Wonderful news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4705740.stm


Finally, someone has the backbone to kick the Christian lock stepping DeathWorshipers to the curb. RELIGION seeking to deny basic human services for those who refuse to lock step with their CULT OF HATE!! If they were truly "loving and tolerant" they would provide human services to ALL regardless of belief. Once again, another instance which exposes Christianity for what it really is: DEATHWORSHIP!!!!


Best news I've read all day.

[Edited on February 12, 2006 at 11:57 PM. Reason : ..]

2/12/2006 11:57:22 PM

not bad Chavez, not bad.

2/13/2006 12:00:14 AM

kudos to Chavez!

2/13/2006 12:02:52 AM

Quote :

"The group says in return for agreeing to adopt the Christian faith, the indigenous people receive basic health care and literacy classes. "

sigh. bribing people to change their religion.

and Protostar, what is with you and the phrase "lock step?" Seriously, dude, get a thesaurus.

2/13/2006 12:08:51 AM

pop locking > lock stepping

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:12 AM. Reason : word g]

2/13/2006 12:10:39 AM

and block rocking > pop locking

someone embed some chemical brothers

2/13/2006 12:36:42 AM

i dunno about that one, when a trained pro gets to poppin' and lockin', well its tough to beat ok

but you're probably right

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:55 AM. Reason : ...on average]

2/13/2006 12:54:36 AM

You make very valid points, sir.

Anyway, I'm retiring to bed to read some Kierkegaard and worship death.

See you folks tommorow

2/13/2006 12:58:07 AM

Quote :

"and Protostar, what is with you and the phrase "lock step?" Seriously, dude, get a thesaurus."

thats all i thought about when i read this thread. ill do my best to quote some luda.

there might be some pop lockin,
if your girl's tops dropping,
but gonna watch for cock blocking,
on my coochie stock options.

2/13/2006 9:37:31 AM

Typical communist. Not only is Chavez denying his own people the freedom of religion through his outlandish claims but this missionary group offered basic health care and literacy classes.

That's the leftist mantra, sadly - keep 'em stupid so they'll be easier to control.

2/13/2006 9:47:25 AM

omg, b/c small indigenous tribes in the rainforest are a huge voting bloc that must be kept ignorant.

converting these people to christianity is like putting a giant spoiler and a body kit on a ferrarri. it changes something special and somewhat unique in this world into something generic and bland.

2/13/2006 9:51:40 AM

not to mention how is very basic literacy going to affect the government. it isnt like jungle ppl get the paper.

2/13/2006 9:54:51 AM

^ That's right, screw the needs of those insignificant little pukes!11!! We all know that the evil United States were using these missionaries who were brainwashing these people so they could overthrow Chavez from the backwaters of Venezuela!!11!!

How dare they have access to basic health care or learn how to read or shudder learn about Christianity.

2/13/2006 9:56:40 AM

im sure they were doing terribly before wishing that they had someone to beleive in and read, despite the fact they have little to no need for it.

you ever think they might have been happy in their own lifestyle. im sure they know there are cities if they really wanted to move out and try to adapt.

2/13/2006 10:03:06 AM

i hate the way people try to enforce their own ideas of happiness onto others when it's primarily a personal phenomenon. the western idea of happiness itself comes with a whole host of problems.

i think the buddhists probably have found the optimal path to happiness but i am too much of a douchebag in real life to ever pursue it.

2/13/2006 10:11:25 AM

Quote :

"i think the buddhists probably have found the optimal path to happiness"

By believing in a chain of rebirth and that desire causes suffering? Buddhism is idiocy.

2/13/2006 10:38:33 AM

out of the big five i think buddhism has the best chance of making you personally happy in this lifetime. but i don't subscribe to any of them so its irrelevant to me.

2/13/2006 10:43:54 AM

Quote :

"Buddhism is idiocy."

Because you aren't a Buddhist. You think they are sitting around saying that Christianity seems really plausible, but hey, fuck them. Everyone thinks that every religion but their own is idiotic, hello middle east.

2/13/2006 10:45:28 AM

not to align myself with the "OMG COMMIESBLAHBLAHBLAH" crowd like that one guy up there...

but this is a very stupid if not horrible thing to do. Chavez is a moron.

2/13/2006 10:52:20 AM

^ You see, that's what I'm talking about. You could have said the 2nd part without saying the 1st.

There are plenty of things that Chavez is doing in Venezuela which are very disturbing, such as taking over their media, nationalizing industry, paranoid attacks on freedom of religion, etc.

2/13/2006 10:54:36 AM

nationalizing industry (as long as you compensate) isnt really damaging in my opinion. it can work if managed correctly (see: most oil rich countries, northern europe).

but the media control and now this is pretty much just begging to be sanctioned. wtg, moron

Get ready for summer: Mexico's elections are coming, and theyve got a Chaves backed candidate.

2/13/2006 11:00:33 AM

Quote :

"out of the big five i think buddhism has the best chance of making you personally happy in this lifetime."

The big five have no chance at me. I'm also already personally happy in this (my only) lifetime, in part because I realize that truth doesn't come from sitting beside trees and rivers.

Quote :

"You think they are sitting around saying that Christianity seems really plausible"

I gave up Christianity in middle school.

2/13/2006 11:03:19 AM

^you seem to be trying to start an argument where none exists. i certainly didn't say that it was the only or even the best out of all possible ways.

2/13/2006 11:06:50 AM

Quote :

"keep 'em stupid so they'll be easier to control"

im curious what your take is on the actions of SOA trained forces in the various South American countries

2/13/2006 11:14:59 AM

Quote :

"Quote : "The group says in return for agreeing to adopt the Christian faith, the indigenous people receive basic health care and literacy classes. " sigh. bribing people to change their religion."

i didn't see where the link said that. it says:

Quote :

"Their goal is to find tribes untouched by Western culture in order to convert them to Christianity. So far New Tribes representatives have been preaching to 12 different indigenous groups here in Venezuela. The group says it gives indigenous people basic health care and literacy classes. "

doesn't say it only gives to the converts.

and too i think this is more of a move to get americans out of venezuela rather than christians.

Quote :

"President Hugo Chavez has repeatedly called for the expulsion of the New Tribes Mission, saying they are American imperialists. "

2/13/2006 12:29:37 PM

Quote :

"The New Tribes Mission says it has not received official notification of the deadline, and it is awaiting clarification."

Awesome, they're essentially yelling "LALALALALALAWECAN'THEARYOULALALALALALA" with their fingers in their ears.

2/13/2006 12:32:16 PM

on a related note, how much would somebody have to pay you to switch religions (or, if none, to adopt a religion)? how about to have gay sex?

2/13/2006 12:36:15 PM

Is that a proposal?

2/13/2006 12:37:53 PM

Quote :

"doesn't say it only gives to the converts."

Queti, imagine you came from a society that was "untouched by Western culture," and then one day some people came and gave you candy, clothes, books, board games, deodorant, toothpaste, CocaCola, etc...

Just imagine what your reaction might be, what you might believe about Christianity, how you would consider conversion, etc...

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:39 PM. Reason : sss]

2/13/2006 12:39:17 PM

i would be pissed if they stole my soul with a mirror or camera and probably try to kill them

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:41 PM. Reason : (to get my soul back)]

2/13/2006 12:40:52 PM

^^ you know... lots of cultures have those things and still dont convert to christianity

oh and
http://www.ntm.org/about/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tribes_Mission

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:48 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 12:42:32 PM

^^^So now "being charitable" equals "bribing people to abandon their culture?"

Give me a fucking break.

2/13/2006 12:46:55 PM

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, GUYS. I DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING CONTROVERSIAL OR MAKE ANY POINTS IN MY STATEMENT. I JUST INVITED QUETI TO IMAGINE ANOTHER POINT OF VIEW.

I MADE NO ARGUMENTS ON PURPOSE.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:50 PM. Reason : sss]

2/13/2006 12:48:25 PM

NTM does seem to have some criticism for questionable, overzealous tactics
at least thats how it seems from googling

2/13/2006 12:48:57 PM

^^WELL LEADING-ASS QUESTIONS SURE DON'T COUNT FOR THAT

NO SIREE

2/13/2006 12:50:30 PM

Quote :

"Criticism and controversy [edit] NTM beliefs and methods The beliefs of the New Tribes Mission include "word by word inspiration," the "imminent ... pretribulation and pre-millenial return" of Jesus: "We are not ecumenical, charismatic or neo-evangelical." They also believe "in the fall of man, resulting in his complete and universal separation from God and his need of salvation"; those who die unsaved go to "unending punishment."[3] Survival International and other critics have accused the New Tribes Mission of using criminal tactics in their zeal to convert indigenous populations, including armed manhunts, kidnappings, selling them into forced labour, imprisonment in Mission camps, and even genocide. (Lewis pp. 127 and 177; see also [4]) In Paraguay in 1979 and 1986, the New Tribes Mission was accused of assisting in the forcible contact of nomadic Ayoreo Indians, whose unsuccessful attempts to remain in the forest led to several deaths. Others died soon after being brought out of the forest.[5][6][7][8] New Tribes Mission was also accused of assisting in policies of the dictator Stroessner against the indigenous population.[9] A letter of protest signed by Bishop Trevor Huddleston, Lord Avebury, Chairman of the Parliamentary Human Rights Group, Rabbi Richard Rosen and Survival International President, Robin Hanbury-Tenison, called on the Mission to halt its supposed controversial activities and respect tribal religion and culture. (Lewis 1988, p. 221) Eco-Action.org alleges that New Tribes Mission does not care about the welfare of the peoples they convert to their religion and that their aims and methods include not only religious conversion, but also to force them into settlements, camps or reservations, completely change their way of life, and integrate them into market economy by introducing money, US-American consumer goods and cash crops.[10] Paul Gifford accuses NTM of engaging in industrial espionage (p. 202) and representing US foreign policy interests in countries where they are active (p. 205). Because of their methods in Latin America, NTM has been investigated by the all-party Parliamentary Human Rights Committee in Britain. (Gifford, p. 114) [edit] Recent controversy in Venezuela In October 2005, the BBC reported that Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez had announced his intention to expel the New Tribes Mission from Venezuela. He accused the New Tribes Mission of imperialism, of violating Venezuela's national sovereignty, and of violating the country's laws by making unauthorised flights into and out of the country. He also attacked the group for building lavish camps in which to live next to poverty-stricken villages.[11] Responding to the allegations, NTM said, "Any kind of air travel we do, we always do within the guidelines of what the government allows. We always file reports." With respect to "luxury" living, they "live in homes that make it possible for them to continue the work that they do. The homes that they live in are very simple."[12] Chávez announced that he had not yet signed the order, but was giving the NTM "time to gather their stuff." According to the AP, on November 3rd, 2005, nearly 3,000 Venezuelan tribal people marched in Puerto Ayacucho protesting against the expulsion of NTM. [13], uncut version - [14] [edit"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tribes_Mission#Criticism_and_controversy

2/13/2006 12:51:31 PM

The seriousness of the allegation is always more important than the actual evidence.

2/13/2006 12:55:39 PM

i dont know who that point is directed at
if it was mine i was just reporting what i found on google, and the links have their sources (i.e. evidence)

oh and

"im curious what your take is on the actions of SOA trained forces in the various South American countries"

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 12:57 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 12:56:55 PM

The SOA's goal is "to provide professional education and training" while "promoting democratic values, respect for human rights, and knowledge and understanding of United States customs and traditions."

The SOA, or the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, trains latin american military personnel.

A lot of controversy that surrounds them took place during the Cold War with accusations regarding to torture, death squads, etc. Do I believe that the SOA taught them these tactics? No, I don't. Somebody can have all of the training in the world but what somebody does with that knowledge is their own decision.

2/13/2006 1:12:48 PM

Any restriction of a religion is bad...

But given the history of European and American missionaries in Latin America (1492-2005), I can hardly blame him for being wary of them.

Also, when you distinguish yourselves from other fundies based largely on when exactly during the literal interpretation of Revelations Jesus will come and rapture you up to heaven (pretribulation and pre-millenial), you're at the wackiest tier of Christianity.

^ Ah-haa. Thank you for making it so easy for me to dismiss all your opinions as dumb.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 1:18 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 1:16:40 PM

Quote :

"^ Ah-haa. Thank you for making it so easy for me to dismiss all your opinions as dumb."

pretty much what i was thinking

2/13/2006 1:26:56 PM

I have to say Protostar is being a douche for always associating Christianity with DeathWorship^TM. And on being a Chavez bitch, just admit it Protostar, you're a fucking Communist. I'm guessing you're a Stalinst, so go ahead and grow a nice bushy mustache like Comrade Stalin, mkay?

Then again, this group doesn't appear to be the most righteous in their approach, so I guess you could say they're getting what they deserve for not following God's will.

2/13/2006 1:29:19 PM

Quote :

"i didn't see where the link said that. it says:"

It appears that the BBC story has been edited. It used to say what I quoted, "The group says in return for agreeing to adopt the Christian faith, the indigenous people receive basic health care and literacy classes." but now has been changed to what you quoted.

2/13/2006 2:04:55 PM

i'm serious

if i was at a meeting or library or something

and heard this protostar kid talking like he talks on tww

i'd be like "what the fuck, people like you exist?"

2/13/2006 2:07:29 PM

OHES NOES!!! I AGREE WITH A SOCIALIST ON AN ISSUE SO I MUST BE A COMMUNIST!!11!!


Chavez is a socialist. I hate socialism. I disagree with his economic policies but agree with him on this. RELIGION is a Thought-Virus that must be purged from the collective conscience of humanity. It would be fine if people kept their nonsensical beliefs to themselves, but since the RELIGIOUS (particularly the "loving, tolerant" Christians) insist on forcing it on others, they must be fought at all costs on all fronts. "Loving, tolerant" Christians have a rich history of going to south american countries (and everywhere else) and doing unspeakable things in order to civilize the "savages" and convert them to their CULT OF HATE. These people were probably perfectly happy in their existence in the rain forest, before the "Loving, tolerant" Christians had to barge in with their DeathWorship.

Quote :

"It appears that the BBC story has been edited. It used to say what I quoted, "The group says in return for agreeing to adopt the Christian faith, the indigenous people receive basic health care and literacy classes." but now has been changed to what you quoted."

Apperantly it was done to hide the "Loving, tolerant" Christians practice of denying basic human services to those who refuse to have anything to do with their DeathWorship. I don't blame those who don't. I'd rather die of starvation with maggots eating away at my flesh, than to accept their "assistance" and bow down before their bland god.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 3:05 PM. Reason : ..]

2/13/2006 3:04:46 PM

...reprobate mind...

2/13/2006 4:40:38 PM

A THOUGHT VIRUS

2/13/2006 4:57:53 PM

its scary cause i dont think he's trolling

2/13/2006 5:01:00 PM

Quote :

"A lot of controversy that surrounds them took place during the Cold War with accusations regarding to torture, death squads, etc. Do I believe that the SOA taught them these tactics? No, I don't. Somebody can have all of the training in the world but what somebody does with that knowledge is their own decision."

i read an actual testamony from a former instructor at the school, according to him they engage in shady tactics. basically, the soa equips them with all they need to eradicate unions, people opposed to cia-backed groups, and in some cases, even clergy who oppose said cia-backed groups. ignoring possible wrongdoings by simply giving a us-backed group the benefit of the doubt is not a good tactic to employ. you just made yourself look like a cheerleader, not a critcal thinker. did the soa cause all this for certain? im not positive, but based on accounts from the nicaraguan revolution in the 80s and the colombian crisis of the 90s i studied last summer, its very probable that death squads trained by the us not only fought the gov. and drug lords, but also attempted to eradicate unions and clergy who objected to them.

if you really want to know whats up with these groups, dr. moxley in rural soc. here at state knows quite a bit. he used to teach at the land grant university in nicaragua. talking to him and reading up on state dept. reports/un fact finding missions changed my mind on the soa. theyre training latin americas worst. just ask Manuel Noriega, an SOA grad.

oh, and congrats Chaves. according to NPR, you just got yourself scheduled for a little Radio Free Europe Venezuela, along with Iran and Afganistan. What great company.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 5:14 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2006 5:11:18 PM

i can introduce you to a woman who's close friends (who were also nuns) were raped and murdered by SOA trained criminals, she has an office on hillsborough street if you would like to share your views about the SOA.

2/13/2006 5:15:47 PM