blindfold across your face and cigarette in your mouth.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 3:15 AM. Reason : ]

1/26/2006 3:12:59 AM

fuck the farmers, they have been contributing to the downfall of this country since the beginning.

1/26/2006 5:46:25 AM

^^ Grumpy, for God's sake. We are not oppressive, immoral, or whatever. We simply feel that a country has the right to control the flow of foreigners into it. If Mexico decides tomorrow that they don't want American's coming around anymore, then I say so be it, that is their right.

And don't compare non-citizens to citizens. Our right to smoke is defended by 200 years of tradition, their right to enter this country whenever/wherever was revoked over 80 years ago. At this point, we have a tradition of requiring people to apply for immigration. Should we allow more in? Absolutely, but it is the right of the democratically elected government of the United States to cut off immigration all together, such an act actually has constitutional ground, so it isn't a crime against humanity that they try to limit it to an unreasonable low level.

What you are failing to realize is that in America there are spheres of decision making that are granted to the democratic government. They have the right to do certain things, and just because you disagree with the government doesn't make it unjust. Now, of course there are limits. When the legislature and courts start allowing unconstitutional shit then you have a point. The next FDA regulation I come across I'm going to ignore. But "anything the government does that is unjust MUST be ignored" is also wrong because it is just as much a moral absolute as you are accusing Protostar of being.

[Edited on January 26, 2006 at 10:02 AM. Reason : ,.,]

1/26/2006 10:01:18 AM

it doesn't bother me that they're here, it bothers me that we're wasting money by paying for them to get money, but at the same time paying to try and kick them out

1/26/2006 1:50:55 PM

WE NEED TO KEEP THEM OUT SO THEY DON'T TAKE OUR JOBS

1/26/2006 4:40:39 PM

Quote :

"They have the right to do certain things, and just because you disagree with the government doesn't make it unjust."

This government was founded on the premise that there are certain things it should not have the right to do, certain rights that belong to people.

Is there a more fundamental right than being able to seek prosperity and freedom? Or, beyond that, simply to move around?

If the government tried to regulate the movement of people between or within states, you'd shit a brick.

Quote :

"such an act actually has constitutional ground"

Could've said the same thing about slavery.

Quote :

"But "anything the government does that is unjust MUST be ignored" is also wrong because it is just as much a moral absolute"

First of all, I don't think an unjust law should be ignored, it should be actively fought.

Second of all, your statement is almost a direct refutation of the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and the founding of the republic.

1/26/2006 5:19:14 PM

Quote :

"Second of all, your statement is almost a direct refutation of the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and the founding of the republic."

Not exactly. Or are you comparing America's oppression of foreigners to Britain's oppression of its own citizens?

1/26/2006 9:54:27 PM

Quote :

"Not exactly."

Yes, exactly. The immigrants don't even enter into this part of the conversation.

The Declaration is essentially one long statement to the effect that men have to resist unjust laws.

Quote :

"Or are you comparing America's oppression of foreigners to Britain's oppression of its own citizens?"

Yes.

Freedom is a concept that is rather larger than national boundaries.

1/27/2006 12:42:43 AM

Quote :

"The Declaration is essentially one long statement to the effect that men have to resist unjust laws."

Hmm... don't make it out to be more radical than it actually is:

Quote :

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"

1/27/2006 9:17:18 AM

Quote :

"The comic booklet for migrants was distributed by the government in early 2005 and warned of the perils of crossing illegally into the United States, while offering tips to stay safe."

Who wrote this booklet? Jeff Gaither?

1/27/2006 10:24:14 AM

they need a real comic booklet of this shit

like some Calvin & Hobbes or something

but for immigrants

1/27/2006 12:49:33 PM

http://www.letxa.com/guiamigrante.php

1/27/2006 1:19:42 PM

Oh God, reading that page I came across a reference to "a war on illegal immigration"

1/27/2006 2:43:32 PM