has anybody in here used it before, a friend recommanded it for me, he said it can can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue and improve protein metabolism, given that i am trying to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

i have never taken any kind of non-natural product before, hell i have never even used Whey protien, so i am kind of uncertain.

then, i am planing on either

Plan A

Day 1: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio
Day 2: cardio 60 minutes
Day 3: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: cardio 60 minutes
Day 6: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio
Day 7: cardio 60 minutes
Day 8: Rest

and so on

Plan B

Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Rest
Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Lift(1 muscle group) + cardio 45 - 60 minutes
Rest

and so on


which one do u think would work better for bulding or not losing muscle and losing all the fat i have?

2/11/2006 12:06:02 PM

Unless you are a cancer patient or a burn victim or in your 80s it will do nil for you. Tell your friend he needs to study supplements more before he goes making recomendations on old standing beliefs that were perpetuated by the supplement industry so they could make a profit.

2/11/2006 12:09:35 PM

^ is there any product that u know of that can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue thats associated with weight loss? or even specifict training routines other than the two i listed

2/11/2006 12:11:33 PM

i would stick to plan a and maybe move the cardio to a day where you dont lift

you shouldnt lift 2 days in a row because it takes your nervous system 24 hours to recover from a day of lifting even if you lift different parts of the body.

as for the glutamine i take it for the sole purpose of heavy training breaks down your immune system and this helps to keep it going. i have lifted without it and got sick pretty often and now that i use it i rarely get sick. it wont perform miracles it just helps a little bit.

for supplements all i could really reccomend is creatine, whey, a multi-vitamin, and food.

oh and by the way it is very difficult to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time (at a pace you would like that is). if i was you i would either bulk or cut and then rotate.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2006 12:15:08 PM

Quote :

"for supplements all i could really reccomend is creatine, whey, a multi-vitamin, and food."

2/11/2006 12:19:11 PM

Quote :

"^ is there any product that u know of that can minimize the breakdown of muscle tissue thats associated with weight loss? or even specifict training routines other than the two i listed"

fat loss at the correct rate (1lb per week) + lifting + cardio + correct amount of protein (1g/lb).

Quote :

"i am trying to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time."

start taking steriods and GH. you are trying to do something that cannot be done without superb genetics. you must do it in phases. a phase for cutting, a phase for bulking.

Quote :

"Unless you are a cancer patient or a burn victim or in your 80s it will do nil for you."

this is mostly true. its not the answer.

Quote :

" i have never taken any kind of non-natural product before, hell i have never even used Whey protien, "

the idea of taking glutamine before considering whey is INSANE. take whey post work-out at the very LEAST. youll especially need it for muscle preservation when doing fat loss.

on the spectrum of presumed utility, whey falls far far above glutamine.



It other shocking news, it appears other people in this thread also know what they are talking about.

Quote :

"Day 1: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio Day 2: cardio 60 minutes Day 3: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio Day 4: Rest Day 5: cardio 60 minutes Day 6: Lift(2 muscle groups) + 30 minutes cardio Day 7: cardio 60 minutes Day 8: Rest"

this one.

DO NOT do both cardio and lifting on the same day. consider this.


Day 1: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 2: cardio 60 minutes
Day 3: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 4: cardio 60 minutes
Day 5: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 6: cardio 60 minutes
Day 7: Rest


[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 12:33 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 12:28:50 PM

Quote :

"It other shocking news, it appears other people in this thread also know what they are talking about."

dont worry im sure some people will chime in soon with no idea of what they are talking about

2/11/2006 12:35:18 PM

ok so L-glutamine is out of the question now

but there are two contradicting points of view in this thread

should I

A)
Day 1: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 2: cardio 60 minutes
Day 3: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 4: cardio 60 minutes
Day 5: Lift(2 muscle groups)
Day 6: cardio 60 minutes
Day 7: Rest

B) go on a month-to-month phase
one month cutting - cardio everyday
one month bulking - lifting + whey

or is more of a week to week thing?

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 12:38 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2006 12:36:18 PM

i dont think you really understand the concept of bulking and cutting

both you lift heavy and everything you just adjust your calorie intake for the most part. also cardio is not that important. diet is aboutt 85% of everything. i could go on but im sure someone else will hit the topics i didnt cover.

2/11/2006 12:38:36 PM

Phase lengths do vary. 1 week is too short. Consider at least one month.

Yes.

While cutting, use whey and lift for muscle preservation, but focus on cardio so as to increase your caloric expenditure. Consume a caloric defecit

While bulking, use whey amd lift heavy, lift intensily. Mix in cadio, but less then you did for bulking. Consume a caloric excess.

Pick one. Then alternate.


[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 12:43 PM. Reason : -]

2/11/2006 12:39:53 PM

thanks josh, ill start today with cutting, and ill start bulkin when i come back from spring break

hollarrr


P.S. which whey brand do u goes recommend?

2/11/2006 12:43:53 PM

I like Optimum Whey.

2/11/2006 12:45:11 PM

^ Just received a 10 lb bag of it yesterday.

2/11/2006 12:53:23 PM

i really like the tropical punch flavor of designer whey

it goes down really easy compared to a lot of the others i have tried

2/11/2006 12:58:57 PM

These threads are so fucking funny! Its not worth even commenting on some of the stuff that has been said in here. If you want real information find a real fitness message board.

2/11/2006 1:10:40 PM

all information in this thread is mostly 'real'.

2/11/2006 1:12:06 PM

god optimum is like the shittiest protein out there

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 1:21 PM. Reason : get vp2]

2/11/2006 1:21:11 PM

Optimum Whey is good, mixes well and tastes great!

2/11/2006 1:23:37 PM

whey isnt suppose to taste like ice cream. youre eating it for utility, not fun.

2/11/2006 1:27:25 PM

I like bulking during the winter since no one sees you naked anyways (cept if you have a girl, but mine doesnt mind).

I've been bulking since October and I've gone from 155 to 175 with minimal fat gain. I def. think it's better to do it for a longer period of time (months) and then start cutting. When you start to cut don't throw in cardio right away...just focus on a healthy diet and then when you feel like you can't possibly get your bf% lower with just the diet alone throw in some HIIT

OH and http://www.fitday.com
track your calories or whatever you're going for IS NOT GOING TO WORK...everyone seems to think tracking is stupid, but it really is the best way to make sure you're getting enough (or not too much) macros

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 3:43 PM. Reason : ]

2/11/2006 3:39:04 PM

god i cant wait till i start bulking in march. when you bulk, treats are practically mandatory. its like night and day compared to the discipline you need for cutting.

2/11/2006 4:17:26 PM

Quote :

"DO NOT do both cardio and lifting on the same day."

After being stubborn, I stopped all cardio on lifting days, and did exactly what Josh8315 was talking about for a routine, clearly separating lifting and running. I lost weight much faster, my mile times and 5K time shot up, and I got stronger at a faster rate.

Too much can be worse than too little.

[Edited on February 11, 2006 at 4:35 PM. Reason : .]

2/11/2006 4:35:24 PM

Ok well how about doing some fat burning the same day after i lift,
like on the rowing or elliptical machine, maintaining my heart rate in the "fat burning" zone

2/14/2006 11:05:43 AM

fat burning is cardio

don't do it

2/14/2006 11:08:06 AM

^^ lifting on its own gets your heart rate up, lifting on its own burns a ton of calories

2/14/2006 1:06:52 PM

If you're gonna do any cardio the day of, do it before you lift. After you lift you want to be taking in nutrients so your muscles can recover/build up, and doing cardio after will just deprive them of that opportunity. It is very hard to build muscle while performing a lot of aerobic activity, in college I'd lift 3-4 times a week but never improved much because I was running 10-12 miles every day. That's why you do bulking and cutting phases, you have to be putting on weight to gain significant muscle which involves putting on some fat. Then you try to maintain your muscle for a while and cut the fat down.

2/14/2006 1:07:07 PM

all that is very good info, but

Quote :

"If you're gonna do any cardio the day of, do it before you lift. "

JUST DONT DO IT. pick one. one.

2/14/2006 1:09:58 PM

This line still cracks me up...

Quote :

"i have never taken any kind of non-natural product before"

To me that says that the amino acid L-glutamine is non-natural

2/14/2006 1:23:13 PM

Quote :

"start taking steriods and GH. you are trying to do something that cannot be done without superb genetics. you must do it in phases. a phase for cutting, a phase for bulking. "

this is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard

have you ever heard of the more muscle you have the more energy you burn and with the right diet you will lose fat as you put on muscle

maybe i am am wrong and i have supreme genetics, which i prolly do anyway but this can be easily done

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 1:36 PM. Reason : you give some of the worst advice on this site]

2/14/2006 1:35:53 PM

Quote :

"and with the right diet you will lose fat as you put on muscle"

No, ive never heard that you can do that without superb genetics or high priced drugs. Almost all experts approach bodybuilding in phases. This isnt my creation, this is what just about everyone does, just about every proffesional bodybuilder does this.

Are you saying you put on your muscle mass by eating less then your maintinence calories? If so, the you are the tiny lucky minority, or youve been using prohormones or steroids.

I can back up anything I say with dozens of articles or studies at any moment upon request.



[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 1:44 PM. Reason : =]

2/14/2006 1:41:43 PM

I Bulk in the Fall and cutt in the Spring.

I've had no luck at all at gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time.

2/14/2006 1:54:25 PM

^^^

So how many calories do you eat per day? Protein?
What drugs/supplements do you take if any?

How long have you been both losing fat and gaining muscle? What did your bf% start at?

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 2:01 PM. Reason : -]

2/14/2006 1:59:37 PM

i dont count calories, i count carbs and protein, i intake very high amounts of protein (400g a day) and intake very little carbs, enough to supply

i have had piss tests done on this and i am not protein rich so i dont want to get into the fact that my body cant handle 400 grams of protein a day, cause it can and it does, yes some of it gets shit out but anyone that has too much protein in their diet will ultimately piss it out first

i would love to get into the debate and compare articles but i just dont have time today or any day for that matter, not on a website anyway, there was some thread long ago i posted like a million articles supporting this way of training too

and no i have never done steroids or prohormones to accomplish this

dont knock something till you try it just because your bodybuilder buddies dont do it, this kid isnt trying to be a bodybuilder, so obviously he method isnt gonna be the same

i just hope you arent a trainer cause whoever you train, you dont give them much hope, it can only be done this way and thats it mentality

Quote :

"I Bulk in the Fall and cutt in the Spring. I've had no luck at all at gaining muscle and losing fat at the same time."

you ever think it may be due to your lack of a diet conducive to this, it is pretty well known that carbs are your body's energy supply and what you dont use it stores as fat essentially at the end of the day (yes i know your body still needs some to function, so lets not try and call me out on some little fact), if you dont take carbs in your body is gonna look elswhere for energy, usually fat and even protein


i dont know about you but if you ever measure your BF % and it gets lower and your weight stays the same or increases, guess what you did right there?

again maybe it is me but i know of plenty of people that have done this right along with me

2/14/2006 2:02:26 PM

Quote :

"^^^ So how many calories do you eat per day? Protein? What drugs/supplements do you take if any? How long have you been both losing fat and gaining muscle? What did your bf% start at?"

calories i have no idea prolly well over 2500 i am sure

i take whey protein, glutamine, daily vitamin, L-carnatine, sometimes fish oil and the likes but not recently and eat lots of chicken, tuna, turkey, beef, anything high in protein

my highest body fat was around 9% weighing like 195-200 (HS time-1999)
my best body fat was around 4% weight around 217 (college-2001/02)

i am currently 200 and dont know my BF for sure, if i had to guess i am middle of the line 6% based on what i was at the above stages

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 2:08 PM. Reason : ]

2/14/2006 2:07:37 PM

Quote :

"it can only be done this way and thats it mentality"

i was very clear in saying that you need superb genetics

Quote :

"calories i have no idea prolly well over 2500 i am sure"

So it sounds like youre about 500 over maintinence. Building muscle on this kind of diet is expected. You claimed youve lost fat lbs? But you havent backed that up. Lets examine.

Quote :

"my highest body fat was around 9% weighing like 195-200 my best body fat was around 4% weight around 217"

Thats great progress. but bodyfat precent and bodyfat are two different things. your % went down, but did your total amount of fat stay the same? it doesnt look like it. do you know what your LBM and fat mass was at each of those weighs?

it looks to me like youve gained muscle and decreased your bf%, but there has been no appreciable loss in the amount of fat on your body. which is exactly what i though was the case. also, has your diet been exactly the same? did you ever go thru weeks where you ate less or more?


many people want to lose fat lbs, and gain muscle lbs. you cant lose fat without eating a hypocaloric diet. im sorry, just about nobody can do it. addiding excersize to a hypocaloric diet is great, but it doesnt mean then you can eat over your maintinence calorie amount and expect to burn fat.


[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 2:21 PM. Reason : -]

2/14/2006 2:14:57 PM

Quote :

"i was very clear in saying that you need superb genetics "

ok fair enough but whats to say this guy doesnt have it, either way fair enough

Quote :

"Thats great progress. but bodyfat precent and bodyfat are two different things. your % went down, but did your total amount of fat stay the same? it doesnt look like it. do you know what your LBM was at each of those weighs? it looks to me like youve gained muscle and decreased your bf%, but there has been no appreciable loss in the amount of fat on your body. which is exactly what i though was the case."

bro if i had pictures i could back it up, it is damn well clear to me that i lost fat, there was barely anything on my body but muscle, dont get nitpicky here and try and call me out on some numbers on the page that you can find a loophole in the discussion

you couldnt pinch a millimeter on my body, ok thats a lie, but you get the idea

point is i know i lost body fat it doesnt take rocket science to figure this out, i was more cut, trimmer and leaner, yes there are plenty of other things that can also give this impression, but i am telling you the fat was gone and muscle replaced it, i have plenty of guys i worked out with, but i really dont want to get into it, you can either believe me or not

2/14/2006 2:23:59 PM

Ok, I do believe you. I was waiting for you to say that you were sure that you visibly saw less fat in areas of your body.

Like I said, people like you are the minority.

You are sure you have always eaten the same caloric amount? Never periods of less calories?

Are you sure your friends do this? Do they take any prohormones or steriods?


[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 2:32 PM. Reason : 0]

2/14/2006 2:25:55 PM

I am taking L-glutamine...

but that is because I am dying.

2/14/2006 3:04:01 PM

I don't know if I've "lost fat and added muscle" before...but I've lost weight and gotten stronger (which I would assume is the same thing).

Last semester of my senior year in college I was running and swimming at least 3 or 4 days a week and lifting around 3 days a week. My bench jumped 15 pounds from 270 to 285 and my weight dropped from about 155 to 147-48ish (I fluctuated between 145 and 150). My diet was basically all protein, shakes in the morning and at night. Mainly meat and vegetables at night with high carbs either in the morning or for breakfast. Best physical shape I've ever been in. I'm trying to get back to that right now, but I don't have access to a fucking pool so I'm running more.

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 3:32 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2006 3:32:15 PM

Quote :

"(which I would assume is the same thing)."

not the same. getting stronger doesnt always mean more mass. usually it is.

[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 3:43 PM. Reason : -]

2/14/2006 3:43:01 PM

GOD DAMN YOU NIGGERS SOUND LIKE ARNOLD FUCKING SWARTSENIGGER.

2/14/2006 3:51:35 PM

Quote :

"Ok, I do believe you. I was waiting for you to say that you were sure that you visibly saw less fat in areas of your body. Like I said, people like you are the minority. You are sure you have always eaten the same caloric amount? Never periods of less calories? Are you sure your friends do this? Do they take any prohormones or steriods? "

i am sure there are periods where i am less and a lot more, i dont keep that much of a track record of it as most may, i do know my protein intake stays the same

as for friends, no i cannot say they are not taking things cause i am not with them 24/7, but if i had to make an educated guess, i would say no cause i have seen their diets and how hard they work

Quote :

"GOD DAMN YOU NIGGERS SOUND LIKE ARNOLD FUCKING SWARTSENIGGER."

stfu hippie

2/14/2006 4:02:00 PM

I PUMP.... U UP

2/14/2006 11:43:07 PM