http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/02/20/D8FSTISG0.html

Quote :

"Irving, 67, has been in custody since his November arrest on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews. He has contended that most of those who died at concentration camps such as Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution. A verdict was expected later Monday, with a conviction almost certain because of Irving's guilty plea. He faces up to 10 years in prison under the 1992 law, which applies to "whoever denies, grossly plays down, approves or tries to excuse the National Socialist genocide or other National Socialist crimes against humanity in a print publication, in broadcast or other media.""

Yes, this guy is a douche for denying the holocaust, but facing up to 10 years of prison for having an ill-formed opinion? Craziness.

2/20/2006 10:51:24 AM

agreed, this is ridiculous.

2/20/2006 11:44:18 AM

Oh dear, I may actually agree with Wlfpk4Life

2/20/2006 11:44:42 AM

obviously you've never been to austria or Germany. The law is there for a very damned good reason. I support the ruling.

2/20/2006 11:53:31 AM

^ yo

check pm

2/20/2006 11:58:13 AM

^^ Which is?

Not to mention, it has been illegal for quite some time. Might there be some truth in the theory that making it illegal has merely driven believers into the shadows where they cannot be illuminated by the light of truth?

2/20/2006 12:45:25 PM

What good reason could there be for that?
There's nothing wrong with being an idiot. You should be able to deny whatever you want.

As for me, I'm convinced there were no indians here until 1957, when they all showed up and started demanding land that they never had, because they were in Japan until then.

Who the fuck cares? It isn't a criminal offense to be stupid, even if you are a douche as well.

2/20/2006 12:51:01 PM

thanks for bashing all of europe when really its more of an issue thats limited to certain sensitive areas where they go crazy over this stuff. its ridiculous to send a guy to prison for it, but pointing the finger at all of europe is no different than condemning all muslims over the terrorist actions of a few.

this is old news, btw.

oh, and just because the title brings into question freedom of the press, here's the most recent Worldwide Press Freedom Index. Quite interesting:

http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=554

2/20/2006 1:27:01 PM

Oh man, Salisburyboy loved David Irving. I'm all for unrestricted freedom of speech, but Irving is a complete moron.

2/20/2006 2:17:29 PM

THIS HAS NEVER EVER BEEN MENTIONED

2/20/2006 2:33:35 PM

^ I didn't talk about it and that's all that counts.

^^ All of Europe pretty much sucks.

2/20/2006 4:12:30 PM

we can condemn europe as a single entity, b/c we are all bashed by southern baptists in the middle of podung alabama.... doin something stupid.... i feel justified

2/20/2006 4:33:54 PM

^^have you even been outside the US, or are you just saying that b/c you're still mad over the whole Iraq BS (which a good deal of them participated in anyway)? Did you even look at the Freedom of Press stats? You can say its a nice place w/o losing your "Hooray for the USA" cred.

Seriously, I know a girl who interviewed a bunch of those protest warriors one time when he was reporting for the Durham Herald-Sun on an anti-war rally, and they all wanted Europe to be bombed and fall into the ocean, and they didnt really have a reason why aside from "some of them (ie: Germany and France) didnt like us going to Iraq"

^i really dont even get what thats supposed to mean.


V morally bankrupt? and youre supposed to be some bastion of morality i guess? cause i mean, otherwise you wouldnt be judging them, would you? And once again, youre confusing France w/ the rest of Europe. Most of northern Europe has a freer market than the US (Britain, Ireland, and even tho they have the dreaded SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE OF DOOM, Scandinavia).

Your judging of their morals is laughable, Mr. Morality.

Take that plank out of your eye.


where do you get your info on the EU anyway? You seem to have an abnormal disdain for them.

PS: i cant wait to get over to Ireland once this semester is over

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 5:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 5:11:00 PM

Considering that most European nations are morally bankrupt, the influx of radical muslims into the region, their system of government that promotes laziness and punishes success, I'd say there's quite a lot to dislike about Europe.

2/20/2006 5:13:33 PM

which wlpk guy are you, i get you two mixed up?

2/20/2006 5:14:33 PM

The one you call daddy.

2/20/2006 5:16:29 PM

went to England once, shitty weather.

2/20/2006 5:17:10 PM

oh not the smarter one, gotcha

i was just gonna make a point about how its kinda contradictory to say that an area is morally bankrupt and has an influx of muslims. but it would be pointless so im not going to go there

2/20/2006 5:18:44 PM

^ Thanks for leaving off the "radical" part, JonStrawmanGuth.

2/20/2006 5:19:58 PM

oh i thought it was understood there was also an infulx of normal muslims
sorry, i often assume too much from people

2/20/2006 5:20:52 PM

^^care to comment on your judging of others morals, and why you are justified to do so?

seems that France is the only country having violent protests lately thanks to this influx of radicals. most other euro muslims have been holding peaceful protests in europe.

[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 5:24 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 5:22:08 PM

If that's the case you'd only be arguing with yourself because nobody said anything about your assumed normal muslims.

2/20/2006 5:22:47 PM

yeah, this is why i chose not to make that point

2/20/2006 5:24:02 PM

so i guess we arent getting an explanation as to why europe is so "morally bankrupt" and punishing the successful people.

i mean, last i checked their economy was pretty strong. i guess its wrong to try to provide more services to your constituency b/c you can afford to due to your general high standard of living.

never mind that all of europe isnt even like that.

i guess we're just going to argue about the inclusion/disclusion of a word in a sentence then.



[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 5:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 5:42:32 PM

Quote :

"^^care to comment on your judging of others morals, and why you are justified to do so?"

And this is coming from a guy who threw a hissy fit in the sports section because people called uncch a bunch of gays, judging them as morons.

2/20/2006 5:47:50 PM

oh, ok

for a second there i thought you might want to answer the question. i didnt realize we were going to talk about me insulting people for using juvenile insults. cause, you know, i thought i was just stating the obvious, that its immatue and lacks creativity.

im sure someone in their late 20s would know whats mature, right?

now go ahead and turn this back on me and dodge the europe discussion again like you've been doing.



[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 5:57 PM. Reason : what the hell is breitbart.com anyway?]

2/20/2006 5:55:23 PM

When KISS toured Germany, they weren't allowed to have the "SS" style S's in their name.





[Edited on February 20, 2006 at 6:21 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2006 6:20:41 PM

well if you were in Canada, you couldn't laugh at the gay people.

It's getting redicurrus.

2/20/2006 6:25:10 PM

it appears that the guy who made this thread is dodging most of the argument here.
especially that link that shows that most european countries have a freer press than the US or Canada.
i think he just dropped that argument and went into a tangent on why europe sucks according to him.

2/20/2006 7:02:41 PM

bitches

2/20/2006 7:56:25 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/02/20/austria.irving.trial.ap/index.html


Freedom of speech is burning.

2/20/2006 8:24:55 PM

Quote :

"Sun Online 2/20/2006 GERMAN cops will use sweeping powers to collar England fans doing Basil Fawlty-style Hitler impressions at the World Cup. Yobs will be instantly banged up for TWO WEEKS if they goose-step like John Cleese in his most famous Fawlty Towers scene. And hard core louts who give Nazi salutes — like the one jokingly made by Michael Barrymore in Celebrity Big Brother — could be hauled before a judge within 24 hours. If convicted of inciting hatred they will face jail terms of up to THREE YEARS. Wearing joke German helmets or any offensive insignia will also result in a stretch behind bars. The crackdown was revealed by police in Nuremberg, where England will play Trinidad and Tobago in a first-round World Cup match on June 15. The city is particularly sensitive to World War II jibes. Its gleaming World Cup stadium stands in the shadow of the parade ground used for Hitler’s notorious Nazi rallies in the 1930s. "

2/20/2006 11:39:31 PM

so...........dont go to germany.

2/20/2006 11:40:29 PM

^^does that include throwing bananas at players?

2/20/2006 11:49:10 PM

the sun is always reliable

2/20/2006 11:51:02 PM

This is crazy, but in no way is it new.

2/21/2006 12:27:13 AM

Quote :

"i mean, last i checked their economy was pretty strong. i guess its wrong to try to provide more services to your constituency b/c you can afford to due to your general high standard of living."

Well, Waluigi, you are wrong. The unemployment rate in Europe is roughly double what it is here in the United States.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&refer=europe&sid=as0vGJBvnMGM

Quote :

"so i guess we arent getting an explanation as to why europe is so "morally bankrupt" and punishing the successful people."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005%2D02%2D21%2Dgod%2Deurope%5Fx.htm

Plus, countries like Germany and the Netherlands have legalized prostitution (I'm sure there are others).

2/21/2006 12:22:10 PM

OH NOES, HOOKERS!!!1@

2/21/2006 12:29:37 PM

NEVADA!!!!!!!!!!

NO MORALS!

2/21/2006 12:35:12 PM

^^^

Quote :

"Well, Waluigi, you are wrong. The unemployment rate in Europe is roughly double what it is here in the United States."

from the article you posted:

Quote :

" In December, Germany had the second highest unemployment rate after Spain among the 12 countries that share the euro, at 10 percent on a comparable basis. The rate in France was 9.7 percent. In the U.K., the latest available comparable rate is 4.6 percent for October."

so Germany and Spain are experiencing trouble with unemployment right now, as is France. Suddenly this means that all of Europe has a rate 2x as much as the US? I mean, it even says right there that the UK is below our most recent unemployment rate.

Some other EU rates, using non-former Eastern Bloc countries, who are still trying to dig out (from 2005):
Austria: 5.1%
Denmark: 5.7%
Finland: 7.9%
Ireland: 4.2%
Luxemborg: 3.7%
The Netherlands: 6.7%
Norway (not EU currently, but still in same region): 4.2%
Sweden: 6%
Switzeland (also not EU, but greatly involved in regional economy): 3.8%

The EU-wide rate is at 9.4% for 2005, much of this due to outliers in the larger economies of France and Germany, who I agree are not going about handling this in the right way (evident in last year's German elections). The 9.4% figure also includes Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, and the Czech Republic, all former Eastern Bloc countries who are just now starting to right the economic ship.

Oh yeah, and the US rate is at 5.1% right now. (all this data coming from http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html)


Now on to the morality issue (hooo boy):

You claim (based on the article) that a secularized Europe is morally bankrupt.

Are you saying that a European Union, encompassing both Christian and Muslim strongholds (they might bring in Turkey as a member by 2010, even), should not be more secularized?

I mean, as long as your freedom to worship whoever you want, however you want (or abstain from doing so) is not hindered, is there a problem?

Are you somehow trying to judge the decline in churchgoers as some kind of "lost souls" issue? I mean, I really don't see what puts you in a position to judge others religious morality.

And as for prostitution, simple answer: Personally I'd legalize it and tax the hell out of it to finance our defecit, but thats just me. I think keeping taxes low and financing the defecit through other means which don't burden the population (ie: sin taxes, user fees) is a pretty good way to finance that defecit. I mean, I'm a fiscal centrist, but a low imcome tax should be maintained and can be done so by getting money from other places that dont burden the individual.

[Edited on February 21, 2006 at 3:15 PM. Reason : .]

2/21/2006 3:08:58 PM

Quote :

"I really don't see what puts you in a position to judge others religious morality."

It's Wlfpk4Life's hobby.

2/21/2006 3:16:18 PM

but but but...........europeans smell.

2/21/2006 3:16:49 PM

^hey man, leave us Irish out of that

2/21/2006 3:25:39 PM

more on the Irving trial:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/02/21/freedom_on_trial.html#more

its interesting that this comes so soon after another controversial issue on freedom of speech in europe (ie: the Mohammed cartoons). So those get printed in papers around the world in the name of free speech, while this man is jailed?

Uh oh, maybe salisburyboy was onto something...

2/21/2006 4:48:51 PM

I met David Irving in April of last year-- he gave a talk in Cary and spoke about the importance of primary sources in research and pointed out that many historians these days are lazy and just take another historian's word for things without consulting primary sources, ESPECIALLY in the case of WWII 'research.' He also spoke of validating primary sources, as there are many that throughout history have been found to be faked, but it took quite a while to get the people citing them to realize/admit that their research had been based on a forgery.

It was one of the most intelligent talks that I've been to and he was a very kind, polite man who knew what he was talking about. I am deeply saddened that he's been jailed.

2/21/2006 6:02:36 PM

Those academic elites are always trying to cover up the truth.

2/21/2006 6:36:00 PM

Quote :

"I mean, as long as your freedom to worship whoever you want, however you want (or abstain from doing so) is not hindered, is there a problem?"

I agree with this, let's see if Europe does as well. A man just took a Priest to court in Italy for saying that Jesus Christ existed, and the court granted to hear the case. The case will wind up before the EU's high court when it is all said and done.

The EU has made great strides to exclude any mention of the Almighty, so we'll see just how free people are to worship after this case.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/22/christ.book.ap/

Quote :

"Are you somehow trying to judge the decline in churchgoers as some kind of "lost souls" issue? I mean, I really don't see what puts you in a position to judge others religious morality."

Mortality is judged on religious grounds, not that I'm saying who is an atheist cannot have morals, but those who readily dismiss their religion and everything it stands for make themselves a part of this world, which means that they are more proned to be selfish, self-consumed, less caring for others, generally hopeless, unhappy, resentful, bitter, angry, more likely to engage in deviant activities, et. al. Since far less people in Europe even believe in the basics of morality that their forefathers did (love, hope, faith) they have no choice but to become morally bankrupt.

[Edited on February 21, 2006 at 8:07 PM. Reason : ]

2/21/2006 7:51:20 PM

Quote :

"love, hope, faith"

funny, none of my friends from across the pond don't have those traits. probably some of the better people ive known. also, these really dont seem like characteristics america can claim the high ground on, i mean, we do still use the death penalty, and we're still trying to wrap up a war fought due to faulty intelligence (and other unclear reasons, i mean, we sure as hell didnt go for the sole purpose of liberating). are we not a secular government? i mean, if we wrote our constitution today, i doubt anyone aside from the far right would be pushing for a god-centered document. thats just the difference between people now and people then. seems to me the only difference here is that the US has more christian fundamentalists who try to hold up this illusion that we are the "city on the hill".

I mean, based on personal experience, I think youre making a lot out of nothing here, and judging by your previous responses, you seem to be picking and choosing instances which back up your initial claims, b/c you have some deep rooted, irrational hatred of another group of people w/o actually knowing much about them *shrugs*

youre not keeping a "things i can attack europe for other than the fact that they didnt all support my war" list are you?

[Edited on February 21, 2006 at 9:44 PM. Reason : .]

2/21/2006 9:41:06 PM

Irrational hatred...not quite. More like sadness and pity. Lots of miracles with the Blessed Virgin have taken place in Europe (Our Lady of Lourdes and Fatima, for instance) and they still turn away from their faith in droves.

I never claimed America was perfect either, although our fundamental respect for the practice of religion is grounded into our culture, not so much in Europe.

2/21/2006 9:45:49 PM

Quote :

"Mortality is judged on religious grounds, not that I'm saying who is an atheist cannot have morals, but those who readily dismiss their religion and everything it stands for make themselves a part of this world, which means that they are more proned to be selfish, self-consumed, less caring for others, generally hopeless, unhappy, resentful, bitter, angry, more likely to engage in deviant activities, et. al. Since far less people in Europe even believe in the basics of morality that their forefathers did (love, hope, faith) they have no choice but to become morally bankrupt."

Wlfpk4Life, I'm concerned that you aren't really thinking things through. Every single word of that post is nonsense.

2/21/2006 9:50:23 PM